Ep. 145 - The Science of Co-Regulation: Building Safety in Relationships
Ever wonder why holding your partner's hand during a stressful moment instantly calms you down? The answer lies in the fascinating neurobiological dance of co-regulation – when two nervous systems attune to and influence each other, creating safety, connection, and resilience that neither person could achieve alone.
In this episode, we explore the multidimensional nature of co-regulation in romantic relationships, moving beyond the simplistic idea that partners merely "calm each other down." Through personal stories – including TWO exciting life updates for Jacqueline! – we unpack how healthy relationships support each other across three different levels of connection.
The science is compelling. Research shows that a loving partner's touch literally reduces brain activity in regions associated with threat response. But we also tackle the shadow side: when does the need for co-regulation cross into dependency, control, or emotional manipulation? How do we balance healthy interdependence with personal responsibility for our emotional lives?
Whether you're currently partnered or not, understanding co-regulation reveals profound truths about human connection. We're biologically wired to share emotional burdens, amplify each other's joy, and create meaning together. By developing awareness of our emotional patterns and protective mechanisms, we can transform relationships from battlegrounds into sanctuaries where both people feel safe enough to be fully themselves.
***If you're like "wow that sounds good, but I have NO idea how to co-regulate with my partner," then you've come to the right place- that's what we teach at KulaMind. We're launching our exclusive KulaMind community July 14th, which we're not technically supposed to tell you yet...oh well.
If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers, today is a fun one. We are going to continue our conversation from last week about couples and the. You know, the last time we talked about, like the withdrawal or sewer dynamic, but this time we're going to talk about how to come together, how to co-regulate each other, this kind of ideal state for for couples. But we're going to start the conversation with life updates, particularly my life updates, and talk about how my wonderful fiance co-regulates with me. Um, so yeah, Kibby, do you have anything to say about KulaMind?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:54
You just like dropped the bomb and then pass it on to me. Uh sure, yeah, KulaMind, um. KulaMind, we got some exciting stuff. So KulaMind, if you don't know, is our platform where we teach you all the skills that we're talking about, which is how to manage a relationship with someone who has mental illness or addiction or emotion dysregulation so how to take care of yourself but also strategies for how to communicate effectively and support them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:22
We are launching a group in a couple of couple weeks, in July 22nd I think and so we want you to join. It's going to be awesome, it's going to be a bunch of us, it's going to teach all the skills that we talk about. We're going to be really friendly and really supportive and just have a lot of fun. So if you're interested, check out coolmind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom. And if you're not sure what the fuck I'm talking about, there's a way to just book a call with me. Even if you just want to chat and have like free 30-minute therapy, like there I am, I shouldn't have advertised that. That's not official therapy, it's just, you know, assessment and consultation. Yeah, okay, over to you and the actual exciting updates.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 2:12
What happened this weekend? The first exciting update is that we can remove the disclaimer at the end of our episodes pretty soon because I passed my dissertation defense, so I will no longer be directly affiliated with Duke University, which I'm sure is a relief for them. Um, no, but defending the dissertation was a great experience. Um, everything went off without a hitch, which was a relief. Um, you know, my advisor was really great and like took us all out to dinner, um, and I don't know, it was just it's. I feel like I was waiting for the defense to pass before it felt like the rest of my life could start and it passed. And then the day after that, jason proposed to me. So we're now, we're really. It started life. You're really adulting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:02
Yay, oh, you really did. Oh sorry, everyone, I've lost my voice. So this is a great time to podcast. I'm gonna hack up every once in a while to just just regulate you all. You did a super, super good job. I know that you were. You were so anxious before and it was so funny. We like couldn't find the room that you were presenting in. We couldn't figure out how to connect the computer to the projector. I mean, it was just like a comedy of errors coming into it. And I remember you were texting me all sorts of questions about stats. You were like, oh my god, okay, why did I choose this statistical?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 3:44
plan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:45
And I was like, oh my God, you know this and also you could just read it Like what's going on and you were just. But it was such a good presentation. You were able to dive into the details and really show that you knew so much about mentalization and empathy and shame and borderline personality disorder, but also could make it relatable and borderline personality disorder and but also can make it relatable like you, really like we're talking about. You know being able to read the room, so to speak, and you did a really hard study. I mean, for someone who doesn't like research, you did like a really hard dissertation, like you developed, you basically did like a behavioral study of shame online which needed to validate, like a measure that you made up, a task that you made up, which is hard, I objected, say why all these things were not hard.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:36
But, um, yeah, I'll take it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:37
Yeah, you could do that Sure. No but it I mean it's just it was such a beautiful moment because, like you really have grown so much. It was like so cool to watch you from like the moment you came into interview, to like that moment, because you were probably as equally terrified and insecure from start to finish. But just like your mastery of this stuff is just really really amazing and you should be really proud.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:07
Well, thank you, that's very kind I should do an episode on. Is it actually possible to be proud of yourself, because I find this difficult to do sometimes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 5:23
I mean yes maybe not for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:31
I'm fine. I'm feeling the urge to like immediately discredit myself, which I don't know why I do, and I am examining that as this examination of this week is. Why do I keep discrediting myself in all sorts of ways that then leads people to think that I'm fully immature? Um, so yeah, thank you. I am proud of myself. I am waiting for the moment when it hits like I don't know, I keep waiting for something to like click into place, but, um, but yeah, you're Dr Trumbull, you know that right, you could.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 6:08
You could put on your everything. Can I or do I have?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:11
