Ep. 144 - When One Chases and the Other Runs: Understanding the Pursuer-Withdrawer Dynamics in Couples
Feeling stuck in the same arguments with your partner? Does it feel like a cycle of one of you is chasing and the other is running away? In this episode, we talk about the problematic cycle behind recurring relationship conflicts through the lens of Emotion-Focused Therapy (EFT).
We break down the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic: that frustrating cycle where one person pushes for connection while the other pulls away. What looks like rejection or criticism on the surface actually masks deeper attachment needs and fears. You may be the one desperately trying to get your partner to engage, or one who shuts down when emotions run high.
We argue that pursuers and withdrawers are actually fighting for the relationship in their own ways. Drawing from recent EFT research and our personal experiences, these patterns develop from childhood experiences and attachment styles.
We also talk about important strategies for breaking this pursue-withdrawal cycle of disconnection. For example, we cover TEMPO framework that helps couples identify what triggers their defensive reactions and how to communicate underlying needs more effectively. We also discuss how co-regulation and vulnerability can break destructive cycles and create deeper connection.
**If you are in a relationship with someone struggling with explosive emotions, you may be caught in these destructive cycles. Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn about how the KulaMind program helps people like you break the cycle.
Resources:
If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:01.13)
Hello, little helpers. Today, we are going to talk about something that comes from a couples therapy intervention called emotion-focused therapy. It's something I've been doing all year. Kibby just did a workshop on it, so we're jazzed up to talk about this. Couples therapy is something I love to do. And obviously, as you all know, we love talking about romance on this show. So today we're gonna talk about...
couple dynamic that can cause problems and that is the pursuer withdraw dynamic. So we're gonna get into that today but first I'm gonna kick it off to Kibby to talk about Hulamind and then I think we're gonna do some life updates.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:43.192)
Thanks, so KulaMind is our platform that we're really making for you, all you little helpers, to help you learn the skills to support a loved one with emotion dysregulation. So I've noticed that a lot of people who've been reaching out are people who have like a husband or a wife who might have some anger issues and tend to explode with emotion and the person doesn't know what to do. They wanna also, they wanna.
be able to set boundaries so it doesn't get dangerous, but they also want to help their loved one too. So that is what people have been reaching out for help with. So I wanted to talk about something exciting that in July, in mid July, we're going to start a group course on this. yeah, so if you're interested and just want to learn more about working one-on-one with me or to join the group, you can reach out to kulamind.com
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:27.808)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:40.254)
or the link in the show notes. Book a call with me to just chat about it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:46.74)
Awesome. Now I kind of want to teach that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:49.357)
Yeah, well, you best believe that I'm gonna rope you into teaching a a couple sessions, especially on any of your favorite topics. yeah, Jacqueline will also be teaching the group as she's just finding out right now.
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:02.666)
Well, I guess that can kick off my life. Well, my life update, I guess, is that I'm going to be a psychologist soon and therefore will be able to be roped into your practice. Yeah, so I'm defending my dissertation on Friday and that's kind of it. Then I just have to survive in my internship for another three months, which is great. And then I get to be a doctor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:14.934)
Yay!
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:27.406)
How are you feeling?
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:27.796)
Finally. Really good. mean, I'm gonna, my like, feelings of excitement are slightly suspended because I have to get through this hurdle first. But, and I'm like anticipating every time I go into a major hurdle, I'm like, I always think it's gonna feel like this watershed, you know, emotional day. And then instead it's kind of like, huh, okay. Well, this is just another day, but.
I'm going to try to really let this one sink in. mean, it took me, it was such a journey getting into my PhD program, or any PhD program, and so the fact that it's right around the bend is kind of wild.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:12.27)
I know, that is crazy. I mean, I remember when we first met, I remember talking on Skype for the first time and meeting at the bar after your interview. And I can't believe, like, you're done now. So this is, this is huge. This is really cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:17.77)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:25.928)
Yeah, I know. I mean, we finally get to be a two psychologists headed podcast. That's exciting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:34.004)
Yeah, yeah. And I'd love to when, you know, we're going to do an episode on what you learned in your dissertation, but also we could talk about like your whole journey, you know? Yeah. Just going to spill the tea unfiltered.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:45.758)
we're gonna, we're gonna do a grad school episode in three months. I'll spill some tea. I've been like rehearsing this episode, the grad school episode, for months. I'm gonna, and I'm like, I've got like an angry version I'm not gonna do. And then I've got like a gracious version that I'll also probably not do. Maybe somewhere in the middle.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:04.546)
Mmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:09.208)
We'll make it a juicy one. We'll make it juicy. Spilling the tea. Your real feelings.
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:12.892)
It was a pretty juicy six years, to be honest. Yeah. Starting with the interview, I I went to that interview and hated it. And then the thing that turned me around was getting drunk with you and Caitlin.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:17.622)
was.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:26.71)
Yeah, and dragging you through six more years of pain and suffering, so you're welcome.
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:30.92)
Yeah. It's so funny because I told you guys I was a gold digger and you seemed to like love that and then that's how got into grad school.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:42.754)
Yeah man, I'm like, this girl is honest. You know, this girl. It's like an interesting amount of self-awareness.
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:51.04)
Yeah, bet not too many people say that at an interview. What's going on with you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:57.59)
No, sit down.
