Ep. 41 - Dealing with Toxic Family Members

Although they love us and often want the best for us, family members can often be huge sources of stress. Sometimes parents and other close family members can be difficult because they suffer from a mental illness, but other times our relationship with them is just toxic. In this episode, we talk with Dr. Caitlin Fang, a psychotherapist who has both personal and professional experience with dysfunctional family relationships. We discuss different types of toxic family dynamics as well as tips for how to cope with them.

If you need help dealing with a toxic family member, we're here to help. Sign up here for a free 30 minute consultation to learn how co-host Dr. Kibby at KulaMind can support you.

• Transcript

  Speaker 2: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We have another pretty requested episode today, which is how to set limits with family members where you might be in a toxic dynamic. And joining us today, we have Dr. Kaitlyn Fang. You may remember her from our trauma episode. Kaitlyn is a clinical psychologist in private practice. She has lots of experience helping clients set these sorts of limits, and she also has lots of personal experience needing to set these limits. And so we will hear from her both professionally and personally. Welcome,

  Speaker 0: Kaitlyn. Thanks, Jacqueline. I'm happy to be here. Me too. I forgot to mention that Kaitlyn is one of our good friends, so we'll be calling you Kaitlyn instead of Dr. Fang.

  Speaker 2: Yes. So this is a pretty frequently requested episode, which indicates that a lot of people out there are trying to set limits or consider some of their family members to be toxic. So what kind of dynamics do you see frequently that would require this kind of intervention?

  Speaker 0: Totally. So I think it's really complicated because we have a lot of like societal norms and pressures that we are supposed to love our family members no matter what. And so there are a lot of like, a lot of the patients I see, I happen to have a population that struggles with family that have emotion dysregulation. And the most common thing I see is just so much guilt around like not being a good daughter, not being a good son, because you're trying to set limits in these really complicated relationships. And so the most common thing I see is like this recognition that every time I talk to this person, I don't feel good. Like I leave feeling attacked and criticized and just then internalize that and think like, there must be something wrong with me. Why can't I just handle this? Why can't I tolerate it? Everyone else has this perfect relationship. And so I think like there's this complicated dynamic where there are some really problematic things being done by parents. And yet like a lot of the kids are taking on the responsibility of trying to have this perfect relationship, or at the very least, figure out like, what is my responsibility to this person who gave birth to me? While they are being actively cruel, in some instances, like how do I fulfill my values of like being a good person? And so it's complicated.

  Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something like that? I imagine it's hard, because especially with family members, it's like, you know, they love you, you know, they're trying to, you know, even doing things under the guise of like, I'm doing this to make you better or to make you grow or doing this because I love you want to be stronger or whatever. But can you give us an example of a situation that you see with patients that can can seem like that, but it actually are harmful?

  Speaker 0: Totally, I think it would probably be helpful to give some background from my life and like why I got into this. So I have a mom who struggles with borderline personality disorder and addiction, and that dynamic is totally there. She loves me so much. She is like, very sweet and very kind and also has struggled with suicide throughout my life and with boundaries. And so for me, that dynamic would look like her calling sometimes like 80 times a day, like calling and calling and calling and calling and being like, please, where are you? I need you. I'm in so much distress. And then when I would pick up, there would be like suicide threats or like imminent crisis. And so it was really hard for me to, like, live my own life and to show her love in a way that she could receive. And unless it was like 80 times a day, if I would answer once, it would be like, well, you don't love me enough and you didn't pick up and you haven't been there for me. And so it was just constantly feeling like I needed to give more of myself than I could while also like, honestly, the job of a parent is to be able to let your kid go at some point and to like, let them live their life and do things on their own. And yet there is this like clinging, like, I want more of you. I want you to like, focus all of your love and energy on me. And so from the outside, as is the case with a lot of my patients, it's like, oh, well, that's just a really loving mom, right? Like, oh, she just so wants to be in contact with you. That's so compassionate. And yet, on my end, it felt like emotional hostage, where like, constantly, unless I was there, whenever she needed me, she would try to kill herself, or she would go and drink a lot. And so there would be this like, constant nervousness around like, I need to be on call constantly, or she's literally going to die. And that is just a really hard thing to like, live your own life while also trying to be like, quote unquote, good. And so you see that with patients as well, where sometimes it's very similar, where they're just like, why don't you love me? And the patient will be like, I do. It just isn't in the way that you want. Like, I'm not telling you that I love you 87,000 times a day. Or even if I do, then it's like, well, you don't show it. You didn't invite me to lunch. And you're like, well, you didn't ask me, you didn't tell me you wanted to go to lunch, I'd be happy to go to lunch. But lots of this like, please, please, please love me without any clear indication of.