to wait three months until I graduate. I don't know what the rules are with that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 6:15
When you defend your dissertation that's like you get, you get it. I mean, you finished the program, but you, you got your, you. You know you passed your defense for your dissertation your new instagram handle dr trombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:31
Dr trombolina, that's really professional um yeah, I mean I, I feel I'm just not dreading anything in my life now. Um, in any you know major way. Everything that I have to do now feels conquerable. I mean I, I know that's not technically true for literally the rest of my life, but like in the near future, I mean I want to do a separate grad school episode, but, um, grad school is just, it's not even that. I think it's necessarily that much harder than other people's jobs. It really might not be at all.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:10
Um, I don't know if people have their opinions, but it just feels like it's a constant gauntlet. It's like, and you're evaluated all the time. Um, it's like these big milestones all the time and, um, they were just like okay, like once I pass that gauntlet, then I'll like be legit or like that gauntlet, and then I'll finally understand this stuff and to just like not have that be hovering over my head, except for the E triple P, which feels stupider, I don't know. Um, it's just really nice and it was also nice to end, duke, on a high note. Um, you know, I always kind of hate the school I'm in until I end and then suddenly I'm like, ah, what a lovely, amazing place. You know, like UVA is, is just enshrined in my mind as this like wonderful place, even though I didn't have that great of a time there, um. So you know that's kind of happening to Duke now, but yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:09
I mean, I think the irony is that I mean research is me search, right. So it's like your shame really messes up your experience of most things and it's also like taking away. I mean, like I I'm glad that you feel relieved and like that you don't have this like sword is hanging over your head, but you know, like you're so shame prone that it's just like you can't even be like I did a really hard thing, like I can do research now. You know, but yeah, you, yeah, you know it's not an intervention, we'll just leave it and you feel like, though, that grad school like makes this chronic humility problem for women.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 8:54
I feel like I was constantly told to be like humble, like be, you know, like don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:59
I don't know, I think. I think that's unfortunately a lot of industries. I think that a lot of competitive industries. I think that's unfortunately a lot of industries, I think that a lot of competitive industries. I find that in industry, I find that in academia, grad school, where it's like men are told to talk openly and not even told, but given messages and good feedback If you talk openly about who you are and the things you are and what you believe in right. But for us it's like check yourself, make sure that you're behaving appropriately, smile, don't wear this, don't wear that, like there's a lot of emphasis on us managing ourselves to please other people. Yeah, that's sexism, you know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 9:39
Yeah, I just think it was like unbelievably present in my grad school experience the amount of times I was told to like, yeah, behave, check yourself, like be more humble, be modest, tone down. And so then you know you have these big milestone achievements and it's kind of hard to then pivot and be like yes, I'm the best Sure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:58
I think you had a particularly hard time because you came in with a bang Like everyone's like oh my God, this is the girl from the bachelor, right? So like there's a lot of like image of you out there and image to shape and learn to control in some legit ways. Like you know, like pivoting from being seen on the bachelor to pivoting to a professional therapist is different and it takes like kind of intentional image management. Yeah, however it's, it was like kind of intentional image management. Yeah, however it's, it was like intense because there was a lot of assumptions poured on you because of that. So yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:32
Yeah, you had it harder in that way.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 10:35
Well, anyway, I don't want to blow our load for the grad school episode, but we can talk about the other exciting thing where the little next day, literally the next day, yes, jason proposed to you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:46
Tell us about, tell us a story well.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 10:48
So I mean, I obviously had an inkling that he would propose, because I'd already booked the wedding venue, so, and he had rsvp'd um, so I was pretty sure that at some point he would propose. Also, I designed my, designed my own ring, um, and I knew that he had purchased it, but I didn't know when he was going to do it, and you and him colluded to make me think that it would be in New York. So, uh, I was like kind of 50, 50 on whether it would happen. I was more like I was like 40, 60, but anyways, dissertation was great. He was originally not going to come because his son's driver's test was that day and then, I would say, lightly whined about that and he chose my dissertation, which you know I hate like his son getting screwed over and like I think that Kai is okay with this and like didn't even remember that that was when his driver test was originally scheduled for. But it was really nice to have Jason Cause I originally, like before you changed your patient, I like thought that I was going to have to Uber over there alone and oh my God, what a catastrophe that would have been, given that the location did not show up in Google maps.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 12:06
Um, so you know, jason like drove me to the dissertation and was there for me and we celebrated that day. And he told me like the next day he had some things planned to help me relax after the dissertation. It turned out he had booked like a spa treatment at like the nice, really nice spa there, and then they canceled on him two days before, which which, um, would make me ballistic if I were him. But anyway, so that morning, like, we went to brunch and knew a spot, and then he was like I didn't get you anything for passing your defense, so I just thought I'd take you shopping, which is just really funny because, like, if you think about things that jacqueline would like to do at any given moment, shopping with somebody else's money is probably top of the list. So he took me shopping. I didn't really find that much I liked. I bought a bunch of books and a jumper or a romper, that's it. And then we were, we just had some time to kill before dinner. We were, we just had some time to kill before dinner, and so he suggested going to take a walk in Duke Gardens, which, again, like should have cued me. Like why would we drive to a different town to walk around in gardens that I've been to many times and then drive back to the first town for dinner.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 13:21
