Ep. 136 - MySpace Top Eight: How We’re Haunted By Our Teenage Popularity
The wounds of high school popularity - or lack thereof - run surprisingly deep. In this episode, we explore how our teenage and adolescent social status continues to shape our self-concept decades later, informing how we navigate relationships, perceive our value, and approach social hierarchies.
We dive into research that reveals the complex relationship between adolescent popularity and adult personality traits, discovering if we have qualities that determine whether or not we're going to be "popular" throughout our life.
The podcast gets personal as we share our own teenage experiences - from the notorious MySpace "Top 8" friendship rankings that could ruin a week, to the Valentine's Day carnation deliveries that made social hierarchies painfully visible. We talk about how these experiences become formative to our identities because adolescence represents our first real attachment to figures outside our families, creating patterns that can last a lifetime.
For those still carrying these wounds, we offer science-backed perspectives for healing. Most importantly, recognizing that high school popularity often rewards conformity rather than originality allows us to reframe our experiences as badges of uniqueness rather than rejection.
Whether you were a queen bee, completely overlooked, or somewhere in between, we offer validation, understanding, and a path toward finally healing those stubborn teenage wounds. Subscribe to explore more topics at the intersection of mental health, relationships, and personal growth that help us all become better supporters to those we love.
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:01.536)
Little helpers, today we are doing an episode that I honestly cannot believe we didn't do years ago, given how fixated I was on it for most of my life. And that is high school popularity. Kibby, are you surprised?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:13.595)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:17.819)
did not know you were a viewer. No wonder why you're so excited. I was like, what's going on? You look a little too comfortable for this.
Jacqueline Trumbull (00:23.862)
Yeah, it's because you met me post-bachelor, which healed my wounds more or less. Yeah. Yeah, I knew it. So we're going to talk about high school unpopularity versus popularity, write a bunch of research, and then just, I think, just talk about our experiences and how it's affected us because I thought for at least a decade after high school about how it affected me. Did you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:29.099)
Mmm. Hmm. Created new ones.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:52.901)
I mean, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, so you will get my thoughts brainstormed and processed out live,
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02.048)
Yeah. Well, anything you want to say about KulaMind? Helping unpopular kids?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11.423)
Yeah, KulaMind if you have any, if you have any, you know, these emotionally challenging relationships or feel low self-esteem in relationships, struggling in general with a loved one with mental illness, we can give you skills and guidance for what to do, what to say to help your loved one as well as yourself. The simplest way I can explain it, but yeah, so you just want to
learn more, how we could help, have any questions, go to kulamind.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com. And could just book a free call with me to talk about what we do and how we can help you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:46.382)
Cool. Well, I wanted to do this topic because, I mean, just in general, I think it's really interesting, but I don't even remember how I thought to do this, but I posted a series of polls on my Instagram that were like, you know, if you were unpopular, or specifically uncool, I didn't mean necessarily like actively unpopular, like disliked, but like if you weren't cool in high school, does that affect you today?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:55.749)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:16.59)
I had another poll about that too, but I don't remember what it was. But basically a huge number of people said yes. Like people are still really wounded over this like uncoolness thing in high school. I mean the research is interesting. I mean I think like research again when you have these like gray dated questions, like what is unpopular? Is that like no friends? Is it like
deeply uncool and disliked? Or is it just like you weren't the popular group, which was more me? You're gonna have different answers, like essentially there are definitely still effects in adulthood of, like your popularity in high school can predict a lot of things about you in adulthood, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:11.055)
Bad news for you teens having a rough time.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:13.614)
I know. Well, it is kind of concerning with the teen social experience being what it is today, which is essentially asocial. But yeah, I mean, I think like...
So in general, see, like if kids were unpopular, and I think what the research was talking about was like actually unpopular, there's gonna be all sorts of negative effects, like depression and anxiety, stress levels, physical stress levels are higher for that population. Lower self-esteem, lower social skills. It can be hard to tell sometimes whether this is correlation or causation. mean, like there's one kind of pathway where it's like,
popular kids got a lot of social practice in high school. And so they had an opportunity to develop social skills and have just a lot of relationships, right? I I didn't have a boyfriend in high school, but I at least had some dating experiences that I was able to build on going into college and beyond. Actually, more so in Slovakia.
If you don't have that, right, then like your first dating experiences might be in college and then they might be as successful as your peers who have already been dating and then it gets pushed later and later and later and it becomes more and more of a struggle. So there's that aspect. And then there's this aspect of like identity development and self-esteem, which I'm pretty interested in because I definitely think that my social status in high school like affected
how I saw myself and how I would behave around other high status people. But I think what's so interesting about this and why it has such longevity, the result, the effects of this is when you are in high school, that is your first experience of having...
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:26.368)
a social consciousness that's more or less developed. You know, you're pulling away from your parents and so your peer group becomes much more important and you don't have any other evidence about what kind of person you're going to become. So this is where that gets developed. So when I wasn't popular,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:47.963)
Thank you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:48.842)
I was like, okay, well, all the evidence I have about myself is that I'm rejected by high status people. I'm like, not cool. I don't fit in in certain ways. And I didn't have any disconfirming evidence like I later did through New York, the bachelor, et cetera. And so this can get really cemented in people's minds and then influence how they see themselves far longer.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:12.069)
By the way, you look really cute tonight. So anyone, you know, check out the YouTube episode version of this and look at, she's wearing this nice little like plumping lip gloss or something going on. look really cute. Anyway, just wanted to mention, I agree with everything you're saying. I mean, we do know that that, when you're an adolescent, like 12, I mean, now it's like even earlier for kids, which is crazy. Like adolescence age has like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:14.712)
Thanks.
