Ep. 137 - Self-Pity: The Social Costs of Wallowing In Your Troubles
Ever found yourself wanting to scream when someone launches into their hundredth "woe is me" monologue? Yep, we've been there. In this episode, we talk about one of the more isolating coping mechanisms: self-pity.
We break down exactly what makes self-pity so aggravating for loved ones—that toxic combination of helplessness, victim mentality, and emotional quicksand that seems to pull everyone down. Unlike genuine sadness or grief, self-pity comes with an external locus of control that rejects solutions while demanding endless reassurance. It's the "help me, help me, but don't help me" dynamic that leaves friends, partners, and even therapists feeling utterly powerless.
We explore the psychology behind why people get stuck in self-pitying patterns, the difference between legitimate suffering and wallowing, and the crucial distinction between self-pity ("poor me") and self-compassion ("poor us"). For those drowning in self-pity, we offer actionable strategies to reconnect with agency and break free from the cycle. For the exhausted supporters, we provide practical tools like "dropping the rope" and setting boundaries without drowning in guilt.
Whether you're dealing with a chronically self-pitying loved one or catching yourself falling into these patterns, the way out of self-pity isn't more reassurance—it's recognizing that even in our darkest moments, we always have a choice.
-
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:01.646)
Hey guys, so last week we did an episode that was just like really fun and I was excited to talk about it. This week we are doing an episode that I'm excited to talk about for a completely different reason, which is it is probably the trait that annoys me the most out of like any human behavior. And that is self-pity. So I'm going to warn you right now that my levels of empathy for this are going to be lower than on most other episodes, but
that also makes me jazzed to talk about it. So, Kibby, kick us off with how KulaMind can help deal with self-pity.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:39.698)
Sure. Well, if you have a loved one drowning in self-pity and you're going to try to support them and not lose your mind, we can help. Just kidding. At KulaMind, we help all of you really use the skills and all the insights that we talk about, which is how to break toxic cycles in your relationships, how to support someone else going through a lot of emotional difficulty.
It's probably also making it hard for you. But just if you want relationship help in general, applying these skills that we talk about, check out KulaMind K-U-L-A-M-I-A-N-D.com. And essentially, it's working one-on-one with me. And I'm basically in your pocket texting you anytime you need help. So book a free call with me and you can talk to me about how I can help.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:31.392)
Well, Kibby, you were the person that I went to for help when I was dealing with a friend drowning in self-pity, so I can attest to that helpfulness. And you've been very good at helping me not feel guilt after releasing that relationship. So there's my own little plug. Kibby, kick us off with the definition of self-pity you just read me before this episode started.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:47.058)
Thank you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:54.226)
Oh my God, it's so good. Especially because when we were looking up what is self-pity versus like, you know, feeling sad about your life circumstances or being a victim. It's like, what is the definition of self-pity? And I just love this Oxford Languages Dictionary definition. Excessive self-absorbed unhappiness over one's own troubles.
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:22.263)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:22.898)
Love that. I love the dictionary dripping with judgment.
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:27.342)
Even the dictionary is annoyed by this behavior.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:30.578)
So why does it annoy you so much? What about it? Like, can you give me example of how this shows up? I mean, it's everywhere now these days. I don't know if I'm biased, but it's everywhere.
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:41.12)
Yeah. There's such a self-absorption. There's such a narcissism in it. This feeling that, you know, I've got it worse in the world than everybody else. That, you know, there's nothing I can do about it. The universe hates me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:55.388)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:01.888)
Just that, like, look, like, everybody's gonna pity themselves sometimes. That's fine, right? Like, if I break my arm, I'm gonna pity myself for a little while. But this is when it extends past, you know, the window of reasonability. And, you know, obviously with some patience, like, with some of my patience, I have more patience with it. Okay, how do I reframe that? With some of my clients, I have more patience with it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:17.02)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:29.928)
than others, but there's such a helplessness in it. It's so, I mean, it's associated with like learned helplessness, right? It's like, life sucks. There's nothing I can do about it. And it's like, okay, well, then there's nothing for me to do about it either. Unless you're interested in changing this attitude, we don't have any place to start really. I mean, I'll start with BA usually, but behavioral activation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:49.682)
Right. So you're tying in, so the definition that I just read of the excessive self-absorbed, wallowing in one's own troubles, that's the feeling, right? And I was just thinking, gosh, mean, think about how many of us have suffered from depression or legitimately hard times and sat around being sad for a long period of time about your problems, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:18.53)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:19.602)
you know, depressed or ruminating or, but you're also adding the thing that's probably more like frustrating for loved ones and other people and therapists is the helplessness. And it's like the, like, what do you do about it? It seems like not just feeling that emotion, but also just not doing anything to change it. Am I right? Or are you like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:41.71)
That's half of it, and then the other half of it is the self-absorption with... It's not just... I mean, the wallowing is annoying, but it's this sense of... Things are worse for me than other people. There's a quote that I'll read, which is that... Sorry, Jan. I'll have to cut this out a
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:08.896)
I scrolled too far.
