Ep. 73 - Difficult Decisions in Romance: Breaking off an Engagement
We always have to make difficult decisions in romantic relationships, such as whom to choose, whether we should commit to someone, or when to leave. Although loved ones can sometimes want to weigh in on our difficult romantic decisions, it's hard for them to know exactly how to help. In this episode, we discuss Jacqueline's recent difficult decision to break off her engagement, what lead up to the decision, and the role that her loved ones played. We also share insights from the research on how people make difficult decisions in romance.
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Speaker 1: Welcome back, Little Helpers. Welcome to Season 3. Much has changed in the lives of Kibby and me. We have a new baby. We're down a fiancé. But we are still together. Really excited to start this season and I think because we have so many changes in our personal lives, that's where we're going to get started. So it's no mystery that I canceled my wedding two weeks before it was supposed to occur. Kibby was there with me every step of the way. And I wanted to address it and talk about it because it was a really horrendous experience. And a lot of people get divorced. Not a lot of people end engagements that close to the wedding. And I think maybe the reason is because people, there's so much momentum, um, so much pressure to, to keep going with it. There's a lot of money lost. And so people are really afraid to pull the trigger when they know something might not be right. And so they go through with it. They don't want to go through the humiliation, I guess, of telling friends and family that their wedding is off. They don't want to inconvenience people. And, um, it does suck. I mean, it's not a fun thing to do, but ultimately I'm really glad I made the choice that I made because I am avoiding divorce and, um, I I'm avoiding what would have been a worse situation. And so it's certainly something I, I want to talk about. Um, and yeah, again, Kibby was there. So, um, it's kind of nice because the, you know, the theme of our podcast is friends, helping friends, how can we help our loved ones? And Kibby was there and, um, helped me and played a really instrumental part. So welcome Kibby. Thanks Jacqueline, man. I mean,
Speaker 0: I talked about it in the divorce episode, but you know, we, we both have had an experience of, you know, this is it, this is the man we're in it. We're going to build a family and then facing the loss of all of that, you know, just like breaking, breaking, like I got a divorce and you broke up the engagement, which I'm really, really, I'm really, really impressed by. I think it's, um, I mean, I made the mistake of walking down the aisle when I had doubts and it is a really, the momentum is just a really hard thing to fight against. Yeah. Because there's so much praise, there's so much support, there's so much excitement and celebration around, oh, I found my one person. Yeah. And of course, like everyone has doubts about all of this stuff, right? Any commitment is scary. And I'm sure there's always a voice in the back of your mind that might be like, is this the right thing? And when the hard part is like, when do we know when to listen to that versus like, okay, this, there are my issues that I have to work through and I'm going to commit. So I can so easily see an alternate reality where I was just like, oh yeah, that's just the voice. That's just my commitment issues. And would have gone through with it and almost certainly would have gotten a divorce. And I mean, I'm glad I had people like you to look to and my sister, you know, people who had been through like fairly gnarly divorces to be like, oh, maybe I can make a different choice. I don't want to have to go through what they went through. Yeah. So we're going to, you know, I'm sure that a lot of you listening can, can relate where you might be in a relationship where you're not sure, but you're scared of like starting over or scared of losing the person, which is really understandable. And also if you have a loved one with this, like I, I just, I, there was, there was years where I didn't know what to do and didn't know what to say and didn't know what to say. Yeah. I mean, I was always honest with you, but, and we'll talk more about it, but I was always honest about you about, with you about what the issues look like and, you know, like what, what the choice, the hard choice you have to make and, you know, try to support you if this is something that you wanted to, you know, go with and marry versus break up. But, you know, like if there was a question in the back of my mind always, that's like, when, when do we kind of put our foot down and go, Jacqueline, you need to get out of this. Yeah. And if you went through with it, then where does that leave us? You know, like, where does it leave the loved ones and have this potentially be like our fault? You know, it's, it's tough.
Speaker 1: It's a tough situation for us. Totally. I mean, it's a question I see all the time on like dating, you know, dating Instagrams or podcasts or whatever of, you know, I hate my friend's boyfriend. What do I do? Not that you hated Paul. Um, um, but like, you know, I have concerns about my friend's boyfriend. Do I speak up? And usually the advice is to, to not speak up.
Speaker 0: We've said that before in the podcast, it's just like, to not speak up, be a listening ear and don't tell them one way or another. And then right as we, after we finished those episodes, I was like, Jacqueline, I don't know about this. I mean, what, what do we think the variables are? I, I would say if you just dislike the boyfriend, then it's not really necessarily your place because just because you dislike them doesn't, I mean, obviously the person dating them doesn't.
Speaker 1: Dislike them and people are attracted to very different kinds of people. But if you're noticing toxic behavior, yeah. Then that might be,
Speaker 0: Yeah. Time to speak up. Yeah. Well, tell, tell me like the view of the, you know, talk, talk about the relationship and you don't have to talk about what happened. Cause I know that there's a, there was a lot of kerfuffle online on the, on the, on the, on the interwebs about what happened and you don't have to get into the details. So I know that's not respectful for him, but, and also your relationship, but what, what did it look like from your perspective leading up to that moment, making that decision.