But we went to Duke Gardens and we're walking around and I guess at this point I should mention to any new listeners here that I have really bad body image problems and, um, normally I kind of speak irreverently about this, but I don't know if that would go over well. So I'll just say I gained like 15 pounds in the last couple of years, probably because I turned 30 and went on Lexapro and it's made me really insecure, like I. You know I obsess about it. I'm like compulsively making comments about it, um, and I don't know how to stop. And, um, I think I have pretty strong mental health overall, but that is not my best area.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 14:08
So the point is we were walking around and he saw a like cute bridge and he asked to take a picture of me and I hated the picture. I thought I looked fat in it and so I started compulsively like making these comments and he sits me down on a bench and starts saying incredibly sweet things to me, and I thought he was just trying to comfort me because I was saying that you know I was ugly, et cetera. And then, of course, he's like saying these really sweet things. So I start kind of tearing up and crying a little bit. He's like no, no, no, no, don't start crying, it's OK. I'm like why You're saying really sweet things? But he thought it was because I was upset about you know, not being skinny, um, and anyways, then he started, he kind of like launched into even more of a speech and he used this tone of voice that he had used to jokingly proposed to me in the past. So at first I was like shut the fuck up, like okay. Then I like saw he like kind of paused and then I saw the like imprint of the box in his pocket. I was like, oh shit. And then I started like silently crying and I wish I could bottle up his speech because that was my.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:22
That was the best part of the whole thing. He just like said incredibly sweet things, um, I think the gist of it was like the best thing that ever happened to him. So it's his son, obviously, um, and I've just changed his life and I make every moment an adventure and his life has expanded so much because of me, um, and he has just gotten to have so many new experiences and, um, you know he's grateful for that and you know he wants to continue that forever and you know I love you so much, et cetera, um, so yeah. So he proposed he did not get down on one knee because it, uh, because he's, first of all, he's a thousand years old, um, and it was leg day two days ago or two days prior. So he's like I can't, I won't be able to get up. I'm just kidding. He's 41 years old, um, but he likes to talk about how he's a thousand years old because he feels like his body is always breaking in various ways, and mainly from workout injuries. So, yeah, so then we just like FaceTimed my parents and then his mom, and it was really weird because his mom was like the most loving person on planet earth, um, but I think because it was so hot and his face was like really red, she kept being like are you, are you okay? I'm like Carol, of course he's okay. He just proposed to me, like are you okay? I'm like Carol, of course he's okay. He just proposed to me, like, why are you acting like he should not be okay?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:52
Right after proposing to me, um, but anyway, then we went home, we got changed and then he told me he had dinner reservations for us and then like a hotel room so that we didn't have to worry about like getting home or whatever. We could just stick around downtown and like, have fun as much as we wanted. So then we show up at the dinner and the host is like oh, fisher, table for 12. I was like oh shit. So then all of you guys were there and you'd all look like coordinated and like a friend of mine from out of town came. Well, you're a friend from out of town, so you came, and also Sarah, another friend from out of town, came.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:30
So, um, it was super lovely and we just had dinner and stayed at the restaurant as long as we wanted and then went to a rooftop and then passed out in our hotel room, which was probably not the purpose of the hotel room as he initially envisioned it. But, um, yeah, and then you know, just continue to have fun the next day. That's so cute. But I want to hear how he was behind the scenes, because he told me that he ruminated at you and Rachel scenes because he told me that he ruminated at you and Rachel a little bit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:08
It's so funny because you're one of my best friends and I barely know him and it was like a nice time to get to know him a little bit more. Like we talked around your dissertation and um got to play a little bit with him.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:17
He got had anything, everything under control and he was just like kind of a little anxious about the change of plans with the, with the massage, and also the rain was going to happen I probably threw a a bomb in his anxiety where I was just like so you're going to go to raleigh, have brunch and shopping and then you're going to drive 30 minutes to durham to take a walk in the sweltering heat and then drive back to Raleigh and you don't think she's going to find out?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:46
but thankfully, but no, I mean, he, he seemed like confident and in love and he just it, like talking to him, I talked a little bit a lot to him about his relationship with you and his past relationship history Like well, we're waiting for your dissertation. And he just, I think that's that's. I mean I wanted to bring this up for this topic of co-regulation as a couple, because there's some the thing that stands out between you guys is like how calm you feel around each other, like you are clearly each other's safe haven. Right, there's there isn't. Like I hate to bring up your last engagement, but I I think we should actually look like listen to our podcast from, like from after that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 19:36
But you, you always seemed more like anxious and tense and like I got to make this work and here you just have this ease with him. And there was an ease in the way he described your relationship and like his greatest concerns was like in the future, will he have more time with you and how can he make that happen? Um, yeah, and I was like are you nervous? He was like, no, I'm not, I just want to get this done, I want to do this, I want to start, you know. So it just like, it's just lovely to watch you watch, like this weekend, of all these life events, and watching you two navigated together just like comfortable within each other, it was really nice.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 20:18
Yeah, it's. You know, my, my ex gave a fabulous proposal. It was outstanding and grandiose and everything I should have. I mean, I was grateful, right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 20:31
But I think there was so much chaos in that relationship that last night I was like going to bed and I was just like Jason's proposal was very simple and but I was like crying a little bit, thinking about like how sweet he was and how much I know he is kind of like fretted about not disappointing me and, um, you know, cause that last one was like a hard proposal to follow and I did not need a repeat of that by any means, but it was just like really sweet, just imagining him like texting everybody and trying to make me proud and happy, and how anxious he was about that aspect of things that he reported to me. So it was just like I don't know, it was just really sweet. He's just like such a good. He's such a good boy and, yeah, he's definitely my safe haven.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 21:16
