Ep. 129 - Navigating the Complex Family Dynamics of a New Marriage
Can a new marriage really shake the foundation of a once harmonious family? Maybe if the newcomer is, ahem, emotionally challenging. In today's episode, we respond to a listener who asked for tips on dealing with the toxic behavior of a new family member. "Emma," a Little Helper, sent us a message describing her frustration with her uncle's new marriage following the passing of their beloved aunt. Her extended family is large and close, but this new bride "Mary" interrupts the dynamic with narcissistic, controlling, critical, and jealous behavior. We explore the delicate balance of blending families after the loss of a central family figure, shedding light on how personalities and past dynamics play crucial roles in this transition.
As much as we wonder if Mary exhibits Cluster B disordered behavior, we also examine the potential struggles she faces as she steps into the challenging role of matriarch later in life. The family's expectations weigh heavily on her, and we explore how her critical and controlling traits have contributed to the tension. We also question the uncle's role, too, as his perceived lack of assertiveness adds fuel to the fire. Through personal reflections and poignant examples, we highlight the intricate dance of balancing new relationships while respecting longstanding family ties.
Finally, we touch on broader themes, including the impact of cluster B traits on family dynamics and the emotional complexity of marrying into a close-knit family. We explore how empathy, understanding, and effective communication can help navigate these turbulent waters. From the gatekeeping behaviors that hinder personal connections to strategies for managing challenging interactions, how do we maintain family harmony amid change and exploring the evolving nature of family dynamics?
-
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:01.024)
up little helpers today we're doing something new which is that a fan submitted a scenario of what's going on in her life and we're going to discuss it basically the scenario is what happens when somebody maybe a little toxic enters into your family and reshuffles the dynamic so Kibbe can you tell us what exactly is going on
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:26.48)
Yeah, I will. Let's call her Emma. So our fan Emma wrote in with this story about like what happens when someone marries into a family? And we talk a lot on this podcast about people with narcissism or BPD or other kinds of interpersonal difficulties already in a family. you know.
What does that look like? What does that family dynamic look like? But then what happens if someone comes, enters in to an existing family dynamic and then causes a destruction? it's like a lot of these themes of splitting families and estrangement and what do you do when someone's being a gatekeeper to the rest of the family? So Emma talked about how her family, her extended family has this beautiful connection where they all...
are in touch with each other. They all visit each other like cousins and uncles and grandparents and their kids and many generations. They go on family trips together. They're super close. It honestly sounds like a dream family, when she described it. So what's really painful is that their uncle was the matriarch of the family, like this kind of older figure. What? Sorry. So the uncle was
the patriarch of the family and the central figure whose wife and they've been together since they were in high school. And she recently passed away from cancer. And that was really, really hard for the family because since they were the rock, they were the center, all the family came to them. And it reminds me of my family too, where it's there's, what is that called?
Keystone this keystone in an arch that holds together a family. What happens when they pass? What happens when you lose like that key member of the family that that's like the gravitational pull right for the rest of the family and then not only that not only what happens when you lose that keystone, but then in recent years the uncle remarried We'll call her Mary because that was just easier and so Mary
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:44.625)
just married into the family. And she has, I mean, can't diagnose her, but she has a lot of difficult traits. She is very critical of the rest of the family. She makes little digs and comments, especially about people's like job or education, their body and their weight. Like she's apparently very proud of her body. Even though she's a little bit older, she's, you know, very proud of showing off her body.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:17.434)
I think around 60, I think she mentioned 60. Yeah, so 60s or 70s. So she makes comments about the family's appearance and their bodies and just like one of those kind of like, haha, I'm just joking, but kind of like really mean comments. And I think something that's very painful for the family is that she seems very threatened or she seems to react with.
you know, she seems to be angry or react with avoidance whenever the previous aunt, the one who passed away is mentioned. So the way that looks is they'll be talking about her like a story or bring her up and then she will leave and she'll, you know, huff and make her, make her displeasure known and walk away. So everyone has to be careful about what to say around her. And
She has taken all of the aunt's stuff and replaced it with her own craft room. And it just has very apparently very subtle but controlling behavior. So for example, another thing that she does is the uncle is very close with different cousins and members of the family. A lot of people come visit him and hang out with them. And she has...
actually made that stop. She's like, it's not appropriate that you have these family members coming over all the time, you know, and basically block people from hanging out with him. She's also seems to change the way he sees himself. Like apparently in recent years, as he's with her, he says that he's like too accommodating and a little bit too much of a pushover. It's just me reading, but
between the lines, seems like she's criticizing his closeness with the family, right? Like the way he gives to them, the way he responds to their needs, she is a little bit critical of that. So he's kind of pulled away or, you know, mentioned these things that the family is like, what, what are you talking about?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:31.375)
Yeah, the new wife, Mary, is calling the uncle a pushover and saying, you're too much of a pushover, right? This is not appropriate. And he's like, I guess I am. And so he's reflecting on himself in ways that the family doesn't see and understand and doesn't see him as. they said it's just, hold on, pause. We're going to cut this. I'm just looking at notes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:04.72)
was talking about me going to Africa. Where is this?
Oh, I was looking at the wrong text. Hold on.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:20.482)
Okay.
