Ep. 140 - Triangulation: How Loved Ones Get Stuck in Toxic Relationship Dynamics
Have you ever noticed a never-ending cycle of drama amongst your family or friend group? In this episode, we talk about how the Drama Triangle might be the hidden pattern keeping your relationships stuck in painful cycles. Whether you're supporting a loved one with mental illness or navigating difficult family dynamics, this pattern will keep you trapped in the pain instead of solving it.
Stephen Karpman's Drama Triangle describes three roles that create and sustain relationship dysfunction: the Victim (feeling helpless and powerless), the Persecutor (critical and blaming), and the Rescuer (rushing to fix problems). What makes this pattern so challenging is how people shift between these roles, maintaining the pain while never actually resolving underlying issues.
We identify places where we can spot the drama triangle in our own lives—from childhood experiences with divorced parents to adult relationships—showing how these patterns created confusion and heartache. These triangles often form because we're desperately trying to maintain stability, even when that stability is painful.
The good news is that understanding these patterns gives you the power to break free. We explore practical ways to step outside your habitual role and ultimately break down the triangle entirely. Rather than seeing these behaviors as character flaws, we frame them as adaptations that once served a purpose but may now be limiting your growth and happiness.
This conversation highlights how recognizing these patterns can help you create more authentic connections with loved ones struggling with mental health challenges.
Check out KulaMind.com to learn more about our online platform designed to help you break toxic patterns and find peace while supporting someone with mental illness.
Resources:
If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Description text goJacqueline Trumbull (00:01.745)
Hey, little helpers. Today we have a different topic, one that I had actually never heard of until a follower of ours suggested it. It's called the drama triangle. And this really kind of blends in well, I think, with what we talk about with a lot of personality disorder, behavior, and interpersonal relationships. So I'm going to kick it over to Kibby to tell us what the drama triangle is and tell us how cool a mind can.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:28.866)
Yeah, I'll dive into what the... Sorry. Cut.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:37.346)
The drama triangle itself is a really simple concept. I'll talk a lot more about it later, but wait, no, sorry. I'm trying to...
Am I introducing Drama Triangle first or are we?
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:52.987)
You can do cool mind first, but then introduce the dramatar angle.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:56.226)
Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02.53)
Yeah, this is a really interesting topic because it's something that I learned in family systems therapy first. So the idea in the very simplest form is that when you have a family or close relationships with someone with mental illness that's dysfunctional, often there are three major roles. One is the victim, the person who's hurt, the person who feels helpless, the person who wants help. You have the perpetrator.
person who is causing the pain, who has more power and control. And then the third is the rescuer, someone who rushes in to fix it, to save the victim from the perpetrator and try to, you know, fix the whole situation. So as we're talking about these different roles, what we're really talking about is getting stuck in this toxic dynamic of someone always needing rescuing and someone always fixing and someone always like hurting.
that really maintains mental health problems in a family and really maintains like toxic dynamics. So if you have noticed that when we're describing these roles, if you notice that this is something that you relate to, like you find that you're always trying to help your loved one who has mental illness and sometimes feeling like you're the bad guy for it or things like that, then this is really the kind of stuff that KulaMind is made to help you with.
Again, KulaMind is our online platform and community that will walk you through all the different strategies we talk about for supporting a loved one with mental illness and really supporting yourself. we teach you how to break toxic patterns, set boundaries, respond calmly when things get hard, and to really support yourself and find your own peace. if you're interested, and it's really working with me one-on-one, and I only have a few more slots open, so I'm just, you know.
If you're interested, check out coolamind.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com, and click on Get Started. The link is also in the show notes, so you can check it out there. So you can just book a free call with me and just chat about what you're going through, and we could talk about how I can help.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:12.764)
I think what's important about the drama triangle to understand is that these roles can shift. So you may go from being the rescuer where you're always kind of trying to solve the other person's problems. You're always trying to change their behavior or like figure it out. But then if that person doesn't accept your help or doesn't...
Like take your advice basically then you might switch into the persecutor role where it's like well screw you then like clearly all this is on you These are all your problems. I tried to help I can't and You know the victim can also kind of go from like I think the difference between the victim and the persecutor is like the persecutor tends to blame other people for all of their problems
and they're very harsh and kind of critical. And the victim is likely to blame themselves more and basically say, I'm worthless, I can't do anything right, et cetera. But what can happen sometimes is that like the victim can kind of elicit help from a rescuer. But, you know, when that rescuer gets fed up or when they're still not better, then they can turn into the persecutor where they're like, nobody wants to help me, nobody cares.
you know, everyone else is terrible, yada yada yada. So these roles are dynamic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:43.054)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I find that that's the most interesting part. I love how it's weird because when our listener introduced this topic to us, she gave us an article, which I'll link in the show notes too, that talks about how the roots of this drama triangle, it's called the Cartman drama triangle, is from analyzing fairy tales. And I was like, wait, what? And then reading about it, it's like, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:08.632)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:12.856)
drama starts, it's like the stories in fairy tales, like the drama starts with having these three roles, right? It's like someone needs help and then another person is causing the problem and then there's someone who's rescuing, right? If you think about like Sleeping Beauty or Cinderella, like there's always like some kind of dynamic where there's someone that's helpless and wants something and then there's
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:33.735)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:41.827)
forces that are helping them towards it and getting in the way, right? Like there's the villain and then the protagonist and then the hero, right? There's all these different kinds of roles. And this idea of the drama triangle was proposed by Dr. Steven Cartman in 1968, who's a psychiatrist. And this is something from transactional analysis, which I'm not familiar with.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:51.121)
We're here.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:08.952)
but it's really trying to understand the patterns of unhealthy relationships. And in family systems therapy, they also talk about triangulation, right? Having like three. And the common one that is seen is like the two parents and then the third kid, or like two siblings and a parent, where the common dynamic is, tell your father that I'm not talking to him and I want him to help me out.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:25.157)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:35.074)
well, tell your mother that I'm sick of this, right? Like putting kids in the middle or putting someone in the middle. And it can be really subtle. Like it's not always so clear, you know, it's not as dramatic as like a Sleeping Beauty situation. But sometimes there are these roles, like there's someone who's the mediator in the family, right? There's someone who's the problem child. And then there's the other one who's like.
