Ep. 134 - Your Brain on Extremes: How All-or-Nothing Thinking Affects Mental Health
We all know those moments—when everything feels either perfect or disastrous, when someone is either completely trustworthy or utterly toxic. "All-or-nothing," "black-and-white," or dichotomous thinking, shapes our relationships, political views, and self-perception in profound ways. But where does this all-or-nothing approach come from, and why is it so hard to escape?
In this episode, we dive deep into the surprising evolutionary purpose behind rigid thinking patterns. Far from simply being a cognitive flaw, black and white thinking often emerges as a survival mechanism for those who've experienced trauma or instability. The problem arises when we carry these protective patterns into everyday life, relationships, and social media interactions where complexity is essential.
We explore how dichotomous thinking manifests differently across various conditions—from personality disorders where it permeates every interaction to PTSD where it might remain confined to specific triggers. We share personal examples, research findings, and practical strategies for recognizing when you've fallen into extreme thinking. Then, we outline the evidence-based strategies for breaking free of the extremes of dichotomous thinking.
Whether you're dealing with a loved one who sees the world in absolutes or noticing this pattern in yourself, we understand why our brains crave certainty and how embracing the gray areas might be the key to deeper connections and better mental health. We offer both compassion for why we develop these patterns and concrete tools for finding your way back to nuance.
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Jacqueline Trumbull (00:01.4)
Hey guys, today we've got a topic that I'm pretty excited about. It's not something I necessarily hear in a lot of podcasts, but it is infecting our society. So, seems relevant. The topic is black and white thinking, otherwise known as like all or nothing thinking or dichotomous thinking. And it is associated more so with certain disorders, but it also seems to be associated with being on social media. So, I think we've got a lot to talk about.
Kibby how can you help with black and white thinking?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:32.717)
Yeah. Yeah, so in KulaMind we say this all the time, but we are supporting people who have loved ones with mental illness, especially ones that are emotionally challenging, like with substance use, alcoholism, personality disorders, or just have like anger issues. And I feel like we're going to talk more about this in this episode, but especially people who have a lot of black and white thinking, like really extreme loved ones.
really struggle. Like it's really, really hard for loved ones when there's a lot of this dichotomous, like all or nothing extreme thinking going on. So if you are struggling with this with your loved one or with yourself, you could reach out and see how we can help. You could find us on kulamind.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com. And we do one-on-one coaching. We have personalized resources and skills that we've learned from, you know.
our many, years of doing therapy and also a community. So there's different ways that we support you through this.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:38.466)
Which is good, because black and white thinking drives me bananas. It is sort of antithetical to how, I don't know, to me. I always got in trouble with Bachelor Nation or whatever for being too like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:42.519)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:49.795)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:56.59)
forgiving or is too new. I think that I could maybe even be helped by being slightly more black and white sometimes, because I can tend to be kind of an apologist or just a forever devil's advocate. I'm always trying to find the other side. can we actually flesh this out? And that also irritates people. But.
What can you kind of tell us about why black and white? Well, first of all, do we need to describe it? mean, does this seem like a confusing term? Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:29.805)
Yeah, let's describe it. Different ways it shows up.
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:33.846)
Yeah, okay, you do it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:39.225)
Okay. Yeah, I mean, was also, mean, both of us really hate black and white or all nothing thinking. Let's call it dichotomous, because I feel like black and white lately has been, it puts a little bit more of like a racial spin on it and people find that offensive, like good and bad black and white, right? And I only know that because I have a friend who is gonna do a movie about
Jacqueline Trumbull (02:54.359)
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:08.173)
like a black cat on one of the major networks and they had scrapped the project because they were, you know, painting the black cat as bad. And so they were like, okay, we can't do like black is bad and white is good anymore. so.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:22.978)
This is stupid. That is going to be my one block away remark for the podcast.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:26.841)
Well, it creates associations of like, black is bad, right? And white is good, which, you know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (03:32.014)
Except that black and white thinking doesn't refer to good versus bad thinking. It just refers to opposite like extremes. Yeah, but whatever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:39.584)
Extremes, Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that the way it shows up typically, it's called a cognitive distortion, meaning that it's a way, it's a pattern of thinking that is not helpful and usually leads to a lot of anxiety, depression, and other mental health issues. And you could think of it as extreme thinking, like everything is all good or everything is all bad. This person is toxic or they're the best and they're the one and they're everything.
I'm worthy, I'm amazing, everyone loves me, or I'm worthless. There's never gonna be good things in the future or the future is bright, right? So these really extreme negative, positive, zero nothing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (04:23.048)
It can be negative and positive, or it can just be, it can just strip all nuance and complication from the topic. Like for instance, you know, or know someone who is kind of like, unless you love me the way I want to be loved, then you don't love me. Unless you agree that you'll never leave me, then that's not love. And that's not good versus bad, but it's very like rigid, this or that. Yeah, all or nothing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:51.545)
It is, but the more I did a little bit of digging into this in the literature, the more it's, first of all, it's in the psychodynamic literature is called like a primitive defense, right? It's almost like, which is another way of saying this is a very immature base, not evolved way of dealing with hardship. And it boxes everything into two extremes, right? There's two categories. There's no gray area. There's no, as you're saying, nuance and complexity.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:03.822)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (05:21.294)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:21.477)
It could only hold one thing at a time, right? It's either white or black, good or bad, know. Liberal or conservative, right? But I think where it evolved is it could be adaptive in helping us have a very easy shortcut that makes things very simple and very efficient and fast, right? Instead of having to be like, is this person
a good partner, they have good qualities and bad qualities, they care about them, but also things that are really hard about a relationship. It's like, no, this person's toxic, get them out of my life. It makes it very easy to know what to do, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:03.01)
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's cool. It's associated with cluster B. We know it's a major aspect of BPD, but I think the research you were doing earlier today is really interesting in explaining why this evolves in certain kinds of people. Do you want to kind of go into why that might be associated with cluster B?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:30.017)
Yeah, I was actually surprised because we've always learned dichotomous thinking is something that we work on in cognitive behavioral therapy, especially for people who are depressed or anxious, right? Like something's going to be dangerous. I always fail. I'm always hated and rejected, right? So then you kind of get this like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (06:40.952)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:55.161)
like intense emotional response of anxiety or feeling depressed because it's like everything is hopeless, right? There's no possibility, there's no gray area, there's no like window into something else. It's just all bad. So I was actually surprised when the research shows that dichotomous thinking is really connected to cluster B traits or what they call the dark triad, which is basically like psych.
psychopathic and those dark malignant narcissistic traits that we think are bad. But the interesting thing is that dichotomous thinking is connected to the adaptive forms of that, like ones that are able to manipulate and get ahead in different ways and survive. And I was like, that's weird. Why would a primitive defense, why would something that is not helpful actually be
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:29.475)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (07:45.815)
I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:51.524)
helpful or connected to other helpful traits. And the literature is describing that, yeah, dichotomous thinking along with a lot of other cognitive distortions is a survival mechanism. So people who have these personality disorders or severe trauma have really difficult backgrounds where it was really hard for them to survive. And in order to do that, you have to develop pretty hard and fast rules for how to survive, right?