All right. I mean, last episode we dug in deep into my childhood trauma. People were really nice. I mean, all you guys have been really, really sweet. I want to respond to the messages on YouTube especially, but people were really kind and really supportive about me opening up that much. For people who haven't listened, I talked a lot about, I guess like childhood trauma that I'm kind of.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:08.543)
Yes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:29.432)
hoping with and realizing now, realizing the effects of them and then how I've had all these defense mechanisms over it, like feeling really angry and then trying to control that anger and all that stuff. the past ever since we did the episode, I think I've been kind of in a trauma state, like a triggered state. Some days I felt really shaky and just kind of foggy. I found it really hard to focus on
like details and you know, like things on my schedule slipped my attention. Like I just was like a mess and I felt really shaky and insecure. So I kind of felt like, as if I was like porous, like not my normal full bodied self, but as if I was like a shaky leaf. So it just reminded me of like what trauma does and like what happens when you re-experience it or reprocess it. You just feel like you're in it all over again.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:05.088)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:28.266)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:28.558)
So that was rough, but I'm feeling a little bit better now.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:32.896)
Is this something you're going to continue processing, continue doing in therapy?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:37.004)
I think so. think the question I had was why didn't more people help me? Which I think that I've been talking to people who knew me, therapist and other people where the way I coped with a lot of this kind of abusive childhood experiences was through anger and also like hyper, you know, being hyper.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:44.084)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:01.102)
vigilant and working a lot and being like a star student. So I was really like angry and fighting with my boyfriend and breaking up with him all the time. You know, being kind of, I don't know, like irritable and in therapy. And apparently like I talked a lot about boy trouble back then, like being angry with boyfriends. But people were starting to say that when they knew me back then, they didn't know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:15.072)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:21.472)
Mmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:29.87)
the extent of the abuse. They didn't know how bad it was with my mom. there's been sometimes like a kind of a community reprocessing where it's like, oh, no wonder why you were so angry or so focused on getting out and working hard and how angry you are with your boyfriend because, you know, all of the stuff that you went through. It just seemed like people didn't know how bad it was, which that's kind of makes me sad, I think.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:57.684)
How has this, are you just calling them up and saying, hey, I wanna talk about this and then describing what happened? How is it happening that they're finding out?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:05.752)
Now I'm just talking to my therapist about the extent of what happened, like all the details and stories that I thought she knew, but she really didn't. And also some family members. My grandma just moved to a different place. So there's a lot of old stuff, old family stuff that's being moved around. And there are some old journals of mine, old emails that I've sent my grandparents that...
when you look at it, like it didn't seem like anything, like I described a dream where, I wrote this when I was 14, I had a dream where I was thrown in jail and I didn't know why, but basically I found out that I can never leave and I found out that my mom was the one who had me locked up and she basically said, well, it's my fault that we're locked up, but if it weren't for your stupid father, and so the end of the dream.
I realized that I was like trapped in this forever. And now that makes sense, right? That like, I'm like, yeah, I know what that feels like. I feel trapped.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:06.868)
Cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:10.8)
Mm-hmm. It's amazing when dreams can really nail it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:12.3)
So just.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:16.942)
Yeah, so if people, mean, the moral of the story is if people are in a tough situation and they're angry, I kind of wish, I wish I learned how to express it better to get actually, you know, the help that I needed. But especially with children, when kids are really angry and they have an unstable household, I think the better question instead of like, what's wrong with you or punishing them is like, how can we help you? Like, what's going on? What are they struggling with? Yeah, like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:44.074)
Yeah, look under the hood.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:46.871)
like what are they coping with with this anger instead of just blaming them, which I feel like I got a lot of like blame and punishment and this like view of myself as like a bad angry person when really it was like a way to cope. So.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:49.376)
Boom.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:01.32)
Is your view of yourself shifting at all or is it too early for that?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:07.022)
It's making, it's destabilizing. I think it's making me really confused what's real. Also, it doesn't help that my mom, I think probably listening to the episode, texted me saying, you're delusional and none of that stuff happened. So that is, so I'm taking space because I can't, I can't even, but it's letting me believe like, what was real? Like, was I really a problematic kid or?
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:30.336)
Cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:34.518)
Are my memories real? know, just kind of almost, I don't know, just I'm like fractured into pieces.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:38.848)
Does it matter if you were a problematic kid? Does it really matter?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:43.148)
I think it's that my inner voice is always like trying to cope with this belief that I was or am a bad person. And I know that's not logical when I say it out loud, like I know my life and how I treat people, but there's always a part of me that's like, I've had to overcome being a bad person. And then I'm like, was I? Yes, no. So I just, the view of myself is now feeling like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:52.096)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:12.204)
It's all muddled and I don't know what to trust. Yay, healing. So I'm doing great. Only took 39 years in cancer to get here, but here I am.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:13.278)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:16.736)
Have fun evolution. Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:30.144)
How are you doing physically? Has the hormone started?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:37.239)
Much better, much better. Now I'm gonna start hormone therapy soon to Voxfin. I'm really scared, because that's supposed to put me into menopause. So if the next episodes are me just screaming about hot flashes, you're welcome. do some hormonal, hormonal episodes. But I'm through the major part, I'm cancer free, and this is all about preventing it. I'm kind of like, it almost kind of feels like a,
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:51.866)
we'll do some menopause episodes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:07.104)
a new start in many ways, like new start to my body, new start to the way I see myself, new start to motherhood and me as a professional helping other people going through stuff that I went through. So it's like, it of feels like a rebirth in a way. It doesn't feel as like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:08.309)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:25.312)
amazing as like a phoenix rising from the ashes, right? It feels like I'm just like dragging myself out from the rubble.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:28.126)
Yes. Fucking...
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:51.456)
It'd be nice if it were more you pray love, but it's more you chid and yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:56.322)
Yeah, I wanna go to Bali and just meet Javier Bardem and then find myself. But, you know, we all get to where we're going some way.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:07.104)
Alright, well, speaking of fucking Javier Bardem, why don't we move into our discussion of romance? Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:16.662)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. this making me think about Vicky Cristina Barcelona, one of my favorite movies of all times.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:23.04)
Is he in it?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:25.548)
Yeah, have you not seen it?