And then what she says is, what Emma said is, guess the most painful part is the network distribution of pain throughout my family. They grew up close and then this one figure has made the whole dynamic tense. They completely feel like the whole dynamic has changed. They can't feel relaxed around their uncle's home. She changed away, like physically the way it looks and what they can talk about and how they relate to each other.
She has a family of her own where the relationships are very strained too. So I think there's a lot there. I think there's a lot of grief.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:04.492)
Yeah, my mind is buzzing with thoughts. Yeah. Well, I mean, think obviously this is going to turn into a conversation about how can they navigate around this meteor that's hit the family and how can they maybe set boundaries or how can they...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:07.704)
Yeah, go. What are your thoughts?
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:28.59)
figure out how to talk to, you know, the uncle and a lot of the behavior that Mary is showing is concerning and not great. I also don't, I don't think we can have a full conversation about this without acknowledging Mary's possible perspective because I actually kept noticing myself being like, oh, that sucks for Mary. Mary's in a really difficult position here too. And I think
I mean, my first reaction is if I were Emma, I would hate this situation. So like, I fully understand why she's upset and why she reached out because I keep imagining my mom dying and then my dad remarrying and this scenario and like how crushing that would be. She's got such a... Someone? Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:16.152)
And someone you don't get along with. I think it's one thing just to have someone replace, but someone who's just like, wants to change the fabric of the whole Trumbull family. You know, that would be.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:21.61)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, in my family, we are not close with extended family. We don't have actually much extended family. So it's, but you know, we have like a relatively large family and it's kind of tribal and it's got its traditions and there's a lot of like pride there. So I hear a lot of grief in this story because...
I mean, yeah, a keystone of the family has disappeared and so things are rearranging themselves and there's a lot to grieve there. It's not just grieving a person, but it is grieving that, you know, the closeness of this family and the, how do I put this, like cohesion of the family. But I do just want to notice what Mary has walked into because there are some things here that I think...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:05.008)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:16.379)
would be just really difficult to be her and I can kind of understand her decision making around some things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:21.104)
In what way? Like what sparks that sympathy?
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:23.438)
The first thing that strikes me is the house being changed. So, okay, so my mom, well, yeah, no, does. Yeah, because Jason and I are at war over the decorating, but like my mom has, you've seen our house, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:30.392)
Hits on a personal thing for you, huh? Home decor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:41.466)
I haven't been there personally, I've seen, I know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:45.302)
Okay, my mom has a very particular decorating style. It's extremely lush. There's plants, paintings, like instruments, just everything around, you know? It's like, it's really, really distinctive. And if she died and my dad remarried and a woman moved in, it would be gutting to watch all of that go away. At the same time, it would also be pretty unusual if it didn't.
because a new woman is coming in and surrounded by stuff that's not her taste and isn't hers and is a reminder of a ghost, right? So it doesn't strike me as particularly strange that this woman would come in and want to redecorate.
And I think the only thing that makes us pause around that is the fact that she's later in life. Like, I'm gonna be a second wife. Jason already redecorated me, whatever. But if Heidi's stuff was everywhere, you know, I'd want a few tokens to keep it alive for Kai and Jason, but like, ultimately, I'm not gonna keep...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:42.288)
interesting.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:49.838)
You know, I'm not gonna keep it decorated in the style of somebody who isn't there anymore if for no other reason than because I have the right to be in a home that I enjoy right like I want to decorate myself decorating is important so To me this sounds more like grief at change the other thing is Clearly like there's some like Mary's own behavior is
influencing certain things like the fact that she's not close with her own family. That's got something to do with Mary, right? But Mary's an interesting predicament, which is that she is coming in to replace the matriarch of this big family system, and she's coming in alone. Like, I don't know where her family is, but it's like she's just stepped into this role at the head of this family.
And it's unclear how much autonomy she is supposed to have within it that isn't just going to disrupt everybody else, right? So she's changed the decorating of the house and that's like hurt a lot of people. Understandably, of course, right? But she's also maybe noticing like this thing about not allowing relatives to visit is preposterous. At the same time, I wonder what she's thinking. Is it that I'm trying to have this union with a person and all of the rules have already been set
You know, so like, okay, it's set that he has lunch with his son all of these days. What happens to lunch with me? It's set that, you know, there's all these family gatherings and reunions. Like that's a lot of, I'm married now. That's a lot of time that I'm spent with people who don't like me, first of all, and resent my existence. That's maybe because of my own behavior. But it's actually a quite difficult position. I don't know what it's like to be in your sixties or seventies and start over in a new life.
Because I'm coming in to, in my 30s, and we have to keep things sort of safe and recognizable for Kai, but he's moving, and then ultimately, Jason and I get to start our own lives together, and we get to be the directors of it. But she's coming into a finished project, and has to find her role. And I just can imagine that that would be a difficult thing to navigate.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:10.362)
Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. I'm thinking about your situation and then my stepmom's situation where you're coming in and there's a big shadow. Like there's a big shoe so you have to fill and you're like, do I even need to fill this or can I just buy my own shoes? Right? It's like, that's already established there, like Jason's relationship with his son or my relationship with my dad when I was young takes that
space takes that priority. And then when you're starting a new relationship, you want to create a new thing together. You want to create a new home, which is easier when you're young and you're just like very malleable. But it's harder when there's an already established home that you're literally trying to come in and co-create. So it's like either you have to slip in and be unnoticed or there has to be like a wild change. Otherwise, you're just you're just going to be like compared and like
trying to replace someone else, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:12.012)
I genuinely don't know what that is like in your 70s. If you have a second marriage late in life, do you understand that you're not gonna flip the table over and start from new? Because there is some responsibility here to maintain the cohesiveness of the family, but how much responsibility? And I can also understand how she's not super excited to do that. There's not a lot of friendliness here.