  Speaker 2: What it is that the expectation would be. How do you or how did you go about managing and then finally overcoming your guilt enough to where you went from? If I don't pick up the phone, I might lose her to suicide or addiction to no, I just can't hold this responsibility.

  Speaker 0: I actually think like, for me, it helped to think about the longevity of the relationship. So like, these are relationships where we're in it for the long haul. And like any relationship, if you start to get like resentful and burnt out, and you're trying to like give and give and give and you're not getting that replenished, eventually, you're just going to be like, screw it, I'm out, you know, like, we can't sustain that over a decade over 50 years, we just can't. And so for me, I had to think about like, what can I give in a way that like, I will still want to talk to her in like a year or in five years? And like, how can I convey that in a consistent way where she still gets me? And like, when I answer the phone, I'm not just like sitting there being like, when is this going to end? I hate this, but I have to talk to her like, is there a potential where I could create a dynamic where when I do talk to her, she actually gets like love and compassion and attention. And that just means like, less time. And so for me, it was, okay, like, personally, what can I actually give? And that took me a long time to think through, like, is once a week enough is once a day manageable? Like, how long is that conversation? Can I give her five minutes and be present and engaged? Can I give her an hour and be a little checked out? Like, what is it that I need to feel okay? And then like, holy crap, guys, like years of trying to instigate that, like figuring out the boundary is one thing. And that can be really painful and hard. But then like, communicating that in a way that it is heard, and following through even when she is escalating and being like, you didn't call me now I'm gonna take all these pills. It's like, whoo, man, it is really hard to kind of like play that emotional chicken game and be able to look in the mirror and be like, Okay, you are doing the right thing. You are doing the thing that is good, even though it's really hard. Yeah, even just, you know, being by your side, being your friend watching this, it does speak to how much this is like a.

  Speaker 1: Lifelong learning process, right? Like, you think at some point, we're like, okay, I could figure out how to do this with my mom or dad or whatever, and be done with it, or even cut them off or something that's that seems like, here's the moment, but it just seems to be like a constant practice of working through that guilt, setting those limits again, having to reiterate, maybe changing those limits based on different situations. But I think this is really interesting, because I think when we first started talking about this right now, I was picturing like an outright abusive relationship with your parents, like parents that are, you know, you know, verbally or emotionally abusive, but actually kind of what we're talking about here, too, is something that I'm seeing more and more is like too much love, like too much closeness, right? Like, especially in the pandemic, where people are kind of stuck together, or with the technology now where parents can be really connected to you at any time, right, even tracking on the phone or FaceTime or text messages. It's like, how do we set limits with parents who, it's just like love's too much. They're just too involved, and we feel so guilty for saying, you know, stop talking to me now. I can't constantly text with you, even though you.