I have to screw over everyone in order to get ahead. These people are bad and my people are good. You know, like, just very like clear-cut definitions that guide your behavior in order to survive. So it's interesting to think about how dichotomous thinking is a survival mechanism. It gets in the way of relationships and your own mental health, but maybe helps you through like a traumatic environment.
Jacqueline Trumbull (08:47.566)
Yeah, I mean my mind is going in a couple different directions. One is we've been talking about emotional immaturity and this is kind of making me feel like... I mean, it's not as though people with black and white thinking haven't developed. They just developed in a maladaptive environment. So it's not as though black and white thinking is always bad. It's just that in normal society, it's not...
as adaptive. And so is that like, is that like immaturity? Or when we talk about immaturity versus maturity, are we talking about people just had to grow, like adapt into a maladaptive society and then they never got to...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:39.342)
Yeah, yeah, I would say that this, it is adaptive and helpful in very dangerous settings, right? If you have an abusive parent or family being like, they're all bad and I'm good, or I'm gonna assume that I'm all bad, right? There's just different ways to deal with a really dangerous situation, just clear cut fast rules of survival, what's good or what's bad and just don't.
Nuance and complexity slows us down, makes it hard to know what to do, right? We have to really think and take in all the data and all the information and ponder it and weigh what's the cost and benefit, right? When you're really deciding like, oh, is this partner someone I want to marry, for example, you have to actually take a lot of time to, you know,
gather all the information to make an informed decision. That's like a mature way of going about it. But if you are in a dangerous situation where this person is abusive, right, don't think about the new one, so take time to think about it. Get out of there. That person's bad. Get out. Danger. Bad. Right? So it just makes survival easier. But when people grow up in an environment like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (10:40.206)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:01.333)
normal society or adulthood where there is a of gray areas, then it might be maladaptive. It might be less helpful.
Jacqueline Trumbull (11:09.122)
Yeah, mean a really obvious place where this can show up is PTSD, but I think it's different than kind of a cluster B presentation, which is that the PTSD presentation I feel like is more about certain thoughts. The world is dangerous. Other people, like people are bad, people are cruel, I'm bad.
versus kind of a black and white filtration system, or dichotomous, sorry, filtration system, whereby everything is kind of filtered into rigid thinking. With PTSD, you're typically working with a couple of beliefs. And for instance, if you do prolonged exposure, you're typically countering the belief that the world is dangerous.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:40.387)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:47.629)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (12:02.926)
and the belief like I'm incompetent or I'm incapable and some other oriented beliefs. But I mean, for instance, like a cluster B presentation, I was sort of setting a limit with a friend recently and I, know, I...
I didn't say anything about, like, you ever do this again, then I will never speak to you again. But she responded with, what I'm hearing is that there's absolutely no room for mistake, and if I slip up, it's over. Am I correct? And I was kind of like, well, where did you get that exactly? That seems more like a kind of automatic, this is how I hear things and filter things. But I don't know if that's actually correct. What do you think?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:50.265)
How do you see the nuance in that versus, mean, I guess like the situation is that there were, you were having conversation where there were some elements where some things were particularly hard, right? I mean, do you wanna explain what the, you you don't have to go into the like details, you know what mean?
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:12.13)
there was just a behavior that I was like this is burning me out I can't like I can't go into this place with you anymore I can't like do this with you and I don't know that therefore if I can really be the kind of friend you need but that was kind of the gist and then the response was and I'm am I hearing you correctly that like there is no room for any error any slip up and it's not that that was necessarily untrue I just didn't see where she got that from the message and
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:27.341)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:40.355)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:41.814)
To me, that felt like a typical response from this person. Whereas somebody with PTSD, I don't know that that would necessarily be where they would go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:44.985)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:50.123)
What do mean? Like, why do you think trauma response would be different than that?
Jacqueline Trumbull (13:54.934)
I don't think it says, listen, I'm talking out of my ass here a little bit, we don't, in our training for PTSD, we don't necessarily talk about how, for instance, veterans just have dichotomous thinking all over the place. It's usually more like there can often be certain beliefs that are developed because PTSD is throwing you into a fight or flight stance kind of all the time, right? And so the beliefs are like, the world is dangerous. Look out.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:07.427)
Mm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:24.002)
You know, there might be some beliefs about the self that have become rigid, but I don't know that it necessarily would show up so consistently in things that aren't related to, for instance, safety.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:37.603)
Well, I think that's the difference between personality disorders and the way they think and the thinking that's involved that versus like a disorder like that, which is a little bit more circumscribed and contained to a situation, right? Like PTSD, except for like extreme pervasive complex situations, like it is a fear of that memory of that dangerous time. So anything that is connected to your risk, right?
Jacqueline Trumbull (14:43.47)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:07.543)
hearing something, being in contact, encountering situations that bring up that memory when you were traumatized, then that's when the black and white thinking, the kind of like all or nothing responses come up, right? Because then it's like, shut it out. I don't wanna think about it, I'm just gonna think emotionally, right? But with personality disorders, the idea is that these kind of disordered
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:29.154)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:36.0)
ways of thinking are everywhere, right? It affects the way they feel about themselves and other people and the world and all different situations, right? So when you were saying that your friend was like, wait, if I slip up, all over. That's an example of dichotomous thinking because it sounds like a shame response, right? It sounds like, okay, if,
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:38.307)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (15:52.622)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:05.785)
I heard that, well actually that might not be worth it, I tend to fall into like, ah, I'm terrible. But let's say a healthy person who's mature and has a nice nuanced way of seeing, an integrated mature way of seeing themselves would say, oh my gosh, that hurt so badly. What did I do wrong? What went wrong? What are they going through? What's up? But I...
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:07.138)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:16.407)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (16:29.08)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:34.765)
We were good friends before, right? Or maybe we can be friends again if I make up for it. So a healthy way of thinking is like, everything is not all good or all bad. I'm not all good or all bad, but maybe I did something bad. Maybe I'm bad in this moment in time, and maybe I messed up, and that's why she's rejecting me or pulling away. But someone who has more dichotomous thinking will be like, one drop of bad means all bad.
she's upset because of one conversation, she won't like, okay, that means any speck of badness means we are done. It is over, right? Very extreme.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:14.414)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, I think...