Speaker 1: And then the aftermath? So I think a lot of people are expecting an event to have occurred and there was an event, but it's not as though that event just totally changed, you know, my perspective and like, was the reason for the breakup. It was more like a final straw kind of event. Um, so the details of it are not particularly important because it's not like it's why we broke up. I will say nobody cheated on each other. Um, that was not it. No, you know, nobody hit each other or anything like that. Um, but the primary issue we had was I think, I think there were two, one was that we could not manage conflict. And then the second was just, I just think we were two naturally incompatible people. And so the things that made me feel happy and alive were very different from the things that made him feel happy and alive. Or maybe it's that the things that made me feel happy and alive were threatening to him. Um, and so I just didn't feel safe being my full self. And that was confusing because in many ways I did, I mean, I was on a date yesterday and I noticed, you know, we were playing music and I started like singing nonsense and, and it just came so naturally. And when I was with Paul, I would always just like sing these crazy nonsense songs all the time. And he just thought it was the cutest thing. So in a way, like I was very playful. I let down my walls in that sense, but there was always so much I was holding back. There was a lot of my life history. I just felt like I couldn't talk about without getting punished in some way or without making him really anxious. And so now my number one, number one thing I look for in people is like, do I feel safe being myself? And yeah, I just didn't have that with him. And I don't know that he had that with me either. I think there were a lot of, I think he felt a lot of the time, like I wanted him to change. And I think that's true. You know, like when you want your partner to change too much, it's kind of a bad sign.
Speaker 0: What were the things that were different between you guys? Like, what are the values? Because there were a lot of similar values, you know, at first what it looked like, but I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think, I mean, one talking about private, like, sorry, prior relationships and sex was always like a really loaded topic. But the thing is like with my, and he's a psychologist too, but we're two different kinds. I love to know everything about a person. And I love that person to know everything about me. And it was really difficult feeling like there were certain things I couldn't share because it would bring up insecurity or jealousy. And I think a lot of people listening to that are like, well, duh, like why would you talk about your previous sex lives? And I'm like, yeah, that's totally fair for some people. And it was totally fair for him. I'm just a different kind of person. And I also have never struggled to find people who are okay with me talking about those things. So it's not like I'm looking for some unicorn, you know, being, um, that was one thing. I think the major one was differences in how we wanted to feel independent versus free. And, um, I think I really bought into this narrative of our relationship that I was this like, you know, flirtatious, temptress person who just wanted to be off gallivanting around. But I don't actually think that was particularly true at all. I just think I wanted levels of independence that he, you know, he wasn't comfortable with. And he's talked on here about having separation anxiety. Like it was very difficult for me to take a trip by myself, for instance. Um, cause he really, he really, really missed me. And I didn't want to have a problem with that because it's nice to be missed. But I think when such a high value is like, I wanted one-on-one time with friends. I wanted to take trips with friends, not all the time, just once or twice a year, maybe. Um, and that was a big problem. Yeah. Do you have comment.
Speaker 0: On that? Yeah. I mean, I think you're, you're downplaying it diplomatically, but, um, it's, it's, people are like, wait a minute. Like my partner and I are different on that level. No, I think there was, I think this is a matter of, um, of like severity because yeah, of course, like people go on trips and you miss the partner. But I think it would toward the end, especially when things were really tough with you guys, it looked like you going on a trip or you spending time with a friend or, you know, whatever, making a new friend was seen as like a, a fundamental threat to your connection. Yeah. It was like, how could you do this to me? I got to retaliate by doing that to myself. It was like seen as a, as like a, a really intense rejection of him and your love for each other, which, you know, I couldn't understand, but that's, that's how it felt. I mean, that's what it looked like. It felt like to him. I think the problem is the dynamic got to a toxic place because it was almost as if there was a belief held by.
Speaker 1: Him that, and I mean, and I suppose this is true to an extent that like I was the one who was more likely to walk and that is what happened. Right. Um, he would always tell me like, you'd never leave me. Uh, and I think that that kind of, that creates a power imbalance where I was the threatening partner. And so my behavior and my freedom had to be constrained. Um, but because he was the non threatening partner, he got to do whatever he wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so it was really weird because it was almost, there was almost a sense of power and powerlessness that I felt like somehow I'm the more powerful partner. And yet I feel like I can't be free. There's so much of what I do that's a no, no. Um, I don't know if he would agree with that or not, but it's just how it felt.
Speaker 0: Yeah. And I think that that's really tricky because I think that's a, that, that whole power imbalance or that, that difference of like, you're, you're going to leave me and I will never leave you that already, first of all, devalues the person, right? Like devalues him. Right. Right. To be like someone who was just like walked all over and seeing himself that way. Seeing himself that way. Yeah. Um, and it also can be reinforced with control. Like, you know, the more it's like, oh, you, you were pulling away from me and it's making me upset. Don't do that. The more it kind of puts you on a leash. And that's the part that I was like, Oh, like, you know, you can't, how, how much do we compromise versus like fundamentally change yourself? And that's the, something that I saw in you, you started to like be smaller.