Jacqueline your homework after this is to watch that movie. We're gonna talk about this episode and the next one is gonna be all about couples dynamics and problematic ones and Disconnection and connection you have to watch that movie. It's so good Vicky, Cristina Barcelona, it's a Woody Allen movie with Javier Bardem Scarlett Johansson Penelope Cruz and I forgot her other name, but the three most beautiful
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:39.273)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:44.852)
Cristina Barcelona.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:57.844)
sensual women in all sorts of ways. You have to watch it. Everyone listening, you gotta watch that movie if you haven't.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:05.728)
Tell me about the Pursuer-Withdrawal Cycle. I can explain it if you want, I'm motion focused. I'm motion focused.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:11.112)
You tell me. is it emotionally focused therapy? Is it emotion focused therapy? Okay. So, emotion focused therapy is this amazing couples therapy modality that you've been learning a lot and I just did an intensive training, I think it was last week. And it really, it was so beautiful because it just tied together attachment.
theory and attachment needs with couples dynamics and then what to do about it and emotion regulation. it really just like, it was like everything I was looking for and my mind is still blown from it. And yeah, you've been, you've been doing it all year, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:45.674)
then.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:51.367)
Yeah, I'm in an EFT rotation, so I've been working with couples for about nine months now and doing weekly supervision and didactics. I'll be honest, mean, the couple that I worked with primarily was extraordinarily difficult, and so my confidence in myself doing EFT is a little bit low, but I love the model and it's like, if I...
If I could master EFT, I would feel like a superstar. It's like all of my growth edges in one. It would make me into the psychologist I want to be. So I'm actually joining a practice as a postdoc next year with an EFT focus as well. So it's going to be big part of my work.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:21.048)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:27.586)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:32.738)
Nice, nice. Well, why don't you say what the basic model is or the goal is for EFT and then we can.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:40.67)
Yeah, I'm not gonna get too in the weeds, but basically the way I would think about it is you have a couple and they've been missing each other, right? So if we think about like any couple, any person is going to make bids, like bids for attention, bids for love. And the way we kind of react to those bids is important.
And what will often happen is over time or because of our dynamic or because of our attachment history.
We're not responding optimally to our partner and we're getting into a cycle where what's really happening emotionally is something like, I want love, I want to know that you care about me. I don't know how to get that from you, but I'm trying. But how that's expressed comes across very differently. It can come across aggressively like,
Why can't you ever do the dishes? Or like, why aren't we having sex? Like, do you even give a shit? Right? So it's like.
It comes across as really confronting and shaming, but what it's really saying is like, I have an unmet need and I want you to fill it and I don't understand why you're not filling it and I just want you to show up for me, right? And show me that you value me. And that tends to be more the pursuer. Like I am somebody, maybe I have an attachment history where if I wasn't the one to speak up, no one else would.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:18.08)
Maybe I have an attachment history where in order to have people pay attention to me, I have to be as loud as possible. I to make myself seen because otherwise I'm just going to go unnoticed. And so, you know, I'm going to go after it. I'm going to want to resolve conflicts right away. I'm going to be the person who says, can't go to bed without resolving this. We have to talk about it. We have to get it out in the open. We have to have this fight. Let's just do it. Come on, come on, come on. Connect with me.
You know, like don't move away from me, don't ignore me, don't, right, don't disappear. Like in order for me to feel secure, you have to be in this with me and you have to be communicating with me. And what the other person, the kind of withdraw in the dynamic, might be doing is saying, God, I don't know how to respond to this.
Either it might be like this is a lot of intensity that I like my nervous system can't regulate or it might be something like God, I can't do anything right Like you know yet again like I okay fine. I didn't take the trash out I didn't do the dishes, but like do you ever notice what I do do right like I just I feel like Everything I do is not enough and it just makes me want to hide and disappear and withdraw And you know what they're saying kind of underneath right is like
Why am I not good enough? Like, how can I be good enough? I keep trying, but nothing happens. And I'm afraid to speak up. I'm afraid to tussle with you because it's really just regulating for me. And I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm too scared of a blow up because that could fracture us forever. So their attachment history might be really different, right? They might be the conciliatory one growing up. They might be the one whose needs never mattered. And so they just learn to keep them to themselves.
keep quiet. They might have come from a home where people were really like loud and aggressive and scary and so they learned to like keep you know keep their feelings for themselves and kind of hide away with it. And so really you have both people in the couple longing for each other and longing for acceptance but the way that they're communicating is basically creating a moment of like uh-oh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:41.12)
Each person's as soon as that happens like okay. I didn't I didn't do the trash. okay. feels bad. This feels bad Okay, now I'm reacting from this place of like insecurity
and like, unsafeness, and so I'm gonna, and then that like, withdraw and sends them like an uh-oh to the pursuer who's like, my god, they're withdrawing from me again, they clearly don't care about me, they only care about themselves, what can I do to get them to love me? Okay, I'll just chase them down so they'll have to talk to me so this anxiety can go away, and it's just uh-ohs back and forth. Would you say that resonates with your workshop?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:14.922)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that they summarized and said, you know, the goal is, they call it co-co, which I loved, which is co-regulation and co-creation of meaning. So I love that they said that in EFT, they say, you know, the research shows, this is really sad, that 70 % of couple problems
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:31.466)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:43.64)
don't get resolved, ever. So what that means is like, you know, think about all the fights that you're having with your partner now. You're gonna have them probably 70 % forever. But it's less about what you're fighting about and like Esther Perel says the last lot, how you're fighting. So if the idea is, okay, in these fights, the problem is that when a couple can't,
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:44.819)
Mm-hmm.
Yikes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:54.207)
Yes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:01.194)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:11.63)
co-regulate, they can't come together and then calm down and really attune to each other's needs in that moment. Whether it's, whatever emotions they're having, it's not, when we talk about emotion regulation, I don't wanna say like, it's a way that everyone needs to keep calm. But it's like, if one person is sad and feeling disconnected or vulnerable or scared or whatever, what's regulating is that for the partner to see that and be with them in it, and then they create meaning around it.