Okay.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:18.252)
Sorry, so the quote is from Chris Anath, emphasizes that unlike self-pity, which says, poor me, self-compassion says, poor us. And this really kind of highlights the fact that self-pity involves feeling alone and personally victimized by the world instead of realizing that struggle is a shared human experience. When I, I just ended a friendship.
over this in part, in large part. And when this person would talk about how the universe hates her and, you know, her life is terrible and she's so alone and nobody cares, and like, at the same time working with veterans who have seen their friends blow up or people burn alive or little kids being beaten to death, you know what mean? Like, those people have it hard. And...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:50.994)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:12.306)
Okay.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:15.886)
It's even a little bit frustrating when they wallow in self-pity all the time. I honestly don't really.
her basically being like, I got dumped and so therefore the universe hates me and like I have problems with friendships. Unable to recognize like her own agency in that was really frustrating to me. And I think that that is what happens a lot with self pity. It's like everybody struggles. Some people struggle way more than other people, but even the person who's struggling a ton can always find somebody who's struggling worse. And that doesn't mean you just tell yourself to buck up and get over it. That doesn't mean that at all. You can have self compassion.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:30.45)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:50.256)
Right? Like, of course you can feel sorry for yourself, but if it just extends and extends and extends and then it involves helplessness and it involves hatred against the universe and hatred against others and all of this, it's just, it's this bolus of maladaptive coping mechanisms that's not gonna get you anywhere. It's just keeping you back and it's gonna cause other people to flee.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:16.21)
Yeah, I mean, it's the agency is a really interesting part of it. And I don't know what's going on with the world. was just recently talking to different psychologists or therapists or coaches, and everyone's kind of remarking how a lot of men are having trouble with self-pity. And yeah, I...
I think it's also hard for us therapists who sit there and hear a patient over and over talk about how the world is against them. And I think that, I don't know, I think there's just a vibe in the world where people don't feel agency, or they don't understand their own agency, which I'll take the compassionate side today. It is confusing what agency means to you, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:00.866)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:12.08)
You could work super hard. can be a really good employee, but if you just right now happen to work in a federal program, like you don't know if your job's at stake or the economy goes up and down, people have lost their jobs left and right. it just, things feel out of our control. Or maybe we're told that things are out of control, right? Like our data is being mined, you know, and the Chinese are going to take over. Like we don't know what control or power we actually have as individuals.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:21.524)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:41.506)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:41.798)
And I think the only power we can tangibly get is the power of being seen and understood for your feelings. So if I want to feel powerful or feel agency, I'm going to write about my pain in a public sphere and get eyes on it. Right? And that fuels like a narcissistic, but like covert vulnerable narcissism of like, look at my pain, which means that
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:54.348)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:09.528)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:12.924)
which means that there's like this idea that I don't have control over it. So I feel extra entitled to this suffering instead of something that I made, I did for myself, right? So it's like all the pain I feel, all the blame to the outside, but no accountability and no agency on my end, which, you know, can be painful on its own. I'm not saying it's only for people who are like terrible people who want to get attention, but sometimes it's just like,
People don't feel like they have control over the things that happening to them, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:46.25)
Yeah, no, I agree with everything you're saying. think emotionally all I want to do is push back on any justification for self-pity, but I think it's a good point is that when life feels more out of our control, our locus of control is going to externalize and then we're going to feel helpless and then...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:48.69)
going to it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:13.614)
And how do we make ourselves feel better if we can't do anything other than seek validation?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:20.658)
Yeah, and for people who don't know what that means, external or internal locus of control is where you think the control over your life and what happens to you exists. Is it external, like external factors, like other people, the system, our society, whatever, is it luck? Or is it internal, like I am able to do stuff? And there's a lot of research showing that people who have an external locus of control
especially when it comes to negative stuff. No, wait, both, it's both, but it's different. So if you have external locus of control, you're more likely to be depressed because you think, well, gosh, anything good that happened to me is just someone else gave it to me. I can't actually have any control or say over that. And then same with the negative stuff. So it just is like, I'm helpless, as you said. So I just want to jump in with that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:52.056)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:17.13)
No, that's helpful. Yeah, I mean...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:22.13)
So why is it so annoying for you? Like, why do you, like, going into your pushback against it?
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:30.486)
I think that it demands a lot of me and then rejects anything I try. Other than validating the warped worldview.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:37.138)
Okay, makes me feel good.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:42.702)
and even learn sometimes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:47.282)
Say more. What does that look like? What is it like a thing that would really get you if you're listening to someone drowning in self-pity?
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:48.853)
I mean.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:58.478)
With her it was like, you know, she went through a breakup with my friend. Who I'm very close with. And so it would be like, he's a monster with no empathy and you know, abandon me.
yada yada, nobody loves me, and he's now happy with someone else who sucks, and just like intense like negativity and criticism. And if I agreed with any of that, right, then that would be bad. If I pushed back on any event, tried to reframe or anything, then that would be like, you're invalidating my worldview, and now I feel even more alone. Which is the thing about self-pity that I'll pin. And get back to.
And if I try to offer solutions, then it's like clearly looking for validation over solutions. But the problem is, is that the person getting blasted with self-pity all the time gets sick of validating. They get compassion burnout, right? I mean, this is like what the literature is showing. And it's also just blindingly obvious if you've ever been in this dynamic. Like it gets frustrating to validate somebody's...
feelings that come across as delusional and toxic and self-absorbed and contemptuous, you know what I mean? Like it's just off, it's an off-putting experience.
Especially when that validation doesn't seem to lead it to anything except for more self-pity So I think it puts the other it puts the other person listening to it in a bind That feels impossible to get out of because then if they bring any of this up then it's more evidence That nobody loves them in the universe is against them and they can't bring up their feelings or emotions and they're even more alone
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:49.37)
Yeah, I think the bind is a really key point. think that...