And that's, I'm not saying that's on. Emma's family, you know, like it might be very rightly deserved. But it's tough. It's tough when you know people don't like you very much. It's when your own personality traits make it difficult to be liked, you know, or to like others. And so I think it's, another thing that really stood out to me was when...
she called, Mary called the uncle a pushover and the family really objected to that because actually what I'm sensing is that some of this anger that's going on might be more appropriately labeled disappointment in the uncle for not maintaining the traditions, the house, the cohesiveness himself because it's actually much more his responsibility than hers.
but she's getting the full blame for it. And Mary, like, he is, he is, he's not standing up to her. I mean, maybe he is and we don't know about it, but in this story, he's actually not standing up for her. She's running rough shot all over this whole thing and then kind of rightly points out like you're a bit of a pushover. So it's interesting that it came from her and that this is, that it's connected to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:57.029)
Right, or it's like their closeness. And we don't exactly know what she's tapping into, right? It's just like, there might be this closeness in the whole family that exists. And then she's asking or wants it to change. Or maybe he wants it to change and he's not actually communicating it with the family, who knows? then she goes, well, you you're too much of a pushover.
you're kind of not setting these boundaries that we want or I want. So maybe this is not a trait that he has globally, but like that might be a point of contention in the relationship. I mean, my God.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:36.174)
Yeah, I mean, he's in a tough position too. He's being pulled, both his arms are being pulled in different directions.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:41.241)
It just reminds me, it's interesting. We've talked recently that there's some people in our lives, and even my clients who have experienced a loss in the family, and it's always surprising to people, including me, when I lost my dad. You think you're gonna grieve the person. Like you're like, I'm so sad that that person is here. I miss them, and that's certainly there. But sometimes the secret pain that's a constant,
is then what do you do with the whole fabric and network around them? I mean, this is the whole thing that we talk about over and over again, is that emotions are so housed in the community and the social relationships around you. Because you don't just leave that person, you lose that network of relationships, right? Like that feeling that the family could go over to the uncle and aunt's house and...
sit on this chair and have this coffee and have this lunch and have these conversations, right? That's all the structure that she was a key part of and kept it together. And then when you see that person go away, you get the missing that person, but you also, I see a lot of family members trying to do what they can to preserve and getting really upset about.
Well, we used to go over here for Christmas and we all used to go together and now we're split up and this brother has to go there and that, you know, like, and people get really upset that the whole family traditions, you know, have to change. And so you're grieving, you're grieving a family dynamic, right? It'll never be the same without that person. And that's so hard for everyone.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:28.398)
I think that's, I mean, I agree a thousand percent. I see this more as an episode about grief than about dealing with a toxic family member because, and we'll talk about the toxicity part and navigating that, but I think what I'm noticing in this prompt is all of the ways that they resent her for coming in and changing things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:37.936)
interesting.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:51.946)
And maybe Emma would object and add stuff. But when I think, so my dad has cancer. And when I think about him dying, it is interesting. mean, there's the, yeah, exactly as you're saying, there's the grief over him. But then I think about...
Holy smokes, like my family, I just don't know how it could continue in any way that resembles how it's been. Like my dad is the cook. mean, it's like simple, the simple thing about him creates so much meaning, right? He creates, because he's the, makes these beautiful meals. He creates the place where people come.
people feast and we have events, right? It's like, my dad, if my mom would be able to maintain a house that big by herself, is she gonna choose to live alone? Is she gonna choose to downsize? And then once she downsizes, are people gonna like come to her or is everything gonna shift over to one of my sibling's houses? You know, once we stop having this like place to, I don't know why my words are not coming to me right now, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:07.824)
Gathering.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:09.102)
short, whatever. We don't have a place to gather that is my parents' house. they're the, you know, they're the top. We all go to them. Are my siblings and I even gonna hang out as much? Like, are these things gonna happen as much? Right? So a lot of things are gonna become sort of diffuse. And then, I mean, there's no way in hell either my parents would remarry. Although my grandfather did when he was 90. He got engaged when he was like 93 or something. But if they did, like, that person is going to cut me. She is a
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:13.157)
Yes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:39.008)
fully formed person or he is a fully formed person who has expectations and wants and desires and their want and desire isn't I'm going to keep this family whole and to keep it exactly how it was it's probably something similar to I have my own life path that I'm protecting and I and I'm I'm gonna live as happily as I can and hopefully that person has the respect and the compassion to realize what their presence does to the family but really this is also what a loss has done to the family and that's where so much of this change
has happened and I really feel for that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:11.752)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I saw when I was reading over Emma's messages, it really was striking that a painful part is that the presence of this woman is not allowing them to grieve in their way. They can't talk about her. They can't preserve the house the way it was. They can't do the same kind of routines and gatherings. So it's a blocking of this group grieving process.