So it's really that coming together and connecting that's really important. And as you were saying, people have different, learn different coping mechanisms to get that. Like the pursuer pursues, they push, they demand, they scream, they, why don't you, they come at you. Sometimes literally like walking, chasing that other person. And the other one withdraws, the void shut down freezes like this.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:40.394)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:45.428)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:08.75)
And I love thinking about this because I'm so sick of the way attachment theory is talked about in Instagram and social media. It's like, what are you? Are you avoidant or are you anxious? Yeah, like anxious people, they just need love and you just learn that you're good enough on your own and avoidance, you suck and you should learn to stop hating people so much, you're trash, right? And it didn't really make any sense to me because although
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:21.056)
Yes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:30.228)
charge.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:38.36)
people tend to pursue more or avoid more or withdraw more. to put people in like two categories or actually three categories, one's like, you're perfect, don't worry about it, right? To be like, you chase too much or you run away too much. That felt too simplistic to be real. So I like how this is talking about, this is your dynamic. is like you are feeling alone, disconnected and scared and you want your partner in it with you.
and how do you get that? So it's really more like what you're doing in a position than a person. Because what also can happen is if the pursuer goes, hey, come on, why don't you do the dishes? Come on, like what's going on? blah, blah, right? like pursues pursues and the withdraw pulls away and shuts down. like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Okay, fine, whatever. Eventually if that, so the withdraw withdraws and they,
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:08.958)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:15.008)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:36.461)
that signals the pursuer, my God, I'm being abandoned. I have to go chase, right? So it's this kind of like reciprocal, like, withdraw, withdraw, chase, chase. So it's like a cycle. And then often when that cycle gets so extreme, they switch. The withdrawor snaps and goes like, fine, get it, you know, like, what do you want? And then the pursuer gives up, right? Shuts down. So it's fine. I don't want to be the one always fighting for this. So.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:41.439)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:51.338)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:02.782)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:03.95)
there really is always like kind of a back and forth and as you said it's just like a pattern of missing each other. So, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:10.462)
Yeah. Yeah, I think the kind of one of the goals you're saying like the co-regulation piece, for instance, is there's this move called tempo. And this is kind of one of the major things that the psychologist is trying to do with the couple. So the first...
Basically what you're trying to do is say I like to call it the line of vulnerability so like Below the line of vulnerability is what's really going on like in your heart, right? Where it's like I want to know that you love me I want can I want you in this feeling with me so that you can help me so that I know that you're there for me, right? And the you know, it might be like that. Why why do you think I do everything wrong? Why am I not good enough? Why like that's all the stuff that needs to be communicated but instead is communicated
ineffectively, kind of above the line of vulnerability, that's like, why don't you never take the trash out? Why am I, do you just like, you just expecting to do everything for you, like while you're just fucking around? It's like that kind of stuff.
But so what you're really gonna look like is you're gonna, yeah. Right, so you're gonna like look at this, at like the latest fight, right? And you're gonna try to locate for each person, what was the first uh-oh? So this is the T in tempo, which is trigger. So like, when was that first moment where you go, something doesn't feel good. Something doesn't feel good and I have to respond to that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:16.046)
I've been there.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:40.864)
And once you can kind of locate that then you can start making meaning of it. And so, let me just make sure I get this acronym right. Sarayan. It's emotion, meaning protective action and organized, right?
Yes, that was right. Okay. Okay.
So once you kind of have the trigger.
you know, located, then you can say, okay, that was what started all of this. What did that trigger sort of say to me? Like, what was the emotion that came up when that trigger happened? Because then as we know, emotions have action urges and they propel us into doing things that maybe otherwise we wouldn't do. So like with the trash example, it's like my trigger was seeing that the trash hadn't been taken out. And the emotion that I felt was anger.
Well, the next thing you have to understand is like, what's the meaning of that trigger to you? How did you interpret what happened? The interpretation was, he doesn't care about me. He doesn't respect me. So it's like, okay, if that's the meaning that you're assigning to that action, then like, of course you're gonna be mad, right? And of course you're gonna be kind of attacky.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:02.728)
What was the protective action? This is the P. What was the protective action that you took because of that emotion? How did you try to protect your sense of self, your sense of worth, right? Like your sense of self-esteem. Okay. The protection action I took was I'm not just going to sit here and take it. I'm not just going to be a wife who does everything for her husband. I'm going to call him on it, you know, and I'm going to tell him that I'm mad. It's like, okay. That makes sense. Because you're worried that if you don't do that, you're going to disrespect yourself because you
already feel disrespected and now you'd have two people doing it instead of just one. And then the O is what the therapist does, which is just organize it. So it's like helping you to tell that story. Then you move over to the other person, right? So your trigger was being blamed for not taking the trash out. the emotion you experienced was like anxiety and the meaning you said was, I'm just never good enough. I can never do anything right. So your protective action was to shut down and not talk about it because you don't want to be further accused of this. And you feel like you can't explain.
do anything right then how are you going to explain it? You don't do anything right. So of course you're not going to explain it right. So then you're going to run and hide. Right? So that's a protective action. And what we want to get the people to do, the couple to do, is say, when I saw that the trash wasn't taken out, I got angry because I thought that that meant you didn't care about me and didn't respect me. And that made me want to attack you and get really mad at you and tell you exactly how I felt.