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:25.006)
Thank you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:42.235)
gone down a lot, you know that? Like took like 10. Yeah? Yeah. A range of cultural things, but that's the first time that you attach to figures that are not your parents, right? So it's like, you are, I mean, if you think about it, yeah, like what you're saying, identity is formed in our minds, like who we are is kind of like a mishmash of
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:43.47)
Because they were going through puberty earlier? I'm guessing it's because of obesity.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:11.117)
all these different experiences you've had in your relationships, right? Like, my brother is strong and I'm less strong or I'm loved or people really like it if I are kind to them or really high achieving, whatever, right? So we start to develop our idea of who we are based on our relationships. that's such, like 12 years old enough is such a formative time where you are
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:29.536)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:40.919)
like learning how to identify yourself in society. And like your first partner, right? Your first like major love or crush happens and you start to like have attachment figures outside of your parents. So it is a really interesting like critical time for figuring out who you are in the world.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:44.685)
No.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:57.846)
Do you, when you think about how you saw yourself in high school, does it map on at all to how you see yourself now?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:06.235)
You know, I don't know because I think I had, I think I cared less about how popular I was, I think. I don't know if it was the function of my school being smaller or there was definitely like a hierarchy, but I don't think we cared as much. I definitely didn't think I was like one of the, you know, like the popular kids.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:17.07)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:34.861)
I didn't identify that way. But I remember going to college and then people having a much different reaction to me, which is weird. Like in high school, I don't know, people didn't really notice me or you know, guys didn't think I was attractive and you know, I still dated someone, but it was only college that people started to treat me as like someone who's attractive and cool. you know, there was such a shift, but I, yeah, I don't like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:42.712)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:04.334)
I wasn't popular, but I don't think I cared in high school. What about you?
Jacqueline Trumbull (09:06.414)
I'm always amazed by that. I'm always amazed when people didn't care about popularity in high school. mean, popularity was like... I mean, it wasn't all I cared about. I really cared about my grades too, but it was a huge thing for me. I pretty much got over it after my freshman year because I... I went after it a little too strongly and wound up getting rejected by like my major friend group and went into this massive depression and then my sophomore year I was like, eh.
this popularity thing, not gonna work out for me. I don't like people enough for it to work out anyway. And then got good friends. But it's funny, reme- I- Emotionally, I think I saw myself as unpopular, but when I really looked back on it, I was probably just like a rung or two below the popular group. So I did fine. And I think, you know, a lot of this research- that's the thing, like a lot of this research is like, this effects of not having friends.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:54.299)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:05.526)
on people. And that certainly wasn't mine. I think mine was just more like I felt I didn't have a certain status. Because it's not even like the popular kids that I wanted to be friends with were like I don't think I was interested in them as people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:22.607)
What did, yeah, what defined, like, is this a school thing? Like, was there like a really clear, cool group in your high school? And like, what did it mean to be popular in your high school?
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:29.795)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:34.83)
I went to a very classic American high school in West Virginia. um, I'm trying to like, okay, so there were about 1200 students in the school overall, so 400 in the class. Um, and my school was very stratified because we, I mean, I lived in a town that was a university town in West Virginia. So there was like the poorest of the poor.
kids and then like the doctors kids. I we didn't have any celebrities or anything like that. Like Kibbe went to the Gossip Girl school so that's a very different experience. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:17.605)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:24.206)
I mean the football players, cheerleader, you they had some level of popularity. But I just remember there was a particular group of girls that just did not want to accept me. And probably because I didn't have that much in common with them and I just wanted to be seen like them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:41.243)
Was it like, imagine like Glee, you know, show Glee and all those like movies, was it really like they were rock stars and they could do anything they want? Or was it just like, you know, there was group that was like the hot ones.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:55.99)
Yeah, no, I don't think that honestly looking back on it, I mean I wish I could go back in time and have a conversation with my 14 year old self and be like, you're not missing out on anything. Everything these people have you're gonna get in like three years and you'll be fine. I think my problem, my issue is that I didn't go through puberty until pretty late. So I still looked very young until I was like 17. And so.
boys were just not really interested in me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:26.757)
By the way, I can hear your cat like really strongly, that's okay. Like we could probably filter, filter it out in back, but I wanted to mention that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:29.536)
Hi, YouTube. Yeah, she's being adorable. OK. So I mean, think what I wanted was I wanted boys to like me. I wanted boys to see me as a high value target.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:48.891)
So more about the sexual, like the dating impact.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:52.398)
I think it had a lot to do with just like how I conceptualize myself. Like I was very, I needed to be the best. You know, like I had the same basic hangups with academics where I just couldn't get a 4.0 and I couldn't get into the Ivies and I couldn't get into Duke. And I was like, I guess I'm just relegated to being above average. And that was not good enough.
And it was the same thing in the popular group. I mean, I think to an extent, we grew up with all of these coming-of-age movies, all these high school movies with the parties and everything. And I wanted that experience. I've always been such an experience junkie. I just want to taste everything. And realistically, when I was a senior, I went to parties all the time. They weren't those kinds of parties. But in West Virginia, who knows what we are holding anyway? mean, it's not like anybody had.
massive amounts of money. weren't bands playing at any of these parties, I don't think. So, it's kind of, I mean, looking back, there was nothing I was missing out on, but I can definitely see how that shaped, like there are just some people that I will always feel uncomfortable around. And when I went on The Bachelor, it was like, I mean, that was the exact type of people I was terrified of. I was like, I am not gonna fit in. I didn't do well in a sorority in college, so like,
That kind of high status, like popular pretty girl who's just got all this confidence and like is a girl's girl, I just don't know what to do with. Or I didn't know what to do with. I think now it's somewhat different.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:25.338)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:33.947)
What were your thoughts and like obsessions or fixations when you were in high school? Like when you were thinking about wanting to be popular or noticing this, would you be like down on yourself or would you be trying to what were like fit in with them in some way or?