I do see that there's a lot of anxiety around trying to... I mean, there's the grieving of feeling their emotions and remembering them and just like talking about them. But there is also the anxiety of like, gosh, my dad was the cook and we all used to go over and have meals. Now who's gonna cook, right? That simple question sometimes creates like this new anxiety that...
I'm seeing my patients, but me too. Like when my grandparents passed away, we would go every year to Hong Kong to go quote, quote, visit them. But we're visiting each other. Like that was the time that I saw my cousins and then their kids. they were almost kind of the excuse so that the whole family gets together. But now that they're not there, there's this anxiety around like, okay, who's gonna be that point person? Like, do you want?
that responsibility, like who's gonna be that person that draws people in or has the same role as the person you lost? And if it someone new coming in, that's anxiety that is just like impossible. And I think that you're right, this is a grief process that might be an extra special pain to it. But if the person coming in doesn't have the emotional skills,
or the social skills to navigate that well and to allow a really tough job of creating a family of your own, creating a home and a marriage of your own, but then also allowing for everyone's grief about the person you're stepping into. Like that's, yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:26.21)
I totally agree not being able to talk about the grandmother is completely inappropriate. I just I guess I find that there's a conspicuous lack of anger towards the uncle
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:36.066)
Interesting. What kind of anger do you think the uncle should get?
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:38.626)
This isn't his family to protect. It's his family. And he remarried quickly before people had grieved. He let a woman come in and redecorate the house. He's allowing her to huff and leave when the aunt is mentioned. Like, I don't...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:49.136)
interesting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:56.048)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:56.79)
And I just feel like this happens a lot with divorce or parents where people place the blame on the person who's easiest to push away or lose. The outsider, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:08.144)
The outsider, yeah. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. I don't really think about that. About how the, it's, I mean, that position is such a difficult position. It reminds me of when my husband was with someone before me, obviously, but it was with someone that didn't get along with his family that well. Like there was a lot of conflict.
There's a conflict in that relationship too, but there was real conflict. And the thing is that like with people with cluster B traits, there is a splitting effect, right? I think that's something that people talk about, but what that looks like is there's a, that one person can really split groups of people, literally, meaning some people are good and some people are bad.
And then they create like this conflict that literally splits them apart. And it happens with people who have cluster B traits. And traditionally, like if you have a treatment team, like a psychiatrist, psychologist, a doctor, sometimes those providers will be at war with each other because they'll be like, well,
I heard that you prescribed her this and she was unhappy with it. I, you know, suddenly like a treatment team that used to be cohesive is now at war with each other. And that's why in dialectical behavior therapy, there's such an emphasis on all the providers being on the same page and having like a consultation. Like there's a lot of structure around preventing that. So it's just interesting to see how that could happen where, sorry, I got off track going back to my husband and his ex.
and all the pain with that. My camera just suddenly...
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:59.298)
I know I'm worried too. I don't know if that's happening to you, but... Okay, good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:02.392)
No, you look good, actually.
So when my husband was with the ex and it was like all the family didn't like her and then they had the conflict, it was tough for him because he goes, okay, well, what am I supposed to do? If I'm allied with her, with her, my girlfriend, then I'm isolating from the family. I'm separating from the people I love. But if I'm in line with them, I might be like losing someone that I love.
risking the relationship, right? So they're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. And if a family is family and there is more security in those relationships, then he has to protect the new person, right? He has to protect the girlfriend because yeah, she's like the outsider trying to come in and she's being, quote, bullied. So he's got to protect her against the family. And that caused a lot of issues. So I know that the uncle here, Emma's uncle, is in a really difficult position.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:03.854)
He is, yeah. But part of protecting Mary might be saying, like, hey, here's how you can get along better.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:11.055)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:11.726)
You know, here's what's going on. look, we we can we can do the rest of the episode as if she has cluster B traits. We don't actually know that. mean, like being critical, making critical comments could be a side effect of like social anxiety or autism or like all sorts of things. Right. Or you just say, say stuff, thinking maybe it'd be funny or it's not. But, know, there is another besides just the grief element, there is another part about like maybe there are cluster B traits coming in and then how do you navigate around those? And so we can
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:19.856)
All
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:28.752)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:41.682)
act as if she has that. But yeah, I just think there's so much grief here and it's really hard on every single person involved. mean, the uncle, this might be part of his grieving process is meeting somebody new and not having to think that his entire life is over. And so, you know, it's hard for him as well, but maybe keeping in perspective all of these various positions could be helpful for trying to bridge this gap.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:10.992)
I think you're right. When I first read the story, I was biased towards Emma and I was like, that bitch, how could she do this with this poor family? It's so beautiful, they all hang out together. I want that something. But then I'm like, yeah, actually, you know, there is a lot of emotions there. There's a lot of pain. Anyone stepping into that role is gonna have a hard time. And I mean, think about how difficult it must be for her. It's intimidating to...