Speaker 1: In response. Yeah. And that was the feedback I got from people that really freaked me out. Um, yeah, I mean, that's a pretty classic anxious avoidant, anxious attachment style, avoidant attachment style dance. Right. I mean, the anxious partner, um, chases and chases and needs, needs the avoidant partner to be on a shorter and shorter leash in order to manage their own anxiety. Um, the avoidant partner may feel more powerful because it's like, oh, clearly this person wants me a lot. And yet I'm, I'm yeah. My behavior is really constrained. Whereas there's actually not constrained very much at all. Um, so yeah, that was a big part. I think another part that I'm willing to talk about, because he mentioned this onto your shandy actually, is that there was, um, this goes into conflict management, but when he felt hurt, he pulled her empathy in a very particular way, which was to hurt me back. So it was this belief that if, if I can make her feel as hurt as I feel, then she'll understand what she just did to me. Um, and that is not a good dynamic. I mean, because it always pushed me away, obviously. Um, and yeah, I mean, it just wound up with me being really, really hurt and feeling like, wow, why, why did you just lash out at me? Um, and the other problem is that it's, it's kind of like, there's this idea in this, in today's culture of impact versus intent. And there's a lot of conversation about how like intent doesn't matter as much as impact. And I'm not sure I agree with that because I think when you're with a really anxious partner, the problem is that you can do something relatively minor and the impact is really huge, but that doesn't mean that you should have done something differently. That doesn't mean that the reaction is in, uh, me, it's maybe bigger than it should be or could be. Um, and then when that's maybe your fault, that's a problem, right? So like, if I want to hang out with a guy friend and he gets extremely upset by that, that doesn't necessarily mean that I did something extremely upsetting. Right. But then if his reaction is extremely upset and then he wants me to empathize, then he might do something way worse so that I feel as upset as he does. Right. But suddenly the insult on his side is bigger than the insult on my side. If that makes any sense. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Because it would be read because the intention would, would be read differently. You were, he would read that as like, you were intending to go flirt or like leave the relationship in so many ways. And you were like, no, it's just a friend. But that intention was the insult to him,
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah, well, it just, I think like sometimes when people have really big emotions, you wind up feeling responsible for those emotions because very small things that you do can trigger a big emotion. And so then you start making yourself smaller because you don't want to upset them. And because you don't want to be punished by the big emotions.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that seemed to get all of this, all this dynamics seem to get more intense over time, right? Leading up to your wedding, which is ironic. I think what it was, what it was weird, because it was really bad the first year. And we've talked about that, like these dynamics were huge the first year, then we both went on SSRIs. And, and also like,
Speaker 1: I will come to the first year, I wasn't the right person for an anxious partner, because I was going through a huge identity shift of coming from New York to Duke, having a very easy nine to five to being in a PhD program. And from being like a single party queen to being in a very committed relationship. And that was a huge shift for me to take all at once. And I, you know, I talked about like, Oh, I'm interested in polyamory. And I'm uncomfortable in relationships to an extent, like, I'm feeling a lot of anxiety. I went in super hard at first, and then pulled way back. Like that was a setup for him to be anxious. And I get that. Like, I, I, you know, I would probably have been really anxious about that setup too, if I were him. So the first year was really rough. The second year was pretty good, though. And then the last six months tanked. So that I think that was the confusion was like, I'd seen us doing pretty well for a while. But then yeah, then there was this, yeah,
Speaker 0: Decline. So I mean, when we talk about this, the question I had for you, and maybe you could kind of reflect on this being out of the relationship was like, why did you commit? And we could talk about commitment in the sense because what we're talking about here is like, this is a series of decisions, right? Like, people want to talk about relationships, like it's, you find the one and it's, you know, then you walk down the aisle and have babies, like, yeah. And then if you're not with them, then, you know, naturally, you should break up. But it's not like that. We make a bunch of decisions along the way, right? And the research that might actually really apply here, it's, I just looked this up, it's called the investment model applied to relationships. And it's very simple. The investment model basically says that we, commitment is determined by three things, satisfaction, alternatives, and investments. Satisfaction means to the pros outweigh the cons. Alternatives is like how good other alternatives are out there, right? And the third one is investments, all the different resources that are associated with this partnership that we're afraid to lose. And I don't just mean material possessions, that's one like houses and things, but also like, your time and effort, them knowing things about you, your identity, social networks, right? So yeah, all of those things kind of lead up to how committed are you in this relationship, which of course, determines, are you going to stay or go? So for you, hearing how bad that first year was, yeah, what made you commit? And what made you actually like.
Speaker 1: Get that close to walking down the aisle? Paul is kind of an extreme partner. I mean, so the, you know, the lows were low, but that, and I don't mean the highs were high as in that classic, like passionate fiery relationship. I just mean like he was really generous. He was really thoughtful. A lot of the time he poured love into me in many ways. He was effusive. He told me he loved me like a thousand times a day. You know? I mean, there was a lot to lose with him and, um, yeah, I mean, a lot of the time he made me feel very loved. I think in the end, I realized that I didn't necessarily feel loved for who I actually was. And that was the problem, but I had never had a partner that put as much into me as he did. And I was trying to do things differently. You know, I was trying to, to be treated well in relationships. And yeah, I mean, besides the fights, like, um, I, you know, I really believe that he was totally devoted, never cheat on me and was very much in love.
Speaker 0: So it's funny. Cause even in that, in that, what you just said, what was it like? No one put as much into me as anyone else that has like all three. It's like a lot of pros. He's better than the alternatives that you dated and investments. He put a lot into you, right? Like helped you out, like did a lot of things for you. Um, he shared a home family, you know,
Speaker 1: Instrumental support was huge. Yeah. He was, he gave me a lot of instrumental support. Um, he made my life easier in a lot of ways, instrumentally, driving. I don't, I don't drive, you know? So like lots of, lots of rides. Um, you know, in the beginning we like did, we did a lot of things together, like hobbies together. Um, he was really invested in my family. And so we would drive to Charleston a lot. Um, you know, he, our house was a big hub for friends. We had the deck and grill and everything. And so a lot of people would come over as sort of a, an opportunity for community. Um, he cleaned the house more than I did. He was a very good cook. Like there's just a lot of, you know, there's a lot of instrumental support. And I think I became too dependent on that. Um, you know, and it made me kind of scared to be single again. Yeah. So yeah, there was that. I think another part is that I, I mean, it's just so bizarre, but I kind of lost the ability to be attracted to other men while I was in the relationship.
Speaker 0: And so the alternatives look flat, flatlined, which was so weird because I was always such a dater, you know, and now that I'm single again, suddenly men are attractive again. And I was like, Oh, there's lots of options. But yeah, during the relationship, I was like, you know, Paul is, Paul is extremely smart and he was extremely talented. And I have such a sucker for extraordinary people, people who are extreme in some ways. And he had these extraordinary talents.