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:55.32)
Kibby, this is so embarrassing, but also amusing to me. My first year of high school. Okay, so in middle school, I had these two best friends named Sam and Kate. Kate had been my best friend for a lot longer. Sam was kind of like somewhat new, but she was blonde, beautiful, blue-eyed, doe-eyed, like came from an artsy family.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:58.691)
I'm so excited.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:25.496)
You know, so she just like looked, she could take the best photos in MySpace. MySpace was the thing, you got 12 photos, right? And Sam, that motherfucker, always had the best 12 photos. So irritating. I was always trying to compete with her 12 photos. Anyways, we formed a quote unquote sisterhood with our other friend Sarah. And we did things like we made a bag out of denim, like the sisterhood of the traveling pants kind of deal where we like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:30.501)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:55.726)
pass it around and we put secrets in the, we wrote down secrets on paper and put it in the handle of the bag. And then one of them tried to take her secret out and we fucking caught her. Anyway, put that secret back in. We had these matching shirts that were totally shapeless and looked stupid and we all wore them. They were different colors. We all wore them and the cafeteria had three levels and we walked down the stairs but in a horizontal line down the first level.
It's pretty embarrassing. anyway, Sam and I were kind of like the queen bees at first. And I was closer with both Sarah and Kate initially. Initially. we all, Mean Girls had come out the year before. So we took our cues, or at Sam and I did, from Regina George. And we changed our voices, we changed our affects, we just said bitchy shit to each other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:37.445)
Mmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:54.336)
If I look at my yearbook from back then, it's like I'm like circling people and being like that ugly, like how does she like blue this guy? It's like terrible. Like really horrific. I don't know if I could do it now, but I don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:06.683)
How did you talk back then? Yes, you can.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:15.31)
I'm sure a lot of like, that's gay, like that kind of stuff. Whatever like little fuckers said back then, you know? I I wasn't good at it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:32.492)
I expecting that. was just, you're gonna say something about your hair? I don't know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:37.422)
That's hot. mean, Paris Elton kind of like whatever. We're just yeah, we're just mean and we just talked shit about each other so like constantly and then like Sam and I had the crush on the same senior boy and like looking like why was he interested, especially in me looking like prepubescent made no sense, but he was anyway, I far outpaced him in terms of hotness later. But we just like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:41.488)
that's right. Here's hold on.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:07.466)
you know, my god, we... I would like, his name was John, I would like have a secret conversation with John and then Sam would have a secret conversation with John, but we pretended like we were telling each other everything, but then we would tell like Kate or Sarah the thing that they would tell us and would get back to us and it was just this like whole square of nastiness. we all made out with each other. Sam and I made out with each other first and we like pressured Sarah into making out with us. I mean, it was just absurd and...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:36.635)
I mean, that is cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:38.454)
Well, I got ousted is the long and short of this. I got ousted.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:41.622)
no!
that happen like Regina George.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:48.236)
Yeah, kind of. I kind of don't remember how I got ousted. I think part of it was over the John thing. We were just, we were just talking so much shit about each other all the time that it was bound to implode, right? But what sucked was that like, I started out being closest to everybody and then I got ousted and then Sam became the official like Queen Bee and she got so good at MySpace and I was like decent at MySpace, but mostly I was just copying Sam's MySpace and the top eight.
This ruined my life. mean, this was a huge component of my depression, was we all played games with the top eight. So I'd be number one on Sam's and on Kate's, but then I'd be number three. And I'd be like, why am I number three now? And they'd be like, don't be dramatic. It's just my space.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:18.927)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:38.777)
Ooh, God, that's why being a teen now with Facebook, like all that social media to really quantify all, ugh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:47.918)
I I know. That top eight was a motherfucker though. I got, I remember I had this huge crush on this guy named Cody who, that was, that made no sense. But I was like number eight on his top eight for a second. This is what I mean when I was like a rung below and I was so shocked. I was like, oh my God, he thinks I'm his friend? Like we're friends? He never said anything about it then one day I was no longer on it. I was like, okay, well I don't know how to explain that phenomenon. But.
Just everybody shifting each other around. Who was their best friend that day? If you're a little bit mad at a certain, you just shift them down, one or two people, and they'll notice. They'll notice.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:24.823)
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:28.356)
How old were you? How old was this? Wow. That would have been crushing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:30.744)
I was 14.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:37.595)
I, one of my dad's old favorite memories of me, he was so proud of this. I don't remember the exact event that he's talking about, but I do remember the general time. So there was a time and I had a rougher time I think in like adolescence because I was in an all-girl school. And yeah, it was just like a bunch of like strong willed, like, you know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:56.92)
Uh-huh.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:06.459)
12 year old girls are awful. To put them all in the same room for extended periods of time, they're just like, it's brutal. my dad said that the popular girls at some point, well, it was really sad because I, one of my best friends growing up, Marin, I'm gonna make her listen to this, but she, we were friends, friends, friends, but I like playing video games and all that stuff, and then she started hanging out with a popular group.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:11.703)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:36.283)
And that really hurt, because she just kind of like was like, ugh, and kind of blowing me off. And I was like, you know, like my best friend was leaving me. And apparently the popular girls came over to me and was like, you know, we'll hang out with you or we just like give you a makeover or something like that. And apparently I said, go fuck yourself. And that was one of my dad's favorite memories of me.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:43.383)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (21:58.028)
hahahaha
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:03.032)
Good for you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:04.507)
I don't really remember. I'm sure it was more complicated than that and girls speak back and forth, but I think I do remember just feeling sad that my friend was gone to them and just having no interest, but annoyed. I was just annoyed at their waving the power and they were like, hey, Kibby, basically devaluing me. I probably was like, fuck you. didn't know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:15.757)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:28.948)
What was the social capital or the resource that you were all currying for in an all-girls school? Because for me, it's very easy to conceptualize as male attention. I don't know if that's quite right, but it's like the first thing that comes to mind.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:39.717)
Yeah. I think that's one marker. think that my friend, Manit, also, I felt was more popular because she, especially in New York, a lot of the kids met in, we all went to all girls or all boys schools, but a lot of them would meet in Hebrew school. It a big Jewish population in these New York schools. So they would all meet at 13.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:59.158)
The name of the man.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:05.081)
and then start like kind of dating each other. Whereas I didn't go to Hebrew school, so I didn't know guys. So my friend Marin was like in Hebrew school dating all these dudes. And yeah, like she's just like that probably like boosted her popularity. I'm so sorry Marin, if you're listening to this. But we just wanted power. I don't know. I don't know exactly what the, like you just felt the power amongst women.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:21.614)
That's the most New York shit I've ever heard. That's so funny.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:34.102)
Yeah, they're so
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:35.247)
Like one thing is the attractiveness and ability to get attention. But it's also just like, who could command the room? Like who's setting the tone?
