Ep. 13 - Bachelorette’s Zac Clark on Addiction Recovery
In this special episode, Zac Clark from ABC's "Bachelorette" joins us for an in-depth interview on recovery from alcohol and drug abuse. He shares stories and lessons from his journey through addiction to recovery, especially the important role his loved ones played in this process. He also shares his passion for helping others struggling with addiction through his Release Recovery program and fund raising efforts to support this community.
https://releaserecovery.com/
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DescriptSpeaker 1: Hi everyone, welcome back to A Little Help For Our Friends. Today, Kimmy and I have a guest we are really, really excited about, and I bet you will be excited about too, because probably a lot of us just watched him win Tayshia's heart on The Bachelorette. So, we will be welcoming Zach Clark. We will be talking about addiction recovery. I think a lot of people who watch the show know that Zach is a recovered addict himself and he spoke a lot about addiction and recovery on the show, but he actually does work in addiction recovery as well. He and his best friend started Release Recovery, which is basically an aftercare program for people who are trying to gain and retain sobriety. So they have houses where they have a house for men, a house for women, where people go. They live with other people who are trying to maintain sobriety and they live a structured life with a loving and caring supportive community. Zach provides consultation and it's just a really, really wonderful resource and he will be speaking about what he's learned about addiction recovery, his own journey with addiction and sobriety, and speaking a little bit about the role that friends and family play, because it's really crucial for everyone, but I mean, he really, I think, gives a lot of credit to his loved ones for helping him get through this. So we're really just honored to have him on our show. Pretty much the entire episode is going to be us talking to Zach. So I will turn it over to our interview now. Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to A Little Help For Our Friends and we are super, super excited to have our special guest today. So today is going to be a bit of a unique episode. We're going to have this guest throughout the whole episode. That's how stoked we are to have him here. So today we're going to be talking about addiction recovery with Zach Clark. Welcome, Zach. Thanks so much.
Speaker 0: What's up, guys? I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So we watched you on The Bachelorette. We are so happy, by the way, to see the ending. It was maybe the most beautiful proposal I've seen on The Bachelor.
Speaker 2: Seriously, I never tear up in that show and I was like,
Speaker 1: You know? It was a little one.
Speaker 2: It was nice. It was just a little.
Speaker 0: I appreciate that. It was from the heart, so all good.
Speaker 1: Well, you talked a lot about your own road with addiction and recovery on the show and so just kind of wanted to hear your story. Your story here, anything you think was important to share, how it kind of started, how it snowballed, in your own words.
Speaker 0: Yeah, no, of course. I think people got to see me and know me through the television set, but one of the things I was most proud of is I was able to really go there and be authentic and be myself. And that's just the direct result of my recovery, right? And those who know me know that it's not something that I'm ashamed to talk about because I'm very aware of the fact that everything in my life kind of stems off of my journey and what I had to do to get to where I am today. So I'll say I work in the field, right? And I've really dedicated my life to helping others. It's something that I'm really passionate about and I didn't know it until I got sober that I really wanted to help other people. I always loved human beings and that connection. And even when I was partying, right? I loved to be the guy kind of making sure everyone had the drink they needed or whatever else it was. So for me, I found great joy in helping others, but it took a lot to get to where I am today. So I don't know if you guys want the nitty gritty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give us everything. I was going to ask, when did you start to notice that this was a problem? How did it all start? I mean, give us everything. Well, look, I mean, I'll say a couple of things. One is there's a lot of energy, right? And there's a lot of energy.
Speaker 0: Even of weight around the idea that people who are in recovery are kind of handicapped, are not able to do the things that other people are able to do. And I'm here to tell you that it's really the exact opposite. It's almost like my superpower. And I can tell you that this thing, based on my life experience and kind of what I've been through to this point, what I know is that it doesn't discriminate. And I can tell you that I grew up in a really loving home in South Jersey with two badass parents that just really showed me all the life lessons that you need to be shown at a young age, the value of a dollar, how to treat a woman, how to treat your teachers, how to treat other humans with respect. I had an older brother that would beat down on me and we'd have our little wrestling matches in the most loving and big brother way, I don't say that, and two sisters who were just angels. And so I didn't want for anything growing up. And what I do know is I had a pretty, what I think a lot of people would define as a normal upbringing. I grew up in this home with the white picket fence and the Clarks to most people were like a normal family. And my high school experiences, I remember my first drink. I think everyone kind of remembers that first drink, like that first time you cross over to the dark side. For me, it was, we went to this Christmas party every year and the year before my first drink, these older guys, he kind of take me behind the garage and throw me a beer. And I ran back to the party crying. I was like, mom and dad, you'll never believe it, but this is, and then I had a full year to kind of think about that moment coming again. And it did. And the next year at that same party, I was kind of like ready. And I had a couple of Miller highlights. I'll never forget it. And for me, like a lot of people talk about that first drink and like that sense of ease and comfort that comes with it. And I felt like a super awkward kid and then I didn't, but for me, it was kind of a different experience. And then I had that first drink and what happened was I just started to lie like immediately. Like I went back to the party and I saw my parents and they asked where I was and what I was doing and I lied. And what I found out is that, you know, I woke up the next morning and I still open presents and Christmas still happened. And so the lesson that taught me was I can lie and I can get away with it. And for the next 15 years from like, whatever it was, 12, 13 years old until I was 27, when I eventually got sober, you know, just as much as like the alcohol use and eventually the drug use was a part of my story. So it was a line. And I think that's something that people who have experienced substance abuse, whether firsthand or have a loved one that's gone through it, like the line is the most challenging part because we love these people so much. And people loved me so much that they wanted to believe everything.