But I want you to know that like really that was about me fearing that you don't want me You that you don't love me because once you can once the other partner can understand that it's like It's not that I do it's not that I do everything wrong It's that she's really longing for me to show her that I love her and she's experiencing some of the things I do as As a real like attachment wound. It's not about like am I good at chores, right? And so then that kind of that's that's that vulnerability that allows the partner to then respond differently
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:53.582)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:01.046)
really.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:02.88)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and what you're talking about is a form of assessment, like really getting people to tune to what was going on in those conflict patterns and be like, okay, let's see that pursue withdraw dynamic. And the really cool thing about it is that it's about the couples and to stop blaming each other and stop like getting at each other with these hard emotions, with a pursuit like stonewalling and fighting, right? But to more see
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:17.344)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:29.855)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:31.339)
Hey, we're tackling this negative cycle together. This pursue-withdrawal is a thing that's happening and we gotta come together to figure it out. I also find it so validating to hear this model and because it's basically, gives a lot of legitimacy to the idea that when you don't feel connected to your partner, the person who's supposed to be your rock,
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:40.586)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:00.173)
your foundation, your literally partner, it's crazy making. To feel like someone doesn't care about you or someone doesn't see you, it drives you nuts, especially if you had an insecure attachment or abandonment issues growing up. So for this to escalate that quickly and to go into these default coping mechanisms and make sense. But what was so powerful in the workshop was that they described
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:04.714)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:30.636)
They took one day to talk about the withdraw, and then one day to talk about the pursuer. And I've always was like, am I more avoidant or am I more anxious? We've always talked about that. Am I avoidant? But it's really cool. They describe the withdraw almost like the internalizer, the fixer, people pleaser, the one who tends to be more like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:51.305)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:54.978)
They said like more detailed oriented and conscientious, but really I think it's more of this people pleaser, the one who has learned that you can get safety and your needs met by deescalating. So maybe they grew up in an environment where it was explosive and chaotic and they learned, okay, my job, if I need to get my needs met, I gotta calm everyone down, avoid conflict. And the fear that's driving that is
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:18.4)
you
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:24.59)
It's so sad. It's like, if we keep going like this, if we keep escalating, something terrible is gonna happen. There's gonna be, we're gonna say something we don't mean, something that we can't take back. We're gonna do something to damage the relationship or our kids or something. But continuing this escalation is bad. So what do I do is I freeze. And the thing is that,
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:32.064)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:47.444)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:49.271)
It might be obvious that the withdrawal, the freezing stonewalling is making it worse, but they feel like they're in, they feel like there's so much pressure, like they're walking on eggshells or walking in a landmine where they go, well, I know that freezing is bad, but I also think that it's not as bad as escalating, right? So this is like the lesser of two evils.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:02.175)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:14.89)
Hmm?
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:17.646)
but I feel like I'm trying so hard to make everything work and deescalate and keep everyone calm and mediate and I'm still not being successful. I'm a failure. So, it's so sad because when we did this like experiential exercise where we closed our eyes and like put ourselves in the position of a withdraw and there was parts of it I really resonated with but I really pictured Alex, my husband.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:30.346)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:47.31)
And I know the thing that drives me nuts about him is when we fight, I will be like, say something like just tell him like, I don't even know if you love me or like me, you know, and then he's just like, and then he's trying to take all the things that we talk about. It's like, okay, validate. He goes, I get that. I understand why you feel that way. Like, that's not what I mean. Like, tell me you love me. Okay, well, I do, but you don't seem to listen.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:51.636)
He's a super good dog.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:10.368)
that's so cute.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:15.126)
And so I like, like picturing myself in his position and feeling like, like I know that he gets paralysis around like when he tries to do the right thing, like he freezes when it comes to making the right decision. He's such an optimizer. And I felt like so much sympathy for him as I'm picturing like the feeling of like, no, no, I don't know what to do, but freezing is at least nothing bad is going to happen here.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:26.986)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:44.948)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:44.974)
I was like crying in the workshop. So that's a withdraw.
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:49.376)
that's so sweet. That's probably so helpful for your marriage, honestly. I mean, I think...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:55.575)
Yeah, I came home and I was like, I'm sorry. And he was just like, OK. Classic withdraw.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:01.342)
I think a reframe I've seen my couples really appreciate is both the pursuer and the withdrawer fighting for the relationship in their own ways. And it can feel when you're in it as if...
It's the opposite, Like the withdraw, like it's literally not fighting. They're running away. They're, they're just abdicating, right? But that's not actually what's happening. Like what you're saying is no, this is their way of fighting for it. This is their way of like keeping everybody safe and doing the best they know how.
What we need to do in EFT is to help the couple understand that these moves make sense and that they're not a sign of a lack of love. And if they are, then that's a different story, you know? But broadly, like, they can be an expression of love. And same for the pursuer, right? It can feel to the withdraw, like, yeah, that's you fighting for us, like you calling me names and, you know, chasing me around the house and making me feel like nothing.
But it is, it's trying to be like, let's get this out in the open, like let's do this thing, let's figure this out, like please be in this with me. And so really like recognizing like I'm the therapist, I'm not here to shame you, I'm not here to referee, I'm not here to tell you who's right or who's wrong, I'm here to help you make sense of these moves for each other so you can get back to understanding like, like we do care about this.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:29.784)
Yeah, always, they talk about this in the workshop, I always interpreted withdrawal as I don't care or like, like a rejection. Like I felt abandoned in those moments where I'm like screaming for him to say something and tell him reassure me and then he's like freezing up. I'm like, this is a sign he doesn't care, right? And it's kind of like all of Instagram will tell you the same. Like people are avoidant.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:37.055)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:57.451)
are avoiding real commitment. They don't really, you know, want love. But no, they're learning. They've learned that.