marry into a really close family. mean, goodness, right? And some people, especially if you do have cluster B traits, if you do have narcissism, the sympathetic view of those kind of people is that they deal with anxiety, social anxiety, and try to get connection and love and approval is through the grandiose or the attention seeking behaviors, right? That's why it's such a disorder because
they learn one way of trying to make friends and it doesn't work everywhere. So her coming in and maybe even like devaluing other people or trying to in different ways be possessive over the uncle's time and house and room and like maybe some people just come in and dominate when they don't know how to deal with a uncomfortable situation. So, and it's not good, but that might be.
she's feeling.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:39.918)
She may have a background that tells her too that she has to take care of herself and take charge or she'll be neglected, know, insert here other bad outcome. So we don't know. There seems to be some significant immaturity demonstrated here. I mean, not being able to hear anything about your predecessor in front of the whole family when you're in your 60s or 70s is like probably something you should grow out of.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:08.698)
How do you feel when Jason talks about his late wife?
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:20.556)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:20.836)
You feel no things. You feel nothing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:25.262)
Typically no, other than, I mean kind of like talking about her because I like knowing more about his past and she's definitely a welcome topic. mean...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:32.336)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:40.95)
It might feel strange if there were pictures of her everywhere. I don't know.
I'm trying to think. mean, there have been times when I've wondered if his love for me could be complete, given that he lost his wife. I don't know if that's really what I mean to say there, but there have certainly been times when I've been a little bit concerned that her...
I forget who wrote this line. It was in a book that I read, but it was basically that somebody was dating another person or was in love with another person and that person's spouse died and so it was like, yes, they're available. Now I get to have them or something. And the quote was something like, not realizing that a dead...
It was like not realizing that a ghost is your hardest enemy. It was actually a really well-written quote, but it was basically like, if you've lost someone, if you've broken up with somebody, presumably you've noticed some of their flaws. If somebody dies, you tend to idealize them and cement that idealization forever. And that's...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:47.568)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:09.706)
it was that a ghost is the hardest competitor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:12.272)
Mmm. Ooh. That's a quote.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:15.648)
Yeah. And that's probably true here. However, I think when you're in your 60s or 70s, you kind of have to know that comes with the territory. But I don't know what her own relationship with her first husband was, or if she had a husband or what her relationship history was like. Like maybe she's in a period of time where she feels like this is it for me. This is the one. This is the time I finally am valued and prioritized and yada yada. We don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:44.857)
I do remember part of the story is that she has a difficult relationship with her kids and family. So I assume that she was partnered before or at least, you know, at some point and she was sent away to school at a young age. So there definitely are some attachment issues and that's the only reason why I'm a little more comfortable thinking that it's a cluster B behavior because
If it was just the way she behaves with this family, okay, you can't actually diagnose personality disorders if it's only showing up in one area. It has to be across all domains of your life. So if she has had this kind of issues before, now that I'm thinking about that, how sad is it that if she's had attachment issues, has felt any distance or problems with her family, and then she's like, okay, I'm gonna marry into a family that has none of the problems I had.
Not only will I kind of feel envious and intimidated and other and just like, I'm around the thing that I never had. And then how do I fit into this? Right? It's like you're you're you're facing the success where your life has failed in a way. So now I feel bad for you feel bad for Mary.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:07.694)
I mean, I think she's shooting herself in the foot in a multitude of ways. Because I feel bad for Emma too. Like I think this would suck. But yeah, mean, Mary's in a tough spot. And it sounds like she doesn't necessarily have all the tools to navigate it totally effectively. And it's, I think, you know, when you marry into somebody where there are progeny, you have to figure out as the newcomer how to honor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:11.216)
Mm-hmm
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:24.282)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:35.254)
the deceased and how to keep them alive in some way even when it's uncomfortable for you and that's what she seems to be failing to do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:45.723)
What would be the appropriate way? I I think I would feel, it's one thing if I, as you were saying with your situation, like you're coming in and marrying someone who, well, we don't know if you're marrying yet, wink, wink, you know, you're, you were deeply involved with someone who has a, you know, who has a past like that. But then it's like you enter into a whole family and they're all grieving.
And you're the one. You're the one who's not grieving. You're the one who's like taking your place. I would. I mean, I probably wouldn't leave or storm out or look upset, but I would feel really awkward if this whole family is like, do you remember when Aunt so-and-so used to do that? gosh, this house used to look like this. You know, like I would feel like, all right. It's very clear that you guys miss the person I'm taking the place of. So great.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:43.308)
Yeah, right. And probably wish that I did not exist and that other person did. And it's odd, you know, like, it's, you're coming in at the end of somebody's life and at the end of your own life. And so how much, how much do you kind of keep things as they are and just sort of try to enjoy each other versus how much do you make your own life together? And it's just odd knowing that like your first wife had
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:49.295)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:13.262)
50 years with you and I'm gonna get 10. I don't know what that would feel like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:16.645)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's like watching The Golden Bachelorette or The Golden Bachelor. Oh my God. I was not gonna watch The Golden Bachelorette until you convinced me. And then I'm so glad I did because that is the most heartwarming show where it you know, like it really was just interesting to watch The Golden Bachelorette versus The Bachelor or Bachelorette because there's the the youngins.