the narcissistic, oppressive parent who is causing all the issues, right? So there's always like these subtle roles that people fall into with these dysfunctional dynamics and they do shift. I think that was the coolest part. It's not like you're just the victim all the time, which I think that some people do like fall into those roles more often, but you can change. You could flip to the different roles. I think that was so interesting.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:25.713)
I, okay, I'm not super familiar with this topic. I'm learning about it today and therefore maybe some of my confusion is because I don't know enough. But part of this feels obvious. Like, and I can't figure out how you're supposed to get out of it. Like it's obvious to me that some people are going to want to help people some of the time. And it's obvious to me that some people are going to feel.
victimized some of the time and it's obvious to me that some people are gonna be critical and fed up some of the time and it's like are those roles really or is there like is there a problem to that like is there any way out of it or are we just sort of describing like I don't know what it's like to be a person I don't know there's something that feel that I'm missing here
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:14.508)
Yeah, yeah, because these are such obvious roles in any problem. Like someone gets hurt, someone does the hurting, and then there's someone who fixes it. I think this is something that's brought up in family systems therapy. I also, I'm just learning about this too, but I really love, it's so applicable to all the things that we talk about where the idea is that we're not looking at one person as the problem.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:19.738)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:23.953)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:43.662)
or one person has an illness, but the illness is in the system. And in a system of a family, it's almost kind of like there's this structure, there's this dynamic that it has to maintain itself. And all of these people play a role in it, right? They're kind of like a cog in the machine. sometimes people are so like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:43.857)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:04.593)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:09.194)
What's most important about that for the family is that they want to maintain stability, right? And they almost choose it over, you know, making a change even if it's good because stability keeps the family alive and keeps it together. So of course, everyone gets hurt about it, but this is, the drama triangle is in a situation where there's always drama and conflict happening that doesn't get resolved, right? It's like a self-sustaining system.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:36.228)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:39.393)
that is constantly like doing its thing and when it gets dysfunctional is that when people like switch around and people tend to switch these roles because this is not working. This is not ultimately satisfying your need, right? For example, like as you said, if the rescuer really wants to rescue and help and fix a person who's sick or who's the one who's helpless,
then they get exhausted and they feel hurt and they feel tired. that because of that, they flip into the victim. Like how many times have I been in the situation? Like this is like almost like caregiver burnout, right? Where you're like helping, helping, helping, helping, helping. And then you're like, this is not working. That person is still staying stuck. I'm still staying stuck. Fine, I'm done. And well, no, you're trying to help them, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:29.179)
That's more the persecutor.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:34.417)
Yeah, you're trying to help them, but then you get burnt out and you say, fine, I'm done. Like, this is unfixable. But the victim would say, like, I'm, there's something wrong with me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:39.34)
Right, right.
Right, well it depends on what happens, right? And how that person, if I'm like, let's say the fixer, rescuer, I'm trying to fix, fix, fix, fix, and I get so tired of it and it isn't working, it depends on where I want to flip to, right? That's not always clear. I could flip to the victim where I'm like, this is so hard for me. Can't you see how hard it is for me? I'm helpless and I'm burnt down and depressed. Or you become the perpetrator where you're like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:45.413)
Right, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:55.228)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:08.113)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:11.606)
No, you gotta do this now. I'm just taking you to, I'm gonna, fine, and then you get aggressive, right? So it depends, and then cause more hurt in yourself, so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:19.375)
Or just be like, okay, you're unhelpable. You don't want to be helped, That's a problem that you have in your personality. I just did this with my friend, right? I flipped from the rescuer to the persecutor, which I have no interest in actually persecuting her, but just in my own mind, I'm highly critical of her because I got burnt out on helping. But I'm not sitting here thinking I'm incapable of helping people. I understand that other people could. They'd be like, something's wrong with me if I can't fix this. And I feel like...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:30.766)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:36.93)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:47.738)
we could do that as therapists, like when it feels like our job to rescue and then we're not able to rescue and then it's like, I'm not a good therapist, there's something wrong with me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:57.709)
Mm-hmm. Or you go like, like, I've seen actually in that dynamic you're talking about, I've seen you flip to the victim where you're like, that really hurts me. And I'm like, you you bring attention to your hurt, right? And then not fully into the victim, but you talk about your hurt versus like, fine, get away. And then you become the perpetrator of like, I'm the one who abandons.
But the difference with you and your dynamic is it didn't maintain, right? You broke out of it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:28.38)
Yeah.
Okay. I mean, guess I just, I'm kind of like, yeah, like when you try to do something and it doesn't work, you're like, of course you're going to feel bad and then feel bad for yourself and want other people to listen to you. Like, is that dysfunctional? I just, guess part of me is like, this makes just normal human behavior seem dysfunctional. Like I don't know who wouldn't be in these roles at any given time in life. it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:59.566)
Right, right. It's not, right. It's not saying that if you're a victim and someone else is a perpetrator, then you're stuck in this triangle for all of time. It's a triangle for a reason. It's not like someone's hurting you and then you're done, you resolve it. It's a triangle that's maintained the dysfunction and it spins around in its own toxic cycle. It's a cyclical thing. So an example would be,
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:00.421)
You know,
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:20.38)
Thank
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:25.373)
Bye.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:30.234)
I think actually I'm at fault at this. I've been in this a lot. I think this feels a little bit more natural to me because me being a child of divorce, I definitely felt like in a triangle. I definitely felt like there was some system between me and my two parents that was maintaining dysfunction, right? It felt productive because...