Speaker 2: That I said. And why do you think you lied like in that moment? I mean, that's such a good point about that, that sense of that, that kind of the hiding behaviors and the, and the lying and stuff like that. But why, why do you think in that moment with that,
Speaker 0: Your first drink, what did you get out of the line? You don't want to get caught, right? I mean, come on, like, you don't want mom and dad to know you were, you were pounding beers behind the garage, like, you know, so I think any child or adolescent in that, in that scenario is going to lie, or at least most of them. And I don't know, then I had like this little secret that was mine that I could take into the hallways. And then, you know, when school started back up after holiday break, like, dude, you'll never believe it. Like I was, I drank beer and like, and so then I felt like I was like ahead of the curve. And it was my social responsibility to kind of, you know, put my friends in a headlock and say, like, let's go, let's go party together. And, and that's what I did in high school, right? It's like, I always say, I had a very dazed, confused high school experience. It was like, we, we partied in the woods and belted out classic rock songs and made bonfires and shotgun beers and ran from cops. And we had a, you know, we had a shitload of fun, but I always knew even from a young age that there was like this relationship or this, this fantasizing that took place with my alcohol consumption that was not.
Speaker 1: Going to be good. What was the, what was the fantasy?
Speaker 0: No, I mean, it's just like, look, I played three sports in high school, right? Football, basketball, baseball. And I had a lot of really cool shit going on in my life. And like, I was kissing girls for the first time, but I can tell you that the most important thing in my life was making sure that on a, you know, on a Friday or Saturday night that I had my 12 pack of natural light so I can go into the woods and get drunk, you know? And like, once I got that 12 pack, like nothing else mattered in the world, you know, like nothing else mattered. And that's like, I didn't, I didn't know it at the time, but that was like an early sign for me as I look back on my story of, of alcoholism and, and drug addiction and just that obsession. And like the panic that would ensue if I, if I didn't get, you know, what I wanted for the, for the weekend kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too, how you mentioned, I mean, we talk a lot about in this podcast about how, you know, mental health and it's just so integrated with all of our relationships, right? It's like such a big part of it. And for you starting to drink had this component of like, Hey, we're going to, you know, this is, this is the way I could bond with people. Like I, I have a secret, I'm the, I'm the one who could get people to party. So it had this like, you know, developing your relationships based on that too, in a little way.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I mean, I loved high school, you know, my, my friends, like we have this thing in the fresh chain and there's like 15 of us, the guys in my grade and the guys below me, like we're still thick as thieves, best friends, the tech chain goes all day, every day. And like, you know, that was our, that was our like formative years where we really pardon what I can tell you about that, which is like an example I use a lot of times, even in my profession, if you would align, you know, there's 15 guys up my senior year in high school, I think, you know, as society kind of defines it today, you could have picked any of us out of a line and said, you should, you should go get some help, right? The way that we were drinking, the way that we were smoking pot, the way that we were carrying on, it wasn't normal for, for, for an adolescent fast forward 20 years. And you look at that line of people, you know, it's myself and maybe one or two other guys that ultimately and eventually needed to get some help. And then you got the lawyer, you know, the guys working, finding like families and the whole thing, the people that kind of like grew out of it. And that's why I struggle so much in my work today when I'm, when I, when I see like a 17 or 18 year old kid or a case come across my desk, because it's, I think it's, it's tough for the parent because it's, it's, you know, do you trust your gut and kind of like push them forward to get some help? Or do you kind of let them grow out of this? And I don't know the answer. You know, I just, I don't know for me, I had to carry on for really another 10 years until I finally, you know, hit a bottom. And, and there were friends of mine that, you know, went to college and party and after college, I met a girl got married and like, yeah, they could take it or leave it. And it's just so crazy. Just the, the, the, the minute difference between someone who eventually, you know, needs to get help. And then someone who just might grow out of it or be in a phase. And that's what I think is so challenging about the work, work we do, because there's no playbook, you know, someone has cancer, you know what to do. Someone has addiction or alcoholism, you know, each case.
Speaker 1: Is different. And that's what really sucks. We, uh, so KP and I both have family members with alcoholism. Um, mine actually just returned from rehab for the second time. So she's very much still in the, yes, I know.
Speaker 0: We got it. We can talk about all the dark doomy shit. We got to celebrate the wind. So when I hear someone just got out of treatment, like, you know what?