There's so much competition and then there's like talk about the future and what they want and whether their wants are aligned. And then the goal to maturate was a lot about processing what they've lost. Like they all bonded because they were like, we're all widowers. like, what is it like to lose the person that you made your family with? And then is it then gonna be like your new relationship is gonna be about keeping each other company?
while you grieve for the rest of your life? I mean, what does that look like, right? Like, are you just kind of, you know, keeping each other company while you remember?
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:27.224)
Yeah. It's sweet, but it flies in the face of our young and concept of love and romance.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:39.674)
How so? Are they creating something new?
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:41.294)
I think our concept of love and romance is like, we are the one! And like, my husband loves me more than anyone.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:46.98)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:53.38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:54.514)
Jason does a very good job for me. You know, I he doesn't make me feel like second choice You know, I I really think that he is like fully excited and in love and you know, and like he loved Heidi too But that's in the past and he's excited to have a future But that's a tough I mean that's a tough
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:17.492)
It's actually similar to the topics we were saying in our other episodes about non-monogamy, right? It's like we're kind of breaking down this kind of outdated idea that we're looking for the one, right? The special one and you're just kind of biding time until the special person, then you live out your days with that person. It's like, no, we are living way longer than we expect.
there could be just different ones for different phases of your life and maybe for a family too. mean, one thing that Emma said was that they are happy that the uncle is happy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:01.552)
Okay, hold on. Okay, sorry. Had a kid call and say, no, no, but you can cut out this. What were you talking about?
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:14.766)
Well, we were talking about how you related it to our E &M episode where we talking about like special one and only and then...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:22.638)
Yeah,
Yeah, there might not be the one. mean, when we say the one, now it's like, who do we make our family with? But now there's blended families, there's multiple families, different stages of your life, and what makes sense for different times of your life? when we talk about dating in our 20s, we're like, we dated the wrong man until we found the right man. It's like, no, we probably dated people who made sense for being in our 20s. Who now had totally different
values and goals and characteristics than the version of us now. and you know, thinking about it, if the uncle was with this, with his late wife since he was a kid, he never got to date. He never got to date his crazy, like, you know, that like weird fling that the ex that you shouldn't have, right? Like maybe he's making his whoopsies now.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:25.196)
Yeah, he has no hair. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:25.424)
You know, someone who's exciting.
I mean, remember when we were 20s and dating all people with all sorts of fun cluster B traits, toxic, whatever, there wasn't even toxic in our day. was just like, you know, the bad boys that everyone wanted. there is like an intensity and excitement and feeling alive with someone who brings drama. There's a little bit of like, someone's coming in and just controlling and telling me what to do and all that, you know, there's the intensity in that.
dynamic. That's fun.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:00.398)
Yeah, yeah. I wonder how some of this stuff is getting communicated to Emma too, like who's communicating, like when Mary said you can't have lunch with your son anymore. Like who told her that? Because it seems strange if Mary did, and it would also seem a grapevine if the son did. So do we actually know how that conversation went down?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:12.57)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:23.12)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:26.797)
No, think that, I think it sounds like, it sounds like there's some of it that Emma has seen for herself, like some of the digs were towards her and her siblings, but it might be passed down also from her parents or, you know, like the extended family involved, but.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:47.95)
I just wonder if that conversation really went down that way. If it was like, can't have lunch with him anymore. This isn't appropriate. Or if it was something like, hey, like you having lunch with him disrupts our yada yada and I mean, look, we know there's demonstrated immature behavior. You just can't huff when your predecessor is brought up in front of your predecessor's family. You just can't do that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:08.996)
Unless it was like, remember when she was here? Not like Mary sitting over there, you know? Right? There might be ways that they're bringing her up that's painful.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:16.27)
We don't know what she's putting up on. And telling, if she didn't tell him that he can't have lunch with his son. That's inappropriate. That's like, that's mega bad. So I do, I'm sorry. No, no, you go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:36.561)
Well, is, this, oh, sorry, go ahead. It's the dilemma that we therapists working with interpersonal problems always come across, where you're getting one view, right? And to really understand who's, quote, toxic. That's why we hate the word toxic in social media and stuff, because you're getting one side of the story. And different perspectives are valid, even though they might not mesh.
You're getting one side of the story, but I think what we are getting from the way Emma described it was like the biggest pain is like the ripple effects across the family and how it really interferes with their grieving process or even maybe lack of grieving process of trying to preserve something that, you know, a family dynamic that isn't there anymore, it can't exist in the same way.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:32.364)
I think my mind was going to a similar place of first of all I may be over correcting and trying too hard to see the to see Mary's point because I am so aware of this in my own therapy sessions where it's like it'd be so easy to just bash this person but I just don't know and then I always think of my ex-fiance in therapy and how he's presented me and how convincing I'm sure that was you know but yeah I mean I think part of this is how do you learn to accept that your family that has been stable for so long is suddenly changing and is never gonna go back to normal
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:01.498)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:02.408)
and new people come in and upend things and that is really hard and it's a really hard adjustment and it would have been probably easier if there had been a period of time where Mary wasn't there and they got used to the new normal and kind of figured out what that was but this what I mean it perhaps did rush
the grieving process a little bit and now they don't know how to grieve. But the reality is is it's changed and they're it's like I
I always go back to like the time when my Christmases started changing, when my siblings were all getting older and like getting partners and going off to their houses or the partners were coming here, it's like to my house. And I was like, wow, my family, my traditions, it's all changing. I don't have any control over it. And it feels like I should have control over it because I'm a member of this family. And my family is the thing that like gives me identity and tells me how to live and has shaped me. when that changes,
It's really disturbing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:09.678)
Yeah, I think we know that if we're like going into tips like what Emma and her family should do, I mean, it's step one, you know, step one's gotta always be grieving. that, I mean, even step before that is accepting the new normal, accepting the reality of what you've lost and what's here, right? So you go, okay, the closeness that we had, all the traditions we had, the vacations, the visits, the furniture, they're not here anymore.