It's like the difference between like they're the benzo, whereas a pursuer is a stimulant. They've learned to stay safe by and stay connected by deescalating, by deactivating, getting things calm, not moving, going slow, right? So that really helps me reframe the way I see like avoidance or that withdrawal pattern.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:11.646)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:22.101)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:30.27)
What is your experience like as the pursuer?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:33.678)
Thanks for assuming I'm a pursuer. In the workshop they talked about pursuers as, I saw it as more externalizers, ones who chase, ones who use fight rather than flight, like go after. Sometimes in the extreme forms is like manipulation or control or pushing or yelling. So I think that pursuers tend to get more visible.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:52.362)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:03.79)
And the negative dynamic is seen in the pursuer. They're the ones yelling. They're the ones demanding. I identified strongly with the struggle of the pursuer feeling like they're the bad one. In fact, actually in the workshop, it was so cool. They brought in a couple and then had them do a couples therapy session in a different room and got it live streamed into our workshop.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:10.976)
I love you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:33.357)
to all of us therapists who are learning this. And it was really cool to watch because it was a couple, I felt so sorry for both of them. They had been therapy for a while and the man was the pursuer and the woman had a lot of trauma. So she was the the withdraw. And they had gotten into a fight the night before and they, you could see that they were just like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:36.0)
down.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:02.542)
totally dysregulated. were, they could not get out of the pursuit, withdrawal cycle. He was sitting there being like, I don't know what else to do. I don't, does she even love me? Does she want me? I, like, tell me what to do. Tell me what to say. I can't, maybe I'm fighting for nothing. Maybe I'm not, you know, fighting for a relationship that's broken. I don't know. And he, for an hour and a half, he was just like high, high levels. And then the woman,
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:29.664)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:31.426)
was sitting there like this. If you can't see, it's just like, she just was staring straight ahead, looking almost like disdainful, just like turning her head away from him and just staring at the therapist, just not saying anything. And I could really feel like he was like, please tell me what to do, tell me, fight for me, please. And she was just like shaking her head. Which one? Which side?
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:33.514)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:40.254)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:53.76)
I would go ballistic if that's what I was getting to, the withdraw. If Jason were like, had his hand up and he was like looking contemptuously and just silence, I would be ballistic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:08.622)
Right? It makes you go crazy. And the interesting thing was they both could not come together. They both couldn't, like, connect. And the people watching, all of us watching, there were so many more comments about the man. Like, he was so dysregulated. I could see how hard it was for him to calm down. And that must have been so intense.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:18.548)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:33.057)
And yeah, the trainer said like, yeah, that was a lot. I basically had to spend most of my time trying to calm him down. But he pointed out that they're both suffering. And I was like, yeah, were all of her attentions to going to the pursuer, the guy who's like making demands because he looks the most, quote, abusive and problematic, but her being silent is also part of that dynamic, right? Like she was not breaking. She was not.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:39.807)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:02.84)
that if you are begging and like what you've pursuer feels like they're putting themselves out there. They're like asking and begging to be loved. When the other person shuts down, it's like, it's torture. I really felt for both of them. But the pursuer is like this feeling of, as you were saying, like I have to fight for someone to love me otherwise,
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:11.924)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:32.302)
I'm gonna be left alone. I'm gonna be alone here. And they said like, when a pursuer gives up and stops pursuing, that's when you get into trouble because the withdraw is not gonna come, right? And the pursuer is just gonna give up its, you know, the attempts to grab and connect and reengage. So.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:35.626)
Yep.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:41.972)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:56.818)
It's very difficult as a therapist. You know, you're trying to give kind of equal care and you know that the withdraw in a sense has...
you know, in a way they haven't been listened to for a long time. That's why they shut down. And so then you as a therapist, you don't want to be just yet one other person who abandons them. And yet you've got this pursuer who's taking up so much space in the room, often interrupting, you know, wanting to clarify. And it's fun to work with a pursuer because they're communicative.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:31.576)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:31.634)
But you're really kind of trying to manage affect and help them make sense of affects so that they can share it. I mean, one of the best moments in my relationship with Jason, I think I've said this on here before, was when I was being kind of a bitch to him for no reason. And I don't even know if he picked up on it. It was kind of subtle. I mean, I think a lot of it was in my head, but I remember going in a different room and cooling off and then being like, like.
I'm being a bitch to him for no reason. I think that's because I don't even remember what it was because of, but like, I think it's because I just like really want his attention and I'm having to share it with his son and it's like making me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:13.39)
Sorry, sorry, hold on one second. Baba, I'll be there in a second, baby. I'll be there in 10 minutes, okay?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:26.67)
I'll be there in just a minute baby, okay?
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:27.767)
Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:39.758)
brushes my soul. Let me hear that. my god. Okay. Pretty awesome.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:41.056)
He just loves you so much. I was just saying, I had this great moment where I was like, like I'll go tell him that because like, I feel so safe in my relationship with him that I can, I literally feel safe enough to be like, hey, guess what? I was just a bitch to you for no reason because I was feeling like I wanted your attention and I was having to compete for it I didn't like that.
And like, that's the kind of thing that only happens when you feel ultimate safety in a relationship. Like I would never said anything like that to my ex. But that's what you want to create in the environment so that you can regulate, right? So if I can say that to him, then he can be like, okay, I'll give you some attention. I'm sorry, you had to feel like you competed for it. Yada, yada, yada. And then I feel my needs are met.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:08.536)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:24.64)
Mm-hmm. Sorry, hold on one second. He's just like losing his shit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:15.924)
Okay, sorry.
I'm back.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:25.276)
Do you find yourself more in the you find yourself more in the withdraw or the pursuer position in your relationships?
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:36.988)
I'm Pursuer, but... probably Pursuer.
feel like in my last one I was maybe the withdraw. Yeah. Well, I think that was inaccurate. I think I was just more interested in having fun than being in relationship back then. I think when Nick, I don't know, it's tough. I'm sure Paul would have said I was the withdraw. mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:44.002)
because you always identify as someone with a voidant attachment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:11.766)
I would say in that relationship you definitely were the withdraw. I remember like you would literally freeze up, right? You would like try to console him because he was more the aggressor of like yelling at you about something.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:17.077)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:25.886)
Yeah, I mean was with the withdraw because I was getting tons of aggression and I was out of moves. There was nothing I could say or do except for escape. That was the only thing that could reliably kind of calm him down. So, yeah, I think...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:31.084)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:42.698)
I don't know, I don't think I have a clear answer to that. I mean, it's always made me very anxious when I can sense there's conflict, but they don't want to talk about it. I think I'm more of the withdraw and friendships. But like with Jason, he has a pattern of like, he will definitely talk things out, but the next day, maybe I think things are resolved, but the next day he's like hurting from it and he'll be quite distant.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:11.032)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:12.008)
And that makes me crazy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:16.652)
What does that look like when you say distant?