Speaker 1: The fucking loved it. She loved rehab at the best. Really? Well, I was joking. Like with this whole show, everyone's like, dude, how did you go away? And like, you were in this bubble. I was like, well, I fucking went to rehab for four and a half months. Like I can do this shit in my sleep. It's really the way she talked about it. I was like, that really reminds me of being on the bachelor sort of that summer camp feeling in a way, but obviously with a different aim. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting. Cause thinking about my own kids and, and you know, I still drink, I have a relationship with alcohol that I feel safe in, but my, I would say that my family was pretty happy. Like I drank in the home starting from like 13, 14. Um, and I don't, and in some ways I think that went really well for me because by the time I was in situations that would cause problems for me, I was used to it. I built that up, but, but obviously that didn't work with another family member. And do you have a sense of like what kind of family dynamics are most helpful for this or what, what parents can teach? If you're, if you're thinking about, you know, adolescents that come across as desks, like,
Speaker 0: Yeah, it's tough. And I appreciate, I mean, like the family, I think oftentimes are the heroes in all this because it's so frustrating, you know? And, uh, at any given time, you know, we'll have a couple of cases going and we do interventions and we consult with families all the time. And I, we always tell them like, you know, at the end of the day, truly, and it sounds gimmicky and cliche, but love is gonna carry the most weight here. Like just continuing to reinforce the message of like, we love you. We are here for you. Um, you know, and obviously like there's motivational interviewing and some other things that we can like get in, like that, that, that work that we know to work. But me personally, I'm not a, you know, break down the door in the middle of the night and throw someone in handcuffs and ship them off the treatment guy. You know, I've just heard too many stories of the 14, 15 year old kid that's had that happen to them. And the trauma associated with that ends up being far greater than, you know, the trauma of, you know, whatever, just going to treatment on their terms or continuing to kind of act out. So, you know, for family members, it's, it's crazy. And like, you know, what we're seeing today is there's a lot of our clients, you know, or people that we're dealing with, there's adoption, there's, there's divorced parents, there's two sets of parents. Sometimes there's three sets, you know, like it's just, there's so much in this, in this day and age that just is working against us. It's.
Speaker 2: Tough. So. And it sounds like, I mean, even just from the show, you mentioned, you kept mentioning how loving your family was. I was curious, you're talking about the lying, which I'm sure it's really hard for, you know, the people that you grew up with, people you're close to. Can you talk a little bit more about what, what relationships you had, like, how did it affect your relationships with your loving family, you know, eventually your partners or friends or anything.
Speaker 0: Like that? Yeah. So what happened for me is I went to college, right. And like, I, I, I, my sophomore year, I went to this, I went to York College, which is a little college out in Pennsylvania where I went to study sport management, which, you know, I do nothing with today and play baseball. Right. And so that was, that was the goal. And I met a woman in my, my sophomore year and, you know, we, it was like in my head, the way I grew up is that my goal is to go to college and graduate college in four years and then move back home and start this suburban life that, you know, my parents had given me and that I was prepared to give to my family. And I met this girl and for me in my head, it was like, okay, this is game over. You know, we're going to like date throughout the rest of college and I'm going to, you know, do what I do. And even looking back at that relationship and I eventually married her and she really ended up saving my life. I can say that today. She's a beautiful human who has like a very healthy relationship with alcohol and as a school teacher, and I have no, not one bad word to say about her. But like, she was like another piece of this puzzle that as like an alcoholic, I now know that I was just trying to build up this front and roll out to the world so that no one could question the way I drank. And I did a really good job at it. You know, when I graduated college for four years and I played baseball and, you know, people didn't really shine a flash on the fact that I was blacking out four nights a week. It just wasn't because Zach was just Zach and he's the life of the party. And in my soul, I knew, you know, what I was doing wasn't healthy, but the people that really loved me, didn't want to focus on that. They wanted to celebrate my successes, which is like, how can you, how can you blame your family? And then, you know, my shift in my story personally happened when I guess it was like a year after college. I was working my first kind of job and me and my college buddies had rented a house down the shore. And we were, we were going to go party for the weekend, Memorial Day weekend, the car was packed, but I felt like shit. I was like seeing kaleidoscopes anytime I closed my eyes. And I went to this like side of the road, janky x-ray place. Cause like, I don't know why maybe God was just like tapping me on the shoulder. And it turns out I have a brain tumor. So I'm at ironically University of Penn hospital, the next morning, like getting this thing cut out of my head and you know, I'm in complete good health today. But what I can tell you about that experience as it relates to Kibby's question and family support is like, I was in a hospital for like 20 something days. I was never alone. Like literally there wasn't a minute that passed by where I didn't have a family member, a friend, a wife, or at the time a girlfriend, you know, by my side. And so what I always tell people is like, if love could get me sober, I would have got sober in that moment. Right. I just would have, but reality was my alcoholism was already live. I couldn't wait to get out of that hospital bed so I could start drinking again. And to boot, like this nurse was pumping pain meds into my arm and it felt really good. So I was like, all right, I'm going to get out of here and I'm going to, you know, drink like I want to drink and no one can say shit about it because now I'm like some kind of like hero, you know, like that's in recovery from this, this, this brain tumor. And it was just like a perfect storm for me. And I just kept pushing my life forward. It was, it was kind of nutty to the point where like, I proposed to this girl and like, we had the big wedding and you know, like as the story goes, we kind of like along the way we hold people hostage and we grab people. And I know that I'm a lovable guy. I can say that. And so, you know, people were able to turn their head away to some of my bullshit,
Speaker 1: Unfortunately. So. Well, one question I had is what do you think about the saying that we always hear about alcoholism or addiction in general, which is you have to wait until they hit rock bottom. Cause I, I mean, I will not say it's as a loved one of someone with alcoholism, it's a terrifying statement because rock bottom, I, you know, I keep thinking she's hit it and it turns out there's a floor below. But on the other hand, there's also a frustration of like, it doesn't seem, it does seem like in some ways those crises have helped her then seek help. And so I'm just.