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:43.572)
Right. So there's some really interesting research that looked at like curvilinear data. So it wasn't just like.
basically was looking at like a range of popularity and not just seeing like a linear correlation like you know like as you get more popular you get more pro-social or whatever it was like at what points in this range of popularity is like pro-sociality strongest and so one of the comparisons they were doing was childhood popularity versus adolescent popularity
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:04.283)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:09.307)
Right, right, right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:22.406)
And they found that childhood popularity was more associated with pro-social behavior, so they're nicer, basically. And adolescent popularity was less associated with pro-social behavior. Mid-range, like average popularity was. Those kids were nicer. But as you got more popular, you became more aggressive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:45.401)
What the hell did you just say? Okay, let's bring it down. If you were popular in adolescence, what happens? You're more aggressive later on in adulthood?
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:47.822)
Yes. If you are, if you are, no, no, no, if you are average popularity, average popularity, so like me, you are more pro-social. So you're nicer, you have lots of friends, right? But as you get more popular, so the really popular kids, they're more aggressive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:13.563)
Mmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:15.542)
And that makes sense because they had to basically keep their power. So they're more dominant, more, you know, like this is how they have this sort of status. And this does seem to exist into adulthood. An interesting thing is that the least popular kids in adolescence, no, I think this is actually childhood, they actually then became more aggressive in adulthood, which isn't super surprising either. Cause yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:20.635)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:29.401)
Uh-huh.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:43.163)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:48.162)
But that was kind of cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:50.011)
That is cool. So wait, how do we understand that? So basically...
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:57.07)
If I were going to map on careers, the really, really popular kids would be CEOs and doctors, and the average popular kids like me would be therapists and teachers.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:01.089)
Thank you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:13.829)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because they're better.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:15.724)
Like I had a lot of friends. I just didn't have status.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:20.739)
Okay, that's what the confusing part about this popularity question. Is it people who just objectively have more friends or in a social hierarchy or you perceive yourself or this is something that you just say about yourself like I felt popular or unpopular. Right, because that makes a difference. Like I wasn't popular but I probably have the same number of friends as I don't know, any other kid.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:33.827)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:41.248)
Hmm, I'm talking to data.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:50.326)
Yeah. Okay, so as hypothesized, adolescent popularity was associated with powerful and forceful behaviors and status indicators in emerging adulthood, such as proactive relational aggression, dominance, and influence.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:05.082)
Cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:07.062)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:12.95)
Okay, for proactive relational aggression, which I'm not entirely sure what that means, I should look that up, those low in adolescent popularity also peaked.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:24.278)
influence us too.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:24.709)
See, this paper is like not.
It's not good, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:30.341)
you know it's not good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:37.371)
I think.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:37.388)
Okay, popularity in childhood and adolescence was measured by asking longitudinal participants and their classmates to nominate who were most popular and who were least popular within their classroom. Yeah, they could nominate all classmates irrespective of sex or gender, but could not nominate themselves.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:46.203)
so they had to rate who were popular. Interesting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:56.099)
Interesting, that's a good study. That's really good study. Okay, all right, I'm in, I'm in. Yeah, I guess it's like what traits you develop to get power. And I guess that makes more sense in adolescence versus any other time, right? To really dominate, that's interesting. And then have that be an aggressive quality. I'm aggressive, but I didn't, I wasn't.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:58.058)
I know, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:14.006)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:25.499)
It wasn't popular.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:28.206)
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of interesting because we all think of kids as kind of mean, but I was actually popular for a year in elementary school and I did not even realize it. I had a clique. Everyone wanted to be in it. We rejected everyone. It was just for us four. And then...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:29.508)
You know?
room.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:47.502)
this one girl Morgan. She went to whine to her mom and her mom was like, my daughter's being excluded. And we had to have this big, like all the girls in the class had to stay behind during recess and talk to the teacher. And the teacher was like, there's a click here that is not acceptable. It's over today. We're disbanding it. And it was my click.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:04.443)
my goodness, it's so funny because I think we're probably like equal popularity, but you seem to care a lot. You guys were very, like you were, I could hear the social, fighting for the social hierarchy in your stories. I was just like, in video games.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:07.798)
Yeah. I want it. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:25.198)
I wonder if one of the reasons is that I had older siblings and I was constantly comparing myself to their success. Like I saw my brothers were pretty popular.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:29.563)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:35.83)
Okay. Hope so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:37.504)
And so I was always, they were both very good looking in high school and they both, I mean, they both got cute girls. Yeah, I mean, just remember like, mean, Charlie went to college when I was like 10, but they both had a lot of friends over. Like Andrew's friends were very clearly cool. Like they had very relevant contemporary senses of humor.
They listened to the right music. They wore the right clothes. They had a cute girlfriend. I mean, it was just like, you know, kind of a parent. And then my friends always thought my brothers were hot. They were always like talking about that. So I felt like I was in competition with my sister to be smart and then with my brother, Andrew in particular, to be popular.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:16.411)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:31.963)
So the real high school popular unpopularity contest was in the Trumbull home.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:40.386)
Well, yeah, we had a lot of competitions going in the Trumbull home. It's funny because my parents put zero pressure on me to be popular. I mean, my mom could not give less of a shit about that. She wasn't, I mean, actually she kind of was popular. She pretended like she wasn't popular. She was kind of popular in high school, but she like, my mom does not try to fit in with anybody. if my mom was very take it or leave it with her. I mean, she knows how to get people to like her, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:43.003)
You're your own head.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:08.948)
she would never have a vapid conversation if it meant being liked.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:13.819)
So what did it mean for you guys to be popular? Like you and your siblings?