It's just an interesting, because I'm thinking about like OCD also deals with lot of virginity and some black and white thinking. But again, I don't know if that would show up as interpersonally as it would, because like you're saying is that personality disorders are pervasive and persistent. And so I can see different people having loved ones who demonstrate black and white thinking, but it coming up as a problem in really different ways. Like with somebody with a personality disorder, it could be more of like a... Your core beliefs...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:29.187)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (17:52.65)
are incompatible with the way I see the world and we keep hitting up against them and they're not adjusting. And so I can't make my way through them or around them or anything versus somebody with like OCD, you might be encountering like a specific kind of area where the black, where the dot com is thinking shows up and that's causing all sorts of problems, but you can still kind of have.
conversation with them that's on the same footing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:24.601)
Yeah. Yeah. For example, mean, my husband is going to kill me when he hears I'm talking about this publicly, but because he's so embarrassed about it, but it's so funny because I don't know. Yeah, I don't care. This is very funny to me. So he has more of a perfectionist, like OCD type brain. Right. And I and perfectionism is a form of dichotomous thinking. It's perfect or it's terrible and worthless.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:35.822)
close.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:53.965)
Right, it's not like me, I'm like, meh, it's fine. There's no meh, fine in dichotomous thinking. It's just like, good or bad. Poor guy is usually on a hunt for some piece of clothing that's like perfectly fitting. I don't even know how that idea, there's no clothes, anyway. I will watch this poor guy put on a piece of clothing that he was like, ugh.
Jacqueline Trumbull (18:56.471)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:18.967)
I picked it out, I really researched, it's customized or whatever. And then I'll see a moment of relief and joy, like, I like this. And then I'll watch him. Over the course of a couple minutes, he'll start to move around, adjust the sleeves, look at himself in the mirror, and then I'll watch his face fall.
It's like, it looks like a fall from grace. It's like, I thought I found perfection and I didn't. And then he looks so sad because you'll be like, oh, this seam is a little bit too long. It doesn't work. Right? All or nothing. It doesn't work. And luckily, since he doesn't have a personality disorder that doesn't extend to all parts of his life, it's just weirdly about clothes and...
Jacqueline Trumbull (19:59.33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:12.345)
Probably other things that he's not telling me because so ashamed hahaha But he you know I can make mistakes our son can make mistakes things could not go great And he could be sad about it, but not like well time to divorce now Right then that would be more of a personality disorder response if he's just like you're not perfect fine. Goodbye garbage
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:24.461)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:31.886)
Is he able to see that what he's doing is crazy?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:37.907)
like in some way, enough that he knows to act ashamed or like to be ashamed in front of me, even though like, you know, it's more painful for him to show it to me that I like, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm super glad that this is the problem. It's like he can't find clothes that doesn't fit him well. It's like, I don't know. Anyway, but he knows that's part of the OCD.
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:44.91)
You
Jacqueline Trumbull (20:50.964)
I mean, it's very endearing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:06.211)
thing though, like OCD tends to have good insight and also non-personalities sort of feel like you can have insight, right? Like even when I'm in a bad mood, I could tend to this where if I, this happens to me all the time, this is a terrible habit. I go on LinkedIn. That's my, there's certain social media platforms that really trigger at people's insecurities, right? If you're really into the way you look, Instagram is a hotbed. If you're,
I don't even know what TikTok is all about. But if you are into your professional identity, LinkedIn is just, it's not good. So I go on, I feel good about myself. I'm like, you know what? I'm doing well in my life. I'm working hard. I'm doing things I enjoy. And then I look at LinkedIn and I see all the different posts that are like, thrilled to announce this new promotion or raising this money or this accomplishment. And I...
Collapse into I'm a failure. I'm an idiot. I can't believe that I thought that I was making any progress Because clearly I'm wrong clearly I'm like a fool like there's no like I'll get there Kibby You've done some good things, but maybe you do want to aspire to the things that you're looking for No, the envy just takes over into crushing self-doubt. I don't know why I got on this topic. This is that's my that's my
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:08.878)
Sure. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:33.357)
Sorry, one second.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:35.961)
Disordered thinking, sure.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:42.572)
Hey.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:45.721)
I should have washed my hair. It's fine. But I look like a grease ball.
Jacqueline Trumbull (22:51.79)
Why did it suddenly get so dark?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:53.209)
It's okay. It looks good. Yours looks good. You have like a nice like golden hue.
So yeah, cut. So yeah, I mean, I feel like I, that's my area of disordered thinking. I forgot even what the question was, why I even brought that up. Do you remember?
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:10.69)
Well, it sounds like you have sort of episodic rigid thinking, which isn't surprising because emotional states are going to throw us into rigid thinking.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:15.993)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:21.303)
And insight, when you're saying insight, right? I think at least I've had enough therapy and skills and training to be like, Kibby you're not all worthless. In fact, you're being crazy right now. Don't go on LinkedIn. That's all lies. There's like an insight, there's a meta awareness somewhere that's saying that my all or nothing thinking.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:23.618)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:42.157)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:49.946)
is not accurate. But it's just a feeling that it is. So a lot of this is emotionally driven, right? It's just, it's when emotions come up, as we know, it really narrows your attention because it's really about like surviving and meeting a need, right? And so you really have to, your mind kind of, you know, when the amygdala gets fired up, when the prefrontal cortex shuts down, you really are just no longer waiting in the
Jacqueline Trumbull (23:53.016)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:19.895)
in the waters of nuance, you're just like, nope, this is all bad.
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:23.854)
Yep. Yeah, so I think for everybody there is a normal level of dichotomistic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:33.305)
What's that, your cat?
Jacqueline Trumbull (24:34.786)
the doorbell. This at least is a doorbell ringing situation but so many of times we just get like random fuzzers. Amazon delivered a package at 430 in the morning one day. I was like, I know, I was like can you just leave it outside my door? I'm not opening my door for you because I didn't believe that they were Amazon but I got an Amazon delivery notification at 430 in the morning. I know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:46.169)
really?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:50.329)
That's crazy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:58.915)
That's crazy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:03.98)
Thank you.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:06.87)
Anyway, so yeah, I there's gonna be some level of kind of emotion mind dichotomous thinking because when your emotions are in control, they're gonna tell you a very particular story. And that's normal. Personality disorder is more persistent, more of a worldview, and that can be really difficult if that is what you're in relation to to find common ground on.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:29.305)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (25:32.034)
Because there can be a lot of attributions of, like if you have a loved one with BPD for instance, there can be a lot of behavioral attributions they make about you based off of their rigid worldview, and it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not what's going on. But I can't make you see that because everything I'm saying kind of slips in the cracks between your dichotomous thinking.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:51.565)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (25:55.946)
Yeah. Yeah, I think with personality disorders and some other people with low insight, they're just fitting information and what they see in the world and what's happening into their, the way they're seeing it, which is extremes, right? It's not like, you know, today's a hard day and tomorrow will be better. It's like, no, all the evidence points to this is terrible. All right, they just fit.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:23.96)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:25.635)
things into their lens, which is either zero or one, all or nothing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:27.566)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (26:31.084)
Yeah, yeah. So we were talking about the kind of environmental development of black and white thinking slash dichotomous thinking, where kind of an unstable chaotic environment can propel this sort of development. And I'm thinking about like, why in today's world where, you know, poverty is down, education is up, literacy is up, mortality is down?
we're actually flying, you're bringing that face at me, but like the major metrics of like flourishing have been going up for decades. But at least if we look on social media, I mean, it seems like people are living in a war zone. And that might be because, I don't know if that's because our perception of the world is that it's a war zone or if it's because social media actually is a war zone.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:16.522)
my God.