Speaker 1: And I really admired that. So that was kind of, you know, I was afraid I wouldn't find that easily again. And then we did have a lot of investments in terms of, this was the person that I got over my commitment issues with. Um, and I didn't know if I could replicate that. This was a person I had three pets with. I had like 8,000 fruit trees with, I had the gardens, you know, I mean, it was just, yeah. I mean, I think the pets really had a huge part in delaying this breakup. Um, and yeah, like, his relationship to my family was also like pretty big.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about it because I think that when people are at wit's end or even like loved ones of people in a toxic or difficult relationship, you're gonna, everyone's going to focus on that horrible fight where he said these horrible things or the toxic part of the relationship. But now you're giving like a really rounded view of the whole relationship, but honestly, there were a ton of pros for the cons. And it was always a balance of like, do the pros outweigh the cons. And, and I'd love to, you know, I'm going to ask you in a minute, like, the moments leading up and like the actual, you know, the actual time when like everything shattered and how like we as friends and family factored into there. But being your friend, I could see all those pros, right? I was there hanging out with you in that house, and could see how he would like do things for you. And you two have a friendship. Yeah. And then, and, you know, I was friends with them. So I could see for myself, I could feel how he had a lot of things to give, like a lot of love to give. But then that was balanced with the times where I saw you fight, and saw you unhappy and saw how you were making yourself shrink. So to like, avoid a fight. So like, I was as ambivalent as you were. And sometimes, you know, like, there's a thing called ambiguity avoidance, where people stay in a relationship sometimes, just because they want to avoid that uncertain future, right? You, the devil, you know, you're going to stay with that person versus like, open up to a whole new world. And, you know, the good stuff that you're losing to with that. That was so bizarre for me, because going from having commitment issues, where the whole point is that you have all these choices, and that you love the unknown to all of a sudden, being terrified of ambiguity, it was just so strange, because I would sit there sometimes, like, you know, in the wake of these fights, or during the fights, I suppose, and just be like, why am I so scared to leave? Like, I know I can date, I know I like being single. And yet, I think turning 30 was part of it. And you know, I have older brothers and a lot of male friends, and they would always say like,
Speaker 1: You know, dating women in their 30s is difficult, because they just want marriage and kids right away. And it's easier to date someone in their 20s. And I was like, well, shit, that's scary. Like things are things gonna be really different. I started the relationship when I was 28. Now I'm 31. So I was afraid of that. I was afraid of being in a much smaller town that I had only dated in for three months. I was used to New York with all the choices. And yeah, part of me was like, have I forgotten how to take care of myself? Have I forgotten how to be single? So I would say that ambiguity fear was really big.
Speaker 0: Yeah. And then, and then what? Then you got out of it? How did that play out? I think there were a series of events, actually. You got to be there for both of them. Oh, yeah. I was fully pregnant. Watching this go down.
Speaker 1: The problem is, we would get into fights. And they would. So the first year, they would last like three days. The second year we got out, they were fewer and further between. And we could, we could handle them faster. But every fight required a mediator and you are often the mediator. So I just wanted to ask you about your experience with that.
Speaker 0: Being the mediator? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, I wonder, there came a point where I wanted to stop doing it, because it was too painful. And sometimes I wonder, I blame myself for stop mediating. Or, you know, because I basically didn't have capacity to being pregnant. Basically, when, when we were, you know, before the downfall, it was just trying to convince him that your actions of hanging out with other people wanting to go on a trip to New York to see your friends, like was not a sign that you didn't love him. And so it was almost like, browbeating him being like, she loves you. She's committed. She's never cheated. She never wants to, I would tell you, I'm her friend, like we, she has expressed no interest in doing that, you know, just kind of trying to reassure him. And, and eventually, it started to just feel really defeating, because it would work in the beginning, and he would calm down and kind of like shift to being more soft. But then it started to feel like I was trying to absorb his anger, so that you didn't get it. And so, and eventually, that stopped working. I worked in the beginning, he would be in a rage and say things that were really untrue and kind of mean. And I'd be like, that's not true. And also, that's not very nice. And yeah, I would kind of take that blow. So that by the time he talked to you, like, you would kind of be softer. But it stopped working, he would just go back and say the same things or even twist my words around. Yeah. So I was like, this, there's this anger, or there's this void that is just unsatisfied. Yeah. And I had to back out because I was just like, you know what? I can't be the buffer. If this anger, maybe maybe needs to go to this rightful place, which is at you to the point of like, you got to then you decide if like with the full scope of it, what would that be? You know, what decisions would you make with that? So yeah, I started to refuse to talk to him about these things. Remember, like, I was like, I can't do.
Speaker 1: This. Yeah, yeah. Then my mom would be the mediator, you know, for a while. It's hard, because he's really adorable a lot of the time. And he adored me. And there was this really, I mean, it seemed like there's this desire to understand and work it out. And he put he put all of his energy, in some sense into the relationship, or at least that was the narrative, I don't even know. And so, you know, we wanted to work out. And then the problem was that when we finally got over the fight, that was when we were closest. So the fights got reinforced, because as soon as we made up, it was like, oh, this huge sense of relief. You know, we'd, we'd want to do things together, the hobbies would come back, you know, we'd spend the day together, we'd be so happy. And I think that's something to look out for in relationships. I mean, you want things to be better after a fight. But also, you don't want it to be reinforcing of fights. And I don't really actually know how to solve that.
Speaker 0: Yeah, we've talked about that in a previous one of our like breakup episodes or some some episode on relationships where it's such a, it's such a cycle where, of, frankly, like toxic relationships, right? Where, yeah, there's tension, tension, tension. Then there's an explosion. Yeah. And then you have the pain of being away from them and the fight. So you basically have a withdrawal, right? It's kind of like a drug is withdrawal. And then you get together. And not only is reinforcing because you're together again, the fight is over. So you have a relief of the pain. Then you have the added love and affection. And then it's like glue, right? Like, right? I'm sure people listening has been have been in situations like this, where, you know, you fight and make up and that makeup honeymoon period is just right intoxicating. Right? So yeah, well, so that was a.