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:21.004)
Who's you guys?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:25.647)
What would getting popular mean?
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:25.9)
I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:30.777)
Is it the power or is it the friendship? Because now that we're mixing, there's two different definitions, right? It's like people liking you versus being on top, which is very different.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:30.952)
I
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:37.848)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:41.226)
No. Yeah, I wanted to be on top. I had plenty of friends.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:47.331)
What did top mean? Like, what would that mean?
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:50.496)
I get invited to all the parties. Like there was a conspicuous lack of, for instance, Valentine's Day. There would be that, did you guys have this, carnation thing where you could buy a carnation and like have somebody send it to your crush?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:03.579)
Mm-mm. Ooh, that's fun.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:05.806)
I... my god, I know, I wanted that so bad. Every freaking Valentine's Day, I'd like, is this gonna be the year? Is someone gonna send me one? No, it never did. I never got like secret notes in my locker or like anybody, you know... Nobody from my school asked me to prom. I mean, I wound up going with my best friend Eric who...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:22.235)
No.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:28.01)
actually had another girlfriend who went with me instead, but that's okay. I mean, it wasn't a romantic thing. It was just, we had agreed to it earlier. So yeah, I just felt like I was missing out on a lot of like high school major markers, I guess, major events.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:44.271)
dances.
So then what did it feel like to get the popularity during the bachelor times?
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:52.642)
Fucking amazing and also bad because I didn't get the popularity, but I got it. Kibby and I were talking before this about like...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:59.589)
But you got the like, my God, you earned the bachelor. You still get that, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (33:04.206)
Yeah, no, think it essentially healed this part of me. When I first went on The Bachelor, I had two competing thoughts. One was like, holy shit, I feel anointed by the universe. Like, I'm a special person. I get to be a special person. And then my second thought was there's no way in hell I'm gonna last more than three weeks on the show. Because I was like, I'm not one of those people. I'm not one of those girls. The casting agents are their...
in middle age and I've always done well with much older people. So where I actually started to feel cool was in college, a little bit in Slovakia actually, because I was like the American exchange student who got a lot of attention and boys liked me there. And then in college, when I started going to New York and was fucking my boss, like that, you know, I was like, I couldn't get into the best for at parties at UVA, but like,
I was like fucking a rich CEO. So I don't know. mean, that was something I could hold. So yeah, but I was like, the Bachelor is the definition of people that do not get me and do not like me. And so I went on and yeah, I wasn't the cool girl on the Bachelor for probably multiple reasons. One was that I did not put myself front and center, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:06.415)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:30.574)
What I did experience was that actually most of those girls did like me and they were really cool to me. Like no one sucked. I mean, like when I first got in the limo, I got in the limo. I have great season, amazing season, great girls. I got in the limo with Jenna Cooper. Jenna is about to come on our podcast to talk about her wacko, like wackadoo beliefs and have us dissect them psychologically. Stay tuned. Like,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:41.083)
You had a good season.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:47.013)
Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:00.354)
Jetta's nuts, but she looks, and I mean it in the best way, she looks like a Barbie, you know? I was like, this girl will never like me. And then we wound up, she was like so unusual, you know? And then Kendall comes carrying four taxidermied animals under her arms. So I was like, wow, who knew?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:05.103)
Yeah. Yeah, great.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:21.905)
I guess these are all women who were different and owned it, right? Who are just like confident in like being a little weirdo and being different.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:26.125)
Okay.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:32.408)
but also conventionally attractive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:34.731)
Yes, that helps. Yes, they're gorgeous women. Yeah, that'll help.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:40.603)
huh, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:41.979)
So like, what was it like to walk around afterwards and people being like, she was on TV. my God.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:48.256)
Amazing. But you have to understand what I Like, okay, it's so funny when people would apologize like, I'm so sorry, I'm sure you get asked about this all the time. And you know, my star is like, it's basically completely, it's like a red dwarf right now. I mean, whatever the one is like about to be totally dead, whatever. I'm like, no, if you want to make me feel cool and famous one more time before I sputter out, like be my guest. Totally. That's totally welcome.
But at the time it was a combined thing, right? Where like all of the people from high school started pouring into my Facebook friend requests. So that was awesome. I was like, reject, reject, reject, reject. And then like I had a kind of cache from that that you just get to have for the rest of your life, which is amazing. But I also had all my airtime wiped and people hated me on Reddit. And I was like, see, I'm not the right, like I'm not somebody that people broadly like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:43.371)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:48.571)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:49.838)
So, you know, and it was this thing where I almost got it. I almost got total redemption, where I was like, I almost was in the top four, if I didn't take my fucking job, almost in the top four, like, would have been at about hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers, and I would have been like, I'm a cool girl instead. I was not a cool girl, yes?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:02.523)
Thank
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:15.323)
What would your life be different? Like, let's say, let's say, yeah, if you could, like, take the adolescent. You had, like, another, you had another high school period in The Bachelor where you got to be, like, you know, got to be, like, within the cool kids. What would it have been like if you stayed on that show instead of going to work?
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:25.582)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (37:39.702)
Okay, I'll give you the idealized version and then what's probably the realistic version. The idealized desired version is that I could step into any room with total confidence. Because I'd be like, I'm one of those people that everyone likes and admires and envies. And I'd be able to talk to any guy and any girl and I'd be invited to everything and...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:41.275)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:08.91)
Everyone would be jealous of me. Yay. The probable reality is that I would have been sucked much more strongly into a toxic hierarchical system that would have chewed me up and spit me out. And I would have had maybe a greater sense of cachet. Like I do enjoy that part, but like, I mean, the most tangible thing that I would have actually wanted was money. they just, if I would have had 500,000 Instagram followers, I'd...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:23.099)
marketing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:38.19)
be a lot wealthier right now. So that would have been great and there would have been cool opportunities, you know, this podcast could be huge and etc. But I think just from the popularity status aspect, what my core, like what my core, what my ego wanted to heal was that kind of idealized like no one will reject me. I'll just, everyone will want to be me kind of kind of deal.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:01.029)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:07.067)
Yeah, how'd I get imagined up?