Speaker 0: Wondering what your thoughts are. I don't know. I mean, look, it's a great question. I can tell you that I've seen 16 year old kids who were quote unquote, just smoking pot, you know, addictively. And I say just with, with, with quotations around that, because I do believe that marijuana is an issue and going to be an issue in our society. Cause it's just getting stronger and kids are smoking it at a much younger age and they're frying their brains, but I digress. You know, I've seen like 16 year old kids who were quote unquote, just smoking pot, like get sober and never questioned that they need to be sober and go on and, you know, get 10 years and 20 years like sobriety at 36 years old. I've, you know, having 20 years of sobriety because they were just convinced at a young age that they had this thing. Right. And then I've seen, and I know of guys who girls who have been to treatment 30, 35 times, it's still not enough, you know? And the truth is I don't have the answer. I don't have the answer. And I don't know what rock bottom is. I know for me, like, you know, I was sticking things into my body that I shouldn't have been sticking into my body, you know, as a kid who grew up not wanting for anything. And like, I was sleeping on the street without needing to sleep on the street. I had plenty of places to go, but I was just running from everything in my life. You know, I went to rehab the first time. And after rehab, I got drunk and my wife left me and everything else. And guess what? Like, that wasn't enough. I needed to keep going for another eight or nine months and like, really, you know, come to grips with the fact that I couldn't drink alcohol or do drugs safely.
Speaker 2: And some people can, and like, that's okay. Yeah, it's scary for the loved one, like your family member or your wife or anything. You know, from my own experience, my mom was an alcoholic, recovered for several years now. So it's amazing, but Amazing. Props to her. Go mom. Yeah, she worked really hard. She hit rock bottom where the doctors were like, your liver's toast, or it could get better. So your choice. And she did. But I remember the feeling of being, you know, having her as a loved one where it's, it's, you feel like so out of control, right? You see a problem, you talk to them about it or fight about it. And maybe they go to treatment, maybe they don't, maybe they know what the problem is. You know, like, it's really hard for family members and friends to like, kind of stay on the sidelines. So for you, like, when did people start to find out? Or when did they start? Did they say anything to you? Or did anyone ask you to get help or anything that they did to like, push you towards like,
Speaker 0: I got to get treatment or? Yeah, the first time I, I always tell the story like it was a, I remember this day so vividly. I was, I was at my dad's office. In addition to everything else I was doing, I was down some money to a bookie because I was a little bit gambling and I had talked him into paying off my bookie. And so in my mind, like, again, I had, I had like figured it all out. And I went home to the house where I was, the house I owned, you know, with the cars in the driveway and the little dog and the wife and the whole thing that this world, this life that I'd set up despite, you know, my alcoholism, and my mom and, and wife were out getting drinks, and one of my friends went up to him and basically outed me and said, like, Zach's in a bad way. We know he's in a bad way. You got to do something about this. And they came home that night. My mom walked in the door and said, what are you doing here? And I didn't fight it. I actually, hilariously enough, because we have to have a little levity here. I got in the car that night and I'd seen a billboard for treatment and I actually drove myself to rehab. And I think I was probably like their first ever drive up or drive in customer. And I knocked on the door, like, you can't just drive in here. So I was very willing the first time I went and I stayed for 28 days, you know, like the, like, like the movie 28 days, you know, I did everything they told me to do. I ran around that place and like, I did the therapy and I did what I know, like as an athlete, someone who grew up with structure in my life, like I'm going to do all these things and I'm going to get this. But the problem was I was completely full of shit, you know? And so like, the one good thing that came out of my first treatment experience. And like, to answer your question, yeah, people knew, you know, like my friends knew I wasn't the same guy they grew up with. And my wife knew that every time we got in a fight, it was over my drinking, but no one was going to call me on it until my friend kind of spoke up. And I did that first treatment experience. And the one good thing that came out of it was my wife was given a set of tools to know what to do if I drank again. And surely enough, like whatever it was, five, 10 days later, I got drunk and I went out and bought drugs and I had them in the house and she caught me. And thank God for her. She like kept that boundary and she peaced out. She called her dad that night. He drove down. That was the last night I ever slept in that house. And, you know, props to her. Like she, she listened and she saved my life. You know, like she, she decided that she was done and I had to go on for another, however long until I hit my quote unquote rock bottom. And then I was back in treatment like eight months later for four and a half months. And that time I knew like, all right, I know nothing. It got pretty.