Um, I mean, I used to feel, you know, I would only see him on the weekends for like the first year of our relationship and I used to get kind of anxious as soon as I had to leave because it was like I'm not the most, I don't think I'm the most anxious person ever, but, um, you know, when you know that, like the person who makes you feel safest in your world is going to be absent for five days, and it's just like oh, um, and I would feel that I would feel that difference. So, yeah, um, but yeah, I mean, I hope I'm not for him as well. Sometimes he feels like so mature and so adult that I'm like can I even be that person for him? But um, well, actually it's interesting thinking of like sorry say that again.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 22:04
And that probably has more to do with my beliefs about myself than anything. Yeah, the shame. There we go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:09
Yeah, that's, that's the next topic. No, I mean it's. It's really interesting to learn more about co-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:18
Trying to bring it back to the academic stuff um, from emotional emotion, emotionally focused therapy or emotional focused, emotion focused therapy, eft right when I think I thought of co-regulation or just regulation in general in relationships. I thought it was just calming down, right, like most of the research is talking about how moms and their stress levels help calm babies down. So if I'm calm and I'm holding my baby, it helps them calm down. So it's it's two nervous systems regulating each other and I just assume it was all about calm down. So it's it's two nervous systems regulating each other and I just assume it was all about calming down. Um, but actually when we learn an EFT, there's three different roads to connection. There's the high road, which is the honeymoon, fun, sex, play, right, high energy. Then there's the middle road, like the practical things you know, getting the day-to-day stuff done. And then the low road, which is being vulnerable with each other and talking about hard things and keeping each other safe and you know, yeah, feeling safe and comforted during some like unpleasant or vulnerable feelings. So it's really about regulating each other where you need to be on each of those roads Right, like so if you're regulating up right, you're like able to have fun and able to engage each other and play and make fun and joke and you know, like enjoy each other, but if you need to be in that vulnerable place, then you regulate. Regulate there by just like providing that kind of safe haven. So I see that in both and like, maybe for you, like I just saw it all this weekend, where I actually took a video of it so I'm gonna show you. But when you were waiting for your dissertation, he was like you were, you were so cute, you were like hugging and kissing him and I've never seen you that like openly affectionate with someone like you just like can't keep your hands off. You're like hugging and kissing him and teasing like you're. You like look like your body is drawn to him. And so you were like grabbing him and getting you know. And then he was like rubbing your shoulders or like you know, just like rubbing your back or something. And I remember thinking, oh, I going to remember that for the co-regulation episode, because it just he was there to like you know, like just be with you in that anxiety, not like trying to. He wasn't saying, oh, don't worry, it's fine, he was just like there with you and then also trying to regulate your weight concerns yeah, weight concerns, yeah, and you probably regularly you know. So those were like the low road moments, but then also the high road moments.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 25:01
He has been so like such the responsible one, like taking care of a kid working so hard as he is and he doesn't have as much like that play and the relaxing and fun that you bring to him. Clearly, like he said, yeah, she, she makes me do adventurous things. And like I would never. She took me out like our first date was on horseback riding and I was like, oh my god, why do I do something that high risk? But there we were and then my horse got kicked in the face, like it's just like. I was like that's so classic, jacqueline, and she's just bringing, like the, the joy of life to him. So you were regulating each other in these, all these different roads.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:40
It's beautiful yeah, I mean, I do. I feel like, um, the our play, the play aspect of our relationship is amazing. Amazing, because I do think he needs that desperately. He just has never given himself permission fully to let go and play and be selfish and take a moment for himself and I'm thinking about the vows that I'll write, and that's a huge part of it. I promise to give you everything you sacrificed in the first 35 years of your life, because he sacrificed so much, and I just want to. I want to make sure, when he leaves this earth, that he hasn't missed out on anything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:27
You cry Serious.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:30
So cute, serious, so cute. He. I haven't met many the vast majority of men that I hear about or meet who, for instance, you know, got their girlfriend pregnant when they were really young do not wind up being the primary caretaker and he wound up being the only caretaker, um, because she happened to die. But he like wasn't pushing for, you know, abortion, he wasn't pushing to break up, he wasn't saying like, okay, you have to do everything. Then, um, it was like he stepped up, and stepping up comes with a lot of sacrifice and I love him and I don't want his life to be one of sacrifice. He's still got a lot left, um, but I also really he, it's not just been one of sacrifice, it's also been one of suppression. He's had to suppress a lot of feelings and I'm I'm kind of trying to help him draw those out a little bit more. I, you know, sometimes I I don't want to feel intrusive, but I'm hoping that I can help regulate him there too and be like look like you know, your, your emotions don't have to be so scary and we don't always have to be having fun. You know, I'm I'm most honored, I'm most happy in the relationship when he opens up to me and talks about these things and feels like he can do that, so, um, so yeah, and he I think you know I do I like the idea of upregulating and have that and then and then having this like security and safety with the practicality stuff.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:07
I think co-regulation is really about, you know, attunement and kind of like understanding the needs of the other person in that moment and figuring out how to meet them and validate them. And our needs aren't always about pain. Sometimes they're about yearning and aliveness and and wanting more and being ready to meet that. But he is certainly an incredibly calming influence and I and I also think like he's done a lot to just make me feel like a good person. I mean, the reason I thought I had to make my last relationship work under at all costs right, was because I had like a low belief in myself to be a good partner, and that was um, fueled by how my ex talked to me, um, and and some other things. But you know it's it's a lot easier to show up in a relationship where you you feel like the other person fundamentally thinks you're a good partner. So I'm like, oh, okay, like I'm a, I'm a good partner. Okay, that means that I have the self-esteem capable of, like, taking care of him and, um you know, showing up for him.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:20