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:07.554)
But yeah, I mean, think in reality, people just get stuck in these hierarchical systems and they pushed around and then new girls come and they're more popular and you lose your Instagram followers and all this shit happens, right? I just had a more rapid experience of that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:12.783)
chasing the air.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:19.971)
Mm-hmm. Wow. So funny that the tips from this episode is, yeah, just go on TV, go on national television, and that is a way to heal your childhood wounds popularity. Just become popular. And it works. It's great. No downsides. No notes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:36.824)
Yeah, that was what I suggested.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:43.247)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:45.787)
No, the rest of us are not on TV. The research does show that if you... really all about how you understand your past experiences, right? Like, if you internalize it like, everyone beat me up because I'm a terrible person and they saw who I really was and everyone hates it, right? Then it would be like, that would affect your self-esteem, right? The way you make it general to your whole character. But if you're like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:12.887)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:15.981)
I mean, we just were different kinds of people and those kids were kind of bullies. And, you know, like I had some friends and I had a good time, right? So that would actually be a little bit more protective. But.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:31.278)
Yeah, I mean I think like first of all research shows that even just having one close friend is very protective. So like if you're a parent, know, I mean even just finding one friend to just like friendship to foster just you know do that. I think that saves you from like the worst of the effect. I mean if your kid is friendless, that's it's a huge problem.
You know, I you can also do things like find online communities, Discord, you know, I've known people who do that. I'm a little bit wary of suggesting that though because I think it can encourage shut-in behavior. So I think that's a double-edged sword. But yeah, mean, realistically speaking, you know, I had groups of friends and I was never going to wind up with the really negative effects of the deeply unpopular.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:04.495)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:15.003)
There's no
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:22.23)
kids because I had plenty of friends and that wasn't the issue. But I think New York was extremely good for me. first going to college and understanding college, there's no popularity. mean, there's almost more wealth stratification at UVA. there was some sororities I was never going to get into because I wasn't an old deep south, old money family. But whatever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:47.963)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:51.842)
But you know, it's just like finding, whenever you're in a bigger community, there's more people you can find and there's just less direct comparison. So there's, I think actually that's probably a curvilinear thing too. When it's a really small community, you don't have that problem. But then when it's like big like my high school, but not big enough like a college, you're gonna see that stratification start. And then when it gets even bigger, you can't see the stratification as much.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:13.531)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:20.822)
And then when it gets really big like New York, you sort of see it. You know that there are elites, but you don't, they're not next to you. They're not sitting at the cafeteria table next to you unless you're Kibbe and you go to school with Alexandra Teddario.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:33.882)
I'm good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:43.009)
Yeah, I mean...
It's just, it is so interesting to hear how much this sits with you. how this, yeah, this like really shaped your identity. It's interesting. I'm trying to think about like, how much did it actually shape my identity? I was more mostly sucked into a relationship in high school. So I, all my focus was in that. We were like a tumultuous high conflict couple and we would fight all the time. So my thoughts were.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:03.352)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:13.96)
more about that. didn't really, and we were in a bigger like friend group, but I didn't really care.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:18.402)
This was before the psychopathic dude?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:20.697)
No, that's one. Yeah, so a little bit. Yeah, I had mostly boyfriends. So I think I didn't really focus on the social status thing. I was mostly focused on my relationships, I think.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:22.473)
Okay, did you date in college too?
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:36.664)
Did you care about their status? Your boyfriend's status?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:40.983)
No, but I cared about winning one person over. So maybe you cared about winning a group of people over, but I cared about getting that guy's attention. Whoever my crush was, I wanted him and I wanted him to notice me. I didn't care what status or, you know, all the other people around me, but I cared about that one boy.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:51.469)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (44:00.226)
The last time I had truly pure and good taste in men was in fifth grade. Shout out to Patrick Cushing. He knows this, but I had the biggest crush on him for like one to two years. And I liked him because he was smart and I thought he was cute and he wore this really cute yellow jacket. And then after that, all I cared about was status. So, I will say like extracurriculars are huge too. I mean, I, I,
I was obsessed with college, getting into the best college, also status. And I got a brochure in the mail that was like, hey, join us at Princeton or Stanford or Harvard or whatever the fuck, and for a politics summer camp. I had no interest in politics, but I saw Ivy Leagues, right? So I signed up instantaneously. And I went, and it was like the best summer of my life. And I met all of these other Ivy-bound kids, and we talked about politics and philosophy. And then I came back to my school and I started a chapter.
We as a chapter, we had like conventions with other chapters in Ohio and stuff. So I was, I was popular there. So I was able to have this parallel experience where I was really accepted and like desired and that really helped. So, I mean, I think like if your kid is on the nerdier side, like have them join robotics club, they might be the cool kid in the room then, or at least, you know, accepted with like minded peers.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:11.899)
Hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:27.323)
Yeah, I would agree. And also, I also think that, like, we don't know what this means in terms of parenting, because, like, you could assume that maybe, maybe the popularity in high school is just a reflection of your social, you know, like, your attachment stuff, right? Like, if you're a little weird or detached or aggressive when you're a kid and people don't really like you, then, or, like, some people who are on the spectrum or something who have a hard time with...
connecting to others, right? They were like higher rates of being bullied. And then, so they might have mental health issues in the future, who knew, like chicken or the egg, right? But also like, I wonder if you have like a stable family life of parents who you know who love you, right? Then they're...