Speaker 1: Dark. So it's interesting. You talk a lot about the word that comes to my head is power. When you talk about like, I got away with something again, that, that lying, I woke up in the next day, morning still happened. What was that like? And then how, and then you said that when your life wife left you, that actually saved your life. Are those two things connected or because for once you couldn't get away with something or what's the.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I mean, she was the first person in my life to say the party was over like, like, like the first, and it wasn't in a way that was like malicious or mean, it was actually had a lot of love behind it. She just with tears in her eyes said, I can't do this anymore. And it took me two weeks into treatment. I was still blaming her for everything. Of course, even a year into this thing, I wanted to blame her for shit, but like, eventually what recovery has taught me is really to look at my part in all my relationships. So disregarding whoever is involved, whether it's my mom, my dad, my sister, my brother, my wife, my girlfriend, my best friend, like it doesn't matter what they're doing to me. Like I get to a place where I get to evaluate my behavior in that relationship and look at where I'm being selfish and dishonest and, you know, really put that on the table and understand that I can't control the people around me. So she did me a huge solid, you know, and like, I thank her for that, honestly.
Speaker 2: That's incredible. I mean, it must have been so hard, especially, of course, I bet she loved you a lot and scary to kind of leave someone who's in a bad way, right? To be like, you know, I could stay here and help and, you know, make sure he's safe or I could leave and you don't know what's going to happen when you do that. So props to her.
Speaker 0: Yeah, props to her for sure. And, you know, like, that's all the gnarly gross stuff. And my story, you know, in its entirety is, you know, you could write a book about it. I mean, I got my gallbladder cut out to, you know, seeking drugs. I, you know, did some really down and dirty stuff to cop drugs. You know, I got very comfortable kind of like with the street life. And, you know, that was a whole nother world that I learned about that I didn't know existed. And now you don't need a drug dealer. You just kind of drive into these neighborhoods and meet up with some people and, you know, carry on how you want. So it's like it fed my isolation. But, you know, the beautiful part is like, as a result of all this gross, gnarly experience that I had, I went to rehab and then I show up in New York City, like a place where I had been like one time before to see Simon and Garfunkel. It's like I show up here and I'm like, wait, hold up. Like I'm starting my life over again in the city, you know, and that was, that was almost 10 years ago. And like now New York is my, I caught a lot of shit on this show from people in Philly. Like, why did you do New York City as your hometown? And you don't even like Philadelphia. I'm like, slow down. Like, I love Philly. I still have my Eagle season tickets, but New York City is my safe place. And I don't know if a lot of people can say that, but, you know, what I've experienced over the past nine plus years is nothing short of, of miraculous and I wouldn't trade my life for anything. So all that experience that I talk about, it just leads to this beautiful existence.
Speaker 1: That I get to have today. Yeah. One of the, one of the things I was most excited to talk to you about was actually sobriety. I mean, there's the addiction part, the dark, the dark days, but then there's, I've, I've heard a lot of recovered alcoholics talk about how much they actually love sobriety, um, how much more intensely they feel in certain ways. And, um, so I just wondered what, what kind of the first, the first steps of sobriety were like for.
Speaker 0: You and, and what that journey has been like. Yeah, it's crazy. Cause I just, uh, I just heard a guy talk and he said something that reminded me of my early sobriety, which was, uh, I had this guy who was kind of mentoring me and he sat me down really early on when I just got to New York. And he kind of said like, find three guys that you can trust, you know, find three guys that you can not girls, guys that you can have a relationship with. And he's like, if you can do that, like you got a shot here, you know? And it was, it was so simple, but it was some of the best advice I'd ever been given because I did it, you know, like I really forced myself to get out there and like get into this community and meet guys that were like me, you know? And my, my perception of what recovery was for the first 26 years of my life was a bunch of guys, you know, sitting in a basement talking about, you know, how life is horrible and yeah, they're sober, but nothing else good has taken place. And my experience in recovery is that it's the exact opposite, you know, is like my life and my existence is next level. I mean, the shit I've been able to do in terms of like concerts and travel and golf and friends and just like showing up, you know, it's, sobriety is the best. And that's why I'm so convinced like every morning when I wake up that I kind of have this competitive advantage against the rest of the world, because like, I don't, I don't think about all that other shit, you know?
Speaker 1: You also said something on the show that I thought was really wonderful when you were talking to Taysha, and I apologize if I butcher this, but she, I think, was talking about, you know, the nature of relationships and how they change and how she might be different in 10 years and would you still love her? And you said it was your anniversary of sobriety. And I think what you said was that sobriety means that you don't run. Or so I was just wondering if you could sort of speak about.
Speaker 0: That a bit more. Yeah, I mean, I will naturally, right? Like, when I am active, all I'm doing is running. You know, I'm running from feeling I'm drinking, drugging to not want to show up for life. So when I get sober, I'm able to like look people in the eye, admit when I'm wrong, show up when, you know, for the great party, but also show up for like the funeral, you know? And like life is, to me, what I didn't know, like, you know, there's like this saying, I wish I knew then what I do now, like, I'm turning 37 this week. And, you know, at 27, I had no idea, you know, about, about life and relationships and what it really means to kind of show up and be honest and do what I say I'm going to do, you know, and part of it, it's, it's annoying to people. Like if I say I'm going to be somewhere three o'clock, like I was struggling to get on this thing. I was like, I don't want to be 30 seconds late. Cause like, for me, that's a reflection on like, I care so deeply about recovery. I don't want shit. I don't want people to say anything, be able to say anything negatively about the way that I live my life because now even more so than ever, like I am some type of like reflection of this, of this life. I don't know if that makes.
Speaker 1: Sense, but. Is it stressful? No.