Negative feelings about yourself, even a lot of them, like we've all been there. Like when you started talking and saying like, I broke up with someone, he's a monster and he's with someone else, like, yeah, I've been there, you know, that anger rumination, the negative, the rumination over like something that doesn't feel fair. Like that's, I, I, I fall to, you know, doing that a lot. but the interesting thing that you're saying is like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:08.354)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:15.842)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:25.86)
it's a self-absorption. So there's something about like making you an audience, right? It puts you in a place where you can't ignore it, right? Like it's kind of why I don't like when people talk at me, when they come in just start talking at me, but I don't feel like you're talking to me. I'm like, I can't leave right now. I can't do whatever I was doing. This is really usurping my space and time, but like you don't see me as a person. You're not like, I'm just like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:30.338)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:35.864)
for you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:50.498)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:55.292)
kind of dehumanized and are objectified. And then there's like the power and control. even thinking of the psychodynamics about it, I mean, we talk about this in DBT when people with borderline personality disorder or other kinds of trauma, they'll fall into what we call active passivity, which means, which kind of looks like help me, help me, but don't help me. There's nothing you can do to help me. Help me. I'm in such suffering.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:21.099)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:24.58)
You know, you, there's nothing I can do about it. You do it. no, you can't do it. And the tricky part about it is we are okay with that if it actually gives that other person something to do to help them. Like if it's actually effective, it's effective way of asking for help. But when we talk about active passivity in therapy, it's also blocking the therapist's ability to help. But then what that does is it projects
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:42.347)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:54.684)
the helplessness. That person feels helpless. And so they're going to make you feel helpless. Help me, help me, help me. Care about me, care about me. actually, you're not that good at it. Nothing you do is actually working. So it makes you the helpless one. It's crazy, right? Not crazy, but like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:56.215)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:04.782)
Good job.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:09.1)
Yes. Yes. No, it's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, she would always say like, I just want to be witnessed. I'm like, but I am not interested in watching this play. You know, like, there's nothing in it for me, right? I don't, the thing is, is like, when you come to another person and you're in pain, like,
and it's somebody that loves you, like, they have a limited window of tolerance for getting nothing in return. And one of the things people can get in return is feeling the self-confidence boost and the, you know, the joy that comes from genuinely helping somebody. So if you're able to co-create that dynamic, then that's one thing. But if it's just, watch me.
I'm gonna command your attention, monopolize your attention for no gain on your part forever. That person is going to leave. Because it's not interesting, it doesn't generate any kind of feelings of esteem or connection. And then that person is going to feel like I'm just an unwitting participant. You just want me to sit here and watch you, but you don't actually give a shit about...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:11.25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:32.792)
how I feel or what's going on in my life. And then of course this brings up all sorts of issues with envy. I mean, if you think that the universe hates you and that other people don't love you, then well, what about your friend who has a good life, has successes in life? Is the self-pitying person going to be able to feel happiness for you? Probably not. So it's like, what can you even bring to that person?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:53.574)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:57.905)
Hmm, that might be a part of narcissism, the envy part. I think there's something inherent in your conceptualization of self-pity that might not be all of it, all of self-pity. That like, what you said before, needing to be the most in pain, needing to, let's say what you just said, not be happy or not be able to engage in someone else.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:15.746)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:23.898)
else's happiness. I feel like that is a little bit more narcissism because that's like a that's a specialness, right? I have a special right to be self-pitying. There are plenty of people like patients or otherwise who I've experienced like a lot of self-pity from who don't or still able to be happy for someone else. Not like the happiest way because they're depressed but they might be like I'm the worst. I'm terrible. Nothing good happens to me.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:48.718)
Great.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:52.178)
my friend, I'm glad that she's happy, but you know, so I think it's like what you do with that negativity makes a difference of like narcissism versus just self-pity.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:00.482)
I mean.
I do think that what I've been experiencing lately has the narcissistic bent and so that's what is in part riling me up. But I do think it would be difficult to be happy for other people if you believe that nobody loves you and that you're fundamentally unlucky and that you're just helpless in a victim of life's Like it would just be a tall ask, I think, to then be happy for somebody who is the universe's favorite child.
So I don't know, but I mean, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:36.198)
Yeah, I just don't think everyone who's depressed also feels envious. Some people are just like, don't even care how they measure up. I see your point, but I feel like those are two different things. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:39.117)
Really.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:42.946)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:48.342)
No, that's good. Yeah.
I mean, I will say either way though, if you are friends with somebody who has self-pity and who is capable of feeling happy for you or not, it can be difficult to bring up your own successes. So, you just, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:01.842)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, excessive self-absorption, right? Like excessive and just like, that is just filling up the emotional space. I just the agency is such an interesting part. It really is like, I mean, we were talking about this before, but I could see how it gets reinforced at first, right? Like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:17.24)
to hear.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:28.848)
you get reassurance, you get a lot of praise, you get a witness, right? If I start talking about how hard my life is, like most likely you're gonna pay attention and not bring it to you, under normal circumstances. So it's reinforced by the attention and support. And then at some point, if it doesn't lead to any change or improvement or even good, like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:39.374)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:44.824)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:56.53)
positive feedback like well thank you so much for like letting you letting you vent about my self-pity today I appreciate that then for you it's just like I'm gonna get compassion fatigue I mean I do remember when I was in high school and had that like really toxic relationship and I was fighting all the time and I was talking about it all the time I was really wallowing it in it and
and probably in a more anger-ruminant way, right? And my friends eventually were like, they had to stop talking to me about it. One of my really good friends said, I cannot, I'm sorry, I cannot talk about this relationship with you anymore because it seems to be just painful and it seems that you're not doing anything about it. Change it, get out of it. change, you know, it's just like years of the same thing. That's when friends burn out, loved ones burn out.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:47.564)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:52.942)
I know, it's an interesting example, the abusive relationship or the shitty relationship one. Like I, you know, I have another friend who's in a shitty relationship, not abusive, and she'll talk about it a lot, and I get frustrated, because I'm like, just break up with him, come on. I do not experience her self-pitying. I think the difference is that she has...