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:57.464)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:08.204)
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:24.603)
that secondary attachment might not need to matter as much, right? Like you can kind of be weird, you know, you could be sad, but if you come home to parents who like are there for you and really see you, I think that probably would carry stronger over what the kids do.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:40.396)
Yeah, I mean a thousand percent. I also think though that having really loving parents is going to make it infinitely more likely that you are a likable kid because you're going to be able to form stable relationships and have a high enough self-esteem to present well. But yeah, mean, you know, yeah, for, if a kid would like, has autism or something and just genuinely has like a social deficit, then I, I don't even know if they would care about status in the same way.
I don't know, like, it would be interesting to see what kinds of people care about status and which don't. Because, again, I wasn't rewarded by my parents for popularity. I was for beauty, but it's not like they cared when I went through puberty. I mean, that was all about attraction for men.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:13.369)
I know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:25.817)
I was way more interested in academic success. No surprise there, right? Like being, the highest marks and stuff like that and the best grades. well, this life is intense.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:28.814)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:34.796)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:41.335)
Right? It's like, I'm like looking super blown out now. My lights are bizarre. What was I saying?
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:49.858)
you were more interested in academics.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:52.099)
I cut. Yeah, I think I would, and I would encourage my kids to have that attitude towards popularity. It's like, enjoy the people that you click with and have like, who are like good people who are into what you're into and like support you then like fight for popularity. Like I would try to teach Jackson that of like focus on the people who are like, you know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:15.022)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:21.211)
what you really care about.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:22.678)
Yeah, yeah, I mean I again like I mean my my brothers would always say like high school popularity does not matter especially in West Virginia Especially if you have money in West Virginia, I this is sort of sad thing to say but like my life plan always involved Surpassing most of my peers because most people are gonna be stuck in West Virginia Whereas my family had the money to launch me into it, you know an out-of-state college and beyond so you know looking back on my the popular kids now like
they're not doing so hot. And I'm no longer super proud of that. I'd like it if people were just successful. I have no beef with them anymore. But that was just reality. Your situation was totally different. I mean, it just sounds like you didn't necessarily need that anyway. But I mean, when I gave up on the popular thing, that was just after my first year in high school. Like I did not keep pursuing that. I think I wanted some carnations at Valentine's Day still, but I like, I became
One thing I'll say about myself, and I've always been like this, is that I would never not be friends with somebody because they weren't popular. At least I don't think that's true. I was friends with people all across the spectrum. And I just leaned much more heavily into genuine friendships and then was genuinely sort of happy. And got into parties and pursued JSA, the politics club, and everything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:28.475)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:43.515)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:50.602)
I also want to instill that in my kids. But like, I think it's so, I really think for me the big thing was that I was discovering who I was and I was getting information that I could not make it onto the highest rungs of anything. And that was like the real problem for me. And so I think with, my kids, it's gonna be like a, you really have to believe me that you are not done developing. And that.
One context is not going to give you very much information about who you're going to be in other contexts. like, please have patience. Let's get you into other contexts. I'm going to go in hard with my kids because I'm so worried about the asociality of today's teens. But yeah, I'm going to be setting up play dates out the wazoo.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:25.755)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:37.467)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what would you say are different ways that people who are not popular in high school, and it still haunts them, it still affects them, like no matter what, they might have good friends, they might have a good life, but they just can't shake the feeling that they're not cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:55.798)
You answer first. Do you have thoughts?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:00.147)
yeah, I mean, I guess you could rewrite the narrative, right? Like as we were saying that it matters how you see that past, right? Like maybe when you look back on the past and you focus on the times that, you you weren't top eight on MySpace. Like your mind might fixate on those details, but then you might want to remember things like what were things that you did that you were proud of?
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:09.336)
Bye.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:20.109)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:29.371)
When did you have the best time? When were you laughing so hard that you your friends couldn't stop? What did people like you for that did like you? And are those, you know, always the easiest one is, are those popular kids still popular or did they peak in high school?
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:29.474)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:35.361)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:46.806)
I know. Well, I mean, I actually think that the research today is kind of helpful in this. It's like when we think about who's the most popular, they're not the most popular because, not even because they're the best looking or because they're the nicest or the most interesting or the smartest or anything like that. It is because they are, they have higher levels of powerful and forceful behaviors. You know? So like that's not,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:11.717)
Mm. Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:16.662)
necessarily a good thing. I mean, it can be adaptive in certain contexts, but you know, also high popularity is a huge, like, it's highly associated with like risky behaviors, which makes sense, you know, like really popular kids are giving each other blowjobs and doing cocaine at like the age of 15.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:26.597)
huh.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:35.429)
Do you know that in New York, at these bar and bat mitzvahs, these parties that we used to go to when were like, when kids turned 13, kids are like giving each other blowjobs in the middle of like a dance floor.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:47.384)
no.
Jacqueline Trumbull (52:53.196)
Well, I mean, that is very impressive about the dance floor. I haven't even seen that in adulthood, but...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:57.591)
well, there might be a chair involved. But what I'm saying is, 13-year-old kids giving each other BJs in public? God, my stars. We would never do that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:00.494)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:04.95)
Yeah, I mean, that's crazy. But I grew up in West Virginia. I remember in the fifth grade, kids were caught doing drugs in the bathroom. I mean, was all sorts of shit. Yeah. A lot of teen pregnancy and stuff.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:15.451)
Oh my god. I don't want the kiss to go that far. But yeah. What else do you do if you were not cool and you're like, well, I always feel not cool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:29.186)
Yeah, well yeah, mean, again, like, maybe the reason you weren't popular in high school was because you actually had really good traits that just aren't, they don't have mass market appeal. So like, if we think of...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:35.703)
No.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:49.398)
If we think of Proust, okay, the novelist, he has critical acclaim, but he does not have mass market appeal. Like the best, the best, the most, like the most smart, interesting, know, fascinating people are probably not gonna be wildly popular in high school. So it doesn't necessarily say something bad about you if you were not the most popular kid in high school.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:58.523)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:16.399)
Yeah, you're just prused. Yeah, I like that. I like that mantra. I like that's a good closing statement.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:18.882)
You're just proust, man. That's pretty dope, in fact. That's... Yeah. Yeah, mean, so like the people who were most popular in high school probably like... I mean, they might have... They probably had some combination of like a forcefulness, dominance, aggression, some pro-social behavior, and also just like they liked the popular shit. There was probably an element of unoriginality.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:45.795)
Mm-hmm. Mainstream, which is basic. So don't be basic. And then the other tip is go on national television.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:47.938)
Mainstream. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (54:53.422)
Go on national television move to New York Yeah, move to New York. my god, my cat is my cat found a fucking plastic bag sissy stop
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:56.795)
for being a cute girl.