  Speaker 0: Love me so much. So that's, it's interesting. Yeah, and I think like, I see that in romantic relationships as well, where like, in some ways, it is more clear if there is like direct abuse, right? If somebody is hitting you and beating you, it's easier to be like, okay, this is really clearly not okay. I can draw limits when it is more like, the affection based or guilt based, it's a little insidious. It's like playing off of this, like, oh, well, there's nothing egregiously terrible. So like, what's wrong with me that this feels so bad. And that's actually usually the dynamic that I'm seeing with my patients is parents who would like more closeness and connection, but the ways in which they're looking for it are very like attacking and blaming and shaming. And they're based on like, guilting that person, like, if you loved me, then you would be doing all of these things. And you're not and like this bar that the person just like tries and tries and is like, maybe I can reach it. And yet, like, it's never enough. Like, no matter how much you are giving, you're just not meeting whatever bar there is, because there isn't one that person just like isn't able to feel and recognize love. And that is tricky. And then I obviously do have some people where it's just like, oh, no, that person is really mean to you like that. That's really mean. And people who have just gotten used to that and are like, no, no, no, they don't mean it like that. And you're like, they may not. And like, that's still really mean. If anyone else said that to you, you'd be like, well, of course, I'm not going to be friends with that person. But when it's family, it's harder to say, like, they're dead to me, because, you know, they call a slut every time I talk to them. Well,

  Speaker 2: Do you see? So I know, I mean, I know this episode is sort of focused on how to set these limits. But one thing I've seen clinically is that patients in this dynamic have there's reverberating effects. So they may struggle to I mean, this is my very limited sample. So I want to pass the ball to you and see like what you've seen, but struggle to be confrontational with other people struggle to define their own desires and values and needs because they're constantly catering to somebody else. And they've gotten used to throughout childhood and adulthood, but then used to putting themselves second to the guilt trip that they're under. Do you see things like that?

  Speaker 0: Oh, absolutely. And this feels like an odd thing to say, because it's a positive judgment. But like, most of the folks who are coming to me for this are like some of the most lovely humans that like I have ever encountered. And the thing that they struggle with is the like, being able to trust yourself. Because if you're doing good, in the way that you think, like I am being a good person, and the person whose opinion you hold in high regard is constantly telling you like, no, you're terrible at this, you are not, you're not doing enough, this is not good enough, this will never be enough, then you start to be like, wait, am I good? Like, am I doing the thing? And it's really hard to learn, like, their reaction does not cannot be the basis of like, whether or not you are doing the thing, because you can do all of the things and still not get the reaction you want. It is this like constant effort of like, okay, what is the behavior that will make me know, like, I am being a good daughter. And then even if the parent is like, no, you're a horrible daughter, having to like hold that in your mind that like, no, no, I am, I'm calling every single day. I am like sending the Mother's Day thing I am like doing the behaviors that make me feel good about myself. But it does it has this pervasive impact where you're so used to doing all the things and trying to like, be good and constantly doubting so you can find other relationships where it's confirmed, like other romantic partners or friends where you like do all the things and they're like more and more and more and you're used to it. So you don't recognize like, oh, this is problematic across the board. Or like, sometimes you find that there are like lovely supportive partnerships. And it's the act of learning, like, how can I rely on this person and like, give up some of that, like I have to constantly be perfect, or everyone's going to explode and actually be able to like breathe and accept love in those relationships.

  Speaker 1: Oh, we're getting you're hitting close to home for me. This is, this is, this is something like, I'm like, Yep, yep, yep. I resonate with all those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we talked about this, where my mom has struggled with addiction. And I think also, at least from my experience, I don't know if this is with, you know, all the situations we're talking about. But it's when, you know, my mom, for example, she was looking for love or something from me to fill a void that she was feeling like not feeling love from her family or whatever. And so there is this insatiable need that I can never fill. But what that looked like was what you're talking about where it's like, love me, love me. And when I was trying to show it, it would never feel enough. So I felt like I was the one rejecting or the one in power, but yet I felt totally disempowered, right? And then it plays out in my romantic relationships where I constantly feel like I'm not enough. Or when I try to do all the things to try to compensate. And yeah, so we are, we are getting getting deep to my truth. So this is feeling this is feeling interesting, real, it is so real. And guilt feeling that it like I feel driven by guilt a lot of the time where it's like, I'm not doing enough. Oh, no, that person doesn't feel loved. You know, or I'm not doing I'm not good enough. I haven't done enough.