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. Like that, the natural part of you of being able to dive into adventure is something that he really needs. He just missed out on that. Really needs you just missed out on that. And I mean, I I do love that idea in EFT of what we're going for, what we're actually working towards in a couple, which is I like they call it co-co, co-regulation and co-creating meaning. So it's not this you're only happy and having fun and in love I think we've talked about in this podcast, like what is love, what?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:58
is romantic love. Is it that infatuated over the moon? Oh my God, I'm chasing them, I'm wanting them and desiring them. That's part of it. That's one part of it, but the other part is being I like what you said like attunement and tuning to each other's needs, even if it's not, quote happy and then, co-creating meaning like we're just like coming together on it and and coming up with our own shared story of what that meant.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:25
Yeah, I was going to say I think attunement is is is attuning to each other's needs, but also each other's stories and, like you know, coming together to co-write a story and basically say, like what is this future that we're designing together? Are we aligned there and can we make sure that we remain aligned? And there's a lot of excitement in that, when there's two people with enough compromise and enough admiration for each other, that bringing each other's stories in is actually an exciting prospect instead of a combative or threatening one. You know, like stories about how you want to raise your kids, or stories about how you want to grow old, or family traditions, um, how you want your house to look.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 31:09
I think jason and I are sometimes at odds about mostly the superficial ones, like how do we want the house to look right, but ultimately it's like what I want my story to look like is to have him in it and to be loved like this forever and to give everything I can to him, and so, like the rest being a bit of a compromise is whatever I mean. We want to raise our kids in very similar ways, and so it seems like the important things are kind of ticked off, but the rest of it is like okay, like how am I going to change my vision to make room for him? Um, and that's a creative endeavor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:50
I'm trying to think it's so interesting that both of us got into our current Mm hmm with them. Like even from day one of you meeting I remember you telling me about him and you're like I don't know, it just felt safe, like I just felt good, it felt right to kind of you know like go on these dates and see him more than I probably would open up more, have sex with him. You know just, you felt like it felt right and safe and it's just interesting because I don't know, like I think that, because I don't know, I think that that's such an interesting. And then I got in my head about well, we can't really get rigid with that, because not everything feels safe, right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:46
There is parts of our relationships that don't feel quote safe, like there's incompatibilities, there's arguments, there's points of differences, where it's heated topics or something like that. So not everything feels like oh I you know, I don't have to think about anything. But maybe it's just like I feel safe, being myself, being accepted by them and knowing that they, they, want me in that story of their future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:16
I'm guessing, I'm just like brainstorming out loud here.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:19
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, uh, the way I felt in past relationships was that if I had a need that was out of sync with my partners, that that would be threatening to one or both of us, that it would be used against me, like if I, if I couldn't express myself properly, or if I, if I, um, were angry or something that that would be. Just, there wouldn't be any acceptance around that, there wouldn't be any like desire to help me through that um, or to change behavior, because it was like we were in combat or in competition or something like who can get whose needs met more?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 34:07
who can win whose story can win. And here I just don't. You know if I'm, if I'm upset with him, I almost have to fight the urge Sometimes. I have to fight the urge to like tell him, because I know if I tell him he's probably going to make happy and I don't want him to sacrifice too much of himself in that. I don't know that he'll make me happy right away, but he has so clearly taken my desires into account.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:47
Yeah, it's much more a feeling of making a unit than adding one and one right. It's just like a really emerging of two, um, and instead of like me versus you and whether you know, and yeah, there you go, no, I'm just thinking about like it's. It's cool to kind of see how the science plays out in our relationships, like what we're talking about here, of like that unit and that shared life, um, I was reading about the social baseline theory by jim cone, so it's. It's. The idea of co-regulation is interesting because it's like it really gives a lot of like cred to we need people, we need relationships and love, not just because it's nice or whatever, because, like, it's a like survival mechanism where the idea is like, if you have two people doing something together, you're sharing the load, you're sharing the resources, you're protecting each other. One. One person can sleep in the cave and the other person can watch out. Right, there's two people to gather the food, hunt the food and cook the resources. You're protecting each other. One person can sleep in the cave and the other person can watch out. Right, there's two people to gather the food, hunt the food and cook the food. Right, you can literally share the load with each other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:58
And there's this beautiful study, I think Jim Cohn 2006.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:03
I'll try to link it to the show notes, but where I mean this is a crazy study, it's like, it's so cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:10
But he had married couples lay in like with the wife lie down in an fmri machine and she was just strapped to something that would give her an electric shock. That's painful, and so they're like scanning her brain while she's waiting for the shock. And the three different conditions are she's alone, she's holding a stranger's hand, or she's holding her husband's hand and and it's cool, like if you're holding your husband, if they're holding their husband's hand, their anticipate anticipation of the stress and the shock was a lot lower and even their stress responses were a lot lower attenuated compared to a stranger or alone was like the worst, I think, and it was and it was moderated by their relationship quality. So the more they had a trusting, loving relationship, the more they felt like, the more it actually like reduce that stress response. So it like like literally takes pain away. So it's just like such a beautiful example of like sharing, sharing the burden and sharing the stress of life to make life easier.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 37:22