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:38.961)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:54.011)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:56.387)
you know, someone was hurt and we were yelling at each other and blah, blah. But there was always like this, we were like glued together with this drama. And the drama was always like, was always kicked off by someone being super hurt, someone being the quote, the person who hurt and the other one was trying to fix it. And I definitely in that space felt like sometimes I was the victim.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:16.187)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:25.17)
of my mom's stuff, the fights and stuff. And then I was running to my dad for help and my dad would call my mom being like, how could you do this to our daughter? Stop it, blah, blah. And then she would get hurt by my dad saying things. And so she'd be like, I'm so hurt because of what he did. And then I would actually have to go back to her to make her feel better because of the hurt that she got from my dad, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:28.646)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:34.247)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:51.042)
So it wasn't like, okay, we all talked this out and we figured it out and we're gonna move forward. it was a triangulation of everyone playing a part of maintaining a pain by, and what's interesting is why they shift is because it doesn't, what this triangle doesn't do is meet emotional needs in the long run. It doesn't help you grow.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:03.023)
Okay, that's helpful.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:15.761)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:18.296)
but also the shift shifts away from a painful reality. So it's almost kind of like a weird avoidance strategy to shift into the different roles. And I'm still trying to digest what that means, but it's basically like if the role isn't working, they shift to another part to kind of like step out of that unmet need.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:41.821)
Well yeah, mean if you imagine somebody who's narcissistic, then they are likely to be a persecutor much of the time. They're likely to be highly critical, feel entitled, think that every problem in their life is somebody else's fault because they can't look inward. Then as soon as narcissistic injury happens, so somebody criticizes them,
then they flip hard into the victim role. They can't do anything right, like how could I, I can't feel this way, da da da da. But then also kind of it seems like waffling between persecutor and victim. I mean, I think that's kind of partly what confuses me is that both the persecutor and the victim seem like victims to me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:13.262)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:31.822)
What do mean?
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:32.816)
Well, the persecutor's saying everything is somebody else's problem, but that's still... it's kind of like saying my problems are somebody else's problems. But the victim says my problems are my own problems, but both of those two characters seem like victims to me. Either they're victim of your own shit or you're a victim of somebody else's shit, but you're still a victim.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:55.608)
Yeah, let's, let's.
Problems and pain, probably all three will have it. But maybe I'm seeing this as like who has power, right? Perpetrator is the one who has power and is trying to fix problems and their pain through power and control over the victim. The victim feels like they're powerless. It's kind of like when we talk about this and with people with borderline personality disorder, how they can flip from active passivity to being like the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:07.461)
Mm-hmm.
Really.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:30.062)
a competent one or it's like, did they have power and control and they're doing things or are they helpless and hopeless and you need to help me? Same with in narcissistic personality disorder, they flip from grandiose, I can do everything to the vulnerable. I'm nothing and everyone hates me, right? And so you have that flip, but then you have a third person who's like mediating and dealing and helping them with trying to get out of this, but really they're not.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:32.189)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:45.585)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Pfft!
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:59.769)
They're just maintaining it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:59.953)
There doesn't have to be a third person though. what I was reading is that you can have this with two people, it's just that your roles will flip between the three. You were gonna analyze my ex. What did you say about him?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:07.884)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. there's a really sad comfort that I have in being a third party, right? That's like this feeling that I had in couples therapy when I was doing couples therapy or with friends who are fighting. It's like you feel comfortable being the mediator, but there's something really familiar and comforting with it. So for example, in your last relationship when...
You two are having a fight.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:43.793)
You are the rescuer.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:45.74)
Yeah, sometimes, right? Like, one of you would be like, talk to that person, right? Because they're not listening. And the problem was that you two weren't listening to each other's feelings. Like, you two had a conflict, right, in yourself, right? Like, you two should have broken up and did break up. But, right, like, there was issues in the relationship. But sometimes you would...
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:52.263)
morning.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:01.297)
Mm-hmm.