I am.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:27.769)
don't know what's going on. I have now so much more respect for you and compassion for you, not that I did before. But I'm brushing up against this. Okay, so I was inspired to do this podcast because I put up a post that I didn't mean for it to be political, which is so stupid of me. But I wrote, I basically wrote verbatim what I've heard from a couple of people.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:34.422)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:49.134)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (27:57.421)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:57.568)
I didn't really want to put judgment on it, I was describing a situation that a couple of people I know, like couple of clients and friends have mentioned that their husbands are struggling with depression in this really particular way that they are getting, maybe they've lost their job or they had some other kind of career upset or something going on. They get depressed, they get withdrawn, they start to use substances and drink more.
and they start to lash out in anger and then they start going down alt-right YouTube channels or like content. Okay, I said the word alt-right because that's what my friends used and this is coming from conservative and liberal families. So I didn't really think much of it, I just put it on the post. And I talked about things in the caption that we've talked about here where men are struggling and they don't really have good outlets for their emotions.
Jacqueline Trumbull (28:33.388)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:56.397)
So what do we do about it? Now I put in the, write YouTube channel, it was like, this is an outlet where people are finding, where men are finding solace and a sense of empowerment. Well, if you guys look on the Instagram KulaMind my God, the comments are appalling, okay? So I just got roasted. It was just like a conservative, like roasting of Kibby
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:11.788)
I'm looking up right now.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:25.763)
They were saying things like, well, I would drink too if my wife looked like you. I mean, there was a lot about, it was interesting. There was that dichotomous thinking with men and women, as well as the political divide. It's like, well, this is the problem with society. liberal nuts, radical leftists, think that that's the only solution, where there's a lot of good stuff in conservative, you don't know anything, shut up, you're an idiot.
Jacqueline Trumbull (29:40.45)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:54.82)
like what? I honestly used that alt-right term just because my Republican friend used it. Like I didn't know that I was stepping into this, but I was just surprised by how even if you mention, right, like a nuance, and I even try to say, and this is not a political thing, this is just like a trend, suddenly it becomes I'm a liberal radical and I'm an idiot and I don't know anything and I think that conservatism is bad. I was like, whoa.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:09.279)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:24.544)
It's interesting, here's one, and this comes up constantly, here's one comment. Leftists are desperate. Shitposting about alt-right, which is in reality a very small group of extremists that are not part of the MAGA movement. Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:24.686)
You know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (30:37.568)
But you didn't say that it was a problem that their husbands were becoming Republicans. You said they were going down alt-right, which it seemed like he's agreeing could be a problem. So people are like, that's a derogatory term. It's like, I mean, first of all, they're all coming about like libtards and everything. I they're all using like derogatory terms for liberals, but.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:00.225)
And women, my God, there was one comment that said, strippers and therapists are all the same. Take away the money and they're gone. And my first response was like, isn't that all jobs? Anyway, so every part of what I am was bad. And there's also the same attitude with men and women, like don't listen to this woman idiot say what it takes to be a man. I was like, whoa, I wasn't even claiming that. I was claiming that
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:15.49)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:29.773)
these husbands have been doing this thing and it's so sad and what can the wives do to support them and what can the men do to heal? I mean, I was a fool.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:38.894)
My favorite comments are the ones that assume that you're actually talking about your own husband, which is just such a hilarious thing for anybody to do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:44.377)
Yeah, they're like, it's like it's because you're not putting out. was like, OK.
Jacqueline Trumbull (31:50.9)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:04.685)
Yeah, it's
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:04.878)
It's amazing, know, because there's no acknowledgement. mean, they say that alt-right is a derogatory term on the one hand, but then they're trying to say that really you're just talking about Republicans in the next, and then they're like, yeah, there's bad things on the left side too. I'm like, yeah, fuck, I'd love a post on why some people go into the alt-left rabbit holes, because I don't like them either. I mean, it's like...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:29.175)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:31.854)
Coming at you with so much vitriol and trying to tear you down make you feel stupid, you know There's nothing constructive. I mean there are a couple like semi constructive comments or criticisms, but it's just like And then we're supposed to we're supposed to be like, oh you're right being a Republican is a good thing. I mean, it's like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:48.152)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (32:56.674)
This is what always amazes me about social media, you know? It's like people will try to drag you for your beliefs, but then they completely confirm your beliefs by being such dicks about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:06.167)
Yeah, yeah, then introducing nuance is not popular. Introducing gray areas or seeing the other side that we love to do is really not popular. I mean, I remember I did a post about, from our narcissistic parents episode about, think we were talking about like, narcissistic parents actually love their child? And I was thinking like, yeah, some.
And the way they express or they experience love or learned how to love is like not healthy, but they do love. my God, I got roasted for that too. They were like, this is poison. How can you say this on the internet? You are toxic. I was like, whoa. Every single person with narcissism is unable to love. That is all or nothing thinking. Narcissism equals zero love. That is extreme.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:03.596)
It's not only extreme, it's incredibly unhelpful and it's going to trap people into relationships with narcissists because if you believe that narcissists can't love and then you start dating a narcissist, what you'll discover is that they sure act like they can love and you'll get very confused and very tricked.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:10.169)
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:19.127)
or there's actually good parts of them, or they are trying, or they do love you. And just some of their behaviors are quote, quote, toxic. So you just want, everyone just wants like, let's give me the signs that this person is toxic. And when we do this character judgment, right? This all or nothing character judgment, that just makes one person all one thing. They are all liberal.
Jacqueline Trumbull (34:23.022)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:48.821)
all bad, they're all, you know, whatever. And they strip away any other piece. And I understand why, because if you were to say, hey, you know, maybe my narcissistic parent does love me and maybe I should keep trying and try to get them to like see me for who I am. It's like, actually, maybe it would be better if you just like, X'd it out, cut it out, just stop trying to find the nuance and clinging to that piece in a problematic way. So I understand how it really can.
maybe help you set those boundaries? Because some people can set boundaries if like, all right, it's bad, done.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:23.106)
I mean, this is...
Yeah. No, I mean, this is what I was noticing back, in 2018, but mostly from the left, which was a sudden reliance on rules. And it's weird because the left had always kind of been the party of no rules, right? Of like free love and, you know, be who you are and authenticity and yada, yada, yada. And to suddenly be like, what can we say and what can't we say?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:50.275)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (35:51.054)
Who do we call out? Who do we call in? Who do we cancel? It was just like, whoa. And if somebody said the wrong thing and they were painted as totally terrible. And of course, this is going on in the right too. Joe Biden is just completely terrible. Everything he's ever done is terrible. Now, of course, we do do that to Trump. So OK, that's a both sides problem.
