Ep. 130 - Transforming Defensiveness: From Conflict to Connection in Relationships
If defending yourself is important for protecting your self-respect in relationships, then why is "defensiveness" so bad? In this episode, we discuss "acceptable" and "not acceptable" defensiveness and cover strategies to transform those knee-jerk defensive reactions into opportunities for growth and connection. We talk about how to navigate the tricky terrain of criticism—whether it involves character slights or behavior-focused feedback.
We peel back the layers of defensiveness, from professional settings to the nuanced dynamics within friendships and romantic relationships. Societal issues like microaggressions play into our defensive behaviors, while empathy and understanding can bridge gaps in communication. We highlight the importance of avoiding character attacks and fostering a more open dialogue.
We share tips for handling emotional conflicts, the impact of rejection sensitivity, and how varying defense mechanisms—from primitive to mature—can either hinder or heal our interactions.
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Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00.954)
And by the way, you can talk about the you could talk about it and then we could just like cut, know what I mean?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:12.11)
You're out of focus.
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:13.356)
Yeah, really am. It said actual recording quality is better, actual higher quality, but how much higher?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:16.964)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:21.188)
Go like this. it's coming. Okay. It's just focusing on you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:31.726)
Hey little helpers, today we have a topic that is probably relevant to a lot of different people. The topic is defensiveness. In this topic, Kibbe will help me explore my own defensiveness and figure out whether I am truly defensive, how I can improve, and what we do. Like...
when we do feel like we need to defend ourselves but don't want to be called defensive. So this was inspired by a conflict I had with a friend. I'm not going to get into the conflict, but just thinking through my kind of emotional responses to it and how I actually responded in certain ways I think might work as an illustration of the kind of complexities of defensiveness and how we get to more of like a healthy defending
of ourselves versus defensiveness.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:36.738)
No I do.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:38.51)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:41.069)
No, it's this is the kind of term that has been thrown around. It's one of those social media. Now that I'm trying to get on this social media train, everyone follow KulaMind K U L A M I N D at Instagram that you know, you see defensiveness everywhere, right? Defensiveness is bad, but defending yourself and asserting yourself is good. So when are you actually defending yourself appropriately in healthy ways that social media is going to like and what are.
bad ways. I guess the definition, the working definition we could go with is when defensiveness is bad, it basically means that I think people are referring to when you are not a taking accountability, when you're completely denying that you had any fault or completely dismissing or invalidating the other person's perspective or not responding in ways that are
I don't know, healthier and constructive, right? Like when I think of defensive, I think of like, you know, your hackles going up and you're just pushing everything away, right? You're just, you just justifying a way that other person, you're just like completely arguing against what that person is saying and saying, you're wrong. Whereas defending yourself, that almost feels a little bit like offensive, like, hey, you hurt my feelings and this is what, you know.
I'm pointing that out. I'm pointing that out so can protect myself from your attacks. So what happens if you are getting defensive and defending yourself against attacks? Interesting. I did not have a good clear definition, but defensiveness bad, defending good.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:30.946)
I think what's tough is when somebody...
comes at me with criticism or accusation and wants me to fully just accept what they're saying, apologize and acknowledge their feelings. And I feel like the accusation wasn't fair or missed, misinterpreted me in some way or didn't account for certain things or was said in a mean way or something like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:01.306)
would hurt you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:02.19)
Yeah, and it's a trick because I used to be caught. used to be told that you always have to be right. I used to be called defensive and I was like, I'm I'm not going to be defensive. I'm to work really hard at this. I'm never like I'm not going to react. And. Well, no, I tried to acknowledge what they were saying and shift my behavior. And it I did succeed to the point where like Zach, my advisor, will frequently say, like, thank you for your open, non-defensive response.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:13.7)
They're wrong, I'm not defensive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:20.888)
Mmm
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:32.46)
And then even another supervisor of mine at Duke, even sent me an, she had like criticized me and then she sent me an email the next day being like, thank you for how non-defensive you were and like, you know, open to feedback. So like I've succeeded in some areas.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:50.98)
What did that look like? Then what did you, how did you respond in a way that was non-defensive?
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:59.756)
Okay, so I'll give you the other supervisor example. I turned in a report for potential egg donor, I think, and she said that... She gave me pretty harsh criticism. It wasn't mean, but it was something like... Only...
Like this is worse than like 90 % of reports I see. Something like that. Like it was rough.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:34.862)
Yikes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:39.478)
I did have a bit of a defense, but I said it very meekly. I was a meek with supervisors, but I was just like, okay, how should I have done it? like, okay, I was asking a lot of questions clarifying what she would want. Part of that was like the more questions I can ask, the more I can regulate the tears that are happening internally. But yeah, I wound up being like, sounding very curious and like not protecting myself. I did get too
explain like the report writing I've done in the past has actually specifically not wanted she wanted like a lot of detail and the report I'd been trained to actually write them very like without a lot of detail so that was me like clarifying things
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:19.354)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:29.356)
But yeah, I mean, with friends, there's a more equal relationship. And so I'm less likely to just be like, okay, yes, I see. Like I might be like, yeah, I hear you. Like, how would you like this done? And could you say it in nicer way? Or I just want to say like I've in the past, you know, done things. I've been asked to do things differently. I don't
So I feel like I succeed very well in being non-defensive sometimes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:03.78)
Can you give an example of a time that you've been defensive and what was that like for you or what was going on?
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:14.574)
So, KB and I were talking about this before this episode. So, we clarified that when I'm criticized, I feel instant bad shame. It instantly spreads over my body. I feel like my breath is constricted. I immediately, I can tear up.
And sometimes I can move into anger, but I try to be really mindful of that. But I think in response to, mean, it depends. Sometimes, because I'm trying not to be defensive, I will just sort of have a really neutral face and just get kind of awkward.
Other times, if I feel like there's an accusation embedded in it, or there's a misconception about me embedded in it, I will try to clarify. But I feel like I do apologize and try to acknowledge what they said first, but then be like, OK, but also, here are these other things.