kind of self-awareness to not bring in the victim mentality. It's more about like a complaining and emoting about life circumstances without saying, poor me, without saying like, I'm a victim. But I think a similar thing can happen with loved ones where people are gonna get burnt out on the relationship thing too, because they're seeing it as this is a problem that can be solved pretty simply.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:33.714)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:50.912)
excommunicate this guy or this woman, right, and then you'll be free and then this whole this whole issue will disappear. And that is enormously frustrating. mean, we've all been in those we've all been in these relationships. It's tough.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:10.134)
I have a little bit more sympathy for this, again, because it's not as much of victim mindset, and I know what it's like to be, for your self-esteem and agency to be seemingly hijacked by another person, where it just doesn't feel as if you can get out of it. It's not so much a, the universe hates me, right, but like, I can't.
This person is making me feel both loved and unlovable at the same time and that is messing with my self-concept to such a degree that I can't get out of it. I know that my physical being is like rioting inside me and so I feel all this anxiety and rumination and I have to talk about it talk about it then other people are gonna give you the same advice over and over again. You're not gonna take it and then they leave too. But I see it as a different process. I don't know, what about you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:04.442)
of self-fitty versus.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:07.768)
versus like anxiously ruminating?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:12.306)
Yeah, mean, I feel like this is, yeah, I feel like this is, we're coming back to the agency piece. I feel like I have a really, like, can I do something about it? Right? Being like, hey, this situation's hard. My relationship sucks. Versus like, poor me. Why does this always happen to me? Like, why do, why do these people keep doing this to me instead of saying like, maybe I'm picking the wrong guys or maybe I'm doing things, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:38.99)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:42.672)
I struggled with the romantic relationships the most because I've had people, I've dated people who really struggle with self-pity. It was really frustrating with me. At first I was like, I'm gonna be here for you and help you. And I wouldn't call it self-pity in my head. I'd be like, self-pity almost kind of sounds like it's your fault. You should recognize. But I was like, you're just sad and depressed. But then...
When you're in relationship with someone and one of them is drowning in self-pity, that means that they're dropping all their agency and control and putting all the responsibility on the world, aka you, right? Like if it's like, God, my life sucks. This is really, I can't believe this is happening to me. And what we're talking about is our lives. Well, I'm the only one left who manufactured this thing that's.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:23.522)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:39.708)
hurting you, right? And I think it's been hard for me because I'm really like doer when it comes to hard things and challenges. I may overcompensate by like doing too much, but I tend to like really dive into action when I'm upset. And so I am a very agentic, like I'm the one who drives a lot of things and decisions, right? So I'm an easy target for like all the responsibility.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:58.658)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:09.574)
be put on me. I'll give you an example. There was, I had a boyfriend who didn't, couldn't get around without a car. And he had a lot of financial problems in part because he got fired from his job and refused to get another one. And this is actually not my ex-husband, it's relationship before.
So he was like, I don't have a job and I'm not gonna look for one. Poor me, life is so hard, right? I don't have any money. And wouldn't seem to want to change it. And so he was looking to get a car and we were talking about, you know, different used cars that are like affordable within what he had and what he could manage. And he decided to go and get a loan for a brand new car.
like 30 grand and I was dumb enough to co-sign on that lease by the way because he was like, but I, you know, I need a car and if I were ever to get a job, I'm going to get, right? So I'm like, fine, I'll co-sign it on the lease. And so he had $30,000 in debt because he got a brand new car. insisted on getting a brand new car. And then when we were breaking up, he started, first of all,
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:07.182)
You
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:33.298)
We were breaking up because he got frustrated and was like stormed upstairs and I went upstairs to see what he was doing. He was packing furiously. And he was just like, I'm out, I'm done. We're over. And I was like, I'm really glad you're saying this because I've been thinking about this for a while too. I'm glad this is mutual. And he was like, what? And he...
like broke down, was like screaming, crying, and then he ran outside, I'll never forget, he ran outside and I ran to follow him, he was like, I can't believe you're leaving me with all of his debt. How could you do this to How could you leave me with his debt? And I, at the time, I just felt so bad, I got back together with him. I was like, oh, I'm sorry, you know, like, and then later on I was like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:11.886)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:26.642)
I didn't tell you to buy that fancy new car. What are you talking about? But that was like the most annoying and a lot of things like that happened. But an annoying version of self-pity where it's just like, you're just like, you're creating bad things for your life. And yes, there are a lot of external circumstances that are hard, but you know,
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:50.893)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:55.954)
It's not all the outside. It's also like, what can we do about it?
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:01.014)
Right, there's just a fundamental lack of self-awareness that comes with a lot of self-pity. just like, and that again is the lack of agents, because they're not seeing their own agency in these situations. But a lot of times when I see self-pity, I've got two major camps of it in my head. I think just experiences that I've had with it.