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:20.136)
Like, he'll... Okay, we are a very, very touchy-feely couple. And suddenly, you can tell he doesn't want to touch me. Like, he will. If I, like, ask to cuddle with him, he'll put his arm around me, but it's with no enthusiasm. He doesn't naturally go for it. He'll sit on the opposite side of the couch. He's just quieter. I mean, I remember we got in this huge fight about Belize.
At the end of the night, kind of surrendered. He kind of let me have my way. And so I was happy, right? So the next day, I was in a good mood, and he was not in a good mood. And we went to visit my grandmother.
On the way, he was distant and cold. And then when we got there, he was like, great, outgoing. I was like, oh, this has cured it. Everything's fine now. And then as soon as we leave, he's like distant cold again. And it was just like that the whole day. And then at night, I had been trying to bid for his attention all day, like trying to break the ice. And then at night we go to bed and I just like started quietly crying. And that's when he's like finally reached for me and like.
cuddled and I just cried.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:32.99)
it broke the, broke the cycle.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:34.4)
But you know, with Jason, yeah, Jason really treats me like a, God, I can't believe I teared up over that. Whoa. He treats me like a delightful, object is the wrong word, but like something he's always just delighted by. And when he's cold to me, I'm like, I can't stand the image.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:45.912)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:02.933)
I can't stand the loss of that and like the new image that he has of me. So that really makes me crazy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:05.454)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:10.03)
What came up for you? What made you tear up?
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:13.732)
This is affect deepening, this is an EFT move. Yeah, I think any disconnection with him is very painful for me. He is my safe person and when I feel rejected by him then that's...
I don't know, it just sucks.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:41.528)
what goes through you when you feel like iced out.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:47.296)
At first I feel like I can overcome it. At first I'm like, okay, like I'll make this thing, like I'll be really charming. I'll be like really cute and charming and he won't be able to resist me. And then he resists me. And that's when I start being like, okay, fine, then I'll reject you too. Like I'll sit over here. And then that doesn't work either. And then it's just very like, I don't know what does go through me. See, already, this is the thing, I already blocked the affect.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:17.12)
Anxiety, anger, sadness, shame.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:20.074)
certainly anxiety.
certainly anxiety.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:37.118)
I'm trying to connect with it and I don't know if I can. I've blocked the affect. think, I mean there's...
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:54.336)
think that being in the bed, feeling very lonely and rejected is the hardest moment for me.
I don't know that that was as hard in other relationships. I think I'm so used to being his darling that when I'm not that anymore, that I feel like a very, I get like a very insecure kind of like, my God, have I broken this forever? Like, am I never gonna reclaim that sort of status in his eyes?
Like I'm very, I've never seen Jason mad at me. I'm sure he has been, but he's never like, he's never yelled at me, he's never been short with me, he's never been a dick. And I'm like, I live in fear for that moment because it feels like it'll shatter something.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:41.699)
Hmm. Hmm. Although in some ways, maybe it would be good. mean, depends on, anger is really confusing and I feel like it's often talked about like anger is a bad thing, but like, I wonder if that'd actually be a good thing one day. Cause like same with Alex, same with my relationship where he has been angry with me, but it comes across as very cold and very like, like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:49.045)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:09.942)
almost like kind of a condescending disgust feeling and which is really terrible. Alex. But I wonder, know, is some of the secure attachment and co-regulation is like being able to have these range of emotions together and still feel safe. Of course, not like if you're angry and like, you know, we don't want him to, you know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:13.073)
God.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:39.372)
start to get violent or aggressive with you, but just express anger in healthy ways that still stay connected. Like, I'm so pissed at what you said the other day, you know, like something that's, that has like a safety around, I can be my full self, even the parts of me that feel scary and vulnerable and you are there and see it and stay with me.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:49.258)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:00.094)
Mm-hmm Yeah, and I would it's not that I think I would lose love for him It's that I don't I don't want to shatter the illusion. He has of me. I guess I don't want to see myself like suddenly being Yeah, like a Like something he's mad like really mad at and like so mad that he's willing to treat me differently But obviously we're gonna have to get over that
It's part of things. I've been bitchy to him, right? And he's... I've never yelled at him, though. But he's suffered through it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:37.4)
How does he respond when you're bitchy? How does he respond when you're like pursuing in that bitchy way?
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:46.976)
He will... If something feels unfair to him, he'll say that. You know? And that, it's so funny because every time he does that, I'm like... You're not supposed to talk about how it's unfair. You're supposed to tell me you love me, dumbass. you're... Didn't you know that when I was being bitchy, I was just trying to like, you know, get you to like tell me that...
This is the whole point of the pursue withdrawal dynamic, right? Like, I'm pointing out, like, I don't like that thing you did. It made me feel unloved. you, you argue, tell me that that's not what's happening instead. He's like, that wasn't a fair thing to say. I try very hard in all of these other ways. And I'm like, fine, fuck you then. And I like lick my wounds for 15 minutes and I'm like, okay, fine.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:26.892)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:35.426)
Yeah, the fantasy is that you can have all of your pursue-withdraw defenses and the person sees underneath it in ways that, you you don't have to be vulnerable. You'd be like, can't you see that I was just saying that I want you to say I love you, you know? But then if you're being aggressive or, you know, pushy or, you know, stonewalling, then it's hard for the other person. It brings up all their defenses too. So everyone got their hackles up.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:41.172)
Yeah.
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:50.24)
I love it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:01.416)
Yeah. Of course I would do the same. mean, I'm very sensitive to like...