In this situation, I mean I received a message that in many ways is very sweet, but I felt embedded in it were both misconceptions and accusations. And I found it very difficult to just be like, okay, like I apologize and I take all this in and I validate and that's it.
So I mean, I was like, I appreciate this and this and this. I hear this is the spirit of your message. And I am happy to adjust based on that. But I do want to clarify a few things. And then I went in on trying to clarify. And then there was this part of me that was like, also, I kind of feel like there were elements of the message that were unfair. And so then I was like, I want to point out that you haven't thought of this other thing. And then that didn't go well.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:26.512)
Because I think she felt like I was trying to bring up something with you and now you've brought up something with me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:31.195)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I could see the elements of what you're describing. I mean, I kind of know the details of it a little bit more, so I think it's a little bit more nebulous, I guess. But when someone is defensive in the bad way, it is from that reactive emotion of anger and shame. It's a little bit more like...
It's a little bit more like an emotional block, right? It's just like, no, I'm just arguing against what you're saying. in ways that might be like completely denying that other person's point of view and also maybe sometimes to hurt them back, right? Like maybe defensive and it just has a connotation that you're just like, like jabbing back without.
actually taking in with the other person or moving into a constructive, like, I'll do better, I'm sorry, like apologizing and taking accountability. I think that's tough when I think what you're pointing out is that when you either perceived or actually get this, if someone has like a shaming aspect to it, or like, this is a thing about you, which you and I have.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:36.814)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:56.655)
had before, right? Like I've snapped at something that you did, but included some like character level attacks, right? Like subtly or whatever. And then, then your defenses go up and you get defensive, which is like, but wait, here is why I did that. Wait, blah, blah, you know, instead of you shifting to like, I'm so sorry. What's going on with you? You're like, wait, I'm not this thing that you're accusing me of. Here are examples of
how I'm not this thing that you're accusing me of, right? So I think you're right that like character level criticism versus criticism of your behavior would lead to a defensiveness versus like a defending position for anybody, not just you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:40.759)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I guess I don't think that's the wrong approach either. Like if you're getting a character attack, then it's kind of like, OK, how dare you attack my character? And like I must, you know, I must now defend myself because it's hard. It's hard. think the dilemma is if you are told something about yourself, like if your intentions are described to you, for instance, I this is why we say in Dear Man, do not tell them what their intentions were. Like do not make assumptions about why
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:46.529)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:11.866)
they did a thing or you know who they are or whatever then that person is like well f*** that I mean I'm not gonna let that fly because you can't can't accept it because in accepting it you would accept a character attack and that's not something you want to move forward in your relationship with you know you don't want to create an understanding that
Like ADHD examples that you've kind of been upset with me about. If you make a character, I'm making this up, but if you make a character attack and you say something like, you're just such a thoughtless person, you don't care about me at all, but I was just like distractible or something, then I don't wanna move forward with the agreed upon assumption that I just don't care about you or that I'm a thoughtless person. So that feels like something necessary to clarify.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:58.331)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:02.274)
But it's tough because it's really tough when especially if somebody has an issue they've been hurt and then they bring it up in a way that then causes hurt in the other person. It's like, well shit, now we've got two problems and neither of them are necessarily being addressed.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:10.628)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:19.546)
Yeah, there's a lot of talk now about how important it is to take accountability, right? If someone's coming up to you and accusing you of something or expressing hurt or something, especially when it comes to all sorts of levels of respect and power and all the kind of things that have been brought up recently in our culture about like,
if someone's been hurt systemically or, you know, like microaggressions or something, and then they bring it up to that person, that other person's response should just be like full accountability and apologetic. And any kind of defensiveness around it is like terrible. Which does make sense in some ways, but I think you're right that the way the person
there's less attention to the way that person brought up those hurt feelings because there's so much language around that person's a toxic person. We just did this on our last episode. This person's a toxic person. This person's racist. This person's ignorant. This person is inconsiderate. They're oppressive, right? There's all these labels that are attached to behaviors. And you know what? It might even be true.
Right? The person might be toxic or racist or whatever. But then if you go to that person and say, hey, you're racist, you were racist. You were, you know, that person is going to have to. What they're stuck between saying, yeah, I'm racist or saying I, I'm at the thing that I said.
is not what I meant. Like I or I didn't mean to hurt you, right? It just leaves them in a place of like having to just accept that character attack. Otherwise, they're wrong.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:20.782)
Yeah, it's kind of a neat tangent to go into the political sphere right now because again, exactly, I think we're seeing a shitload of defensiveness from people who were told, you know, there's a whole bunch of people who are rightfully hurt, but we're gonna give them permission to make character attacks and tell you who you are and then tell you you're not allowed to respond. Like that's just never gonna fly.
And I think it's tough when you say like that, you know, another person can't be defensive when your offense strategy is kind of shit. So that's part of it. It's like, well, what do we do? You know, I'm like happy to acknowledge feelings and like adjust behavior.
to the extent that I'm willing, but if there's something in the offense that doesn't land with me in the right way, then I don't know how to address it without then being accused of defensiveness. So yeah, what I tried was to clarify things. And I think the risk of that is that it can move you away from the original point.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:28.846)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:31.714)
but I also don't know how you don't do that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:36.898)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, to not go into the details of the current situation, but like, let's say...