That is a conflict.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:11.261)
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:13.294)
pull me in or someone else to try to like translate, to try to listen to one and try to talk to the other person, right? And I actually said this to some, I think I forgot who I said this to, but I remember saying, I think your ex's like thoughts and feelings were sometimes so aggressive and like hostile that I was like, okay, fine, let me let him vent that to me.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:17.937)
You're right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:37.937)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:42.502)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:42.637)
so I can absorb that first bit of anger so that he doesn't say that stuff to her. Right? And so I would have like hour long conversations where he would just like spew vitriol at me. And then I would like try to validate or try to be like, try to do all my things to try to get him around it. And then eventually I would soften him up and I'll be like, okay, great. Then he could go and talk to her now. Cause maybe he's in a more open position.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:45.649)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:06.108)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:10.474)
And I guess that works sometimes. I don't know, but like it worked enough, but it was dysfunctional because what I was trying to do is absorb the badness. that, but then like that doesn't really work in the longterm. It doesn't actually fix what's going on between you. It's it's a, it's a bandaid, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:20.773)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:29.181)
Right. Well, it hurts you in the long run, and it also prevents me from getting the full scale of the information that would have allowed me to leave him, theoretically.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:39.5)
Yeah, like the time that I flipped into perpetrator was when he went on a rant about how he thought you're narcissistic or like all the bad things. And he was just like, and I was like, yeah, she definitely has those qualities. Sometimes she can be narcissistic. Yeah, that, you know, yep. And then she's worried about her looks or blah, blah, blah. And then he went to you and was like, Kibby said you're narcissist.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:50.044)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:02.087)
Hmm. And sad. KB thinks you're a narcissist.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:09.358)
Right? And suddenly I'm the perpetrator. Right? And so I was like, fuck. Like I was like, I know better. I know these roles switch. And that's the key part for everyone listening to this. If you think that you're just gonna be the victim or the rescuer, nah, sometimes, sometimes you switch to the other ones. And then I've also been the victim. Like when he gets, when he got, when I was trying to mediate with him and then he got mad and then flipped.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:11.143)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:36.512)
into attacking me or threatening me. I was the victim and I was like, I can't do this. I'm helpless. my God. Right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:41.597)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:45.589)
And then was turning to you for support, right? So sometimes it's just like, it's basically pain that's being tossed around between three people. And really what it needed, what needed to happen was that you two needed to, like I needed to step out. You needed no mediators. You just needed to like be with each other and be like, let's work out whatever this is, whatever this pain is between us. Like let's work it out together.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:53.348)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:08.113)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think, so with BPD, what I was reading is that, what can often happen is they start out as a rescuer, which I'm sure, I they can also start out as a victim, but whatever, but it can be common to start out as a rescuer because they'll see other people who are in distress and remind them, like, of themselves, for instance. So, like, I just watched this play out with my sister and her ex, I hope to God forever ex.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:26.371)
Mmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:35.933)
where they met in rehab and whenever my sister goes to rehab, she always highly identifies with the men there. And she always tries to rescue, rescue, rescue, rescue. Because it's a good place for her, right? Because normally she feels disempowered and kind of like a victim to alcohol and other stuff. So with him, she rescued him and gave her her...
gave him her time and her energy and her sympathy. And then, you know, when she would want space or something else for her future, like, he would switch heavily into the persecutor role and then she would flip into the victim role and just be like, my, like, I'm, you know, I guess I have to accept any amount of treatment from him because...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:23.8)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:33.315)
you know, I lied or I messed up or, you know, whatever the case may be. And then he would do something so egregious that then she might become the persecutor for like half a second and then would kind of flip back into the victim role again. And it's just like on and on and on. And then he would do this all the time, right? He'd be like, you are a terrible lying alcoholic slut and you just cheat on me, which the story is way more complicated than that. And so
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:48.162)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:02.267)
Therefore I'm gonna hire private investigators to come spy on you and I'm gonna stalk you and I'm gonna you know hurt you and I deserve to do that because you You know, you keep throwing away my love. How dare you and so It was that kind of I think that's the thing is it's like a victim stance that allows him to then perpetrate
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:27.478)
Hmm. Hmm. That's interesting. I think that's an interesting wrinkle about how victimhood can be weaponized to actually perpetrate, right? So even the drama triangle might have broken down now and collapsed and be like, you can be a perpetrator and hurt someone by being the rescuer, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:40.093)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:54.172)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:55.928)
perpetrate from victimhood. wow, this is okay. Way more complex. Way more complex than I thought.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:00.093)
Well, this was my ex too, like always flipping between persecution and victimhood. And then, you know, then what can happen is then she feels really bad or I felt really bad with my ex, right? And then they flip into the rescuer. it's okay. I'm here for you. I love you still. Like, you know, I'm sorry I did that, but like let's all kiss your boo boo, make it better.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:15.982)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:19.662)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:25.536)
Mm-hmm. That's yeah Yeah, I think it's interesting and I think that that that might just highlight that what happens with the shifts the shifts force the other ones maybe into other roles too, right like If we talk about this with gaslighting and Darvo and I've you know seen them like your relationship where he'll say something to hurt you you'll be upset and then he'll go into
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:27.439)
So.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:40.476)
Good morning.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:55.151)
the child like victim role and be like, oh, it's because I'm, you know, can't, I'm so bad. And then you would, it would pull reassurance and sympathy and caring from you, right? So it just like, forces the other person into the other roles that you, you know, to see what happens and to try to get needs met by like flipping around.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:58.001)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:07.453)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:11.869)
Hmm
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:19.343)
Right, I guess part of me though is like, okay, how do we get out of it? Like, if somebody's in distress, I'm gonna find it pretty hard not to make them feel better. And that's not always a bad, I that's usually a good thing, right? It's this dysfunctional systems where something else is needed.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:39.406)
Yeah, I'm also wondering how does, well now the answer to the question is coming to my head, but I was thinking like, how does this not happen all the time in couples therapy? Because you're literally introducing a third person who's the rescuer, right? And commonly people don't like couples therapy because they're like, the therapist was against me. So suddenly like, know, the therapist would go from, you know,
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:51.313)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:06.042)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:09.55)
the rescuer to the perpetrator and then sometimes they become the victim when the couple or someone like starts yelling and be like, how could you, you you're a bad therapist, how could you do that? Right? So it's like couples therapy almost introduces this drama triangle. the. I mean, the. I think similarly with what we've been always talking about, which is getting stuck is basically like, how do we get unstuck? And I think that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:22.48)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:36.007)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:38.799)
For the drama triangle, family therapists will say, okay, this is a system that's maintaining itself and it's a dysfunctional system. All families have a system and a structure that maintains itself, okay? It's not like three people are always gonna be dysfunctional, but when there's drama and conflict and pain being passed around without it being resolved, it's almost like they're bonding over the misery, right? And how do we relate to that misery?