Speaker 1: Problem. I would say what, what did it was a the pressure of a wedding feeling like, you know, I really need to make this decision, like, because I had been kind of ambivalent, I mean, at different points in the relationship. And then I got, I was pretty sure. And then the ambivalence was only during fights. And so then I had this, this problem where I was like, I felt like I needed to make use of the fight sometimes to leave, like, if I don't leave now, I'm never going to because I know what happens after the fight, then we're even stronger. And so I would get very scared during fights. Like, Oh my God, the entire relationship is really on it. It's, it's kind of, uh, this is when I make my move either way. Um, and, uh, and then, you know, we'd go through these long periods of peace and it'd be like, Oh, what's the big deal? Like, this is so great. I'm treated so well. And so anyway, what finally I think did it was that other people saw the dynamic and, um, I didn't feel crazy anymore.
Speaker 0: So tell, tell me a little bit more about that from your perspective, because we have on this podcast said like, don't, if your loved one is in a toxic relationship, don't tell them to break up because that would actually put them closer. But, but how, so like, if you're a loved one, like what did, what did your loved ones do to make that work? Like, how did,
Speaker 1: How did that factor in? I still don't think you can tell someone to break up because they're not going to do it until they're ready to. And yeah. And that'll, that'll, I think a lot of times, this is what I've learned in therapy is that when you really want another person to do something, what you tend to do is get into a convincing role and you're presenting only one side of the argument and that puts them in the position of presenting the other side of the argument. So you can strengthen their resistance because they're suddenly there, they have to take up the other side of the dialectic basically. Um, and so I think when you're a friend, you can just say like, Hey, I'm really worried. I'm really worried for these reasons. And I don't know what you're going to do with it. I'll support you either way. But, um, people would always tell me like, it doesn't have to be this hard. I felt very alone in the fights. And so I would always want to reach out to you and be like, am I crazy? Am I crazy? Like what's going on? Is this normal? And I also remember this was my first real relationship. And so I didn't know what was normal. I kind of did, but I kind of did it. And I also, I didn't know what my contributions were. And so I didn't want to put everything on him. And when I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I know that I'm kind of an anxiety inducing partner maybe, or at least that's the story, um, that I do suck at cleaning the house that I do rely on him a lot. And I do maybe take him for granted. And I think the problem is that I spent so much time self-soothing internally about this relationship that I didn't have a lot of extra bandwidth to put into him. And so I think that he unfortunately is right that like, in, in some ways he put more into the relationship and he probably felt like he was being taken for granted. The problem is I was also putting a lot of energy into the relationship. It was just so internal. Yeah. Um, and so that looks like an imbalance and that made him more anxious. And I get that, you know, and that part of that, and then my thing was like, I don't know if that's my own commitment issues or if that's because there are problems in this relationship. And my gut is trying to tell me something like scream at me. And so I did a lot of self-invalidation of being like, no, Jacqueline, you always do this. The honeymoon period is over and you always start devaluing and start getting freaked out and want your independence and want to leave. And I was like, I don't want to do that this time. We've got a guy, you know, he really loves me. I don't want to be afraid of being loved. And so I'm going to, I'm going to push, I'm going to suppress these, this anxiety. And I use Lexapro to do that. And ultimately I'm actually glad I, I still, I still think Lexapro is actually the right move. Um, but I, yeah, I just used a lot of suppression and that became extremely confusing and it took a lot of energy and I'm worried about that in, in next relationships. I still don't know what that was. I still don't know if it was my commitment issues or knowing that the relationship was off,
Speaker 0: Probably both. Right. I remember that was a, one of a big reason why you would stay or forgive him. It was like self-blame. Yeah. Right. For your, and everyone has issues, right. That make it difficult to be in a relationship. But I could see that that was a mechanism for you staying probably longer than you needed to. So what, what changed? Like what? Other people saw, other people saw the dynamic. Was there like a comment or a conversation that stuck with you? Or like, that was like the, the lock and the key? Well, the first, the first was when,
Speaker 1: The first was when, um, that night I stayed with you for four days that night, the four nights I stayed with you, that was a big one because a friend had seen a fight and had been like pretty explicitly that that wasn't normal. And so then I was like, okay, I'm not crazy. And then, you know, I think I had some conditions that weren't met. And then we got closer to the wedding and my bachelorette party had a huge event. There were all of my friends saw the dynamic and it wasn't just seeing, there was a fight, but it wasn't just seeing the fight. It was seeing the whole weekend where it just felt like, yeah, I got the feedback that I was smaller, that I didn't have as much light, that it sounded like it seemed like the whole time I was trying to manage his feelings instead of being happy for myself or enjoying myself, just a lot of things. And that was huge. I still didn't end it. And then his friends saw it and that's when I ended it.
Speaker 0: Why was it his friends seeing it that made the final straw? Because I could always, or he could always write it off as, well, your friends are always on your side. And he would always say like, your friends are afraid of criticizing you or giving you feedback because you're so bad at taking criticism. And that was a really tough thing because I don't like taking criticism. I'm not the best at it. And I know that. And so I'm like, okay, well, now I have to be really good at taking criticism. Now I have to take more blame to show that I can take it. And so it became really confusing. Like what is my contribution? What is his?