Yeah, let's say for example, we had a conflict over... I was freaking out about the cancer diagnosis and you were asking for help and I couldn't be in a place where I could help and also I couldn't tell you why. And I was super sensitive to my deep core fear that if I'm not...
like helpful or people or don't respond to people right away that they're just like gonna reject me and they're not gonna care how I feel about that. like in the moment when we talk through it, let's say, and I'm saying this is not a criticism, so don't have to get defensive over this, but like when if I'm trying to, if I'm saying like I said something
I was like, this is not about you essentially. Like why are you paying attention to only like your feelings and it's not the most important thing. And then you got hurt and withdrew. And then when we talked about it, if...
if it was focused on, you would naturally defend yourself. Like, I thought I asked you about that. I approached that the way because of this and I thought this and blah, blah, blah, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:24.12)
then that almost like...
leaves, how do I, I'm trying to make a succinct point, but there's just so many layers. Then it does take the attention away from my hurt feelings, right? Like it just kind of like says, well, I acted this way because I had all these other things going on in my head. Or you were acting this way, right? So it's just, when you get into a back and forth, it does,
draw the attention away from the hurt and anger that I was feeling in that moment. Appropriately so because the way I expressed it was not effective, right? But if I still, but if I wanted you to take in something that was feeling or feeling hurt,
I would have to make it, I would have to express it in a way that was less character attacking.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:27.182)
Yeah, I mean, well, for one thing, it's difficult to validate feelings if I feel like they are based on an incorrect presumption. So if you were saying, like, I'm hurt because you didn't care about me in that moment, then it's hard for me not to say, it's not that I didn't care about you, it's that I didn't know this was going on with you, and I had a totally different perception of the situation. So it's tough because I don't want to validate something that's, I mean, your feelings are real, but they're based off of something that is
Not what's going on because I don't want you to think I don't care about you like that's not that's not what was happening So if you're hurt that I don't care about you, then I need to clarify that like that's not what happened
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:07.418)
You know what? I think like a super masterful move that would have something that probably I was like hoping that would happen that is on a reasonable response, unreasonable wish on my end is when I explain what I was going through, like the pain that led to me lashing out at you for you to almost prioritize that.
over how shitty I was in that moment, which is unreasonable. For example, like I was like in a deep state of panic and I said mean things and like a super non-defensive response would have been like, gosh, like you're right. The thing that you said to hurt my feelings is like pales in comparison, right? And almost like.
that would make me hopeful that someone's more like immature on my part, that the way I express that pain would be overlooked, considering the gravity of the pain and the severity of the pain. Does that make sense? Like me lashing out and being shitty around the time that I have cancer, like should get a pass for me, right? And my friend should be like, well, she didn't...
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:21.132)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:33.6)
she was a terrible friend or she acted all these terrible ways but like you know given what she was going through it makes sense right that that what does this say about defensiveness i don't know they're just going into going into my feelings now but
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:45.312)
I'm not noticing any shame in myself, but I'm already noticing like, but I thought that that is what I eventually did. But then I think more. So I'm already noticing this urge to like clarify or like, because in a way, like you're not wrong. Like, yeah, I mean, cancer did trump that it did explain everything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:57.197)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:07.534)
and but it is hard when also it's just hard to be a punching bag and figure out like okay like how do i like deal with the bruises and like come towards the person punching me
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:16.046)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, no, and that's ultimately why we resolved it because I feel like we did talk about like that conflict in that moment. But then I did feel like you were like showed up as my friend, you know, past that point, right? So I think if I think if your focus stayed on that, then that would have been like, man, she's just so defensive that.
like me lashing out during a time of need, like you would collapse into that shame and only thought about that. That would have been tough because then when someone is really, really defensive and really rejection sensitive and sensitive to criticism, it makes it hard to bring up things in any kind of concern with that.
person because then you're like, I, you almost kind of treat them like fragile, right? You like, walking eggshells around them, trying not to upset them, which kind of, because if you upset them, then they either lash out or withdraw and then you lose the relationship. So sometimes when people are really rejecting sensitive, you end up being like almost coddling their, like protecting their ego in a way that doesn't feel like an equitable relationship. So.
I think that's the tough part about defensiveness is like, it does almost change the power balance, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:48.758)
sure yeah I this is just that dilemma I'm left with like I you know I
If I do experience like really quick and intense shame, then I feel like my only choice is to internally regulate that. That takes time. And during that time, I tend to shut down a little bit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:10.596)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:21.05)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:21.718)
And I'm trying to maintain presence, but it's difficult to do that perfectly while regulating. Like it's difficult to lean into, like with the supervisor, you I lean in like curiosity, technically. I wouldn't say that I was necessarily feeling very curious. I just like tried to behaviorally be curious. But.
I think you know when like friends bring up something what they might get is like me getting kind of quiet and awkward because I'm trying to like you know I'm trying to regulate and they are pick up on that and understand that my feelings are hurt and they're not gonna want to bring things up but I don't know what to do differently because I can't just automatically like make that emotion disappear
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:53.818)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:06.114)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I'm no long... I personally don't feel that...
Sorry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:21.112)
I think that the defensive, if you had a defensive reaction that I had problems with, I would be afraid that if I bring anything up, that it would really threaten the relationship. I think that's where unhealthy defensiveness is a thing where it's it's emotional, it's reactive. It's so emotionally reactive that it blocks the reality of the situation, right? Like,
Someone going, God, it's all my fault, fine, I'm the worst. That, that.
That emotional reaction is like ironically defend, like it looks vulnerable, but it defends against any kind of change, any kind of like, you know what? I'm so sorry. I did this thing. It was crappy. I'll do better next time. Right? That's like the accountability that people are looking for, but that's more of a guilt place. That's more of like, I'm feeling guilt and I'm...
going to apologize and rectify when someone feels shame, there's really nothing you can do except for being like, okay, I'll hide and I'll leave or stop being myself, right? So I think the guilt shame level is what makes a difference.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:38.892)
Yeah, I think one thing that makes it tough for me is like, we know that anger is a secondary emotion to shame. And so I'll often get mad at accusations or something or criticism. And then I have to be like, I have to get real honest with myself and say, is this shame or is this justified anger?
And that can take a while too. Because sometimes that can, sometimes I think it is justified anger, but I tell myself it's shame and I'm not allowed to get angry and so then I'm...
myself in healthy ways. It's just such a rat's nest. Like, if someone brings up a criticism, if they don't do that well, then defensiveness is probably going to come.