  Speaker 0: And the hard part is like, not to get too nerdy about emotions. But the function of guilt is to tell you like, are you violating your own personal values? And so if you were like going and screaming at people or like never showing any care and doing a bunch of things, then guilt would be totally appropriate is your signal like, hey, you're not doing a great job, maybe do better. The problem is when that gets hijacked by somebody else who is telling you like, you're doing bad, you're not doing enough. And you internalize that. It's kind of like folks with an anxiety disorder. It's like a guilt disorder where it's just constantly this alarm bell going off and telling you like you're doing bad, you're a bad person, you're not doing enough when really like, that's just not accurate. And so to be able to think like, okay, what am I actually doing? Would I do anything different? Like, is there something that I want to be doing to like, actually show care in a different way? And often the answer is no. But like, how do you let that go? And how do you recognize like, yes, the feeling is real, and the guilt is real. And like the desire to show love that's real, but actually, I'm not doing anything wrong. And that's a really hard thing to reconcile.

  Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you have any advice for how to get there?

  Speaker 0: Yeah. So like, my first thing would be noticing guilt, and then like, gently wondering if you can turn it towards compassion. Because often, like, I feel genuine sadness for either my mom, or like my patient's parents, like, that is such a painful spot to be to not be able to feel loved, to constantly feel like you so desperately want connection and not feeling like you're getting it, you can be really, really sad, and like, really understand that they're not trying to be cruel, and that they're not like, these evil people. And that doesn't mean like, you have to do something about it. If we can feel like compassion, and we can like genuinely understand their pain and be kind, like, that is actually probably really helpful, both for you to not freak out and feel resentful all the time. But it isn't this guilt signal where like, I need to do better. I'm a bad person. It's more like, I am an okay human being, and this person is still suffering. So like being able to hold both at once. And also to be able to learn self trust, to be able to like, notice that other people's reactions to you do not necessarily reflect like, reality, and being able to check in with your own reality and think through like, what is it that I'm doing? And like, what are my values? Like, who is the daughter that I want to be? Do I want to talk to my parent every single day? Because in my mind, that's like what a good daughter does. And that's what I want to do, versus like what this other person wants, because you will never reach it. Like you will not succeed if that's the bar. So it's more like, what feels right for me, what feels good. And sometimes that's a sacrifice. There are times like, I don't want to talk to my mom, but I do it because I'm like, okay, this is really meaningful for her and not a high cost to me. There are other times when I'm like, when I was in the middle of writing my dissertation and doing a bunch of stuff. And I could not or I chose not to talk to her every day and being able to be like, that's okay. Sometimes we can't prioritize ourselves.

  Speaker 1: It's interesting to think, thinking about the way you're framing it is based on like being aware of your own feelings and your own reactions to it. Because I'm sure a lot of people in this situation would kind of want to know how many times a day is it normal to talk to your mom? Or when am I screwing up versus like, when am I being a bad daughter versus not? And I'm sure that people swing in different directions, right? Kind of acquiescing to the million calls a day, or then just yelling and then cutting off the parent or family member or whatever. But so we want to hear those hard and fast rules of X amount of times a day, or this is exactly how we behave, that would be good. But it's not about that, right? It's about like, paying attention to those signals inside and saying, like, I'm feeling guilty all the time, or I'm feeling guilty and.

  Speaker 0: Then resentful and then back to guilt again. And that's exactly it, right? Like, if we base it on some external standard versus our own values, like, that's not just that's just not a great metric, there is no answer. And it'll vary even within the same person. There are some times when like, talking once a week is totally reasonable. And that is manageable. There are some times where I'm like, I need to go a few months with no contact, because like, you really violated my boundaries, you were not respectful of the things that I needed. And like, I need to heal. And I need some time away from this. And being able to just like, recognize, it's okay to have needs, and it's okay to express needs, the other person probably won't like it. But like, that doesn't mean I never get to have limits and to like, put those in place. It's hard, though, it is hard to do, I would say, in general, one rule is that, like, if you put a limit in place, you have to uphold it. And so like, if I say, if you call me more than three times a day, I'm not going to pick up the phone tomorrow. And then like, even one time I pick up the phone tomorrow, she learns like, Oh, well, she's not, I can't trust her limit. So I'm just going to violate it over and over and over again. And I'm just going to keep calling and one of these times, maybe she'll pick up, you know, so like, being able to clarify in advance what feels reasonable, and what you know, you can stick to, and like, start there. And like, have that in place before you try, like, I would never say like, if you threaten suicide one more time, I'm never talking to you again. Because like, that's not true. At some point, I will probably talk to her again. And so it's like, it just loses credibility and becomes meaningless. If you keep being like, I'm not gonna do this, and then you do it, it really has to be like, if you do that, I'm not going to call you back for 24 hours, or I'm going to call the cops and send them to your house, and still not talk to you, like you will not get the thing you want. And that doesn't mean I'm never going to talk to.