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:03.271)
Good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:08.886)
So it really is about breaking up the triangle that gets the change, right? I'm sure you could change it in multiple ways. You could change a system by changing one of the cogs in the machine, but it's really like family therapists would break up the triangle. And what that looks like is, so in one of the family therapy trainings I went to, she said, okay, the triangulation always happens, often happens in families where
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:15.099)
Okay.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:22.461)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:38.018)
the parents or siblings or whatever. And then there's like, let's say two parents are fighting, they're dysfunctional and then they have a kid. And the kid is the mediator, the go-between. Tell your father, tell your mother, I'm not gonna, right? What happens a lot in that kind of system is like often the kid gets really anxious because that kid is absorbing and involved in a triangle.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:51.901)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:06.99)
of the parents' pain in their own marriage. Right? So they're not getting their needs met as a kid. They're living in and being raised in their dysfunction as a couple. So what you do is you break up the triangle. You get the kid out of there. You kick the kid out and say, parents, you're going to sit and talk about your problems. And then,
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:20.317)
and I'm out.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:34.655)
good family therapist will not take over that role of rescuer but just like continually hand it back to them and Say I'm not gonna rescue you. I'm not gonna rescue anyone Okay, because the triangle if you think about it as like a control thing is like one person has all the power one has a you know Not as much power and then there's a third person trying to mediate the power right dynamic, but it's like no, no, no, no, It's we're not gonna we're not gonna polarize it. Everyone has power here
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:02.535)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:03.022)
One person feels hurt, but maybe all of you feel hurt, you all have to rescue yourself.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:10.928)
Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:12.088)
So take, so collapse the triangle into a dyad. Like just actually try, have people talk about things directly. No, tell your mom this, tell your mom that. No, the parents have to talk to each other about the pain. And that's really hard because A, you're breaking up a system. B, you're like, you know, there's nothing to soften. There's nothing to mediate. It's just open yourself up to the pain of what's actually in between you two, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:24.381)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:37.725)
you
Okay, and what if it's just two people that are role switching? Like there's no third mediator, there's no...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:49.026)
I mean, then it's all the stuff we talk about in couples therapy and communication. It's about both parties taking accountability. It's about both parties describing their experience and listening to the other person's experience and then finding a mid-ground that satisfies both of their needs.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:55.461)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:07.781)
Okay. Do you feel like you're about to be mostly a rescuer in life, You feel?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:15.678)
I identify as a rescuer, I often probably, identify as a, you know what, actually now that I think about it, growing up, I felt like the perpetrator. And sometimes, and there's other words for it, there's other, like scapegoat, I think. Was that a victim? Yeah. I thought of myself as a problem.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:17.084)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:30.845)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:35.823)
And yeah, we talked about that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:42.455)
and like causing a lot of the problems, but kind of like reacting to everything. And then I grew up and I was like, I want to shift out of this. I'm going to be a rescuer. So I became a therapist and like focused on helping people. But then I only recently realized how much I probably have been a victim too. I really, I really under value.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:42.577)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:50.013)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:57.265)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:11.028)
my experiences as a victim. And I think of like, we've talked about this where ever since like healing from cancer, I was like, my God, like the amount of abuse that I had, like, I always thought about like, I'm the prob, I was a problem. did like, life was chaotic. And I recognize that like my parents pain and mental illness and addiction, like definitely affected me, but I didn't really see myself as a victim.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:22.436)
No.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:27.719)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:40.604)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:41.75)
until recently and I was like, this is all making sense because a lot of my symptoms and the way I look at myself and how much I do think sort of prevent disaster and feel bad about myself all the time and constantly feel like I can't rest because I have to prove myself is from times where I've been a victim. So yeah, so just, think I...
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:02.385)
the room.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:07.077)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:11.242)
I've only recently realized how much I should have probably taken a video.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:15.065)
It seems like that slowed down your persecutor side. Like you seem less critical, yeah, like calmer, sweeter. I don't know if that's from recognizing that like you've been mistreated.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:20.364)
to be a victim.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:37.133)
Yeah, think the perpetrator feels a little bit more comfortable because it feels like I have control and power, right? Like with my ex, it was so confusing because he, I strongly identified as a victim and rescuer. but right, like he was like, I can't possibly.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:47.655)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:06.254)
live normal life, you know, I have to just smoke weed in your basement and not really engage. And I would be like, yeah, yeah, he was a victim. I was like, oh, sorry, yeah, he identifies as a victim. And I would eventually get so like worried and overwhelmed and confused why like he wasn't working or doing that. I would be like, what the fuck is going on? Like, why aren't you doing anything? And then he would collapse into like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:12.241)
Also, he was the victim. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:19.005)
Thank
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:32.718)
Well, you're yelling at me. And then I would feel so guilty, right? So I was like, my God, like I'm, and he would say this, like I'm pressuring him. I'm oppressing him. I'm the one with all the power and I'm like yelling at him for not doing anything and making him feel bad about himself. But at the same time, I felt helpless and powerless, especially because I had to end up like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:35.546)
Uh-huh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:53.873)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:59.182)
supporting him in so many ways that I didn't agree to and like agreeing to a lot of like my boundaries were constantly violated all the time. So I was like, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:06.629)
Yeah, mean, feeding him sandwiches with your hand feeding him sandwiches was my personal favorite anecdote.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:12.13)
Yeah.