One is that more kind of narcissistic, self-absorbed, self-pitying. And one comes from chronic pain. I like really struggle with treating chronic pain in part because if you have chronic pain, it's hard for me to see how you wouldn't be depressed. Like me having a headache just makes me like incapable.
productivity. like imagining my whole body being in pain constantly or a part of my body, whatever, is just like, my god. And so that kind of self-pity is also frustrating for me, but it's far more understandable because that person actually has to go above and beyond to find their agency than, you know, the other can't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:20.594)
I would argue like emotional pain could also feel like that. There's some people with suicidal thoughts and tendencies that like it really feels like a physical, can't control this. And I think that's important part. If you wanna think about it in a sympathetic way, the people who we're talking about might actually feel like they are not in control of what bad things are happening. For example, if...
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:29.749)
Yes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:50.15)
There's some people, especially with personality disorders, who just like are mean and damaging to the relationships and then be like, why does everyone leave me? I don't understand. It's because they don't have the awareness to see their agency, like what they did to cause it, and which means that they can't see what they can do to stop it, right? So there's that blindness. But then it's another thing if you go,
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:11.054)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:18.438)
You can do this, here are the tools, go for it, and they don't want to take control. Now that's a different question. Like, what is reinforcing you not taking responsibility or not saying you could change your situation? What does that do for you? know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:24.109)
Yes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:34.158)
I I completely agree with you. I mean, part of this is just like my own frustration biasing me. Of course, emotional pain can feel worse than chronic pain in certain circumstances. And the way that you're raised, right, or the trauma you've suffered is going to make it feel as immovable and intractable as physical pain. I guess there's still part of me that's like, with the person who is doing this from an emotional painful place, it is easier to say to them in a sense, like,
Here are your resources go do something with them when somebody has chronic pain You can say here are your resources, but they're still limited in what they can do with it like They they they are going to lose hobbies they are going to lose Like travel they're gonna lose mobility. They're gonna you know, like lose sensory Ability there's just a real loss there and no matter what they do
there's still going to be a limitation. And I mean, you could make the same argument with emotional pain, but I don't know. But it's just like, sometimes with chronic pain, I can feel the helplessness very easily. Because I know that whatever I can do, it's not going to get rid of the fundamental problem. And I don't always feel that way with emotional pain.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:40.242)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:48.454)
Yeah, right. I think that's the key, right? Like if you're thinking about physical pain, I can't actually do something about it. And with the emotional pain, you're like, you can do something about it. I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, I think that when we talk about like what to do about it, like what the tips are, if we think about like how do us therapists deal with patients who are like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:03.821)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:18.614)
everything's the worst. My life sucks. There's nothing I can't believe all these people did this to me. In DBT, I like this like metaphor that was really nice. I like the spirit of it. It's like, you could tell these people who pity themselves, okay, you might not have pushed you into the pool, but you're going to have to swim out of it. And that
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:42.552)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:48.914)
I just love that it's like, fine. You I think you could lean in with like validation for the sadness they're probably feeling, the emotions. Or you could be like, yeah, all this crappy stuff happened to you because of bad luck, external circumstances, whatever. But what are you gonna do about it? You tell me what you're gonna do about it because no one is gonna rescue you from this. You might attribute the problem to the world, but the world's not gonna get you out of it, unfortunately.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:18.37)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:18.418)
And that sucks. So what are you gonna do about it? And I think in that, in that spirit, we would like prompt the patient to be like, all right, what do you think is gonna help? You tell me. Drop the rope. Just like, you tell me. I'm not gonna keep pulling, try to pull and fight against your beliefs that you don't have any control. All right, fine. Like, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna stay this miserable? We can do that.
But that's a choice, and that is agency, is choosing to pity yourself.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:53.238)
And if they say, don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:58.173)
Okay, well, I don't know either.
I guess we're gonna wallow, what does that look like? What if like, how would you change if the world was completely out of your control? Bad things can happen randomly. What are you gonna do? Like, let's just accept that you have zero control. Now what?
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:22.776)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:26.36)
I need to get brave enough to say these things to people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:31.058)
I have said similar things in therapy. When I'll be a little bit more genuine and be like, you know, I've noticed that I'm giving you, like, I'm really working hard here with you. You say all these things and I'm like, what else can I throw at them? What can I do to support them? And I'm trying all these things and nothing works. And I feel so helpless. Do you feel helpless? Yeah, we feel pretty helpless.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:34.018)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:01.682)
What are we gonna do now? What does helpless feel like? Let's sit in that for a while. I think that I would do that, I would slow down, but that's me working with it. As a friend, I'd be like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:12.226)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:15.378)
I'm part of your world, man. I don't... I gotta do stuff. I gotta take out the trash. got, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:21.549)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:27.45)
I think this is the thing that brings up the most helplessness for me. My tips might be non-existent this episode, I don't know, so I'm glad you're taking the reins here. I do think that part of this is recognizing how maladaptive this is going to be. The research here is incredibly scant, but what there is, what it's talking about.
you know, all the things we've talked about thus far, but also this sense of like the social repercussions of this and the mental health repercussions which is like as you ruminate with this external locus of control
with this helplessness, only going to make your situation worse because you're going to be generating and generating and generating more and more thoughts about your own helplessness, about how everything sucks, about life's unfairness. And then what's going to happen is that you're going to want people to rescue you and they will at first, which also will continue to generate this. And then you're going to have this dual process of self-hatred and other hatred. Like, I'm so terrible, why aren't people rescuing me?
they're so terrible and that's going to push people away extremely quickly and so then you're going to feed more and more into the isolation so I think like step one of this is recognizing that it's happening and I again I want to be clear like this doesn't mean suppress I mean it might initially if you want to keep your friends
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:53.938)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:07.854)
But, you know, this doesn't mean like, it doesn't mean that it's not justifiable to feel bad for yourself. Like shitty things happen in life and of course you're gonna feel bad for yourself. Some things do suck. There is a kind of injustice mentality though that I think happens a lot with this. Where it starts with an assumption that life should be fair and it's just not fair to me. The rules aren't working to me.