Speaker 1: And I think ultimately we just, we were just incompatible. Like, I think that, I mean, of course I have my biases about what I think he needs to improve in himself, but I just think there are better partners for him than I was. And there are better partners for me than he was. And I think that's the problem. It's not like, it's not like he's a bad person. It's not like he's a narcissist or anything like that. It's just like when you have two really incompatible people, the dynamic can become toxic and both people can start acting in ways that aren't great. And yeah, I just,
Speaker 0: We were just incompatible. That's interesting that a big mechanism that kept you in was the ability to negate your own or invalidate your own feelings of wanting to get out by like blaming you and being like, well, there's like, there's, I don't want to listen to the things that just placate me and tell me that I'm amazing, even though I'm probably wrong. But then you needed like such a third party that has no investment in making you feel better. His friend who was just like, Whoa, yeah, I also think this is bad, right? There's someone who has every reason to support him and be like, that guy's right, you're wrong. Right? That that's, that's the that was the final straw. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, speaking as like, you know, a loved one. It was it was funny, because I think you and I have hung out alone for the past year. And I don't think I've talked to a lot of other of your friends about you know, this. But at the bachelorette party, that was the time where everyone there independently was having the same thought. And we, there was a moment where we realized that all of us were feeling the same way. And we all were kind of like keeping it in just to be like, we just support her and be happy. And then as soon as that came out, there was a lot of emotions and a lot of like, oh my god, we all feel this way. We got to do something and stop this wedding. Yeah. And I was, I was still on the train of, you know, she's gonna get married, like, like, deposit for the venues in we got our planes booked. Yeah, momentum is hard been there projecting my own, like path. Right. And also being like, yeah, I see that there is a lot of good stuff. And they go back and forth. And maybe this is just who they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are always the most tempting person to talk to, because you were pretty diplomatic, and because you saw the good parts too. And you were friends with him for a while. And so, you know, it was hard talking to other friends who had a wholly negative opinion, because I'm like, well, that's not totally accurate. If you really want to ruin a wedding, band, all of the bride's friends together and tell her that they don't want her to get married, because that, you know, that really sucked. Yeah, that really sucked. Because basically, what I decided after Vegas was to not get legally married, but to go through the wedding. And that was a 10s of 1000s of dollars wedding, you know, and it was my dream wedding. And I basically knew that even if I went through it ceremonially, I was going to stand up there feeling like a fool. And so was he, you know, he didn't want to do it. He's like, your friends hate me. And I was kind of angry at first. I was like, you know, my maid of honor told me she wasn't going to give a speech. That actually still kind of hurts me to be honest. And it was just kind of like, well, what's the point? And it's really hard when you've spent 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars to be like, well, either way, this is a waste either way, like this wedding is just going to be trashed. But in the end, you know, it made it easier to call it off, because I'm like, it wasn't going to be fun. Anyway, like, this wasn't going to be a joyful, beautiful occasion. Because half my wedding party was not in support of the wedding. Maybe all of the wedding party.
Speaker 0: Looking back, if you were to tell us the best way to go about this, would you have changed? Would you suggest anything with like, talking also to people probably in the position that we were like, watching your friend going down the aisle.
Speaker 1: With someone that they're scared of? I actually thought your approach was good. I think I had some friends who were more controlling. And they were like, you cannot get married, you shouldn't get married. And that was hard, because it was my decision. And no, they didn't see the relationship. You know, it's, it's, it's, you're not going to listen to that friend. If that friend has not been intimately involved in your relationship, because you're like, Okay, well, I get that you're seeing the bad stuff. You're not seeing the good stuff.
Speaker 0: However, my softer approach would have had you going down that aisle. I was like, let's let her just get married and make decisions later. Like,
Speaker 1: So, yeah, maybe I mean, yeah, maybe the people who are controlling just they took the, they took any beauty out of the wedding anyway. So I don't know. I don't know. I mean, obviously, I'm glad it shook out the way it did. But I just it at the at the time it it's, it's, it did not like feeling kind of overly controlled by my friends. But I don't know, I don't fully know what to say about it now. I your friend is doing the wrong thing, and you're willing to risk it, then maybe, maybe do that.
Speaker 0: Yeah, I think maybe the kind of synthesize is like, different approaches were helpful, right? My my more neutral approach or like more ambivalent helped you kind of explore your feelings about it and not feel so ashamed when you went either way. I'm guessing.
Speaker 1: You had a very strong opinion, though. You just weren't telling me whether or not to get married. Right.
Speaker 0: Right. Yeah. I see. I see. And I still believe that I still believe that people getting married is like a choice, right? Right. I could have an opinion about the what your relationship looked like, and how happy it made you look to me. But people get married for all sorts of reasons. That is not my business, right? It's none of your love. It's none of your loved one's business. Unless like you're the parent paying for the wedding or something like that. It's none of your business to make that decision for people. I still believe that strongly. And I know that might be not like the therapist thing to say. But I also think sometimes divorce is the right answer. Because if you're not ready, you're not ready. And if you end it, then there's too much of a chance you're going to get back together. There's too much of a chance you're going to act like regret it or just not feel settled about it. And it's as much as it.
Speaker 1: Sucks. Like, sometimes it's better to lose the money and everything to at least have the certainty and peace of mind that you've done the right thing. I'm glad I got that certainty before.
Speaker 0: The wedding. Yeah, I'm as you know, I went through the route of divorce. And boy, it would have been a lot cheaper to do what you did. So also, it's called the sunk cost fallacy, you put in some money, you put in some something, and then you keep going with that decision because you're like, well, I already put something in there. I'm gonna keep going. That's a fallacy because you end up losing a lot more by going with it than just pulling out. But yeah, something I had to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm glad I saw I'm glad I saw some disaster divorces like yours, which was very expensive. Because I was like, yeah, it could have been very easy to go with the sunk cost fallacy and just finish paying for the wedding and go through the wedding and then and then be fucked on the other end.
Speaker 0: So yeah, yeah. Right. So you made that hard decision. And it was a hard decision. It wasn't like I think we could kind of agree that there were steps towards it, right? There's many decisions. And then one final one. And even after you still were like questioning it. So like it, let's say it was like a process. Yeah. And then when that happened, we were in Portugal, we were at your wedding venue. Yeah. While you were in that breakup phase. How did that feel? What did friends and loved ones do to support you? What did they do to.