But look how weird it was. mean, the stories for people who have no idea what we're talking about. my gosh. I hope he's not listening.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:22.823)
Kimmy had to hand feed him sandwiches because he would get too hungry to pick up his own hands and feed them to himself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:28.172)
He was like a 30-something year old doctor who would, I would be like, you gonna be hungry? Should I get dinner? And he'd be like, no, I'm not hungry. And I'm like, you're gonna be hungry in like an hour. He'd like, no, it's fine. And then he would get so hungry that he would just collapse onto the couch and be like, okay, give me a second. I'll get up and get some food. I just can't, I can't even. And so I would bring him food.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:47.549)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:57.719)
You did him so he could get up. Real rescue. mean, it was real. It was real infantilizing, like I had a baby. literally I honestly my baby is a lot more like go get him than my ex husband was. But it made me feel like I had so much power and he was so helpless. And I was like and so when I felt hurt or confused or whatever.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:05.233)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:23.5)
It was really confusing because I was like, but I have all this power and control and I'm the one who's determining everything and I'm the go getter alpha, whatever. But it didn't feel that way. So it was like really, really confusing. And so me being in the persecutor role feels comfortable because I'm like, yeah, I have agency. But then I was like, do I?
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:29.095)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:37.316)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:45.799)
Well, that feels like the more normal role for the parent to be in is the flip between rescuer and persecutor. Ideally, you spend more time in the rescuer role if it's your child, but that's discipline, right? It's like, I'm going to discipline you now. It gets pretty weird when parents are victims and then their child has to be parentified. But yeah, so you were flipping between rescue and persecutor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:05.166)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:10.818)
Yeah, yeah, I really didn't want to be the rescuer a lot, but I had to. Yeah, another thing about it, she would, my mom would collapse and, you know, you know, need physical help, like going to the hospital or like be hurt that I left, slash was kicked out my house and she would call me like, how could you leave me? So I'd have to come back because I would feel so bad about hurting her by leaving.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:29.767)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:39.665)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:43.361)
Yeah, it's, these are, really, interesting, okay. I'm learning, I'm like piecing this together as we talk about it. It's really a system that is maintained by the idea that there is an imbalance of power and who seems to wield it to cause the pain, right? I mean, even in the origin stories of
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:08.391)
Mmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:12.59)
of the fairy tales like Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, my goodness, like what an obvious difference in power that's set up from the beginning, right? Like Cinderella was a, I don't know, like a princess or aristocrat or whatever she was. And then the evil stepmother takes over and takes away literally all her power to make her, you know, like a maid. So if she was just, if it was just like two equal women battling it out and some magic mirror doing all in the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:32.007)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:41.388)
very godmother coming in to rescue no one. Like it's not the same as like, there's someone has all the power and we gotta rescue the one with no power because that's not fair. We gotta fight for justice, right? There's almost like this third force has to come in to make it right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:00.123)
Yeah, I mean I do, I guess it's important to note like the victim role is somebody who is sort of like feels chronically helpless, incapable of change, powerless, know, ashamed often, but they're not actually a victim of circumstance. So I don't think that...
you would, so like Cinderella was a victim of circumstance, so that's why we like her and don't see her as like the victim role in this, even though yes, that's the, that's the fairy tale kind of role that he's noticing. But it's like a, it's a stance that one takes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:39.406)
They're, hmm, interesting.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:42.139)
I mean, that's just what this article is saying.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:46.201)
that there actually isn't a real power differential. I I can imagine that when you deal with families, there is a power difference, right? Like there's often like the father or someone else who's stronger, right? Who has more financial means or physical strength. And then the other one who's more like helpless and scared. And then the kid who's trying to save his mom from the abuse, right? So that's an example of like real power differential, but then.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:55.249)
Yep.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:13.679)
Yeah, I don't, guess maybe the point, I mean, this says, this is not an actual victim of circumstance, but someone who acts or feels like one, denying their ability to take responsibility or make decisions. I'm guessing they're making that distinction because if you are in a dysfunctional situation because you are quite literally the victim, like you are being beaten on, you yourself are not maintaining the dysfunction. Like,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:24.631)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:40.44)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:41.581)
you don't have a choice. That's not, you know, that has nothing to do with your personality necessarily. Now, I mean, obviously, like one hopes that you would leave, but what maintains the dysfunction is your taking of that stance sort of voluntarily or subconsciously, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:02.574)
Maybe that's why the roles can shift because people actually, could trade the power a little bit more easily versus situations that are very clear cut. Like this is a boss and this is an employee and one is harassed and there's like an HR that comes in and has like rescues and this is very clear cut. Like this is resolved because this is a problem.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:07.11)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:17.787)
Yeah.
I mean, you come across a man beating up a woman in the streets and then you rescue that woman, you're not going to say that two of those people were maintaining a dysfunctional relationship. Like one was an actual victim, one was an actual rescuer. That needed to happen and we removed. But if somebody is taking up that, like my ex was always taking the stance of the victim.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:47.532)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:47.815)
The victim to his girlfriend's horish past. How could she do this to me before we met? How could I?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:56.505)
Just so also people know, like if you haven't heard this before, he would like get angry with her and ruminate over just the idea that she had exes or had hooked up or dated people in the past. It was as bananas as we're talking about, so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:09.286)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right. He's not a victim of circumstance, right, but he's taking up that stance so then I had to comfort him and become the rescuer.