They can't always do it perfectly. Their feelings are hurt too. And it's a complicated thing to come at somebody and criticize them. And that's a scary thing. And so how do we navigate this thing where the person receiving the criticism is like, well, that was an ineffective way to come at me. I don't feel like I can ignore that. I guess my strategy has usually been to validate and apologize, but then also address all the other stuff.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:05.838)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:09.486)
I think my mind is still stuck on the shame guilt difference because
This is not about you. just now just kind of puzzling over this. If I'm at a place where I feel like where I jump out and say like a character attack, right? Like I did with you.
I that is a product of bottling something up or or assuming that that behavior is part of their character. Right. It's not just like if if someone does something that pisses me off and I'm just like, you did this thing that hurt me. But if I'm just like, this has been happening.
over and over again, I feel powerless to change it or they, or I assume that person's not willing or not going to change it. Now here I am, here's my anger about it. You do this thing and you are this thing, right? It's beyond like you did something to hurt me, is that you've hurt me like this so many times that I feel like this is just who you are now. And then that other person has to just like then somehow take that character attack and do something with it that's
healthy. You know, so it just, leaves it. What is the solution? The solution is to talk earlier about this stuff, which that was like the conclusion of our conversation was like next time something comes up, like say it because I don't know you need help until you're like at a breaking point, right? Because when I'm at my breaking point, I've gotten in my head that like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:26.632)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:50.391)
No one cares and no one's gonna help me and I'm totally alone and no one gives a shit about me. Where I've gotten to like character level everyone and everything doomsday, right? Instead of like earlier on like, hey, this distinct thing that happened hurt my feelings. Can you do something different next time?
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:08.878)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're almost in the mode now of like, do you go? How do you offense instead of how do you defense? Because part of it is like, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:17.314)
Mm-hmm, yeah, think, yeah, it's really the other person's fault if you're defensive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:25.786)
That's what we're saying.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:26.766)
Yeah. I mean, like people are going to get defensiveness in the face of like healthy offensives too. We've got so many problems.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:40.815)
What do you think that in this current conflict that you were feeling like, do you feel like a character attack in there? that, because right now I think what we're kind of stumbling on is this hypothesis or like this kind of conceptualization that defensiveness is gonna come up when you feel like shamed, right? And like with a character attack. And so you naturally feel like this shame anger response.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:10.016)
No, I would feel a shame response too in a situation where it would be more appropriate to feel guilty.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:15.994)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:16.62)
Like, people can bring up a legitimate thing in a nice way and I might still feel ashamed. just, I hope, I mean, yeah, I don't think that I insult back or I really don't like hurting people's feelings. So I'm not likely to say like, you said this to me, now I'm going to be a bitch, now I'm going to try to make you feel bad. So my defensiveness is much more like, I don't agree with the premises. And so I'm going to clarify and then that can distract away from like validating the initial point.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:21.134)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:32.27)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:46.496)
And then the other way it can come up is just me not like me attempting to regulate to the point where I kind of shut down and then again that other person doesn't feel validated or they feel like they now have to take care of me. But I think you know a lot of people will they cannot they cannot take the fact that something is wrong with them or that they are perceived to have done something wrong and so they will find a way to annihilate the person making them feel that way.
that's true toxic defensiveness, know, distracting with a whole bunch of other things. You know, but I certainly like, when I feel as if somebody else has perceived that I've done something wrong, I don't like that feeling. It doesn't mean that like shame is justified, might mean that guilt is justified, but that's still tough. I don't know, I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:33.338)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:45.006)
It's hard for me to know because I feel like what often happens is that...
Maybe even if they don't say what my intentions were, I might try to be like, it wasn't my intention to do that. Like my intention was this other thing that this happened. And is that defensiveness or is it like trying to bring clarity to the situation? cause a lot of times I feel like I'm actually trying to make the other person feel better because as I said, with the whole, you don't care about me example, I don't want that to be the conclusion that we agree upon, right? I want it to be like, okay, I did this wrong thing and I'm really sorry, but like, just so you know, it didn't come from the place that maybe you're assuming it did.
like this happened because I was like overwhelmed with XYZ or my mind was on something else and I think that can be frustrating to people because they're like yeah I don't really give a shit just don't do that again.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:34.788)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:44.602)
What was I thinking about? There were two thoughts.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:01.978)
Okay, so let's say.
This is at risk of bringing up your defensiveness. But I mentioned it before, so I hope it's safe territory. But when you are focused on something, maybe this is your ADHD quality or whatever, you are really focused on it. If it's a person or it's a thing that you want, you have laser beams to it. I think that's sometimes where you show the most enthusiasm.
But you have a lot of things in your life that you love, but that one thing will get your laser beam attention, right? And so if, let's say, you're laser beaming and then it makes you overlook something with us or plans or in some other way that you're literally not thinking about, let's say me or my friendship or whatever in that moment.
then I'm going to say that maybe I would attack you and be like, hey, what you did maybe feel like you're really inconsiderate. You didn't consider me. You didn't value me. You I felt like nothing to you or whatever. Right. And then for you, you know that you care about that person. You care about me. Right. And you think about me or do other things that I might even notice or take for granted that you show like different kinds of care.