Yeah, Sorry not to shame people who are single. I mean like it's also awesome to be alone and all of this applies to like best friends or other people who are single. I mean like it's also awesome to be alone and all of this applies to like best friends or other people who are close.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:33
So just just as a shout out for all the single ladies out there, Well, I also don't want to suggest that if you're not in one of these relationships, you're doomed. Like you know, the purpose of EFT is to get to this place, and what often happens is that people might have the capacity to co-regulate, but they haven't learned that shared language yet, and so they're you know, they're you know. What happens is that people, people learn certain communication moves. They learn to run away, to hide, to come to be combative, um to um, to criticize, right To defend.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 38:05
But underneath that is a different story, one of longing for connection and shame, and sometimes hopelessness or other really vulnerable emotions, and learning to share those. Learning to, you know, to be vulnerable. That allows your partner to respond to what's actually happening, and so then they have a chance of co-regulating you. Problem is, until there's that safety, it's hard to feel safe enough to open that up, and so that's what the EFT therapist helps you with. So I, you know, I would recommend, just if you don't feel like this is your relationship, to just get some help with it, because you can learn different moves.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:53
I like that. I like that. Sometimes people think that couples therapy is only for when you're on the rocks and you're about to break up and you need help. But you know, even if you're just noticing that you're not really there for each other during the stressful moments, you might be good at like the middle road stuff where you know you might be good at like the middle road stuff where you know you might be good at.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:12
I would say that this is a lot of my last marriage where on day-to-day levels was okay, you know, like talking about the, you know taking out the trash or whatever. You know we were day-to-day practical stuff okay. But like when you get to those more vulnerable emotions, when you start to see that the way you protect yourself in those moments actually clash and make it worse, Right, Like if you're feeling sad or hurt or shame, and then you withdraw or yell and that risk, that protection response, is actually like rubbing up against their you know your partner's feelings then then there's that that quick clash, and there are ways to just learn how to slow down and notice what you're doing to literal shields and swords. Then what's the likelihood that this conversation is going to turn into a safe and co-regulatory?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:05
space, right? I mean, you have to put these things down and come to each other bare-chested, and that's what EFT helps you with. I also really like that. You just tried to tell me that in your last relationship the middle road stuff was okay, like taking out the trash and doing chores. Yes, I did those things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:33
So it was totally fine. We all agreed that I should do all the day-to-day tasks and we co-created a meeting where Kibbe was just good at taking care of things and I was like, yeah, no problem, I'll just stuff down my other feelings until it bursts out in a yell. Yeah, that worked. Yeah, it totally worked. Yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:54
The middle road stuff is quite literally just like deciding on who takes on the menial, like it's just making sure that survival stuff is in order. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:05
I think it's just like who hunts and who gathers and like who, who?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:11
it just is the, the, the daily stuff, um, and you could see that there's some couples who don't connect on that, where watching, watching some people co-parent, you know like co-parenting is really where. Or when you live together too, when you share responsibilities, that's really when you become partners in like the job of life and you could see people who just snap at each other like they might have fun with each other, they might actually like love each other and be comforting in those like really tough moments. But the day-to-day stuff, I mean one person just can't figure out how to get the kids to school on time and get everyone dressed, and then the other one is like really upset and you know, like flustered at the schedule, right, like sometimes like the that is actually my biggest concern for my relationship.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:00
It's not the other two, because maybe the middle road is gonna be. Jason is, like you know, the, the commander in chief of the middle road and I'm a, you know, peon.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:14
Maybe he's the captain? Yeah, and you're going to be the second in command.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:19
I do not want to be the captain, that is for sure. Maybe with the kids, I don't know, but not with keeping them alive, more like raising them and making them smart and loved and oh, the fun stuff.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:33
Yeah, the hard part about what do I actually need to pack to go on this like two hour trip part.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:42
I'm not like there's so much stuff you know, I think, I think I'd be willing to take on the disciplinarian role because I would get super psyche about it, super child development.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:58
I know you. I'd like to say I really actually can't tell which one of you are going to be the disciplinarian.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:03
Yeah, I think he's probably good at it. I think once it comes to punishment, I don't want that role, but I'm hoping that, like co-regulating before it gets to the need for punishment is what I'll be good at.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:18
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, that bodes well. I think that that is such a great part of your relationship, the fact that you can co-regulate and comfort each other in times of stress, just because, like that was such a key part, I should tell Alex.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:37
It's like sometimes we we talk about like what we need to do better, blah, blah, blah. But I think like we we got together and had a baby really quickly and so sometimes our couple like relationship learning is like we were best friends for 18 years and then suddenly we became partners and we we sometimes like want to defer to the friendship, like we want to be just like kibby and greer instead of like co-parents or like lovers. Yeah, and I think that it's just I, I, I, what is?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:11
the difference. What is what is different to the friendship?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:14
Like well that's what I ask myself all the time in couple therapy. I'm just like, but like, how is that different from being, like, compatible friends? So I don't know yet, but like, but I go yes. So whenever they say, wow, wow, you two are great friends, but new to the relationship, I'm like, yeah, what? Um, I think, because there's so many different layers of a romantic relationship. Right, like, Alex and I can laugh together. We have the high road, we're laughing together, oh yeah, so our high road and middle road are good. We are practically really good together and have fun together.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:52