  Speaker 2: You again, or I hate you. Yeah, one thing I noticed with patients in these situations is they start looking to me to give them permission to set limits, or be questions of Well, is it normal to do x, y, and z. So I think a lot of this work is like building up the patient, or the person in this situation to say, actually, I can rely on myself to know, or to decide what's normal, and what's healthy. Yeah.

  Speaker 0: Yeah, absolutely. And like, in case you need a doctor's permission, I give all of you permission to listen to your own limits. And to think through, like, what do I need in relationships, and if something is really harmful to you, it is okay, regardless of who that person is to take space and to take distance and to end that relationship if you need to. It's complicated. And there's a lot to juggle with, like expectations and society and how to like manage that decision. And like, that's always okay. That is a choice that we all get to make.

  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I like the tip of setting limits that are reasonable, and actually something you could follow through and really sticking to them. I think that the times was what's hard about that for me when I do that with my mom or other people is people start to that, you know, my mom or someone will start to ramp up, you know, when I when I don't talk to her for the day after she will get really mad and start to, you know, say, Oh, you're really hurting me like the kind of the emotion, the emotions kind of get more intense. So you're even more likely to kind of give up that, that limit and just be like, Okay, fine, I'll talk to her because I'm really scared that she's going to do something. But I think what you're saying is like writing that out, you know, setting those limits. And then for me, I keep in mind that if I don't, if I really let my limits go over and over again, I'll build up resentment. And then by the time I do talk to her, it's going to be I'm going to be short, I'm going to be mean, I'm not going to give her what she wants. So it's actually more compassionate for her if I really like, if I'm really tired, really tapped out to give myself that rest and space and then revisit when I'm feeling a little.