Speaker 1: Not support you? Friends, friends were critical. So first of all, I knew I had the support of my family to end the wedding to cancel the wedding. And that was important because my parents paid for a lot of it. But my mom had had a first marriage where she when she was walking down the aisle, she knew it was a mistake. And so she's like, this is feeling too reminiscent. Do not think about the money. I don't care. I just don't want you to repeat what I did. So she was very supportive. That friend of his actually really helped me through it. She was really instrumental. I basically knew it was that thing I talked about earlier when I was in the middle of the fight. That was when I had the decision of I can't make up from this fight because I know what will happen. And I know there will be another fight. And I know this cycle is going to go on forever. So in the middle of a fight, that's when I left. I got a hotel tonight and then I took a train to England the next day because I was in Scotland. And I went to England because I had a very good friend there named Marvin, who has just, you know, it's always been there for me. He's a very nurturing person. And I stayed with him for like a week and cried it out. But in that, you know, the thing is when Paul and I would make up, I mean, he was the sweetest person. And so we had, when I was on this train ride, we were texting and it was just fucking heartbreaking, like absolutely ripped my heart out. And so that was when we were kind of like, we have so much pain and we don't know where to put it. So we're going to give it to each other because it was, he was the only satisfying person for me to talk to. And there was this, there was this pain of knowing, like, this isn't going to last or there's going to be a round of anger. You know, there's going to be a round of denial, a round of questioning and everything. But for right now, we're still kind of in this together. We haven't diverged yet on our own paths of healing. And it was really tempting to keep that moment going as long as possible. And so that was just like one of the most heartbreaking parts of the, of the breakup. And it was heartbreaking also because we were, we were very loving towards each other that day and kind of knowing that that was going to end. Um, and it did end. And there was a lot of back and forth of like, um, him asking me to not do this, you know? And I would say telling somebody you love no and saying, no, I will not be a source of support for you. And it will not, I will not give you what will make you happy. Um, I'm rejecting you. That was the most intense pain I think I've ever felt. And having to do that repeatedly was just bringing me to my knees. And I eventually had to tell him to like, I was like, I, I can't allow you to ask me this anymore because it's causing me way too much pain. And that's, that's hard for him to, to be like, I'm not even allowed to ask. I'm not even, you know, um, and yeah, that was awful. Uh, but then, you know, there, the moments of anger would come and the fight, you know, there was still some fighting and that's, I was like, okay, I made the right decision. You know, I think a breakup can, um, really highlight the dynamics that were unhealthy in the relationship. And suddenly when you're no longer together and you're, you're, you're mad at each other, like those dynamics get really blown up and they were very easy for me to see suddenly. I was just like, yeah, we don't work together. It's just, and so I actually got closure fairly quickly because some of the behaviors that I saw were like a lot worse after the breakup.
Speaker 0: It's so funny how that happens. Um, Alex, my partner and I will talk about how when sometimes when you go through a really tough breakup, you could see the matrix code. Like there's, I don't know what it is, like you maybe get distance or you just, but you can start to see the problem so clearly in the breakup phase. And it could actually just reaffirm your decision and be like, oh wait, he said this, I said this, and then they do this. And I could see that not.
Speaker 1: Working. Yeah. Yeah. I know it was crazy. Um, and I still would get sucked into the dynamic because I still love him. And, um, yeah. So, but that, that kind of back and forth, like really illustrated, like, this is not a healthy thing. The way friends helped. I mean, so Marvin was the first person just, you know, him taking care of me for a week. And then I went from there to Portugal and all of you were there. And I think this really helped with the wedding sadness. I basically, I had already paid deposits on everything. Um, and that wasn't going to get that money back. So we basically called every place and they were like, we were like, what can we get for the amount that we spent? You know, we only have half the number of guests now. So yeah, we still had our cat Miranda. We still had the rehearsal dinner. And then we did like a photo shoot at the wedding venue. Um, and that was kind of healing to at least be able to experience the things that I paid for, you know, and like not lose absolutely everything. But it was also amazing to be surrounded by the people I love most and everybody just really put in everything to take care of me and to make me feel better. Um, and then on the actual wedding day, um, Zach kind of suggested to people that we do a living wake, which is where the person pretends to be dead and all their friends give toasts. And that was just such a great way to like memorialize what happened and to make that day special and to change its meaning significantly. And I think, you know, also because my favorite part of every wedding is the toasts. And so at least I still got to have that favorite part of, you know, the wedding. So yeah, just, and I, you know, people took over the things I hate most. I hate logistics. So other people got all the Ubers and we settled up later, you know, other people made decisions about where to go and when. And, um, so I just didn't have to like deal with that.
Speaker 0: And it was really great too. Yeah. I could see how we, um, you know, when someone breaks up with someone else, there's a, there's a hole that's left, right. There's a lot of loneliness of there's, there was, you know, a home, a wedding, a family, right. There's something that the relationship brings that makes you feel full and, you know, the companionship and then losing a wedding would be really painful because it's like, it's such a great celebration where you do cool things with all your friends and family. Um, so I guess it was nice that we were able to maintain that and like fill that hole and still do that while, you know, you're going through that painful breakup. So it's not like you lost, lost that great celebration and him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It wasn't a complete loss at all. I mean, I'm always going to remember like we, when we did our breakup episode, remember I was like, I had my favorite breakup because my friend made it special for me. It's kind of similar here. Like I'm always going to remember that my friends really pulled out all the stops for me and that I wasn't alone and it wasn't a total loss. Um, and I got to feel support. And so that was great. So that's something you could do for your loved one. Like whatever that person is losing with that breakup, try to fill it with something fun to something like similar, even in like, um, even in like honoring the loss kind of way. Right. Like.