Speaker 0: Okay. You know, it's stressful. And like people ask people who ask me that all the time. And like, you know, it's funny when you're like in early recovery, I'll be talking to guys and I'm like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. This is stressful. And, you know, there's certain things that we're asked to do. And I'm like, you know, it's stressful, man. Stressful is like having your mom cry herself to sleep every night. How you're doing, you know, or like stressful is waking up, you know, dope sick and having zero dollars in your pocket and not knowing how the hell you're going to get high. That's stressful having to like tell the truth and show up. I feel more, but it's not stressful.
Speaker 2: I mean, what a, what a journey. I mean, even the way you described starting out with the drinking and have a lot of lying and, and not being accountable and not seeing your own contribution to relationships and problems, and then having the complete opposite, like showing up committing, just being here for the good and the bad. I mean, that's just, that's, I mean, for your friends and family, they must have seen like such a shift. That's huge.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, the other thing this thing teaches me is that like, I'm not that important. Like at the end of the day, I'm just not that important. You know, like that's just, you know, it's that simple, you know, no matter what I want to think, I'm not that important and I'm going to, and I'm not perfect. I'm going to make a ton of mistakes along the way and that's okay. You know, you learn to have a little bit of compassion for yourself and you know, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know. Yeah. Some humility. Yeah, for sure. Can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, you've, you've gone even the extra mile and made, made so much meaning out of this by, you know, working with recovery with other people too. So tell us a little bit about your release recovery program and what you do there, what it is. Yeah, we love it. We're a family and we have a shitload of fun. You know, it's like, I swear when COVID lifts, I invite you guys up, come, come, come hang with us. We.
Speaker 0: Will show you what recovery looks like because we, you know, right before I walked in here, I was out here talking to a bunch of the guys. We're going to, uh, they challenged the staff five on five to some hoops tomorrow. So we're going to, we're going to lace it up and go play some ball with some of the guys. But no, we, um, so my, you know, one of my best friend in life and my co-founder here is a guy by the name of Justin Gerland. He's a classically trained social worker. Um, you know, shares a lot of similar experiences, me and we, you know, how people meet, right? Like when I showed up in the city 10 years ago or just under 10 years ago, he was, he was there and our, our paths crossed and, um, we founded release recovery a little under four years ago. Um, you know, we acquired a property up in Westchester County, which is now 17 beds for men. So, uh, we really specialize in, and then I should say we have a program in the city for men and a program in the city of New York that is for women. So we have 40 beds total. Um, and that piece of our business, if you will, and I hate even calling it a business, but I guess it is at the end of the day, um, really focuses on helping individuals who go to treatment reintegrate back into the world. So minimum say is three months and they, they, they come and they, you know, they learn to live again and we get them back out into the world. We help them get jobs. We help them finish school, you know, we're 18 and up. So, you know, we've had, uh, an 82 year old guy with us and we've had, you know, a bunch of 18 year old knuckleheads and everything in between. Right. And so, um, that's a big part of what we do. And we really, the foundation of our program, which is a lot of what we've talked about on this podcast, it's just really creating a recreating a healthy home environment. So, you know, meals are a big deal to us. Um, and like, you know, family dinner time and, and, and just having those positive conversations. And then in addition to that work, uh, Justin and I do a lot of consultation. So, you know, we'll get families that call us that, you know, have a loved one that's struggling and you know, we're trying to help them get into treatment and then, you know, coming out of treatment, maybe they're not a fit for our sober living or transitional living services. We'll set up some case management where we'll drug test them and monitor them. And really we take the approach that, you know, each case is, is, is different. And like, as I mentioned earlier on in the podcast, right, like things like cancer and heart disease and, um, diabetes, like there's a pretty straightforward approach and treating those illnesses and with addiction, um, man, every case is different. It really is. And, uh, and so there's that. And then, you know, uh, the thing that I'm really putting a lot of time and energy now, uh, into is right before COVID hit, we started our own 501, um, release recovery foundation. And we are super pumped about that and we're going to be raising money, um, for people who can't afford it to go get some help because, you know, we've just, and I have fallen into this release and what we do, we've fallen into this world. We work a lot with individuals who are private pay, right? So people that can afford our services and that's just kind of our niche and what we've fallen into. And, you know, we kind of woke up one day and looked each other in the eye and said like, we can do more. And so, um, we got a lot of really cool shit going on with that. We're going to raise money through some of the marathons and we got a t-shirt that's about to drop, which I will send you guys one, or you will buy one. And, uh, you know, that initial round of funding is going to go to helping, uh, women and people of color get treatment because we have just seen time and time again, that those are too Democrat. Like they're underserved in our world. Like for whatever reason, like white dudes get treatment. I don't know why, you know, and they get help and there's more sober loving beds in the world for, for men by like four times than women, you know, and that kind of thing. So, um, we got a lot of really cool stuff on the horizon. And at the end of the day, like, you know, people have asked me like, you have this new platform, you have this. And I'm like, yeah, like if I can help one more person as a result of this thing, like I'm, I'm going to be a happy guy. So what can you, so I will say like my family member is very, very fortunate to have resources. Um, and she went to a fabulous rehab, but I wonder like, well, what if she didn't, you know, what, what kinds of options are there for.