  Speaker 0: Bit better. Absolutely. And like, yes, that is called an extinction burst. It is basically like, this feels a little patronizing as to any animal training examples. But like, my dog will like paw me, and then I'll pet him. And like, over time, it's just like, whenever I'm not petting him, he's gonna paw me. And so I'm like, Alright, this is annoying. I am going to stop that. And so he'll paw me and I'll be like, No, I'm not going to pet you. And he'll be like, what? But when I paw you, you pet me, right? Like when I call you, you pick up when I say I'm about to kill myself, you answer the phone. And so at first, what dog does is like, he'll paw me like 87,000 times being like, hey, maybe you didn't hear me. I'd like pets like I am going to keep pawing you because I want the pets and that's not like him being manipulative. It's just like, normally, when I do this, I get a different response. Why isn't it working? I'm going to keep trying it until you give me the response I want. If like, over time, I never pet him in response to that, eventually, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter how many times I paw, I am not going to get the response I want and the behavior dies down. But at first, and I think we perceive it as manipulation, but it just is like, normally, when I do this behavior, I get the response I want, why isn't it happening? And so there is this escalation. So my mom would be like, I'm gonna do it now and like do all these really scary things. The thing to know in those moments is it's not like, oh, just like let the person die. You can call 911 you can like send the cops to their house. Like you don't have to like completely be like, oh, well, in order to set my limits, I have to accept that they're going to kill themselves like send them to the hospital, take the threat seriously. And like, then they will be in a place they won't like it, what they want is your attention not to go to the hospital. But like, you can tolerate that's how I have tolerated that like burst of like, I'm getting worse and everything's a disaster. It's like, okay, I'm not going to respond to that. But like, I can send a wellness check every hour, as long as you are telling me I'm about to kill myself until we get through that night. And like, man, that first week is going to suck team, it's going to be painful. So basically, to get see if I understand it's if when we set the limit, the person might amp up their pleas or whatever the behaviors, which is the extinction burst, right? It's like, as you're trying to get rid of the behavior, it's going to go up more actually. And but to not give in and let go of your limits, but maybe address it in a different way that's also effective. And, and, and addresses the issue without having to, to get rid of the limit that you actually set. Correct, because the problem is, it's like they escalate. And then at some point, you do respond. So if like, we start out, and it's like, I love for you to call me, but it's past your limit, and you don't do it. And then it's like, call me right now, I'm gonna call the cops on you. And then you respond, then like, actually, you're teaching that person to escalate, you're teaching them, if they scream and shout and have a tantrum, then you're going to give them what they want. And like, we do not want to do that. And so for me, it would often be like, call the cops, because the behavior was so scary. It could also be like, hey, I'm going to call your friend. And like, you can talk to her or like something else other than like, call 911. But having something in place where you are still not responding. And in an ideal world, this almost never happens for me or my patients. But you would talk about all of this beforehand with the person and be like, I love you so much. And like, right now, I am trying and trying and trying and I'm getting exhausted. And like, I want to be able to show up for you. I want a good relationship with you. In order to do that, I need like less frequency. I need us to talk once a week. And I promise I will like give you all of my attention and I will always show up. But like outside of that, I can't talk, that's going to be really hard for you. So like, can we think through how you can remind yourself in moments when I'm not answering the phone, but it's not because I don't love you. It's because I'm actually trying to work on the relationship and preserve it. Like in those moments, who else can you call like in an ideal world, you could talk about this before it's happening versus just like, waiting until the extinction burst happens. Sometimes that's not possible. Or sometimes it's like, yeah, totally, I agree. And then they forget about it. But it is nice to the extent that you can actually explain this is what I'm doing. This is for the sake of the relationship. Like, what would work for you? Are there ways that I can remind you like, hey, you've called me 60 times, I'm not going to respond anymore.

  Speaker 2: That don't feel like garbage. Okay, so another type of relationship I wanted to ask you about, I know this is something you've also experienced our parents who don't respect the boundaries of the kind of the parent child relationship. So they might divulge too much, maybe they'll tell you about their romantic challenges with your father, or their sex life, or you know, just something you don't feel comfortable hearing or listening to. What what is that dynamic like? And then how do you set boundaries there?