but not in that moment when you were laser focused on something else, right? So I think the tough part is like, if you say, if I say, hey, when you completely ignored me in that moment, like, I feel like I don't matter to you. You're like, wait a minute, I do look at all these other things I did. But maybe that, maybe it's that that needs to also be balanced with, shit, I did overlook you in that moment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:04.09)
I was focused on something else and I really love you and look at all these other things I do to show you I care. But yeah, in that moment, I probably made you feel small and overlooked. Right? that kind of like adding in the validation because if it's just like, no, I do care. What are you being crazy? Like that kind of defensiveness and like completely ignoring that other person's perspective, then it would be like,
Well, okay, fine. Then she doesn't see that sometimes she could be inconsiderate. Does that make sense? Or do you feel just like totally defensive right now? Totally ashamed.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:37.996)
Yeah. No, I'm trying to think if that's like, is that not what I do? Because that's I feel like that's what I try to do. Maybe I'm not doing it effectively. It's so funny, by the way, because I don't experience myself as having those laser beam. But my producer on The Bachelor said the same thing. He's like, you're like a lighthouse. Whenever the light touches, has your full focus and then it's constantly shifting. that's so interesting. I don't really.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:01.154)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the things that you're most secure in and love might not get that laser beam, right? Like, you might be talking, I mean, we both have that quality in our friendship, or both of us might be obsessing or fixating on some goal or thing that we want, but we're talking all day, right? So that's inherent to like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:11.425)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:29.146)
Clearly we're friends and clearly we value each other, but we're talking about other things, right? So that might come across differently to other people, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:38.422)
Yeah, it isn't, I mean, I've heard this too, is that like, yeah, my focus goes to the thing that's not secure. It's kind of cool. And I often do feel like I'm playing, not whack-a-mole, but like, hug-a-mole.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:47.576)
Uh-huh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:57.324)
Like with, you know, if friendships and trouble, it's like, OK, my focus goes there. Like something's going on. My focus goes there. And I mean, this is all this isn't really on the topic of defensiveness. But one thing that I've felt before is like I have a lot of friends and I'm trying to manage a lot of friendships at the same time. And it's it's difficult sometimes to hear like, you're not valing, mean, because I'm like, I'm kind of spread thin. But like, OK, now that you bring it up, like attention.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:02.095)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:24.186)
I just have so many friends that are taking my attention, but like, it's really tough, yeah. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:28.46)
I know that came across that way, that's bad. No, but I think it's, I've thought about like what happens when I become a mother. I mean, you must feel like you don't have much attention to put into like your relationships as you did before. And if there's a complaint then, then it's difficult because your attention is really going into.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:55.267)
Yeah, but you get a past being a mom because if you focus everything on the kid, people are just like, well, yep, that makes sense. Right. But when you're dealing with friends, you know, I think like that might be why with your past relationship, that was a point of contention because you you'll be focusing on like a plans with someone else. And then he'd be like, what about me? You didn't even think about me because there are inherent expectations in a relationship that like that person's the laser focus.
And I don't know, like maybe the times when you've been collapsed into shame, you either like don't say anything and don't maybe say the thing that the person's actually looking for, which is like, I love you so much. Here is my laser focus now. You've got it, right? Like that's what they're actually looking for. But be getting caught in the defending like.
but wait, you're wrong, here are all these other ways I care about you, ironically might feel even more invalidating, which is weird, because then you're kind of defending how much you care about that person. This is a convoluted episode.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:05.902)
Well, Well, think it's why we did it was because being accused of defensiveness is convoluted because I'm kind of like, OK, well, if you tell me I'm defensive, then I'm no longer allowed to defend myself. And then I feel like I can't participate in this conversation. But if I can't participate in the conversation, then we're not getting anywhere. And then you feel more invalidated. But if I can't agree with the premises and I don't agree with the interpretations you're making about my behavior.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:21.038)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:34.486)
then I can't validate it because then I'd be validating something that is a misunderstanding. And so I don't know.
I try to find something to validate, but it really doesn't work very well. But I understand if I point out like here are all the other ways that I show you I care, then they're kind of like, well shit, like I guess she's saying I didn't have the right to bring up this thing that I'm upset about, and she's pulling attention away from this issue.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:05.282)
Right, and then the person doesn't know how to handle their feelings of hurt in that moment. Right, like, I mean, this happens in relationship all the time where you might be in a partnership and you're showing each other like ways of loving each other. But if someone misses the anniversary, then it's like, that really hurt and you don't care about me. And then if that person brings up the, well, I do this for you and that for you, that for you, then it's like, okay, so.
I should not be upset about this thing that hurt my feelings. So I think we're just layering on more complications to this.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:43.084)
I know, because even with that example, I'm like, yeah, because the person on the offense said, you don't care about me. So that person's immediately going to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:49.315)
Right, I think the issue is the character attack, right? I think that it's really hard for people to come back from character attacks and not get defensive. And the only thing that they can do is say, you're right, I'm bad, I'm this crappy thing that you said, I will do better, you know? But then, like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:58.221)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:17.924)
I know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:18.222)
Okay, but what if, okay, but what if it's even something simple like Jason is caught up with work or something and he doesn't come home and I'm like, I was really hurt by this, you know, like I wish you'd come home, yada, yada, yada. And then his only response is like, babe, I had no choice. Like, I...
I'm not making a character attack. guess he could, but I am blaming him for something. I'm not, what I'm not doing is saying, God, I wish you were home. I really miss you. It just sucked. I understand that you were stuck there, but just suck for me. Cause I, I just wanted to be with you, right? Which would be very easy to take in versus like, how could you not come home?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:04.974)
No, I'm still sticking on the shame versus guilt and like the building up because in that moment, if you were, if he didn't come home and you got really upset, more often than not, that was probably a series of behaviors.
Unless there's something really special, like you made dinner, like a special thing and it was really a big deal that he missed that one thing. But usually people lash out and get like criticized or angry because it's a pattern of behavior. But then people on the defensive side defend their actions in that moment. They treat the criticism like they're dealing with that particular behavior.
Whereas the other person's like, you've missed several dinners in a row. I don't want to hear your excuses for why you miss it this night. Right. So I think it's like it's up to both parties to kind of figure out what the actual pain is coming from and to work on changing that pattern of behaviors and not like you are a bad toxic person in general.
But yeah, these things that have been happening have made me feel really bad and this was the breaking point. This is really when I was like at my limit.
Right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:43.99)
Is that though the responsibility of the person on offense to explain that? Cuz if all he hears is, I'm mad at you cuz you didn't come home and he's like, I couldn't come home, then he's not gonna validate that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:00.327)
I mean, maybe on the defensive side, the person's like, take full accountability for that behavior, right? Which is probably, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I didn't realize the impact that it was going to have. Here are my reasons. I still care about you. You know, all the interpretations of me not caring about you, maybe it was a misconception. I care about you.
but it sounds like you've been upset about something like more than this, or let's really talk about what's been hurting you, right? Like that's something that maybe in this current conflict you can do is like, it sounds like, you know, there's been a lot of feelings building up or there's a lot of pain or feeling undervalued or something. And let me like try to understand that and.
make you like make you see how much I value you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:05.418)
What are you feeling? What's going on?