But then and then also, what's really nice that I only discovered while we had a kid was how much that helping each other through the low road of I'm stressed out about this parenting, like he's tantruming and I'm tapped out, his calmness can help calm me, which then calms the kid. Right, Like it's just such a biological thing that happens so quickly where, like I've talked about this before like you could escalate each other so quickly with the stress as a family that if you just have one person who's like, all right, let's take a breather, guys, let's all chill, then it really can interrupt the tantrum cycle. But when it comes to talking about hard things or conflict between us, like repairing from fights. That's the place where we shy away from because we don't want it to interfere with everything else. So we get a little like you know, little controlling about that, like, oh, I don't want to say the bad thing because it whoops up them. We're working on it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:53
If you think about it, friends are much more avoidant of conflict typically than romantic partners and different needs and different conflicts right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:02
Him asking if it's okay to go away for a weekend as friends is not an issue, it is an issue with us. Because it's okay to go away for a weekend as friends is like not an issue, it is an issue with us because it's like, you know, like yeah, so, um, yeah, it's just like can you? It's not about whether you have fights or whether you're happy or sad all the time, but it's like can you repair, can you be like, hey, the thing that you said was really hurtful, or you know, okay, so question.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 46:33
So I've heard the term co-regulation be weaponized before, where it's like I was really upset and I needed my partner to co-reg, like I needed him to regulate me, basically. So when do we know if it's tipped into territory where you actually need to take responsibility for your own feelings and not expect your partner to be there for you in every hard moment?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:01
I remember that, that someone asked this in the workshop, and now I can't remember exactly, but I remember coming in as an individual therapist into emotion regulation. We should learn to use skills to regulate our own emotions. What do you mean? I need another person to help me regulate, like? Isn't that dependency? Yeah, and I think the name of the game that we always talk about is flexibility. And I think the name of the game that we always talk about is flexibility, adaptability, right, like if you are with your partner and you just you know, go in like you're a little old couple and you just like hold hands everywhere and calm each other down, then great.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:46
But there are situations where they might not always be're not, might not always be available. They might not always be available to regulate you Like. Maybe they're stressed out too. So you know, if you're always looking for one source of regulation, that's going to be tricky. If I only drink to calm down, if I only have Alex to calm down, that's going to be a problem, because life is not always going to be available to you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:09
You're going to have to find other ways to tolerate that distress, or work with your emotions in other ways. So I mean no.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:18
I think that's definitely one piece. If you are incapable of regulating on your own, then there's no amount of co-regulation that's truly going to be a substitute for that. It's it's that is sort of by definition, putting a burden on the other partner, um, because then they can't leave. And that's actually how I felt in the past. In that past relationship. It's like I can't even leave the house. If I leave the house, he's anxious, and then I have to think about that and feel guilty about that and um. But you know, I think also like thinking about how your needs for regulation impact the other person. Like if you scream and cry at your partner and then expect him or her to then help you regulate, is that really appropriate? Um, because sometimes your best co-regulation is to be separate and that's not great co-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 49:07
That's probably like couples therapy time maybe, um, I mean, taking timeouts is fine, but if your truest, best form of co-regulation is to not be in the same room together, um, okay, so, like attachment theory and probably social baseline theory, will also say that they talk a lot about proximity, about being next to someone, touching like the study with the women in the shock room, like you know it's it's about touch. So there's a lot that is regulated through touch, maybe because we're just such, you know, empathetic, sensitive, like beings that that is just like a quick way to feel someone else's autonomic system. It's like does this person's hand feel calm? Um, but I wonder if it's also co-regulation, if it's like hey, I know that we need space right now and that's the thing that calms us down. Let's, let's go do it. I imagine that's a type of proximity like, not a physical one, but like an emotional one, where it's like I know that we're still together, even though that we're taking a step away from each other. What do you think?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:18
I mean I yeah, I'm sure there's there. There's the exception to the rule that I'm thinking of, like um Jason told me before we got together that sometimes he needs to like not cool down but like recharge his battery by being alone and that like the best thing I could do for him in those moments but just to be to let him be alone. Interestingly, that's actually not something we've confronted, but I think if you if both of you, you know have like those sorts of batteries where you're like okay, you know the way for me to feel okay again is to take space, and we both know that and so great. But I I guess I'm talking about fundamentally like if you, if, if, when you are in conflict or something, or when you have needs that are that are needed, you have to go away from yourself every time in order to regulate that. That feels like something that needs to be tooled with um, but I don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:17
I think there's a way to do that while being attuned and like to be coco in that moment. Right, like we could take space but still be like with each other, like attuned, like you would be, attuned to his needs of taking space, and still be like loving and connected and available and engaged emotionally, right versus like fine, I'm leaving, I'm getting out of here, screw you, you know. Like there's a way to take space in a way that's like with somebody, right versus like shutting them out. Yeah, and and I wonder what it's like when co-regulation or the need for co-regulation could feel like control, like I, I'm, I could only feel calm if you don't go out with your friends, or something right like yeah, uh, when is it co-regulation?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 52:06
versus like I feel calm in response to what you do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:10