  Speaker 0: Oh, team, it's not fun. I am all of the things that I wish I could unhear I never can could write a book about that. I think the principles are really similar, right? So it's noticing, noticing signals that your limits are violated. And so like, when you hear that information, at least for me, I have this visceral, like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, like, this is not right. And so being able to recognize that in yourself, whether that's like, somebody is calling too much, or somebody is sharing too much, or like, this is just not an appropriate thing. First is like, actually mindfulness and awareness of like, I am having a reaction to this. And then the tendency for folks with like, chronic invalidation, or parents who have challenges with boundaries is like, the kid then questions themselves. They're like, what's wrong with me that I don't like this, like, they're trying to be open and fun. And like, this should be okay. But that's actually a signal, like what we were feeling that like, oh, something is not right. That is like a valid emotional signal that's trying to tell you like, hey, you have a limit and somebody is crossing it. And so being able to say like, okay, what was the specific thing that just happened? That elicited that reaction to me, which is really hard to do in the moment. So I would probably like take some space and time to reflect and be like, okay, sharing details about your sex life. That is a thing that I am not okay with. And then being able to like, go back to your dear man and to think through like, how do I assert that limit, not in the moment, but in a separate like quiet, calm moment and just say like, hey, I really appreciate that you feel close enough to share those things with me. And actually like, I feel bad when you share those things like that feels uncomfortable to me that doesn't feel appropriate. I'd really appreciate if you didn't do that. And like, I would be really grateful, that would be so great. So like returning to those things that you guys have talked about around limit setting and using some of those skills. In general, I think like principles of reinforcement are also relevant to all of these conversations where there if there is like consistent behavior that is happening in a relationship that is undesired, but it keeps happening. I would get curious around like, is something in the way you respond, actually pleasing? Like when my mom shares stuff about her sex life, do I like, laugh and ask questions, even though I'm wildly uncomfortable, like if there's something that's like, making her think like, Oh, this is interesting. This is fun. We're connecting. And if so, being able to like, mindfully change the way that I respond. So instead of being like, ha ha ha, tell me more about that thing. I definitely, definitely don't want to know about just like going silent, like actually withdrawing some of the warmth and affection that is like the thing that they really crave. And then when she talks about something more appropriate, maybe I like lay on and ask a lot more questions. But in that moment, instead of doing the people pleasing, like, oh, that's so funny being just like, huh? Okay, what should we do next? And like being more matter of fact, eventually, over time, people tend to like, want to steer towards the topics and things that get that like warmth and affection that they're so desperately seeking. So you can actually use that to your advantage by just like, being aware of the way you respond to the things that are unpleasant. And that's kind of a silly example. There are some times when like, if somebody is like, you're a horrible human being, and you're a piece of trash, I probably wouldn't just be like, yeah, like, how was your Saturday? I would probably be like, oh, wow, that really hurt. You can't say that. But in like the sillier examples, I would just try to be mindful of like, am I doing something that makes it more likely that she is going to.

  Speaker 1: Say this again in the future? I mean, yeah, I mean, you bring up also another kind of dynamic to that could come up, which is, and we're talking about like the really nice, the overly nice parents once we're disclosing too much or calling too much or want more love. But there are those other kind of parents who say mean things, right? They say really devaluing things are really critical things that that, you know, makes you feel really small, or makes you feel like you're not enough. And it's hard to kind of parse part of their right or not, right? Because we can't grow up with, you know, if you have those kind of parents who grew up with kind of a lower self esteem or questioning yourself a lot, but what, what kind of is a different kind of limit setting with with those kind of parents who say you're garbage, say you're, you know, not good.

  Speaker 0: Enough? Yeah, I think like, in those cases, those are the times when I would really think through, like, what are the benefits of maintaining that relationship, and giving yourself permission to even just like, think about that. Because I think the thing that I tend to hear is like, if the person who is supposed to love me more than anything thinks I'm garbage, then obviously, I must be and nobody else could possibly think anything different. When in fact, like, those are people who tend to have really rich friendships and romantic relationships where like, there is a lot of love. It just is this one person who is saying really cruel things who like, societally, we are assuming is supposed to love you more than anyone else. There are times when like, a lot of people have children who like probably didn't want children or probably like should not have had children and to base your self worth on the opinion of one person who is being really cruel to you. Like, obviously, that's going to be problematic. It can be helpful to look at their other relationships and just notice like, it is pretty rare that you're the only person that that person is mean and critical to, like, often those people don't have a lot of rich friendships, or if they do, they have trouble maintaining them. And they're constantly fighting with people, and it's never their fault. And it's like, okay, let's look at the big picture. Like, maybe that person struggles with emotions. And it's not in fact, just like I'm a garbage human being. But I think if you're in a dynamic where someone is actively cruel to you, frequently, that's one of the times where I'd be like, Okay, why are we in this? And it's possible there are reasons where it's like, no, no, it doesn't matter how mean they are. I believe that like, with family, you stick around, and you're like, still in it. And like, okay, that is a personal value. And if you actually, like believe that and it's not just like absorb from what we should be doing, then you find a way to make it as like, low harm to you as possible. And that might be you meet in public, and you don't talk in the phone, it might be that you call during a set time, and you have like, a lot of distress tolerance afterward, and someone who really loves you to help you calm down and remember that you're not garbage, like, there are ways of reducing harm, but it is okay to think through like, do I even want any relationship with that person? If every time I talk to them, they are mean to me, like any other relationship, any friendship, any romantic relationship, if you had that dynamic, the general advice would be like, leave, like, stop doing that. And for some reason, when it's a parent dynamic, we don't get that feedback as much like people are like, Oh, but they're your mom, and they love you. And like, maybe that doesn't mean that they are a life enhancing relationship in that context.