And then I would get sick of that and then be like, fuck you. And I'm insecure. Instead of saying, you know what, I'm not going to participate. I'm not going to rescue you from these feelings of victimhood. Because I had sex before you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:30.388)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:46.37)
Yeah, I wonder if it's not as cleanly in the triangle like three people. I think that just seems to be maybe more common or anecdotal. And this is all what we're talking about is all different roles involving
maintaining a toxic dynamic, which is like almost like maintaining pain. Right? It's, it's of course every situation. I mean, this is why the drama triangle was talking about like drama starts with these three, but like at the end of the fairy tale, everything's fine. Right? Like it gets resolved. Like, you know, Cinderella becomes a princess, whatever. But when we're talking about in family systems,
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:07.43)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:11.133)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:23.357)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:30.136)
therapy or like the drama triangle is like it is ongoing. It's a system of avoiding resolving pain and keeping it alive with three people involved and playing a role in that. And when one person is done with that role, they switch to the other ones. But the roles are the things that are stable.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:39.207)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:43.751)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:50.001)
Mm-hmm. Wait, no, but the roles shift. But you're saying they shift, but the fact that they're in roles. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:53.751)
The roles are stable, but the people in the roles are different. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. What role are you most comfortable in? What do you think?
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:01.917)
rescuer, I guess? I mean, I'm, I don't, I don't think I typically, I sometimes criticize people behind their backs, but I feel like that's kind of normal. I mean, it's usually like when I get fed up, like when they, when I perceive them as being victim or perpetrator, then I'll be like, you know, nah, they're, you know, they're perpetuating their own problems. But I don't know, I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:11.683)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:29.135)
I have an allergy to being a victim, certainly, I mean, I feel like I am the victim when it comes to more instrumental stuff. Like, I have the opposite of apparent competence when I need to set up a tent or analyze data. And then I'm the damsel in distress. Help me!
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:44.856)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:51.182)
Yeah, you are, you were, yeah, you were, you play victim a lot. Like you're like, oh my God, I can't do this analysis. And then I sit next to you and you're like, okay, I do this and this and that. I'm like, you knew how to do it. you just didn't think so or you didn't want to do it. You want to make someone else do it. I'm so helpless. I had a friend who I couldn't believe, like I never did this before. And I was like, wow.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:13.725)
It's...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:18.606)
the balls, the female labia to do this. Like she said that she was a little girl and she would have suitcases and when she was traveling she would stand on the bottom or the top of this staircase and just look at the staircase with like a confused and scared look and do that until someone would carry her stuff down.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:41.699)
Hahaha
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:43.576)
She was like, that was just the way I did it. I would just stand there and I'd just kind of like look worried at the stairs until someone kind of like carried her suitcases. That's what you do with data analysis.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:50.941)
Hehehehehe
Yeah, yeah. And it's because data analysis makes me panic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:03.758)
Yeah, I'm publicly outing you. You actually can do more of this stuff. So anyone out there who thinks that Jacqueline's a victim. But however, you are allergic to the victim role because there are times, there's a lot about your experience where you don't, you will contort your mind to justifying things to avoid the victim role. Like if someone was actively mean to you, or in your relationship or otherwise.
you would be like, well, that makes sense. I understand why he would do that. I I definitely triggered him in this way. And almost to the point where sometimes you will like pretend that you're like this evil, know, like Machiavellian, like, well, this, you know, I did this and that. I'm like, no, that's just like your way of thinking that you had way more power and control than you did. switch roles. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:41.469)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:55.217)
Yeah, I mean that's why I told everyone I was a narcissist for like five years. But I mean the most like, you know, I mean I ended that relationship and like the friendship and the most prominent emotion I had was guilt. So that's the rescuer's emotion.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:09.932)
Right. Right. I think that in both of those scenarios, you don't say like, that was really hurtful. Like even things like sometimes like your family members will say something and like your sister will say something mean to you or like, you know, your ex relationship, you know, and you would you you would get angry, kind of like how I would get angry, like, how dare you? Like, why does he think this blah, blah, blah? But you wouldn't be like, that really hurt. And actually, I'm kind of scared.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:40.679)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:42.22)
You'd be like, well, it's because I did have a assorted past. And I'm like, my god, OK.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:50.333)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's good that I've found another rescuer to date so that I don't have to take up that role all the time.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:05.774)
Well, even beyond that, there's not as obvious dysfunction, at least not that you've, you know, so it's not like, you know, everyone could be free to be hurt sometimes and hurt someone else. it's not something like you and your current partner, like kind of toss around the soccer ball of pain. It's like, you know, things seem to happen and resolve and, know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:10.449)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:27.676)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:32.96)
A really interesting example I just thought of of a drama triangle is the white, how far are you in the white lotus in the third season? Okay. The three women. The three women, like three girlfriends. This is why like friends of, you know, three are tough because like they shit talk each other when the other one is away, right? And then they shift around to who was hurt, who was the one who's the bad one, who like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:39.331)
I finished it. I finished it, Uh-huh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:47.207)
to keep shifting rubbers.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:55.121)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:00.647)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:00.97)
And they all were kind of at fault at that. Like you have the girl with short hair who was just like, you know, like I'm just trying to, yeah, I forgot the names, but just trying to help. But then she was like really causing some like drama. And then, and you could see in that whole season, like they were just cycling through drama. wasn't like they had a problem. One was a victim, one was a perpetrator, and everyone was like resolved it. It was a passed around pain.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:04.155)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:08.625)
Lauren? her.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:16.125)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:28.746)
And at the end, think they just kind of, I don't wanna give it away, but I think they were like, this is what binds us, right? They all kind of did the right thing. And this is the tip to get rid of the drama triangle. You communicate openly and actually address the pain. But I think that they were a little bit, you could be like, they were like, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:28.881)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:48.113)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:54.903)
we are close because we should talk to each other and this is how our friendship goes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:59.599)
Yeah, but I also, Lori subverted her role. You know, she decided to say out loud, like, I feel like a victim sometimes, but really I'm lucky to have you, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lean into envy and persecution, right? I'm gonna say, I'm glad you have such a beautiful face. I'm glad you have such a beautiful family. You know, I'm not gonna take up the role that I usually take up when I victimized.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:07.97)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:12.014)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:25.71)
Yeah.