and just like allow that to be extremely painful. And then to be like, okay, well, because if you're like, I noticed this in my clients, if they're trying their best to try to MacGyver something back and duct tape it to look like what it used to be, it's not gonna work. You're just gonna cause pain and struggle with yourself. So stop doing that.
and like just sit and accept and just be like, this is so sad and we just miss our aunt so much. And then say, okay, what was it, what was so special about that? Right? Like maybe we can't have lunches every day, but like, what was so important about that? Was it that they had a dedicated time and space to connect? Is it that they went on vacations together and like the kids could play? Like what was it that was so special?
and then try to capture that in maybe a new way. Easier said than done. I don't know the answers to all of this, but I think it's like, that's the grieving process and traditions of like, what did we love about that? And how can that be possible in the circumstances we have now?
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:56.691)
I totally agree. There's a lot of elements here that we don't know about too. I I wonder if there's concern here for the, I wonder if there's concern here for the uncle of like, he seems to be with this.
this woman who's taking over his brain, is he okay? I don't know if it would be maybe a good idea to just have some conversations with him, take him out to lunch if you're still allowed, and just not be like initially like, I'm concerned, but maybe like, hey, how's it going with Mary? What does she bring to you? What do you love about her? What, you know, so like really understanding, like what is it that this is doing for him?
And then you can say, I've just noticed a couple things and I just wanted to hear what you think about them, what you think might be going on.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:53.476)
Yeah, I think that now we're now we're jumping into the tips for how do you navigate when there's like a gatekeeper to your lunch when someone comes in and puts up a gate. Now we're we've always talked about this, but don't polarize. Don't sit that person down and be like, we hate Mary. We all are against her. This is an intervention. You got to know that she sucks. That's that's going to polarize him, right? He's there. He's going to leave.
he's going to be no other position than to defend her, right? So lean the other way, opposite action. you know, maybe extend as we're doing, like compassion and understanding for what you might be going through and how hard this might be. Maybe lean into that by trying to develop a relationship with her in a way that maybe breaks down her walls, like kind of get to the softer side. If there's any kind of cluster B traits, you know.
that they're just really insecure and they're terrified of feeling rejected and devalued. So, I mean, you don't want to reinforce the shitty behavior, but at least like getting underneath that and getting past all the defenses and really getting to know her and then being like, hey, uncle, we, you know, we love that you're happy, but I miss like one-on-one time with you. Can we hang out together and having like some time by himself? And then if he brings up like, I'm a pushover, be like.
what do you think, right? Like kind of gently getting that alone time to connect with him by himself, but then also just to.
have a lifeline just in case that it's really toxic, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:34.668)
Yeah. As for just surviving this, I mean, I don't know. could be that could be that, yeah, getting to know Mary better is the answer here. She might just be acting from a place of total discomfort all the time. She's making comments that come across as critical and awkward. And maybe that's just like a I don't know how to behave with people that I'm not jiving with.
You know, I don't know if she's trying to isolate the uncle because otherwise she has to spend a whole bunch of time with people that don't like her and that she she doesn't feel comfortable around. So I don't know. I mean, maybe just getting to know her better would be a key, but she also might not make herself available to be known. And in that case, it really is more of just like, how do we navigate around this folder? And I think there you're just it's we're back to acceptance and.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:35.088)
Well, we know how, we know the strategies for, sorry, hold on, my phone keeps making noises and I don't know.
Silence notifications. How do you do that?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:02.756)
Yeah, silent mode, great.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:08.656)
We know just with techniques of dealing with people with cluster B like narcissistic or BPD traits, that technique called gray rocking we've described before, if you feel like they're baiting you with devaluing or critical comments like, look at you, or just something that this little dig of, when you feel like they're looking down at you and you feel like,
you feel that your defensive hackles coming up, right? You just like, no, I'm better than you are also bad, right? Like if you, if don't get wrapped up in the power play that's being brought up, right? There's like the strong, like fight and competition that kind of can come up when you feel that or justifying or defending yourself, but just don't engage with that because that's.
where their comfort zone is just just gray rock which means just not giving much like detaching emotionally and not giving much back right you don't have to like talk back or give a comeback just be like if they make a comment about the way you look like all right what else like changing the subject kind of like letting it slide off you acting like it doesn't bother you even if it might
That might be in the early stages, maybe in the later stages when you get to know each other well and get to know Mary a little bit better. At least my technique is to point out those things, but like in a joking manner, like, ouch, that hurt or, you know, just like, yeah. I did see one of our one of our peers in grad school, like we were talking to someone who.
was just like saying outlandish things, bragging and saying all sorts of crazy stuff. And we all kind of rolled our eyes because this person is just a weirdo and just says weird things in public places and settings. And he just smiled. He's such a good therapist. He just smiled and he was like, wow, that was such a weird thing to say.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:24.737)
And it was just so blunt and it would just disarm that person and we were all laughing. But it was like a laugh with because he wasn't he he almost had this tone of like curiosity, like what a weird thing to say. And then so we were all in on it. Right. And it just it's that's a very hard nuance to get like a laughing and pointing out their behavior in a way that's still like compassionate and.