  Speaker 1: It's interesting to thinking about all the cultural pieces, you know, that are relevant here. Like, as we were talking about this, I was thinking about how you and I are both from Asian parents. And that's kind of the norm of them saying, Oh, you got an A minus, that's not good enough, or you need to do better. And for that, for them, that's a cultural value of like, this is how I love my kids is to tell them that they're good enough. So they work harder to have a successful life. And then especially for us who grow up in a different culture, like America, or, you know, the values are different. It's it's like, wait a minute, that's just what how they are. And that's how they love me. At the same time, it makes me feel terrible. And I don't want to feel that way. So I mean, at least I know I had a hard time setting limits when you're not sure if it's right or wrong or toxic or healthy or whatever.

  Speaker 0: Totally. And I'm so glad you brought up culture, because I think like, Western culture is like, okay, the individual and like our happiness and our well being, like, how do we get towards that? And a lot of treatments for mental health are like, what do I want? And what is a fulfilling life for me? And what kind of friend do I want to be? That's really different. And a lot of Eastern cultures were like, it is more like, what do we want? And what do we need? And so this can look really different. If you are like, in a, in a culture or society where like, the we tends to be more important than the I, it is still okay to think through these things. And to think through like, what is it should and what is a want? And like, how can I shift this dynamic to be more healthy? I think that it just is like, pretty complicated when you add in like an extra layer of pressure where like, you must stay together and you are going to be in this community forever. It makes it so hard to figure out. Like, am I being selfish and those types of dynamics? And I think like, even if something is normal and expected, we still can ask for change. Even if the dynamic is like, my parent shows love by saying an A minus isn't good enough, we can still say like, hey, I get it. I want the A as well. And if like, when I get an A, you say like, I'm really proud of you. You did a good job. I will actually feel more motivated to get that than if you ignore all the times I get an A and the one time I got an A minus, you're like, what happened? You know, like, we can still coach people and teach them new things. They might not be willing, but we can at least ask for the things that we want and need to feel more healthy within our relationships and sometimes insist on them.

  Speaker 2: No, I feel, I mean, it's, it's interesting, because I feel like there are so many different types of families and relationships and dynamics we can talk about. But it also seems like the principles are pretty similar across. And I really appreciate you coming on and giving just really solid advice to those of our listeners who are struggling with this.

  Speaker 0: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

  Speaker 2: Anytime. Thanks for coming on again. Our last, our last segment is just asking for resources. So Caitlin, do you have any resources you would recommend?

  Speaker 0: Absolutely. Okay, so I would recommend the book High Conflict Couple to anyone. It is not just for romantic relationships. It is for families, it is for friendships, it is just like, such useful information for all humans to have. If you are interested in more on like behaviorism and reinforcement, don't shoot the dog as a really good resource. It is a very simple read, you can read it and like a night or a weekend. But the principles are really, really solid on like how we impact the behavior in our environment. If you have a loved one who struggles with borderline personality disorder, loving someone with borderline personality disorder is a great resource. There are a lot of books that are less based in science, but that is a really great one to read and just can be very validating for folks. My coworker, Dr. Melissa Miller and I also are doing a series of workshops for loved ones and family members who want psychoeducation. They are free. They happen monthly. If you would like more information, you can go to cbtdurham.com.

  Speaker 1: Thanks, Caitlin. Those are all great. And we'll put all of those on the website.

  Speaker 2: All right, guys. Well, this has been awesome. And Caitlin, thank you again. And all of our listeners, we love you, especially when you give us five-star reviews on iTunes. And we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general non-commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.