Yeah, so that's another, I guess that's another tip is like if you notice yourself
I guess it's all like...
I guess it is stepping out of roles in general. I think that when we talk about dysfunctional families and the roles you play, the problem is you just completely becoming a role, right? Instead of being individuals with everyone having their freedom and autonomy and agency, it's like there has to be a victim where
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:54.983)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:09.127)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:11.45)
They never admit fault. They're the ones who are completely helpless and they're being hurt by other people, right? I feel like that's like the blaming one, but...
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:15.557)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:20.357)
I'm gonna, this episode is coming out after this is recorded, but I think taking a we care frame is also helpful. So basically like understanding that your role may have to change in order to do the best thing for the group, right? That's what Lori did in that moment. She's like, I'm going to, I'm going to let myself be.
hurt and powerless to an extent, and I'm going to do opposite action. I'm going to lean into love these people, and that's how we strengthen these relationships and therefore then strengthen myself. Another person might have to say, like, I'm going to lean out of the rescuer role because if I keep doing this, I'm going to flip to persecutor. I'm going to get resentful and exhausted and fed up. And so it sucks to not rescue. It sucks to deny help. But if I don't, then...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:48.856)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:54.222)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:58.937)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:04.142)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:10.563)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:17.051)
this person will cease to have my help forever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:20.194)
Yeah, recognize that stepping out of those roles, it's really scary because I think that when you talk about family systems, like the worst thing that you can imagine, especially a child, the worst thing you can imagine is the destruction of the family, right? If I don't mediate between mommy and daddy, my family is gonna be destroyed, right? That's a lot for like one person to hold. So they wanna...
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:22.109)
Thank
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:45.446)
and
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:48.45)
They're going to maintain the dysfunction just because staying together in pain is worse than breaking up, right? I can imagine how hard that would be to lean out of the rescue role. It's kind of like when we have patients who are in that kind of victim active passivity, they go, I'm totally helpless. I can't do anything. And we have the tendency to be like, come on.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:54.845)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:14.638)
Here's this other tool, here's this other, like you want help? And yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:17.149)
I massively over function for my patients sometimes and I'm like having to learn how to not do that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:23.532)
Yeah, that's totally normal. That's like, that's the roles you're set up with. I'm literally rescue. I'm literally helping you. But if the person like is completely denying any sorts of agency and saying, well, you, you're the whatever, you know, and I can't do anything, then you're gonna, it's gonna pull a lot of sympathy and support from you. But when that happens, we're supposed to drop the rope, like lean out of the role a little bit, like, okay, I'm here if you need help.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:29.68)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:43.153)
anyway.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:52.477)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:52.483)
What can you do? What are things that you're willing to do? All right, like stop working so hard and let them, and because there's a system, They have to take up the mantle, but they have to take up the agency and go, well, in order for us to stay connected, you're leaning out, so I have to lean back in a little bit, so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:57.607)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:10.813)
It's funny, I'll notice it in myself when in session I'm like happy to over function. Like, yeah, let me help you. Let's look. I'll come up with this. But then in supervision, I'll sound very frustrated about the patient. And yeah, I've been told like, it seems like you're doing too much work here. It seems like you're frustrated or annoyed. And I'm like, but I don't feel that way with them when I'm actually with them. But yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:23.0)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:36.79)
Mm-hmm. Well, because as we're saying, like, of course, you being in a helping role and them being a victim is, normal. But what's frustrating is that it doesn't lead to growth. I think that's when you know there's a dysfunctional system, is when people don't have in that system the autonomy and freedom and agency to grow. Right? You're stuck.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:59.524)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:01.302)
and you're arrested in the development. So it would be different if you were working, working, working, and then they go, wow, thank you so much. I took your advice, I listened to you, like you really helped me. Then you're like, great. But it's frustrating when you're working, working, working, working, and you're feeling it's almost like you're chasing them.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:11.271)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:20.411)
Yeah. Well...
Do we have anything else to say about this topic? Y'all know this out.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:31.342)
Let's see, I'm gonna love...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:42.755)
Yeah. I think that the tips are, as we mentioned, like break the triangle, have people talk directly, either as a group, like the three people talk directly and openly about the pain and not avoid uncomfortable scenarios and don't default to a role to avoid it, right? Like if you're talking about pain, don't be like, gosh, I'm the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:52.465)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:11.182)
I'm the worst, I can't help anything, right? The kind of the collapse of shame and like falling into the victim role is a way to of avoid dealing with it. So actually just like talking about things directly, openly, try to not avoid discomfort. And then as we're saying, like to not just fall into a role, but that we might have elements of a lot of different stuff, right? Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we're hurt, sometimes we wanna help, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:20.519)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:40.386)
You could have all those things and you're not one thing. You're not one of those things. And just, I think the main thing is to like recognize that in your life when you see a drama triangle. Like maybe you just reflect on like, huh, yeah, actually I have two friends that I'm always in the middle of or, you know, like I'm always fighting with my boyfriend and that there's other friend who always comes to step in and tell them off, right? Like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:43.675)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:07.408)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:07.424)
Notice when you have these triangles in your life and notice if it's not leading to any change in growth. If it's just passing around that drama, then it's time to either just enjoy it and just enjoy the ride and know that that's something that's binding you guys or to just lean out of it and just be like, okay, you guys figure it out on your own. You do it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:24.006)
I'm
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:33.243)
All right, well, if you all want to lean into the role of rescuer, then we would love to have five star ratings on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and lovely little comments to make us feel better about ourselves. But otherwise, we'll see you next week. Okay.
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