Speaker 1: People who don't have, I mean, $50,000 to go to rehab, you know, like astronomical amounts of money, what can they do? And are there any organizations that you like? I'm hoping that.
Speaker 0: Release recovery foundation ends up, you know, uh, solving a lot of those issues, you know, to the best of our ability. Look, um, it sucks, but it's kind of like anything else in our healthcare system. Like, you know, uh, there's obviously some government funded programs and there's some, maybe you have Medicare, Medicaid, like there, you know, you can typically find a bed somewhere, somehow a lot of it's based on state to state. I mean, we hear at release, especially now with some of the inquiries that we've gotten, you know, we're trying to at least provide resources to everyone that calls so they can get some help, but it sucks. And I think it's just like anything else going on in the world today. Like we all need to do a little bit more, you know, and like bring some awareness to this thing. And hopefully, um, I mean, there's some organizations out there that are doing some really good, good, good stuff on like the government level or lobbying or whatever, getting some like chatter proof is an organization that really, you know, is in, is in Congress and is in there and is trying to help people understand that, you know, everyone who needs treatment deserves to get it. I believe that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And, and thank you so much for telling us more about your services. We'll definitely promote that on a website and otherwise, and especially the fundraising efforts. That's awesome. That's, I mean, also I work as a therapist in New York Presbyterian hospital over on the, well at home, but like on the East side. So we'll, we'll refer people over.
Speaker 0: To you guys. That'd be great. I didn't know that you're so close. You're you're, are you sitting in New York right now? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh, no shit. I love that. Okay, cool. So I'm in the zoom world, but.
Speaker 0: I, yeah, I'm a therapist. So you should come by like when COVID is done, definitely come by. I mean, you know, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That'd be great. That'd be great. I'd love to. And it sounds like you have such a nice approach to it, which is like integrating into the community and having that love for support. You know, that's, I love all that approach. That's amazing.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I mean, our days are structured for sure, you know, and like, we're, we definitely have a bunch of touch points throughout the day where, where our clients are getting together and sharing. And, you know, I think one of the things that's worth mentioning is COVID is anyone who's tried to get over from last March until now, you know, has been deprived of the opportunity to go to like in-person recovery meetings, which is in a lot of ways, the most important thing that we do. It's just like connecting with another human who's going through this thing. And, you know, even us right now doing this, I would love to be in person with you guys, you know, make this so much more.
Speaker 1: Meaningful, but. Yeah. Oh, I was just going to say for my family member, just coming back from rehab that, I mean, that is a struggle that I think she's having is in rehab. She had this community, all these people that she loved and she was having a great time. And it was actually very scary for her to come out because then she's like, who's, who's there going to be for me on the other side and what am I going to do? And it sounds like one of the things that your, your program does is create structure, routine, community, love, and a lot of activity, a lot of positivity. Are there, what would you kind of advocate for people coming out of rehab and for the friends and.
Speaker 0: Family? How can they help? Do what they tell you you should do. This thing is not rocket science. You know, it's, it's, it's hard in the sense that, you know, people getting so over myself, I'll use my own personal experience. Like I lived a certain way for many, many years and I had to break a lot of habits, but at the end of the day, I did the things that they told me to do in rehab, which was like, you know, get connected, see a therapist, meet people, like jump into the recovery community, like do the things that you don't want to do, like go out to coffee with people, all this stuff that feels super cheesy and super corny. And like, you're too cool for, and you just want to like get back to hanging out with your old friends and like the whole thing. You know, I learned that I was able to do a lot of those things. And now today, you know, I am living proof that my best friends in life are not, well I shouldn't say that. I have five or six guys in my life that, you know, I kind of got sober with and are some of my best friends in life, obviously. And then I have a whole nother host of friends, which I talked about earlier, which is like the guys I went to high school with. And they're like, they know I'm sober, they know I don't drink, they know my story. And like, that is such old news in those relationships. And I'm just that to them now. So the first six to 12 months is tough. But if you can get to that year and the brain really starts to heal and you can start to love yourself a little bit and look in the mirror and be like, okay, like I'm starting to like myself a little bit more. And if the family around you or the people around you are supporting that, I think the person has a good shot, but you got to get connected. You got to have other people in your life that know what.
Speaker 1: The hell is going on. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, another pulling from my family example is I remember her just had a lot of discomfort around telling people she doesn't drink. And I guess like being labeled that way or not wanting to be awkward for other people. And it's a sad commentary on society that that has to be like a defining or that it feels like that's a defining feature of someone versus just Yeah, I mean, look, I try to share this.
Speaker 0: About this as much as I can, because look, I went to a lot of events early in sobriety. I went out a lot. I did a lot of things. I was around a lot of people and never once did anyone, I shouldn't say never once, but very rarely did anyone ask what was in my cup, which was seltzer with some lime. And the people that did most of the time were people that most likely had a problem with alcohol themselves. And we're just trying to recruit someone to drink with them or project their shit onto you and say, why don't you drink? Whatever like that. So I think that comes with time. And then as that carries into dating, everyone's like, how do you date sobriety? And what I've learned is if I sit down with a woman and I'm out on a date and I say that I'm sober, and this was even the case with Tayshia on the show, if I tell her that I'm sober and she's not okay with that or not willing to accept that, it's all good and I'm not meant to be with that person. But just knowing that and having the confidence to believe that and not giving my power away to the person sitting across from me. But it's a tough place to get to, and I get it, because we're insecure. And like you said, we feel everything.