You know, it's it's liberals are destroying religion and destroying women and destroying family and I mean, it's just like insanity But when do you want rules you want rules when you feel that when you feel feel instability? You're looking for more structure. You're looking for more order And so there's got to be some sense that we're living in some kind of chaos and I don't know if that's been because with all of this information coming from so many different
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:31.747)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:45.144)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (36:46.076)
I mean, it's not just news anymore, right? It's your neighbor. It's that random person down there, like whoever you follow, right? Whoever the algorithm pushes you. It's really hard to make sense of the world now because there's so much freaking information. It's all contradictory. And so, you know, if you can kind of like hold on to something solid, then maybe that's going to be comforting to you. But it's going to run you into a lot of problems.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:50.497)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:09.101)
Yeah, hold on one second. have to close the window. It's getting cold and dark.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:21.593)
I agree. think that
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:28.473)
To be on the other side of the dichotomous thinking is really painful because you have to hold the nuance. You have to hold the other information, right? Like when I get into arguments with my mom, for example, and she's like really upset and it's, you you're all bad, how can you do this to me? Like just all blanket bad, everything. I have to hold.
the full picture in my mind alone, right? Like there's some things I did that are good, some things are bad, you know, like I do care about you a lot and I show you in all these different ways and I'm doing something that is against what you want and so that feels painful, but then she'll be like, you don't love me at all, right? So you have to be like, wait, no, no, no, I have a gray area. I have like...
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:03.246)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:28.491)
evidence to the other side and the other person doesn't want to hear it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (38:32.13)
Yeah.
I mean, I think like the real danger in dichotomous thinking is that the world's not dichotomous. So in relationships certainly aren't, you know. So if you have somebody who's saying like, love me the way I want or else, or you don't love me at all, then the other person is in a huge pickle because that leaves no room for the other person's needs. And that leaves no like understanding of, know, sometimes I can't love you the way you want because I'm protecting myself. I don't have the time. I don't have the energy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:40.569)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (39:03.12)
I don't want to. I mean, I've got other things going on. My life is filled with all sorts of things and you're one of those pieces but you're not everything and that doesn't mean I don't love you. That doesn't mean I don't hold you in high regard. But if every time I don't get it right for you then you tell me that I don't love you or I'm not putting in effort.
I don't care, I'm a shitty person, I'm fill in the blank person, why would I stick around? Because there's just so many ways to fail all the time. And then in order to not fail, in order to keep the relationship going, the person with nuance has to bring the nuance as you're saying, and that takes a lot of effort too. That's a ton of work, and then it doesn't get through, and then you're just kind of like, ugh. Okay, well I see value in this person, but it's too exhausting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:55.322)
Yeah, it's really, it's what we were talking about, immature thinking. And I really am learning so much about immature thinking or emotion dysregulation, all that stuff by watching my two year old, who literally before this, he was like, I wanna watch a movie. And I was like, wow, we're so lucky that at your fingertips, you have Disney plus channel.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:23.406)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:23.445)
Me, I had those big VHSs and I had like four and like that's it. But you have the world of Disney at your fingertips. We could watch anything. Moana 2, let's give that a try. Maybe you'd like it. Maybe it fits this mood. No. I was even, even when I suggested Moana 2 instead of what he wants to watch Toy Story 2 over and over, he, wasn't like, mom.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:37.928)
You
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:51.065)
Hmm. Okay. Well, I get a movie, but it isn't the one I want. And that's okay. It was like, nah. Like you, you would have thought that he like the world ended, right? It's just all or nothing. It's either like he's, and then as soon as I turn on Toy Story 2, he's like, Oh, thanks mama. You know, so was just all or nothing. And, and when you grow up, have room for, you know, I'm disappointed.
Jacqueline Trumbull (40:56.193)
Right.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:13.346)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:20.25)
And I know that that emotion doesn't inform all of the information that's available here.
Jacqueline Trumbull (41:26.07)
Yeah, Yeah, I mean the ability to keep multiple perspectives in mind means that dichotomous thinking just can't work. We're just too complicated for that. And online, I don't know.
I mean, I guess economist thinking is a good way to have your worldview confirmed in certain ways, but you risk missing out on a lot of possibilities, a lot of friendships, and you risk, if you set a hard rule and then you encounter something that's nuanced, you're not going to understand that, like, that's a narcissist thing, right? Like, narcissists can't love. Okay, then when I see a narcissist, if they act like they love, then that's not a narcissist. Oops, I'm with a narcissist and it's three years down the road. I mean, it's like that
anything, right? Like, Republicans are all good. Okay, well now I'm with a Republican and he's a dick. What if this doesn't conform? Like, you can't have these rules and expect to succeed in life. And I mean, think with like, if you think of the PTSD type of situate black and white thinking where it's like the world is a fully dangerous place, you know, like, I've...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:26.958)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (42:38.934)
like worked with, you know, a black man who had like a lot of racial trauma. And it's really interesting when you're in that situation because when a black man says to you like, white people are dangerous, as a white person, can't be like, nah, they have been, he's right, you know, like he's at a higher risk. The problem is...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:54.915)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:01.184)
It's like if then he's got like health outcomes that are going down because of high stress and blood pressure and high cholesterol and then there's like heart problems and then, you know, he's like insulating or not comfortable at certain places where there might be white people. It's like, how's this belief going for you? Because on the one hand, it's protecting you from ever being hurt by a white person, but on the other hand, it's tearing down your life. And that's the kind of like, that's...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:24.633)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (43:28.898)
That's the kind of, I don't know, push and pull you have in PTSD. It might be like the world is a dangerous place. Well, like what if you live in the Bronx? Like maybe it is pretty dangerous. But how far are we gonna go with that rule? Because if you just adhere to that rule, you're never gonna leave your house.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:37.379)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:43.822)
Yeah, yeah. I think your example of trauma is really, really helpful because if I categorize everything with good and bad, I know what to do, it's very simple. And I really protect myself. If I'm like, all white people are bad, I'm gonna avoid them all. You're pretty much gonna 100 % protect yourself from the dangers of.
White people, maybe not, because racial oppression is insidious. but okay, let's say all nurses are bad, I'm never gonna date one. Well, then I'm never gonna be hurt by a narcissist because I'll never ever be in that situation. Whereas if I open myself up to like, some of them can love, some of them can change, then I'm probably increasing my chances of reaching danger, right? So it is simple just to cut it all out.
and say no, but you're cutting everything out. So when it comes to dating, mean, people know what this is like. If you are looking for anything that's a red flag, well, anything can be a red flag, and then you're just gonna cut out people because there's like a couple of things that you don't like about them.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:01.782)
Right, mean, nurses don't walk around with a giant ant on their forehead. So in order to avoid that, you have to avoid everything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:08.761)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:10.892)
And that, you know, it sucks. Like it, it, sucks when these people have been really, really hurt and they have every reason to want to avoid certain outcomes. And it's hard to tell them like, yeah, you should just probably Hakuna Matata it like you're going to be okay. You know, if you walk outside, like everything's going to be joke. It's going to be totally cool. Cause it's like, no, they've had an experience where it wasn't, they're not dumb. but then you see the PTSD destroying them from the inside.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:35.361)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:40.899)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (45:42.006)
And it just costs so much. yeah, so that's the trauma side of it. And I mean, a similar thing happens with OCD, right? The attempts to keep yourself safe through the ritual bury you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:50.702)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:56.43)
Yeah. Yeah, how, do you have any black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking anywhere? You are pretty flexible. You are, sometimes, yes, to a fault, too easy to find the nuance, which could leave you in a place where you accept probably more than you need to, but do you have, well.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:03.192)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:09.965)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:21.076)
I my body image stuff.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:26.54)
I mean, if you can... Sorry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:26.627)
Do you, but do you have moments where you go, do you, in that case, do you have all moments where you're like, I'm all bad? Or I look terrible or?