Yeah, when you make your feelings the other person's responsibility, then there's a problem. I mean ideally, like your partner is there to help with your feelings, but to have to take on the full responsibility for them by modifying their own behavior every time, or in response or in like it immediately. Right, like in my former relationship, if he was upset, he'd get into the fetal position and shut his eyes and tell me that he was imagining me having sex with somebody else, which wasn't happening. And then I would have to say like, okay, like I'm going to sit here, rub your back. Like, please, open your eyes, please, please. Closing your eyes is not helpful, right? Imagining me fucking somebody else? Is that helping you feel better? No, okay, so let's open your eyes. Okay, I won't go out, you know it's okay. Like we get to sit here. I won't have friends that are male, you know? I mean like, that's not, that's like pretty coercive co-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 53:11
Um, yeah, I mean this, this is real stuff. I mean, I remember I remember being there many times and one of the first nights like it was outside of a bar, like you were talking about your time at the bachelor, he was outside the bar like, yeah, that's pretty bad. A lot of coaxing to make him feel better about it, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean I.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:31
But I, you know, originally, when I asked the question, I wasn't even thinking about him. I was thinking about a female friend of mine who was like, see if he had, just if my ex had just done this, right, like if he had just, like, helped me. Every single time I had an emotional response, then we would be okay. But the but the ex was overwhelmed. And every time she had an emotional response he had an equal and opposite emotional response. And as much and this is the pursuer withdrawal cycle right, like we're back. The pursuers like regulate me, regulate me, tell me it's going to be okay, tell me that you won't leave me, that's how you can regulate me. And the withdrawers like ah, this is putting too much on me, I can't, I don't know what to do, I'm afraid of making a wrong move. I've just the best thing that's co-regulating for me is to give me space, and so it's interrupting that to find balance.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:20
Yeah, yeah, I think it's. I think we're at it's a both hands situation, right. We are responsible for our feelings and our partners really affect them. It's the same thing as like making a decision together. Alex and I chose to live in New York. That's a hot topic. We both had the agency to make that choice. Yeah, our choice affected each other's. Yeah, however, we both have ownership over that choice. We both have ownership over that choice, right? So to be like that person made me do this. I can't feel good unless they make me feel better. Yeah, I mean, that's just like. That's just really ignoring the you of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:00
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, what makes Jason and me successful at this, and I, I mean, I think one of the things is like I don't actually require him to co-regulate me most of the time. I've got friends, I've got the bathtub, I've got a cat, I've got like healthy mental patterns for the most part, except for all the ones I've shared in this podcast episode. People are going to be like, oh, so I don't think I put an oversized burden on him and then same with him. You know, he has his family, he's a compartmentalizer which I, you know, I would actually be happy to regulate him more than I do currently.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:35
Um, so, yeah, so I think part of that is like, you know, learning, learning your own basic regulation, and then your partner is kind of the cherry on top, um, cause you don't want to become too codependent there because you don't, simply you just don't want to lose your, your own ability to do it. Um, but you know, really kind of like really taking responsibility for your emotions and realizing that your partner is there to help you with it to their, to the extent that they can, but they are not there to be coerced by it and ultimately, this is your, you know your responsibility. You're the you know, live together, die alone, but with emotions, like, at the end of the day, your emotions is the one is, it's what's lives in you, it lives in there and like they can help you as much as they can, but they're not the one that is feeling it directly. I don't know what tips would you have.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:30
Tips.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:30
I mean, I think from EFT what we learned is we talked about in the last episode.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:35
You talked about a tempo where, if you're noticing you're not co-regulating, you're noticing that you are stuck in a pattern of the pursue-withdraw or you're constantly feeling anxious or trapped in your relationship or feel like, hey, whenever emotions get high it's bad.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:53
I think the tips are slow down and notice what's going on in moments of conflict, like really slow it down and use a microscope to be like, okay, when he said this, I felt this and then I protected myself from that feeling like this, right, and then that protection mechanism did this to them, right. Like kind of noticing your emotions and how it affected them, yeah, and so just like taking ownership of your piece, but then also like I think, remembering, with co-regulation, your energy affects someone else. I mean, I really actually learned this in Thai massage. This was the place where I really learned this first, and then I learned it again as a therapist, where your stress, your emotional state and everything like transmits to that person. So sometimes it's not even what you say or what you do, it's just grounding yourself and feeling, I won't say relaxed, but feeling like grounded and present.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:56
And it helps that other person feel that way too, even if they're not aware of it. So if the other person's escalating and exploding, not, you know, just like kind of go with them, attuned to their emotions, but also know that your presence and your emotional state is going to affect them. So you know like, take a moment to regulate yourself and it will help the whole situation then locate the interpretation you made about what's going on and then locate the protective action.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:30
Then you have so much right there to communicate to your partner and also understanding that your protective pieces like aren't your full self. So if you behaved in a way that you're not proud of, like, that doesn't have to be something that has to be to take up the whole of your character and then fill you with shame and make you, you know, um, react even more poorly in response to that. We can I like I'm like obsessed with internal family systems right now but we can start understanding ourselves in terms of different parts and be able to say to our partner, like hey, this, you just encountered a part of me and I'm really sorry, and let's figure out how to work with that, but I know for now we've got to uh call time. So thank you all so much for listening to me gush about my relationship and we talk about romance, interpersonal stuff all the time on this podcast. So if you are interested in more, stay tuned and please give us a five-star rating on apple podcast or spotify if you like us and we'll see you next week.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 59:28
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