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:09.678)
I can't talk about that. Well, my actual reaction is I don't want to do that because I think she was unreasonable and I can't say that on the podcast.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:19.832)
Okay, yeah. Yeah, we're cut that part out, but yeah, I I now understand how hard that would be if you're hurt in that moment.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:32.288)
Yeah, I mean, I think let's go concrete for a minute to just give our listeners a break and talk about like some examples of unhealthy defensiveness.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:40.472)
Right, okay. yeah, delving in. So, I mean, I think thinking about this topic of defensiveness and we're trying to figure out what defensiveness is.
Sorry, my mouth just got really dry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:02.08)
it made me think about the old psychodynamic version of a conceptualization of defensiveness and defenses, which has gotten really out of style with common psychology, but I think it's really cool. So defenses, are different mechanisms. Like now we call them coping.
coping styles or emotion regulation strategies, right? It's like, what happens when you have a vulnerability or something really difficult and what do do about that? How do you respond to that? And there's two different broad categories, primitive defenses and mature defenses. And it kind of looks like what you imagine, like primitive defenses are really immature and mature is like really mature. And primitive defenses are like,
If you really look like emotion dysregulation, if you feel like you cannot handle those feelings or the reality of those feelings, and you're really just trying to block that out as much as possible, you're trying to deny that reality. And that really looks like denial, projection, acting out, regressing, getting super aggressive, right? It's like, would you imagine a kid is like, now? Like, just, they do not want that to exist.
Right. But then mature defenses are like that could still be painful, whatever that thing is. But you channel a sublimation channel in different ways or use humor or rationalize in healthy ways. I really understand it. So I think when we're talking about like, what does it look like to be defensive in a healthy way? I think it's a version that like takes in the reality.
And both realities, yours and that of the person's, takes in the reality of both of the way you feel and then goes from there, right? And is able to hold those, all those things without having to be like, no, no, no, I must block that out because I cannot tolerate that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:14.146)
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm leaving still pretty much as confused as coming in, but one thing that I'm going to try to attend to is to make sure that I am holding along with my...
You know, along with feel like if I feel like I'm being accused of something not good, you know, I can hold that irritation and need for like clarifying that, but also recognizing like this person's feelings are hurt and that has to be platformed as well. And so no matter like if I think it's like, you know, unreasonable or whatever the case is, like somebody I care about feelings are hurt and that has to be addressed in some way.
And if I'm genuinely giving care to that and like priority to that then maybe defending the parts that I don't agree with can coexist a bit more nicely. Because I think what happens with with bad defensiveness is that the person is just unwilling to accept the feelings that are being created in them.
And so, and they are unwilling to lose any degree of power by submitting to the other person and their request. And so then they will like deny or lash out, refuse to take any kind of accountability, turn it around on the other person.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:28.836)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:32.218)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:45.836)
Yeah, try to, I mean, I think the Darvo thing that we talked about in our narcissistic abuse episode, right, is like, deny, don't apologize. I don't have these letters memorized, but like, deny, don't apologize, reverse, so turn it back on them. And I don't remember if you're, but basically the idea is like, wait for that person to do something that you can then pick at and make the problem.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:08.036)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:17.316)
this out because I'll jump in. Yeah, Darvo, deny, attack, reverse, victim, offender. So it's basically be like, no, I didn't do anything wrong. In fact, your reality and the way you remember it is wrong. You're the bad one. And now you hurt me and you're the perpetrator of my pain. just like completely like if someone goes, hey,
I'm really hurt by the thing you said is like, well, now you are me and you're the worst thing, right? It's just like completely will negate what that person comes in, the first person who comes in with their complaints.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:55.406)
Okay, but here's the problem. If the offender comes in with an un... With a character attack, then that's gonna happen naturally. Like, I'm not an inconsiderate person and maybe not the attack part, but maybe the reversing of like, like that thing I did to you, okay, but this is like real bad. Like I'm not gonna let you insult me. This is...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:04.45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:17.433)
Yeah.
I think that makes sense. mean, I think that emotional maturity, which we'll talk about in a future episode, is about holding all of the complications and the layers at the same time. think we've gotten into the state where we talk about conflict and emotional conflict and defensiveness and criticism and accountability, all that stuff, with this underlying assumption that one person
should have the space to have the feelings. Like there should be one winner and that person's feelings is the most important thing and everything needs to like collapse and recognize that. But in reality, like I don't agree with that. Like I think that if I'm legitimately hurt and I say it to you in a mean way, then you can be sorry for the way you hurt me.
and feel bad and ashamed or guilty and be upset and angry by the way I said it. And all of the, and we should both have space to feel all those things, right? I think it would be equally crappy if like I said things in a bad way and then it became all about how it made you feel. And then.
everything else has to fade in comparison to that. That would be defensiveness in an annoying way, right? Because then I'd just be like, well, I can't say anything because it'll be all about her, right? Which there are people who that's just frustrating to me because I'm just like, I can't even be a human and say how I actually feel about anything because it's just going to be all about that other person. So I just fade in the background and I'm just, I'm just a spectator, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:15.148)
Yeah, I mean, I think the power thing is really important here because I think you're right that a lot of people come in and there's like, there's going to be one winner and it's going to be me. Maybe the better way to go about it is let's make sure there are two winners. You know, like, how do I attend to what you're bringing up? And also, like, how do I make sure that I'm not just sort of, I don't know, smacked with no, like, built, like, generated understanding basically about these people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:21.912)
No.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:26.446)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:43.79)
I don't know, maybe that's not always possible, but...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:49.698)
Yeah, and it may not always be possible at the same time. I mean, I think it would be a hero's journey to have to take in a criticism and be like, I'm so sorry. Let me treat you in the way that you want. Let me attend to your feelings, validate, validate. Also, I'm really angry by the accusations and the shame I'm feeling right now.