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:36.178)
I'll be like, my body's disgusting. And how could Jason truly be attracted to me? That kind of thing. I know, but good thing Lipo sucked all those thoughts away.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:38.295)
Okay, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:43.321)
No.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:50.103)
Yeah, just like Alex one day, or sorry, cut his name. Just like my husband one day will find that perfect shirt, almost perfect pair of pants, you know? It's out there. Just keep finding it.
Jacqueline Trumbull (46:58.286)
So what do we do about this? mean...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:03.833)
I don't know, Society, I don't know. feel like society, you know, it's interesting because it's just like, there's nothing that energizes people more than just black and white thinking, right? Like you can, it is very easy to control a group of people who are all or nothing, right? You can, oof, I'm like, do I want more engagement on Instagram? I will just mention alt-right. I'll just put a post of me and put alt-right and then watch as that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:21.72)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:33.69)
that post blows up, right? I mean, that's what the news does, both sides, but as a person. I think it's the same as what we do with any kind of disorder thinking. ask ourselves or that person, like, what is this costing you? How has this served you? This all or nothing thinking. But what does it cost you now? There's some situations where you might...
Jacqueline Trumbull (47:54.883)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:09.145)
I don't know.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:10.102)
You haven't said enough of this sentence to even know where you're going, so...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:12.247)
I know, I know, I know, cut this part, I'm trying to think of an example where it serves people.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:19.596)
No, you didn't. It serves people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:20.847)
how about this? Listen, I have some pretty all or nothing thinking around bungee jumping and I'm like, it's all bad, I'm not gonna do it. And it's gonna be pretty helpful for me to avoid having that rope snap underneath me plummet to my death, right? So it's helpful to avoid situations where it's really not worth it. I'll miss.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:27.693)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (48:38.969)
Mm-hmm.
Well, you'll miss out on the theoretical awesomeness of bungee jumping. I I agree with you, I'm never gonna do it, but... I mean, you said it in the beginning of the video. What? Yeah. Yeah, I do think bungee jumping looks horrible. Like, painful and nauseating and...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:50.617)
There are other ways to get that awesomeness, you know? You could do skydiving, you know?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:02.905)
When I went skydiving, the guys who did it who were like teachers who would just take us, take people up for like 20 jumps a day, they were like, oh, I would never go bungee jumping. Those people are crazy. I was like, oh, okay, I'm never gonna do it, right? Sure, yes, I am sacrificing the joy of leaping off a cliff tied by a rope, but I don't think that that joy is worth any risk.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:10.584)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:31.385)
of 1 % risk. I'm just like bungee jumping is all off the table. So you kind of weigh the cost, like your perfectionism. It's serving you in some ways to be motivated, but it's also costing you because people have to, I mean, the amount of shirts that my man has ordered over the past two years is astounding.
Jacqueline Trumbull (49:54.274)
He refuses to use my shopmly links, which really grinds my gears.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:01.175)
I mean, you didn't give him any reason that it would be benefiting him, but yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:06.158)
would be a nice thing to do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:08.045)
would. Yes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:10.126)
Um, we have black and white. I mean, we have rules and limitations all the time, right? Like a boundary, you could say that's like dichotomous thinking, but it didn't necessarily get there because of dichotomous thinking. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think you said at the beginning of the episode, like it serves people when they're in dangerous situations. So if I'm in Syria, I'm probably going to be fucking terrified and not go outside unless I'm like covered and
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:11.097)
You
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:22.446)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:27.641)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:33.998)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (50:39.946)
I'm going to be like, this is a dangerous place. This is not a safe place. I'm going to stay inside. And the cost will be that I miss out on seeing Syria, but the benefit will be that I don't put myself in any dangerous situations. That's not dumb, right? It's just when it generalizes then to a safer scenario.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:59.107)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like abuse, right? If someone, if there's domestic violence and someone goes, but I could see the nuance. I could see why he or she was in a really bad place and they have good sides, then it might, then it actually might serve you to be like, no, all physical violence against your partner is bad and should not ever happen again, right? So.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:15.555)
You done.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:26.146)
Yeah, this is where my... This is where my nuanced thinking gets me in trouble. Not with physical abuse, but with putting up with too much from other people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:33.955)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (51:35.054)
Okay, but if you want to work on your black and white thinking, well, first of all, DBT is very helpful if you, you know, if you have BPD or other disorders, probably not the right place for like OCD though. But one of the reasons is because it's dialectical. it's kind of underlying philosophy is how do we bring to seemingly opposing things and, and let them coexist. So it might be something
simple and I find myself doing this all the freaking time now as saying like I'm I'm angry with you and I miss you that would be a good like breakup instant right where people are like because I miss them it means they're amazing it means that I idealize them again they're all good it's like uh-uh you can miss someone you hate I mean cuz not all of you hates them
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:14.382)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:18.947)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:23.801)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:32.077)
Yeah, yeah, that trick is using the and instead of but use the and, right? So like, he loves me.
but he's a narcissist or like, he's a narcissist, but he loves me and he really cares about, right? The but will negate the first thing. So it only, it implies that you could only have one thing true. He's a narcissist, but he loves me means like the loves me is more important. But if you say, yeah, he's narcissistic, does things that really hurt me and he really cares about me, then it leaves room for both things to be true. The good and the bad can exist together.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:00.653)
Okay.
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:14.572)
Yeah, I think when looking at our feelings, there's this tendency to say, know, you're gonna, if you think of yourself as a cornucopia with a whole bunch of different things in it, and some of them are gonna be conflicting and contradictory, whatever, but if you could just put ands in between all of those things, then you're doing kind of dialectical thinking, right? I have, I'm trying to think of a good example.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:29.433)
you
Jacqueline Trumbull (53:43.302)
I have a body that has beautiful parts and parts I'm insecure about and people are attracted to me and some people aren't attracted to me and some days I love myself, some days I don't like myself, you know, just allowing all the contradictions.
to be there instead of, this person isn't attractive to me, isn't attractive to me, therefore I'm not attractive. I don't like my stomach, therefore I don't like my body.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:06.957)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:16.621)
Yeah, yeah, and I think you don't have to depend a decision or like set boundaries or make a decision based on all or nothing rule. For example, you don't have to be like, well, that person has to be toxic for me to cut them out of my life or say goodbye or not to put up with them.