And that's never gonna get you anywhere because everybody else is existing in this unfair world too and they're attempting to make it work. so this like justice, know, mindset is just like, it's not gonna get you anywhere because you're not accepting the reality of your life, which is like, the world does not give a shit about you. People do, some people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:54.866)
Okay, but there was, there is some research that we found that said that self-pity might actually be a good, a helpful, adaptive response to recognizing when you are helpless, right? Like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:02.776)
helpful.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:10.894)
Okay, well first of all, this is a philosophical paper. It's not a psychological paper. So this was not an empirical study. So I just wanna, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:15.762)
That's That's true. I do want to recognize that might be some situations where you can pity yourself a little bit, right? Like if you're just like plugging away and suddenly it hits you how hard things have been or how crappy some institutions and groups and communities and social norms are for certain people, you know, like some things just aren't fair. And you might have a moment where you're like, like kind of wallow in it and go, oh my God, like
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:44.959)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:45.906)
Like I had cancer last year, know, raising a two and a half year old. you know, like I feel bad for myself right now. But like with anything that coping with that is leaning into the sadness, the shock, sadness, anger, like the feelings involved and not like spinning in your head why it isn't fair and why you can't do anything about it. which like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:53.39)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:11.526)
Spoiler alert, sometimes ruminating in your mind, like turning things over and over is a way to avoid the emotion. Right? Blame it. Go and think about all the people who are to blame. Feels productive, but it's not sitting with the sadness that things turned out the way they were.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:21.101)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:26.612)
Yeah, I just want to read a quote from this paper. So basically it says, emotional process of self-pity allows people to recognize injustice in the world without moving on and ignoring it. While the price is self-isolation, it's also a way to avoid self-delusional mechanisms. then basically because it isolates you, it provides time and space to transform themselves by establishing a specific type of dialogue with themselves, whatever that means. But I think, like,
I don't know if I am conceptualizing self-pity in the same way that this paper is, because to me the paper seems like it's talking more about self-compassion. mean, of course, like, this is the thing, like on the one hand life's not fair, and on the other hand sometimes life is really not fair. You do have to fight it, and so that's kind of a difficulty, but I think like, and this is where my kind of like, I lean too far and then never victimize myself camp, or sometimes then I'll get victimized because I'm not.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:09.927)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:24.027)
recognizing my own
I'm not recognizing the injustice of the situation that someone's treating me like shit or that maybe I should take care of myself more. So that's the other side of the coin, I suppose. guess, but what's interesting, right, is that in this philosophy of papers conceptualization, self-pity is agentic. It allows somebody to... Like, if you just sit around recognizing injustice, that's completely useless. Like, it's probably better to just...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:49.916)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:58.482)
not think that you're in an unjust world unless you do something about it. And that takes agency. Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:03.302)
Mm-hmm. Yes, the dude. Yeah. I would say that in that sense, I've had self, like, helpful self-pity moments. I've had unhelpful self-pity moments, too. Don't get me wrong. But times when I have been, like, trying to work through each day and trying to get through the day feeling like crap, right? This past year, like, all the treatments, I felt like crap most of the time. And...
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:25.794)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:31.342)
Some things, I'm like slower on some things that I'd like to be. My mind doesn't work as fast. I just, I'm just like operating at like 60%. There are times where I was just like wallowing in that excessive self-absorbed self-pity where I was just like, I have cancer. Like I got cancer and it's, it sucks. It just sucks. You know, like there are other days where I'm like, no, I could try to eat healthier and, and try to figure out why I, you know, but there's.
There's a lot of chance, was randomness, there was external locus of control, I guess, in part. Like, I just got a bad hand with cancer. And sometimes it just helped to have those days, as that paper said, slowing down, recognizing injustice. Yes, I also felt like this is hard for a lot of people with cancer or lot of different illnesses. I think I...
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:20.386)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:29.426)
couldn't connect to like a human suffering on that level, but like, there were some days where it just was helpful just to sit around being like, poor me. Then getting myself out of it. If I stayed there for too long, I think that would be isolating and not helpful.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:38.328)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:46.542)
I don't know what you did with Alex, but with me at least, you protected yourself from the socially isolating qualities of self-pity, which I think involve... So one thing we know about self-pitying individuals is that they have got a lot of anger, and that tends to be anger in, meaning they're not necessarily throwing plates against walls, but they're angrily ruminating.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:14.342)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:14.99)
It's like going over like injustice scripts and you're... I didn't really get any of that from you. Not saying that would have been a terrible thing, but like chronically, you know, this just like, it is me against the world. It is me against therefore like you, right? Like it's me against other people. Can really push people away.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:18.162)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:38.946)
But yeah, mean, I would have, like anybody should probably feel pretty bad for themselves if they've got cancer. So I don't really know what the right...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:39.154)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:49.894)
Although, but it falls on the helplessness. Like, if I were to sit around talking about like, poor me, I have cancer, it would be valid for me to say that. But would do all the things that we talked about before, which is making you feel helpless, me feel helpless. Like, there's nothing you can do. I am like, my life sucks because of cancer. You just be like, yeah, yeah. There's nothing I can do to help that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:57.624)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:13.122)
Hmm. Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:16.882)
But I think you're talking about a very particular type of self-pity which throws the blame on you, attacks you, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:25.036)
Well, or just me as part of the collective human race. mean, like this girl was never basically saying like, you are the source of all my problems or like you're I mean, sometimes she would get pretty mean to me. But it was more because I was a participant and like in the human race and like wasn't being helpful enough.