But I think that comes with time and a little bit of trust and a little bit of comfort with each other. Really hard to do.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:58.279)
to do. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:03.002)
I mean, there could also be like a conversation, right? With that person that's saying, you know, validate, validate, validate. Also that comment you made, really hurt my feelings or made me uncomfortable. you know, when we're talking about our aunt and you walked away, like, I don't know how to navigate that because we want to talk about her, but we can see that makes you uncomfortable. What do you think we should do? How do you feel when she's brought up? Right? Like having that honest conversation, which is really hard too.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:32.566)
I know I'm caught between first talking to the uncle about that. Like, hey, have you noticed that Mary kind of doesn't like being around when we bring up our aunt? You know, what do you think about that? Because it's it's hurtful to us. And we don't know what to do about it. But it could also be a good strategy to say, hey, Mary, like, I noticed that when we talk about, you know, our aunt that you kind of leave the room, I was wondering what that's like for you.
And just going there for going for the curiosity first and then kind of bring it back to like, you know, that makes a lot of sense. It's I guess what's tough for us is that we're still grieving her and for us, she's all around and we're so happy you're here too. But she's she's here. She's still here for us too. And it's it's really hard to not be able to talk about her and wondering if there's any way it could be more comfortable or something like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:29.881)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we're talking about just, like, making peace offerings instead of, you know, the stonewall or the intervention approach or the cutting out or ostracizing because that just makes it worse, right? That just makes it... That just goes into the direction that they don't want, which is more division in the family, so...
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:49.516)
Yeah. I don't know. I also don't want to leave Emma on a note where we just empathized with her step-aunt the whole time and then didn't give her enough because I would hate this. I think what's tough is that.
She has this woman hasn't done anything so glaringly unforgivable that it's time for like a let's kick her out of the family or like, you know, isolate from her yet. But clearly, if her whole family is feeling this way, there's something up, you know, like this isn't this is an Emma's immaturity or just like not being able to see what's going on because she's so grief stricken. mean, I think there's a whole mess of things, but this is really tough.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:20.698)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:33.852)
and clearly the whole family has feelings about it. I do wonder if they're pumping each other up a little bit. I know my family can do that. You know, I mean...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:40.228)
Yeah, that might be the case.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:47.748)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I...
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:49.784)
We're having this conversation about how to bring Mary in, and there might be a separate conversation of what if that's impossible?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:57.93)
Mm-hmm. What if that's impossible? What if Mary will just never get along with the family? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what if you, like, how do you just live with someone with clustered B-traits and not, don't have this magic healing fantasy where you have a conversation and you all cry and hug and suddenly you're, you're, you're great. I think as we said, step one is grieving, separate from her and
understand that she might be just like complicating and maybe blocking some grieving processes. So like, don't let that happen. Like grieve together, like talk about it and recognize that things have changed. And if the main goal and value is family closeness, then what does that look like now with her? It might look like just ignoring her, right? It might just be like smiling and laughing and making fun of her, but in a compassionate way, right? I think the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:48.29)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:56.782)
the one do not do is make her the enemy. Because they don't, anyone cluster B traits, they don't respond well to that. It doesn't take down their defenses, it makes it worse. Then the uncle's in a really tough position, literally between rock and a hard place. Everyone has to choose sides, and it's going to polarize him even further to defend her. And so just any kind of like,
pointing and, you know, ostracizing her. It's just gonna make it worse. So do anything but that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:31.468)
Yeah. And probably try to establish some time that you can have with him regularly, even just to check in on him. I mean, if she is Gloucester B, then we don't know. That's going to be tough for him eventually.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:39.002)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:43.631)
Right. Right. Let him have his crazy ex moment and then make sure he's a good prenup. don't know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:52.833)
That ship has probably sailed. I guess you can still revise your pre-nup after. yeah. It's interesting because I just think that this question changes depending on who the family member is. I mean, it changes so much. If she was talking about her mom, like her mom dying and being replaced, that might be a different episode if this was her brother getting married, like another different episode. So.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:12.842)
Hmm
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:19.31)
But I like this element, I like that it's an older kind of like patriarch, you know, like what you do there. So, I don't know, maybe there'll be other episodes we do where it's other family members, but I think that's all for now.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:31.642)
Yeah, but thank you to Emma. Thank you so much for submitting that. We welcome anyone else to do the same. We love hearing stories and we love hearing from you. So please send us message.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:42.734)
second that. And please remember to give us a five-star rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify and again yeah please reach out to us with prompts, with feedback, anything we would love it and we'll see you next time.