Speaker 0: We all, we didn't, we didn't have the wedding, but we all did all the fun things around it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess the last thing I have to say about all of this that surprised me was that it's been really difficult for me to keep the mutual friends. Um, you know, we had some mutual friends in the sense that some people were more my friend than his like you. Um, but we had some like mutual friends who either, you know, I met them and then Paul became a slightly better friends or, or not even that, but they've all kind of formed a friend group and they hang out mostly with him. And I know that there's an open invitation for me to be in their lives as well. But even though it's so weird, like, even though I'm no longer angry at Paul, I'm kind of like feel betrayed, you know? So even if I can be like, Oh yeah. Like I have a positive outlook towards Paul. I think I still am just like, you guys didn't make an equal effort with the two of us. Um, and I felt, uh, yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's just, it's just hard when like, you know, what you went through, you know, the pain you suffered in the relationship and they choose the other person. And of course, like I get from their perspective, you know, they're, they're not thinking about it that way, but I just didn't realize how hard it would be to maintain those friendships. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I that's,
Speaker 0: That's hard for them as well as, as us. Um, if you, if you, when you look at your loved one and you're equally friends with both them and the partner, it's, there's no good way to go about it. Yeah. Right. Because like, if you, if they maintained a perfectly 50 50 relation with both of you, they might be in a weird position of mediating. And then like having information about how the other person's doing that they're hiding from you, you know, like it's, it's very complicated and sometimes it's just easier to, I hate to say pick sides, but yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: Already like one of my friends, you know, I confided in her about a new person I was dating and she told Paul and I was just like, well, fuck, you know, like, okay. Um, and it's funny because the person I was talking to about this was Paul. I was like, it's, it hurts me that these people like inform this group. And he was actually comforting. He's like, well, you know, I was the one who got dumped. So I think sometimes people are going to crowd around the person who's hurting more. I was like, thanks. That's a nice thing to say. I mean, all of this is so weird because at the end of the day, like Paul and I might have a good relationship going forward. Maybe not if he listens to this episode, I don't know, but I, I was, I was trying to, um, I hold him in largely positive regard. It's just, man, um, there was a lot of good relationship. I'm really grateful for knowing what it's like to feel adored and, um, to have that much energy put into me. And now I know that's possible and that's what I'm looking for in future partners. And I thank him for that. And I'm sorry for my contributions. I'm sure I took him for granted. I'm sure I didn't seem like I was putting in as much energy and I know I'm, you know, I, thanks to make him insecure. And, um, yeah, I guess that's it.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Well, I'm proud of you. I know that wasn't easy. Um, you're articulating it in such a nice, even keeled way, but I, I saw how, um, heart wrenching it was all the way through from the good times and the bad times. So, and I think what we're trying to say with this episode is like, is a series of, you know, staying with someone or breaking up with them as a series of decisions. And you can make a always easy. It's not like we wish we still wish there was like a deal breaker or like, uh, Oh yes. This is how we know that we definitely can't be with this person. It's not, it's right. You had to make the decision over and over and over again. Right. I will say another thing from the literature is that we tend to overestimate the pain of the breakup. And I definitely did that.
Speaker 1: And honestly, I am really happy right now. Um, there were some stumbles, you know, it wasn't a linear healing trajectory, but I'm like loving being in my own apartment. I can take care of myself. It's fine. Um, and I'm enjoying dating. I'm like enjoying my life. It was a lot less difficult than I thought it would be. And you can do it guys. You can do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always like, whenever people think about breaking up, they're like, yeah, but what about the cats and the house and the things? And when you actually decide to break up and know it's right, that stuff just becomes trivial. I mean, painful, painful, but it doesn't become the thing like, well, I got a cat with them. I'm going to stay in this room. It's like, it's so funny. My rent, I'm in the same apartment complex I was in before my rent jumped $700 in a year. Uh, and I was like, I was having almost having a panic attack on the train platform when my mom was telling me what the new rents were. I'm like, how am I going to live? How am I going to survive? I wasn't paying rent with Paul's. And then I think like Paul took care of me financially. I have, I want to like give him credit where credit's due, you know? And I was very scared. Like, I don't have enough money to pay for this apartment. I don't really know how I'm doing it. Um, but it just doesn't matter at the end of the day, when you realize you're, you have a sense of freedom and respect for yourself and hope in the future. So yeah, you can do it if you're in this situation.
Speaker 0: Well, at least that gives us a lot of fodder for future episodes. So please everyone who, you know, you have requests or questions or ideas for things that you want us to cover,
Speaker 1: You let us know. Thank you all for tuning in and coming back to us after our break. Everyone congratulate Kibbe on maternity leave. Yay, Kibbe pushed a human out. And you also pushed a person out. So kidding, kidding. I pushed a person out. I pushed a teratoma out of my body. That was kind.
Speaker 0: Of a person. Yeah. And for resources, we're just gonna, I'm just going to put up that paper that we've been referencing. It's called Commitment and its Theorized Determinants, A Meta-Analysis of the Vestman Model. Basically, it's an academic paper. I thought it was really good. And it basically describes how these relationships, these romantic relationships are a series of decisions. And like, we have the science for understanding how people make decisions. So if you're like, questioning your own decision making, you can check this out and kind of think about how it applies to you.
Speaker 1: Perfect. All right, little helpers. Well, Kibbe and I would love to interact with you all more. So if you want to DM me at Trombolina, I'm always there. And we have a website, a little help for our friends.com. That's where we post our resources. But there's also a contact us box there. And we promise we are getting better about checking that email. We love hearing from you. Please let us know any, any stories you might want us to share on the pod, any episode ideas or any questions you have. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only. And any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general non commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast. And information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.