Like you're waiting for that person to be all something, an evil person that you have to cut off. It's like, no, you could be like, there are many good things about this person. I could even care about them. had great times. Maybe in the future, things are going to be different. right now, you know, the behavior is not something that's healthy. And so I'm going to choose to leave. Right. So you could base decisions on taking in all the information still, and then making an informed decision there.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:05.25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:12.697)
instead of like, yes, no, swipe left or swipe right kind of rule.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:17.838)
Yeah. Yeah. Um, Republicans, they voted for what I think is a rapist and they might not think that he is and they love their families and they're very scared about what's happening to values they've cared a lot about and they see different solutions to the same problems. You know what I mean? there can be, it was like, this is how we find our common humanity.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:47.673)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (55:48.558)
and you don't categorize. And I think a good way to see if dichotomous thinking is a problem for you is to ask yourself if you're miserable, right? You're always gonna find the good side. With perfectionism, right? What's the good side about dichotomous thinking? Some of your work is really good.
The bad side is that you're miserable. So it's like, okay, my perfectionism. Sometimes it drives me to complete really good work. And a lot of the time, I feel anxious and not good enough and worthless. And sometimes I procrastinate so much that actually my work isn't as good because I'm so scared of making a mistake. So is it worth it?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:32.707)
Yeah, yeah, it's trying to figure out if the dichotomous thinking is helpful for you and why and where does it cost you and choose to make that hard and fast rule when it is helpful and to allow the nuance when it's not. I mean, the traditional cognitive behavioral therapy or the CBT approach to dichotomous thinking is to challenge that thought, right? It's to look for signals of those extreme beliefs like
Anything where you say always or never, I am, I'm never right, I'm never successful, I'm never loved, no one ever stands by me in times of hardship, right? Like these all or nothing words are not accurate, right? Because, you know, life is full of.
counter examples, right? And so you're just wiping out those counter examples. So in cognitive behavioral therapy, you'll be like, okay, let's actually notice when you're having always or never thought, and then ask yourself, what am I missing here? What is evidence that that rule isn't true? Okay, I always feel like everyone rejects me and leaves me. Well, let's think of one or two examples where someone's stuck by you and
Jacqueline Trumbull (57:43.511)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:58.146)
already just one or two examples of one little hint of gray area means that that, you know, black and white categorization is not, it is not accurate. I think that's fine, but I'm not a big fan of like thinking your way out of it because if I'm really thinking black and white like that, I'm feeling an intense emotion and I just, my mind, like, yeah, sure, I know that it's not like.
There are some good sides and bad sides, but right now I'm all bad, right? So I think that I tend to go a little bit more into the emotion. Like, what is the emotion driving those hard and fast rules? I'm so ashamed. I'm so disappointed in myself. I'm so scared that no one's actually gonna love me unless I'm perfect. Like, that is something that it's easier for me to tap into than for someone to talk me out of, but wait.
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:39.448)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:54.041)
There's some good things. I'm like, oh, fine, you know?
Jacqueline Trumbull (58:57.526)
Yeah, I think for me, it can be unhelpful when people try to talk me out of things, but that's primarily because I've already done it. Like I'm a major cognitive restructuring person already, and that's my first go-to with everything. I'm like, here's my assumption. okay. But, this gets me, this makes me put up with a lot of people for too long. I'm like, okay, well what's their possible perspective? And okay, what else is going on? So, you know, I try to dial down the catastrophizing pretty quickly.
and what I think I need to do is say, okay, even when I restructure it, that doesn't get rid of the entire emotion. That is protective and it's a good mechanism, but ultimately there's still going to be discomfort and there's no talking myself out of that. And so I have to figure out how to just, you know, bird surf or breathe through it, sit on my hands, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:55.001)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (59:56.406)
and not try to just like reason away the feelings.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:00.769)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I made a huge. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:02.242)
But I do think it's helpful. If you're not restructuring, like if you're not, and this is why like cognitive work, mean, I think people can find it invalidating, but if they truly don't have the skill, it's a crucial skill to have. Because if people aren't checking the facts, if they aren't noticing whether they're...
know, assuming a threat, they aren't looking at other perspectives, if they're not kind of dialing down the intensity on these worst case scenarios, they're gonna get stuck there. And...
I think it is a good line of defense. So it is worth, know, if you've never done that before, if you've never said, am I making a statement with always? Am I assuming the worst case scenario? Am I, you know, completely making assumptions about the other person without considering at least three different options for what their perspective might be or why they might, that might have happened. And I think it's a good thing to try. It's not the only thing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:00.963)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:05.987)
It's tricky. There's one area that's really tricky and that is abuse, like domestic abuse. Because if you think about it...
a former dichotomist thinking that people with personality disorders do often is, I'm the victim and you are the one to blame. You're the perpetrator. Yes, I might have caused this problem, but I did it because I'm the victim and you are the problem, right? So it's very much like, I have one role, I'm the good one and you're the bad one. And then you watch them flip. I'm the worst. you know, I'm the whatever. And although, you so you would say, hey,
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:28.174)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:01:41.784)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:47.478)
Actually, the real research shows that people who engage in intimate partner violence, like domestic abuse, often people flip roles of perpetrator and victim, right? Actually, there's a lot of cases where both parties hurt the other one, right? And so I find that really tricky because then for people who've experienced like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:09.421)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02:16.461)
sexual assault or other kinds of horrible abuse for them to have a little bit of blame of themselves and like, I'm a little bit bad. That could be really damaging. So I don't really know what to do there except for like the all or nothing of like, that behavior is bad. Everyone should stop. It doesn't make you bad person, but you should all stop that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:21.986)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:37.742)
That is the tough part, you know? But I mean, interestingly, with sexual assault or rape, there's black and white thinking here too, which is unhelpful, which is like, I... Common belief people have is like, maybe I made the person think I wanted it. And I think the nuance there is, who cares? You didn't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:01.55)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:03:02.846)
and he violated you. But then the problem is then you have to create a rule. And that can be tough if you're constantly taking different perspectives.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:04.899)
Yeah, yeah, the consent piece, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:13.465)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those situations are really tricky to know what to do with the dichotomous thinking.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:03:21.25)
Yeah, but that's why it starts for some people, right? It's because they've been in these situations and they probably had to make hard and fast rules like that person's dangerous. Don't allow it. Do not let that person in. I have to keep myself safe. da da da da da. Work with a therapist.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:24.504)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:36.952)
Yeah, get a therapist is the tip. Yeah, and I would say that the tip for loved ones who are watching a loved one go into all or nothing thinking. think I learned that one of the biggest mistakes I made in therapy as a therapist was I had a patient who had a personality disorder, a combination of personality disorders and hold on, I feel like it, okay.
And she was poor thing. She just was convinced that everyone hated her, that she's worthless. Like anything we would do, anything we would say, nothing would pierce that belief. She was all bad all the time. And she had a husband who loved her. She had kids who also loved her. She was well liked at her job. And she would tell me these things, right? She would just be like, yeah, my husband said he loved me. And I got hired for a new job. And they were really...
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:04:22.062)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:37.069)
Like they gave me a good performance review and still, like she was like all bad. And one day when she was really upset, she came in and she was crying and she was like, no one cares about me. No one cares about me at all. No one on this planet. And I, you know, I did the natural gut instinct thing that was wrong, which was like, wait a minute, didn't you say your husband said he cared about you?