I mean, A, like I think there's a balance thing. Like you just weren't inundating people with self-pity. B, I think that people saw you as having a pretty legitimate reason for having self-pity if you did have it. C, I never really heard a lot of like, poor me. It almost felt like more like poor us, meaning all of us with cancer or who could get cancer, like, which I think is again, more self-compensating.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:59.634)
Thank
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:09.234)
But interesting, interesting different differentiation that you said, I have a reason, I have a legitimate reason to feel sad about myself. And so I think what you're talking, are you talking about people who like feel self-pity for stupid reasons that you think are so-
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:30.562)
think when you're, look, when you're talking to your therapist, your therapist is gonna say you have great reasons for feeling bad for yourself and you don't need to have a quote unquote legitimate reason. But when you're talking about friends, you're talking about just like being socially successful, like there's a world of difference between having cancer and going through a breakup or having cancer and you know, even like my cat dying, you know, I mean, it's just like people are going to take that into account.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:33.649)
You
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:00.338)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:01.056)
Even if like, mean, the thing is, is like the person going through a really horrible breakup, like maybe it was a really horrible breakup, maybe two, like abandonment is a really huge issue for them. It is a lot of their life. Like, of course that can be a good reason to feel self-pity, but just socially speaking, we do have like, whether we like it or not, we have different expectations about what people are gonna wallow over. And cancer is at the top of the list. Cancer and grief, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:28.976)
Yeah. I mean, it is, it would be pretty boring if I, if I were to like go on and on about it, but so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:35.756)
Yeah, but yeah, but I mean, I just think we're talking about like you have to strike a balance like nobody's never gonna feel sorry for themselves ever so there has to be a balance and there's gonna be different components that feed into that balance one is going to be the perceived legitimacy of your complaint Another is gonna be like how much do you make it about this sort of?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:37.778)
You're gonna die.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:56.086)
like delusional sense of injustice or like what the world owes you or you know what I mean or hasn't given you. Another is going to be just amount like the amount and the duration that you unload on people. Another is going to be like how much is anger involved? Another is going to be how much do you just not accept anything the other person is saying and just want them to witness you in it. I mean I think if we're thinking about tips for this, one of the biggest tips is just like realizing whether this is serving you or not.
because ultimately what these people want is to be less alone and this is going to make them more alone.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:31.93)
Or think about why, like, how it is serving you. I think if you are wallowing in self-pity, or if you're watching a loved one wallow in self-pity, you can think to yourself, what is reinforcing this? Right? It could be attention, right? Just pure attention. It could be that someone else jumps in and helps you, and is like pulling you and being the...
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:55.15)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:57.542)
the source of like, come on, you can do it. Like, let's be right. Like giving the agency to someone else. It could be because it relieves you of having to do anything hard that you don't want to, like work in therapy, you know, change your circumstances, right? Like you just don't wanna. So, I mean, you could think about what is reinforcing it and like try taking it away, right? Like if you notice that your loved one keeps
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:11.991)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:26.418)
doing, life is so hard and get some off the hook of a house chore. You'd be like, yeah, that's hard. Go ahead, just pick up the trash now. Keep giving them the agency. Don't feed into whatever is reinforcing this helplessness, active passivity.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:37.122)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:46.732)
Right, yeah. So there's tips for the people who are self-pitying and there's tips for the people who are enablers or, you know, victims of self-pity. I mean, I think for the self-pity AI would read Victor Hugo's Man's Search for Meaning, because then you're really going to feel bad about yourself for pitying yourself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:49.394)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:57.97)
True.
Everyone listen, Jacqueline and I did, during COVID we did a book club that involved reading Victor Frankl's A Man Search for Meaning. So we just read about a man trying to survive the Holocaust as our way of coping with COVID. It was fun.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:13.974)
Yeah. Well, yeah, because if you're pitying yourself for anything less than being at Auschwitz, then you're going to feel like a giant pussy after reading it. So that's my number one suggestion.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:21.738)
Yeah, yeah, it's graphic with what happens there, you know? Sounds good. Can't think better than what Victor Franco won.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:36.59)
I think two is just like it really real with yourself about the short and long-term consequences of this like you're saying this is serving some sort of function be really clear on what that is and then be really clear on the long-term consequences which are probably going to be isolation and a continuation of helplessness and a low mood and what you know and decide for yourself whether that's worth it like maybe it is I think if it's not worth it opposite action is a good thing fake it till you make it you know like act as if you're somebody who does not pity themselves at all act as if you are somebody who has a
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:54.907)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:06.543)
agency, try things out, you know what mean? And this is why I go for behavioral activation a lot when this is the case, because I'm just like, look, it's gonna be hard to have time to pity yourself if you're doing a bunch of shit all the time and rediscovering your own agency, What else?