Speaker 2: Amazing. I want to be mindful of your time. In the last few minutes, is there anything you would, any last words to share with loved ones of people struggling with addiction, like family members, friends, anything, any tips, words of advice, words of.
Speaker 0: Encouragement? You are the unsung heroes, the family members. I got to tell you, they don't get enough love. They don't get enough love. And that's, you know, if anything has come from, you know, the show that I was just on and kind of having this bigger reach, if you will, I've had a lot of people reach out to me and say, hey, man, I saw you on the show. I decided to stop drinking or I got 90 days or I'm a year or so. And like, I've tried to, like people that wrote me with purpose, like I'm like feverishly trying to like write them back, like, keep going. I love you. Like, I'm like high fiving, like, you know, in my apartment, like myself, like all pumped up, but even more so, you know, I'm getting a lot of notes of people either sharing about their loss and really curious about how like they can honor, you know, their loved ones who have passed and, or, you know, the ones that hit home the most, I remind them of someone who they lost, you know, a lot of those messages. And I just tell them to like, you're a hero for reaching out, like keep going. There's obviously volunteer opportunities and organizations you can donate to. And, you know, there's support groups like Al-Anon and other things that you can get involved with to kind of deal with some of that stuff. And then family members who have reached out to me and said like, hey, I saw you on the show. And, you know, my sister, brother, wife, husband, whatever it is, just got it six months or just got a year. And like, that's so cool because the family, you know, they're the ones that are oftentimes forgotten. You know, like if you really think about it and I'm good, I got a couple minutes here. If you really think about it, right. In my case, I'll just use my experience. I went to rehab for four and a half months. I had four and a half months of intensive treatment care, 24 seven around the clock to deal with my stuff. My family during all that was working, raising kids, carrying on with their life all while obsessing over how I am doing, you know, so they, they kind of get left behind. And then they, you know, they come out for a weekend and they say it's family education weekend or whatever it is. And all of a sudden they're supposed to just be, you know, have all the tools to deal with having a loved one that's struggling with this thing. And it's just, it's not fair. But there's, there are groups or there's support groups or ways that family members can get involved. So to them, I say, you guys are heroes. You are lifesavers. Thank you. Keep showing up. I know it's not easy, but what I always tell people is like, we hear you. I hear you. Everyone hears you, whether you, whether you want to believe that or not. Like when you say, I love you to someone that is blackout drunk, putting that energy out into the world, that person hears.
Speaker 1: You, whether you want to know it or not. So. Well, that is a fabulous note to end on. We could have talked to you for four hours. You're welcome back anytime. Yeah. This was fantastic. Thank you. This is, it was so hard. I appreciate.
Speaker 0: You guys. When Jacqueline emailed me, I said, I can get behind this, you know, cause I'm getting a lot of these kinds of requests and stuff like that. And you guys obviously get it. And, um, the reality is if like one person heard this today or hears this, whenever you throw it up on whatever, however you throw these things up, gets help. Like, you know, we all did, we all did our job and kudos to you guys for doing what you're doing with the podcast. I saw some of the topics you're covering narcissism. It's like, you're digging into some, some gnarly stuff. So, you know, um, keep going. It's good stuff. Okay. Well, I thought that was an awesome conversation and I mean, so many of our guests are so great. So I guess I say that every time, but I really was excited to talk to Zach. He.
Speaker 1: Had kind of the unique experience of being both an expert and someone with personal experience with this. And so it was really great hearing him speak to both. And also what a nice guy.
Speaker 2: No, he was fantastic. And I, and his story is really, and his whole journey highlighted how much addiction and all this mental health, um, really involves like the whole system, right? The family, the friends, um, the community, the support, um, during the addiction support during the recovery. And he just lives in line with this mission that we love so much, which is like recovering from mental health and mental health itself. Um, you just really need that social connection. You really need those relationships. You really need trust and intimacy and, um, learning how to show up for your relationships and other people and, uh, learning how to love. So it just, uh, that was,
Speaker 1: It was so.
Speaker 2: Great. Um, so we think we think Zach so much for his time and, but we want to share, um, we want to share the resources that he was talking about. So his, uh, recovery program, you'll find it by release recovery.com. Check out the, the services that, um, he talked about in the podcast, as well as the places to donate, um, to really support people who can't afford these services. It's very, very expensive to get this kind of help that he did. And a lot of people don't have that, those that, that help. And so for him to do this fundraising efforts to support those people, it's just, it's just incredible. So please go to that website, uh, release recovery.com. Yeah. I second that. I'm really excited about the work he's doing, especially, you know, Kimmy and I both have family members who have been suffering from the same thing. And so it's just, it warms my heart to see somebody so dedicated to this and so excited about this work and trying to make it more accessible to other people. I'm very aware of how lucky my loved one, you know, is to be able to go to the best rehab there is, but I'm hoping for a future with really great treatment options for everyone. And so is he, so check out release recovery and donate if you can.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. And if you enjoyed this or any other episode, please feel free to rate review and subscribe. We'll see you next week. Bye guys. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general non-commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast. And information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.ion text goes here