I care about you. I really did. I was like, I care about you. I've said this to you and I really enjoy working with you. I actually, I think about you and I care about you and I want you to, I'm here for you. And I thought I was like, good. I'm giving her counter-edivisence to this like inaccurate extreme thought. Good for me, Kibby, telling her that she's not alone in this world. But then she got really upset and she quit therapy after that.
She, cause I remember in the session, she was just like, no, no, you don't care about me. You're just paid to do this. My husband doesn't actually care about me. Like she, she just was just stuck and trying to fit everything into the no one loves me, believe no one being the extreme part. And for us to try to introduce that counter evidence, it, felt invalidating. So I should have, I should have rested with the emotions and been like, yeah, it must.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:47.544)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:54.595)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:06:00.983)
You you must be in so much pain that it seems like no one is giving you the love that they want. That you want. some other way to validate what she was feeling that led to that belief instead of trying to argue against it. So don't do that.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:06:14.816)
Mm-hmm. know, I mean this whole topic is triggering for me based on what's going on in my personal life, but I don't mean triggering, like the kids use it. Yeah, that takes a lot of skill. And I think it's a lot to lay at the feet of loved ones because to not A, like be offended,
you know, to not want to argue is like a tall ask. And you know, with the friendship of mine, I kind of decided like, I'm not actually going to do the work to like give.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:06:46.371)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:06:53.87)
find the perfect response. if it's your mom or your wife or your husband or something, you might have to. And so what would it look like if I come to you and say, nobody fucking cares about me. Just what am I even doing here? No one's ever loved me. What would you do with that?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:07:14.605)
I think, I think I would.
I think I would feel for that core belief of the core, like, okay, if it's a left one versus a patient, I think if it was a patient, I'd be like, I'll try to understand where this motion, like, how long have you been feeling this way? What does it feel like in your body? Like, what's going on? What emotion are you feeling? When have you felt that before? When did that thought first start, right? So then you can get, kind of get, usually that leads you to, you know, when I was bullied as a kid or my dad.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:07:32.088)
Thank
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:07:47.928)
you left, you know, I just feel like I'm completely worthless. And you get to where that emotion is coming and where that like extreme thinking is coming. For a friend, that's tough. That's tough.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:08:07.949)
I think I would still do the same. think I would still try to validate the emotion. I probably would still try to argue against it. Like, no, I actually do care about, you know, you're great in these ways.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:08:12.334)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:08:28.877)
But the smarter thing would be to try to go for the emotion that's leading to that, don't care. Like almost kind of ignore the details of what you're saying and be like, your pain is so great right now. Like you're feeling so ashamed that this is just covering everything you're thinking and seeing.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:08:50.348)
Yeah, I think, you know, I have this image of like a pain demon walking around with a bunch of clothes on, like a trench coat and a funny hat and a silly scarf and high heels, but...
We are like, our instinct is gonna be like, whoa, what are you wearing? Like, take off a few items. Like, that's not, but one actuality all you're dealing with is like the pain demon and it's just dressed up in particular ways. It's dressed up in self-hatred and nobody likes me and dichotomous thinking, yada, yada, yada, yada. And none of that really matters because all it is is just window dressing for the pain. And so, yeah, if you can just hold the pain.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:17.209)
Hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:09:34.594)
then maybe you'll have some luck. But that's hard work.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:40.299)
Yeah, I think I'm trying to put myself in the moments where I felt that all or nothing thinking like I'm garbage. I'm really just, I haven't accomplished anything. I'm not good enough, whatever. And I think that for me, maybe I'm projecting, but that feels a lot like.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:09:45.454)
Ahem.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:09:59.578)
Mindy was trying to claw her way in, cut. What that feels like is helplessness and it just feels like a collapse of trying, right? Like if I have to hold out hope because no, there is a chance or I am good or whatever, then I'm like, okay, I have to keep trying, but the mountain of barriers, it's just too much. So I'm like, fine, it's all bad, right? So it kind of allows me to collapse into.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:09.23)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:10:28.907)
a little bit more of like this helplessness. I've stopped trying, I'm tired, burnout, you know? I mean, right now I'm just describing the way it feels when I'm there. Well, I'm just like totally useless and everyone hates me. I'm just like, I'm not even gonna try because it's way too painful to keep trying to find someone loves me and then to show up and be the best. I'm just tired and I don't wanna do it anymore.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:32.877)
Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:39.148)
No, yeah, that's helpful. Yeah.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:10:52.696)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. You know, I guess I'm... Because I ended a friendship around this, I'm seeing like there are things I could have done better, but why didn't I want to? Because I kind of knew what to do, but I just didn't want to. And when I'm thinking of this pain demon in the outfit, you know, I'm like, okay.
There's a certain degree of like, the outfit is kind of frustrating or makes you sad, person, the loved one, but you can handle it. You know, you can see, you can see the helplessness beneath it. You can, you know, your partner might be saying like, I'm worthless and I can't do anything right. But they're not like actively throwing darts at you. Or.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:39.075)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:11:41.134)
so incredibly self-absorbed that it is really aversive. But sometimes it's really hard to get to the pain because you're so put off by the dressing. You're so put off by the behavior that the pain is radiating. And that kind of has to be listened to for the loved one, right? That's where you have to set limits around it. When your parent is fuming at you...
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:11:46.169)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:12:05.145)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:12:06.99)
then it's kind of like, okay, like you have the choice where you can see the helplessness and validate it and sit with it and help them just experience it. And you also have the choice to say, uh-uh. This isn't, it's not worth it to me because what you radiate out when you're in this place affects me too negatively. And I think that's the choice. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:12:20.931)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:12:28.665)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that the moral of the story is all or nothing thinking cuts out a lot of the nuance, right? It cuts things that are bad, but also could cut out things that are good. And if you have a loved one who is just so set in a core belief or dichotomous thinking, like of these very rules driven, there's not a lot of room for you and relationships in the healthiest sense.
is about a co-creation between two people, at least that's what I believe, right? It's like we are affecting each other. But if it's just like, I am just gonna step into your blueprint that you have, or I'm out, right? I'm this kind of daughter or friend or whatever, and I love you and I give you full access and I act this way and I don't say anything, then I'm just a role. I'm just dehumanized into a figure. Whereas like,
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:13:01.571)
Love you.
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:13:22.925)
Yes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:13:24.043)
You want to be a full person, right? You want that nuance in you. You don't want to be seen as all good or all bad. You want to be seen for the other sides of you. And if that other person doesn't allow that nuance in you and your relationship, then you're going to have to leave that relationship in order to be whole again.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:13:33.538)
Mm-hmm.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:13:44.128)
Yeah, that was well said. That resonated. Anyway, I think that does it. Okay, any resources?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:13:50.329)
Good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:13:56.131)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:13:59.597)
Yeah, there's some interesting research studies that kind of woven into what we talked about. So I'll link that in the show notes.
Jacqueline Trumbull (01:14:08.588)
Okay, little helpers, we are pretty black and white about ratings. We only accept five stars and really complimentary comments. So if you would like to be dichotomous about that, you are welcome to and we will see you next week.