But here I am, like being in touch with your feelings. Like you might have to split it up. You might have to spend one session or one conversation validating and then spend another session being like, and by the way, that was really hurtful the way you said it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:34.82)
Possibly.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:36.406)
No, I mean, I don't disagree. My mind immediately went to, but what if you don't agree with the premises of the criticism? How are you supposed to do those in two separate sessions? I don't know. It's so freaking complicated.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:52.623)
Well, because then you're like, OK, maybe get to what it's quote really about. Like if you're if you're sensing that it's not about you or that if there's something that's layered on beyond you, like that person, like like what I was going through, right? Like I was going through some like a whole host of life changes. So my tone and the way I said things and the way I was reacting to you was about way more than you. I just couldn't say it.
bad in the moment, right? I could later. So then that's something different. Then you could be like, okay, these accusations, like, I don't agree with the accusations because it's not all about me, but let's address like what's going on with you. And then later on be like, and also the way you said it really hurt my feelings.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:41.038)
How do you say that in a non-patronizing way?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:45.954)
The way it whipp- whipper.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:46.99)
Like if you, you, like just going back to that instance, like if you like snap at me or whatever and say, and consider it, et cetera, how do I then say, hey, what's this really about without it seeming?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:58.251)
Hmm.
First of all, don't do it by text. That's just right for everyone to just project all their stuff. like the argument that we were talking about between us was on text, right? So like we're in our own heads when we text, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:15.948)
and the resolution was over the phone and the resolution was good, I thought. it's just like...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:20.376)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because when you're dealing with text, like anyone's emotional, emotions narrow your attention anyway onto the thing that confirms your emotion. So your eyes are just going to go laser beam for the words that were like, you know, that confirm the way you're feeling and ignore the bunch of text that is not. So do it in person where you get to get like actual tone of voice and you could actually like talk through and
to misconceptions in the moment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:59.259)
How would you do that? Well, I mean, like, so sorry. So sorry you're feeling this way. I didn't mean to hurt you. And then I think if it's like, I think this is like validation, like expert level validation, if there's any kind of like emotion words and what that person is saying.
like hone it on and validate that and then maybe have a Then maybe ask it in person conversation. It's like it sounds like you're going through a really hard time like You know judging by how heated this conversation is I think we need to talk about this in person because I think that there's a lot going on here
And then I think that, let's see, how would I do it as a therapist versus a friend?
I think that you would just let that person talk about what they're going through and like spend a few minutes just being like, wow, I was really taken aback by what you said. I'm so sorry if I hurt your feelings, but like, are you okay? What's going on? Has this been, have you been feeling this for a while? Has there been anything else that's been going on that I don't know about? Have I been doing something like, like asking like,
being curious about their experience and maybe, you know, you could get a little bit more of like, yeah, it's been really hard for me. I felt this and this and this. And then our interaction was just like icing on the cake.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:45.115)
I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I feel like when people are hurt, they're hurt. And like, I think that we all just gotta get better at explaining what we're really feeling without treating the other person like the enemy. And that's really hard when people are upset.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:06.166)
Yeah, I just, there's just this huge dilemma of like, when someone is upset and then the way they express it, legitimately, like justifiably makes you upset, then you have to hold oath and that's just a lot to do. Especially if you're justifiably upset actually trumps theirs.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:19.257)
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:33.186)
Yeah, and you could probably say that in that moment, I guess.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:35.95)
Yeah, like my ex, for instance, would be upset about me leaving the house, right? And then, like, would call me a prostitute or something. I'm just like, you know, I'm not in a place where I can validate him anymore. I mean, that actually happened. I a joke, you know, I made a joke and then he told me I was a prostitute. you know, at what in that case, it's kind of like, OK, well, you know, now I'm upset.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:45.817)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:50.922)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:05.218)
Yeah, right. And then you darboed shit out of him. No, I think that you'd be like, I hear you. I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings. And that's not OK to say to me. Like, I'm trying to think about how I do it with my two year old where he's like tired or just is hungry or whatever. And then he expresses that by asking for his bottle of milk and then throwing it on the floor, spilling it everywhere.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:05.76)
I'm gonna just shut out of it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:35.33)
and then getting mad because he wants a bottle of milk.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:40.524)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:40.859)
and then we'll do that a couple times and eventually I'm like, I get that you're upset. I'm here for you. I want to help you. And you can't throw the bottle on the floor like that because that makes mama want to go away. And sometimes I walk away, right? Sometimes he doesn't get the bottle of milk and then he's just shot himself in the foot. So he has to learn to be like, you know, a sentient emotional human being. But yeah, you could be both.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:54.851)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:10.628)
Like this is about setting boundaries, right? Be like, I understand I hurt you. I'm really sorry about that. And I really didn't like calling me a prostitute is not okay. That's really hurtful. And that's not a way to get me to X, Y, Z or to listen to you. In fact, I need to like peace out for a little while because I'm so mad. Let's talk about it later. That would be like a superhero way to do it. Not saying that I'm capable of that, but that's what I would tell my clients to do.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:31.246)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:38.592)
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm trying to think of like, if you are in position where you're hurt and you want that acknowledged, can you have the expectation that the other person will just simply acknowledge it without defending themselves?