Thank
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:05.455)
We should wrap up. I'm tired. Cut.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:11.854)
But I guess What I would say is if you do want us to have mass market appeal Go ahead and give us a five-star rating Okay, so yeah, okay so what else should we Tips tips tips is this tips for parents or tips for
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:23.557)
Wait, we haven't, that can't be the, wait, we haven't wrapped up our thought. We'll hold that one, that was a good one, I like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:34.533)
Tips.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:40.473)
Like you, if you're suffering from low self-esteem because you weren't popular. Cut.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:46.764)
Yeah, mean I think, okay, okay, so tips for if you are still suffering from low self-esteem because you weren't popular in high school. So yeah, I mean I would say like really try to reframe what popularity actually probably meant in high school.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:01.029)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:04.94)
I don't know, think a lot of this is just like we build scar tissue over that wound that keeps affecting us even when it's no longer appropriate, right? Like you may just be holding on to something just because it was a wound that formed early enough to cut you deep enough to build scar tissue. And so really working through that is possible. Like it really might be irrelevant at this point.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:23.013)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:29.691)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (56:33.102)
You could be somebody who has lots of friends, who has a partner, right? But the thing is, that like, I mean, I can say this about me, I've said it, right? Like I...
Lost confidence around certain people because I had beliefs about my likeability or Desirability around those people and that might be the very thing that's keeping you stuck in this wound is your own belief your own limiting beliefs about yourself and like what kinds of people could possibly like you or What fashion you could possibly wear that was another thing like I never felt like I could pull off cool girl fashion For whatever fucking reason So
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:59.453)
you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:03.611)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:08.63)
You know, try, I mean, my advice is always to just like get disconfirming evidence. Try new things. Like invest, invest in your look. Like put, you know, get the blowout, get the makeup done. Like buy the clothes you really want to buy and just.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:17.947)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:28.096)
try it out for a while, like see what fits, but also see what you feel like natural in and not because you're limiting yourself, not because you have negative beliefs and think you need to wear like a baggy t-shirt or nothing, you but because like, this feels authentically me. Like what is going to make you confident? So I mean, I would say invest in confidence.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:46.615)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. How we would say with our clients is if you were confident or you were feeling self-assured or whatever, what would you be doing differently? Right? And then just act that way. Like, fake it till you make it. And then get on TV.
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:58.254)
Good.
Yeah. Yeah, and then go on TV. And then be unpopular on TV, but still more popular than like most people that you went to high school with.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:10.651)
or make a monkey meme that has now gotten nine million views. Cool of mind, looking up on Instagram. It's like regular posts about mental health and relationships and one monkey meme I made that got nine million views.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:13.804)
Ugh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:17.506)
Damn, that's amazing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:32.088)
So I think what we're saying is keep chasing the dragon, like keep going for popularity.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:35.087)
Yeah, fine, you can be popular. That's how you can heal the problems of being unpopular.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:41.102)
yeah, mean, I, you know, take pride in whatever makes you unusual. I mean, I do feel like I've at least gotten there.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:56.931)
Yeah, mean, self-esteem is really how we understand, you know, a lifetime of interactions with people. Like, who are we compared to, like, in relation to others? And you can focus on the bad stuff, or you can focus on the whole picture, or you can focus on the good stuff. And so, yeah, just asking yourself, I might not have been popular, but what was I proud of? what did I like about me as a kid?
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:15.938)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:26.772)
Right. Right. Maybe you were too busy studying to be fucking popular, you know? Maybe...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:27.035)
No?
business.
was studying, I was playing video games, I was, I don't even know, I was not cool, was squarely not cool, and I think I didn't care. I think I enjoyed being a dork.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:43.138)
Yeah, I mean that, I'm interested in that.
What is that like? What is that like?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:50.811)
It's really fun, you play a lot of Zelda.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:54.627)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:55.555)
I one or two couple best friends. Everyone's fussing over what they wear. I've been wearing the same thing since I was at like leggings and a baggy t-shirt. That's what I wear all the time. Huh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:06.542)
I mean, realistically speaking, if we look at a person who's 30 years old and if they weren't cool in high school but they've got friends now, like, it's like they're holding themselves to the standard of when they were definitely at their least cool because every high school student is at their least cool in their entire lifespan. I mean, maybe some people, I guess that's not true, the people who are really popular and then take a nosedive, this doesn't apply to them. But in general, people who are...
have a basic level of flourishing now. When they were in high school, they were actually kind of a loser, right? They had an adolescent sense of humor. They thought really dumb shit was funny. That wasn't, you know, they were trying to fit in and all over the place. that's what you're blaming yourself for not being successful in. And the people who didn't like you, like that's what we're concerned about. Like those people who now follow their, you know, follow their trajectory and they're probably not cool.
That's what you're holding onto versus today when you have people who love you and value you and will fly to Portugal when you're not even getting married to support you and all of that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:19.653)
Good reframe.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:20.846)
Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, I didn't mean any of that stuff I said. So if you would like to make us have, what did I, what was it that I said? Mass market. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:23.866)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:36.364)
Mass market appeal. Yeah, if you want to have mass market appeal.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:41.92)
So I didn't actually mean any of that stuff I said, and I do want to be popular. So if you want to give us mass market appeal, feel free to give us a five star rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify, and we'll see you next week. Okay.