I can be quite sensitive to unfairness. try not to be, but... Yeah, I think why we work is that he responds very well to those things. I'm also very regulated with that. Like, if I sense that I'm becoming bitchy, then I usually am like, I gotta go. Like, I gotta cool down. This isn't good. I'm not gonna like myself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:15.597)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:33.208)
The few fights I've seen you guys get into, and usually it's like you're on the phone and you're like, know, like yelling at him about like making plans or something. And my impression is that he like apologizes and he's like immediately goes, okay, I'll do whatever you want. I'm so sorry.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:54.128)
Yeah, I mean Yeah, it depends I mean he has a couple things where he's kind of stalwart Like the travel thing but I will say he he tends to apologize for a lot of things that he doesn't need to apologize for in that That works well because that's sick signals to I it's not that I want him
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:10.978)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:14.9)
thinking that he's doing wrong things all the time, really don't. 90 % of the time I'm like, you really don't need to apologize to me for that. I was not upset. But I do, I like knowing that he's someone who reflects on his behavior and is like always wanting to make me feel okay and to like right the ship again. Like that gives me a sense of security.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:34.55)
Yeah, I also, you bring up a good point that over apologizing is like that fawn response. That's a form of withdrawing, right? It's a form of just being like, okay, sorry, yeah, you're totally right, just capitulate. Just like flipping onto your back and being submissive. It's like, yeah, yeah, whatever you want. And sometimes that's even annoying for the pursuer because the pursuer wants the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:42.066)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:46.282)
Congratulations.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:53.962)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:00.462)
connection. They want like a real person there. They don't want just like a, okay fine whatever because it's not even, it feels like they're not even engaging with it. It's just a way to like calm down, calm down, calm down. So it's tough when there's like an over apology. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:02.197)
Great.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:09.568)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:14.156)
And the little drawl will be like, what? I don't get it. Like, I gave you everything that you wanted. I said you could have your way. And it's like, I wasn't trying to have my way. I was trying for you to love me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:21.806)
You You want to give me my way. And actually apologize for things. Not apologize for everything, but just certain things in a legit, realistic way. Okay, fine.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:35.289)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:40.687)
got it, got it, figured it out. Yeah, it's a weird thing. When we did the exercise on the pursuer, I had this really intense insight that was kind of intense for the trauma of unprocessing. I was like, yeah, I'm definitely a pursuer. I fight for the connection. I fight for people. But then they had us picture what it would be like for a pursuer to
reach, reach, reach, and then not get it. And so you feel like you're all alone and you, you know, you can't fight anymore. You're all alone and no one's coming to get you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:21.823)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:23.182)
You're supposed to feel, I mean, normally people feel sad when they, you know, it's really putting yourself back in the place of feeling abandoned. But actually what I felt was terror, was absolute fear. And then I pictured my mom coming at me like she used to come at me when I was little, like chasing me around the house.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:36.16)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:44.02)
The ultimate pursuer. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:46.688)
Yeah, and the ultimate pursuer. And I imagine like the same kind of thing of like being backed in a corner and trying to run and try to... I used to... Like it was such a pursue-withdraw dynamic. I literally would run around the house trying to find a place where I could lock a door. And eventually when she removed all the locks and all the doors from the hinges, I learned to like climb out into the balcony and even to the side of the building where I almost died a couple of times, like climbing up to the roof.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:13.65)
my god.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:15.948)
Yeah, I mean, I literally was withdrawing. I was running for my life. And that's what came up for me. And I was like, my God, I realized that I pursue situations to make me feel safe. Like, when I would be in that position, I sometimes, if I made it down, like sometimes my mom would call the doorman to tell them not to let me downstairs and lock the door. But when I could, I would leave and go to my dad's house. And so I was pursuing.
that connection to keep me safe from the one that I was trying to withdraw from. So I was like, no wonder why I don't identify strongly with avoidant or anxious attachment. like, I'm both, I'm disorganized attachment.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:46.239)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:59.942)
fun! Congratulations!
you are forever branded with a D
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:05.528)
vote.
Nope, disorganized. I have a little bit of both.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:08.864)
because we are all categories.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:13.602)
But yeah, I like thinking about how it's so important for our survival and our regulation and safety to feel close and secure with someone. Like secure attachment with someone is such a key point for human survival. And sometimes we don't like to admit it because that's almost like, no, we should be okay by ourselves. Like, no, it's important to feel safe with people.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:30.805)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:39.732)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:40.002)
And then we learn all these different ways to get that safety. And sometimes it's counterproductive.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:48.094)
Yeah. It's 6 10, you gotta go?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:52.482)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:00.846)
Okay. In real time, keep talking. We're gonna look for the resources. That's literally like behind, oh, here it is.
Oh my God, there's so many. I have so many of them. This is so fun. Okay. So I'll link these resources, but this is, know, it's been the reverse. It's called Hold Me Tight by Dr. Sue Johnson, the founder of EFT. This is a really good book for couples to learn the EFT. And then there's like attachment theory and practice with Sue Johnson. This is a little bit more for, I think it's a little bit more for clinicians. Anyway, but I'll link these two books to.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:21.482)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:27.018)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:38.158)
the resources because I think they're excellent. Like now EFT die hard.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:44.434)
It's so funny because Sir Johnson, the founder, kind of looks like...
like a Dolly Parton-esque character, like big coiffed hair, southern accent, and yet brilliant. She's the total example of don't judge a book by its cover. She's like, this therapy is absolutely brilliant. yeah, getting Hold Me Tight, great idea, great idea for couples.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:07.758)
She passed away last year, do know that?
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:09.888)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:11.662)
And apparently, like, everyone loved her. They said that she was, a lovely person. So it was a real big loss. So... I'll be tight.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:17.268)
No.
Alrighty, well, we'll be back with another episode on this topic. I think I'm also going to talk about my dissertation maybe next week. So we've got some fun stuff coming up and if you would like to help us co-regulate and get to our vulnerable under the line of vulnerability, you could tell us that you love us with a five-star reading on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and a little comment and we'll see you next week.