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:59.672)
know, maybe there's a way of expressing that hurt that's so effective that the other person won't feel any sort of defensiveness or feeling any for clarification.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:13.442)
I think it's the way we talk about interpersonal skills. I think it's about trying different ways of communicating it and seeing what's effective. And if you try in arbitrarily let's choose three different ways and you're trying your best to use your skills that we talk about, like you use dear man, you're validating, you express your vulnerable emotion in healthy ways and you try to do all the things.
and that person still is defensive in the annoying way, like collapses into shame, attacks you, completely denies, whatever, just like basically completely blocks your feelings, then it's a losing game, right? Then it's the defender's position that they're not doing their part.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:04:08.014)
Well, what about some tips for trying to not elicit defensiveness? mean, first thing I would say is don't make assumptions about their intentions. Don't tell them who they are or why they did the thing, because that's immediately inviting them to correct you. Be, I mean, really, dear man, but stick to your own feelings and your own vulnerability.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:15.194)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:24.602)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:33.292)
Use I statements, say, feel like undervalued or dismissed or hurt by something that you did, focusing on the behavior, offering ways to change that behavior or what you want instead. If you are really good explaining your emotional state, like, I know that I am going through a hard time.
I am probably more reactive to things or probably more hurt by things than normal. I understand all these different ways that you are good, right? Like balancing, but then also.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:15.8)
also keep it specific. I mean, that's another thing Dear Man would say too, is like, keep it very specific. Because if you include a lot of other things, your message can get very confused and they don't actually know what to validate.
which is one thing that I faced with my conflict. It's like, I don't actually know what the ask is here or what I'm supposed to validate because I feel like there's a lot going on. There's a lot said. my attention is being drawn in all these different places. so I think keeping it isolated to a single behavior might be helpful. Now, I think if you notice a pattern, can say, I've noticed this has happened multiple times.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:05:34.275)
Mmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:05:41.422)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:57.824)
But it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough to just say like, here are all these various ways that you don't value me. Fix it. Because then that's also kind of inviting them to say, well, here's all these various ways I do value you. are we talking about whether or not I value you? Or is there a specific behavior you want me to change? And yeah, I don't know if that distinction makes sense to you, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:06:14.99)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:06:21.978)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:06:26.39)
If you get into a talk about like, you value me or don't you value me? Do you care or don't you care? Then the person's gonna say, I do care. Here's all the evidence for, did you remember to see this evidence or are you only seeing your own evidence? But if you, every time, you you can say like, I noticed this, I noticed you didn't do the dishes. I noticed we haven't gone on a date. I noticed you didn't call me on my birthday. Like if you can say that.
when it comes up, be like, one way that I really feel valued is that when people call me on my birthday, then it's like, okay, I know what to do. But if you hand them a pile of misdeeds, then that can feel very overwhelming for the other person, and they're gonna look for something to stand with. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:07:06.34)
counter, yeah, counter arguments, yeah. I think you're right. It could be one, or it could be one repeated pattern of the same thing, maybe. Like, you haven't called me on my birthday for the past three years or whatever. But if you later on, you haven't called me for a birthday, and then you didn't do this, and you didn't do that, that might be overwhelming. So yeah, you're right. Focusing on a distinct thing that they can change and do differently next time. And validate their perspective, right?
I understand you, you know, you got a lot on your plate or whatever. Now, what are the tips for the person who is the defender?
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:07:49.614)
Notice what's happening in your body. If shame is coming up, there's a very good chance it's gonna switch into anger and you're gonna wanna blame. And so just kind of attend to that. And if you notice that that's happening, it might be good to just take some time with your response so that you can let the shame die down a little bit and then like come out from it. So if it happens in person, just saying like, I think I'm gonna be better at this conversation in 10 minutes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:07:51.321)
Yeah
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:08:17.08)
try to keep in mind that what this person is really saying is...
Hurt or something feels bad, and I'm actually making a bid to strengthen us Because they're coming to you with a request right and that request is presumably meant to like strengthen the relationship maybe that's not always the case, Try to keep in mind that you you want both of you to walk out with greater understanding and closeness And notice any urge to just like win
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:08:53.156)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:08:59.69)
stay calm you know like stop stay reasonable you were telling me earlier that I might do this I might over do this maybe not in the conversations but in other areas anyway I'm now I'm just confusing the audience again what else
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:13.198)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:17.658)
How about this? You can acknowledge the kernel of truth. That is something that we talk about in DBT a lot is take accountability for what's true. Like even if it's a small part, you know, be like, all right, I said that when I didn't show up that night or when I didn't come to, didn't call you on your birthday, that was really inconsiderate me. I'm sorry."
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:51.119)
I think apologizing for and honestly apologizing is not a sign of weakness. think that power dynamic is like people might not want to apologize because they then they might feel like they lose the whole battle. But you could still be like, "I'm sorry for this thing that I did. You're right. I will do better next time. And also the way you're coming, you're like bringing this up with me, it's like really hurtful and
I don't feel like I'm this terrible person that you're accusing me of. So I need to take a few minutes and let's talk about that," you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:32.354)
it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:10:33.324)
Yeah, I guess. Why don't you guys tell us about you? Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:37.998)
I know, kind of do want to know. I do kind of want to hear from you all about like what are your thoughts? Because it's so convoluted.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:10:47.267)
Yeah, so please send us a message. You click on the message on top of the show notes that says, send a text. Just send us messages of what you think defensiveness looks like, what is healthy defending yourself versus bad defensiveness, and how people can work on this. Because, yeah, this is what we're throwing out there.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:11:09.806)
I also just want you guys to know that Kibbe's original idea was to come on here and trigger each other so that we would get defensive and then have to work that out in real time. I mean, it would be a episode. You what?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:10.19)
Such a hot topic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:17.146)
I brought up a little bit about our stuff. I brought up a little bit about our stuff.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:11:24.11)
She's like, I tried to get ya.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:28.57)
Yeah, I was like, I'm just going to insult you and let's see what happens when you feel defensive.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:11:31.587)
Yeah.
Kibby's very dedicated to this podcast. You all are very lucky.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:40.43)
Or I'm just, you know, masochistic, sadomasochistic, I don't know. Just like drama, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:11:43.726)
Yeah, well, I like drama too. I just... not when it's about me. So, guys, don't make us defensive and give us bad reviews or no reviews at all. Make us feel perfect and valuable and cared for by giving us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And we love your comments too. We'll see you next week.