Get in touch with your values. That's another part of behavioral activation It's like then this is what Victor Frankel was saying, you know, like even when I am as even when the universe is entirely out of my control I'm still in control of one thing and that is me so What do I want to dedicate myself to do I even if I pity myself? Even if I feel that life isn't just do I want to be an essentially kind person? Do I you know?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:36.912)
Mmm. Mmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:55.5)
Do I want to be a generous person? Do I want to be a funny person? you know, whatever the case may be, like, you can still beat that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:03.312)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And to feel sad, to feel the emotion driving this. Like, it could be a sadness somewhere. A sadness of a time where someone took agency from you, you know? Or just returning to this feeling of helplessness and what that's connected to. So just like emotional, you know, experiencing. For the loved ones, I try doing, get up.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:11.522)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:15.95)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:27.661)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:32.396)
Cut and run, just kidding.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:33.522)
Break that toxic cycle. I mean, as I've dropped the rope, that's a DBT technique where you just stop pushing that person and just go, all right, what should we do? What do you want to do? So like giving them the floor, the choice, right? And then I like the trick of different sneaky ways to show people that actually have agency.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:49.357)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:01.554)
So for example, like what we talked about, like it's a choice not to do anything, right? Like we say, okay, there's four ways to solve a problem. Any problem that you have, is a therapist like hack. If you have a problem, there are four things you could do. One is do something about it, right? Solve the problem. Two is think differently about the problem. See it from another side, get a new perspective. Three, accept it for what it is. Just be like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:07.618)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:30.8)
This is what it is? All right. Four is wallowing it and stay miserable. Right? So you'd be like, of four choices, it seems like number four is the winner. And even wallowing in lack of agency is a choice. Right? Little things like that. But sometimes you could just be like, or if you want to actually be nice, know, you'd be like, wow, look at this thing that you did.
that I've had agencies, isn't that great? Let's reinforce that and pay attention and ignore when they wallow in self-pity.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:05.006)
I've never presented that to anybody and I'm going to now and I'm really excited about it. The four choices.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:08.686)
yeah, yeah. Yeah, right? It's so simple, but it's true. You have four things that you can do. And the fourth one is to do nothing and be miserable. It's like, okay, that's a choice. And there might be reasons why they choose that because maybe it's too difficult to think of other things or something else is more painful. so wallowing and letting it drown out everything else is working in some way.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:14.456)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:24.184)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:38.818)
That's really good. Okay, so you can present the four choices. I think that one of the biggest hits of our loved ones, this might literally be a separate episode, is to get in touch with their own... Is guilt keeping them in? And if so, is that justified guilt? Because it's very hard to leave somebody...
who feels as if nobody loves them, nobody gets it, nobody cares, nobody sticks around. It's very hard to hear that and then decide to be the person who won't stick around, who will remove themselves. I am currently revved up to do this episode because I'm getting over a week's long hangover of guilt about ending my friendship. I'm sure that guilt will creep in again, but.
You know, I mean, felt this way breaking up with my ex too, where it was just, I mean, he had a slightly different presentation, but it's just like, how could I leave this person? How could I leave them to their own devices? They don't have any devices. I'm their device.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:51.666)
They're not as helpless as you think they are.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:54.306)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:56.658)
And then that's the story for everyone involved, the loved ones, you know, I think if someone feels so helpless and they might legitimately feel it, like they're treating themselves as helpless and you are like, you know, you're like, no, how can I do this to this poor helpless baby? It's like, that is all the problem here. They are grown ass adults. They'll be hurt.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:01.058)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:15.736)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:21.548)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:23.772)
They'll probably add this to the bank of like why life is unfair, but like, you know, that's a choice.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:28.078)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:32.79)
Yeah, yeah. And that goes back to them just like not accepting their own role in things. Or if they do, being like, well, I fucked that up, guess there's nothing I can do. I'm just doomed to fuck it up again.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:43.74)
That lack of insight, insight is that we could do a whole other episode on insight. Insight is so fascinating, but when it's lacking, it's really tough. It's really tough for the loved ones, you know? They don't orient themselves in space in relation to you. Like they're just like, here are my thoughts and you just have to deal with it. Like, you're not a person.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:55.341)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:03.342)
Yeah, I think I get pulled into being their insight or to thinking that I can be their insight when I actually can't. We're just like, let me help you think differently about this. Like, let me try to convince you of a different reality or show you what life could be or whatever. And it's like, it goes nowhere.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:13.682)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:19.75)
And then some people will take that in and use it well. And that's the people you should put energies towards, right? Who take your suggestions or help or support and go, thank you. Now that helped me look at this differently.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:26.829)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:34.243)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:34.874)
So loved ones just like stop hanging out with them, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:41.358)
Is that all we have to say on this subject? Okay. Well, I'm currently feeling a lot of self-pity because I come up with these clever little give us five star ratings quips and not getting as many as I want. We don't feel like anybody really cares about us or listens. But if you want to prove us wrong...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:44.186)
Yep.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:00.114)
It's really not fair.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:08.438)
even though I'm just gonna come back next week and say the same thing. Guess if I start reading on Apple Podcasts Spotify and leave us a comment. We love the comments.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:17.426)
Yes, there's a message on the show notes where it says send us a text. I want to hear from you guys.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:21.952)
Mm-hmm. Also that, yeah. Alrighty, we'll see you guys next week. we have an amazing guest next week. Should we just tease that? Amazing guest. You're gonna love her. She's in the sphere right now. Going back to our reality TV roots. So get excited for that. We'll see you next week.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:29.127)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:39.57)
you
