Ep. 184-Why We Chase the Unavailable: The Clinical Roots of Anxious-Avoidant Relationship Cycles
This episode explores the psychology of why we chase emotionally unavailable partners.
Are you caught in a cycle of pursuing those who seem just out of reach? In this episode, Dr. Kibby delves into the psychology behind why we chase those who are hard to get. She talks about to main principles that drive this behavior, from behavioral economics to the neurobiology of attachment.
She unpacks the attachment patterns that lead to the "pursuit-withdrawal" cycle, where anxious and avoidant attachments clash, creating a loop of emotional highs and lows. Through personal anecdotes and scientific insights, Dr. Kibby reveals how these patterns are rooted in our upbringing and survival mechanisms. Learn strategies to break free from this cycle, including emotion regulation techniques and the importance of secure attachments.
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0:00
Welcome & Understanding the Unavailable Partner Cycle
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved.
0:04
Speaker 2
Ones struggling with mental health.
Hey little helpers, Dr. Kibby here.
Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction.
0:14
Speaker 1
Struggles of the people you love.
0:17
Speaker 2
Cool of mine is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries.
Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to kulamine.com, KUL AM ind.com and click Get started.
0:38
Thank you and enjoy the show.
0:39
Speaker 1
Hey little helpers, today I'm going to be talking about why you chase unavailable partners.
So it's a really common problem that we seem to be addicted to the chase.
People who don't text back right away or even ghost you or come in talk about wanting to see you and they don't actually make plans or people who you're in a relationship with, maybe even married to.
1:12
And whenever there's stress, whenever you have a need, whenever things get sensitive, they shut down and you're left feeling alone and scared and nervous.
So I'm going to talk about what basically, why do you keep keep doing this?
1:34
Why do you keep chasing these people?
Why do you keep finding new people who are you know, who say they want commitment but actually don't act like it or in who are in relationships seem to kind of disappear.
1:51
And then I'm going to talk about what you can do about it, how you need to change it.
So by the way, if I sound coffee or hoarse, it's because I have pneumonia right now.
Last week we were on spring break, my son's spring break in Miami, and I thought I just had a cough.
2:09
But then it just took a turn for the worse and I landed myself in urgent care.
And here I am with pneumonia.
So I'm on antibiotics.
I mean, I'm getting treated, but I want to show up for you guys anyway with active pneumonia or walking pneumonia, whatever it is.
2:24
So please excuse if I have to cough or anything like that.
That's like kind of like a misophonia trigger warning.
So yeah, I it's, it's interesting that I've been talking to more people in the cool mind and in this community about with loved ones who of people who are struggling with mental health and why does this come up?
2:48
Why does this like chasing unavailable people come up?
Well, a lot of the time what I'm noticing is that there is an there is anxiety and insecurity and a chase when you're dealing with someone with mental illness or struggling with their mental health, there's anxiety involved, there's anger, there's just a lot of tension in their relationship.
3:12
And especially if someone has a diagnosis that they're struggling with, right, like trauma or you know, it's very common to talk about narcissists and what they do in relationships and how they could feel so close to you.
But also so far and also borderline personality disorder, people who had that natural push pull in all their relationships.
3:34
So I feel like even in normal dating or romantic circumstances, there is the chase, but it's especially, I would say painful when you're dealing with a loved one with mental illness, even if it's your kid.
So I'm mostly going to be talking about today romantic relationships, but I, I do think it applies to any close relationship.
3:56
We're going to talk about attachment relationships.
So the question about why do you chase emotionally unavailable partners?
4:05
Why Scarcity Makes Partners Seem More Valuable
I think there's two main reasons.
I'll go into one a little bit, but I'll really go into the second one.
The first one is the scarcity principle.
The idea that if some resource is harder to get, it naturally makes it feel more valuable.
4:27
So if someone is less available with their time, doesn't commit to you right away, maybe it's shared among other people, right?
And so their time and energy and attention is scarce and you only get a little bit of it that naturally makes you just want to chase that, want to think that that's something that's more valuable than maybe it is.
4:51
And then there's other piece.
The other main reason why you chase unavailable partners is attachment principles, attachment patterns in that when you chase emotionally unavailable partners, most of the time people are saying that I have anxious attachment and I'm chasing someone with avoidant attachment, right.
5:15
The most common gender split is emotionally unavailable men and emotionally anxious women.
But the idea behind that is that it's actually an emotionally dysregulation loop.
5:32
It's it's people, it's a survival mechanism, A coping mechanism that's actually incompatible.
So what that looks like is you as a person with anxious attachment deal with threat by moving closer, by fighting for love, by chasing, pursuing and the other person deals with threat by withdrawing and suppressing and and moving away.
6:04
So I'll talk a little bit about each one of those more in depth than the attachment ruptures because that's something you could do more of.
And we know a little bit more about the neurobiology of it, at least I do.
So the scarcity principle is really thinking about dating and romantic relationships as a kind of like in terms of economic principles or business principles.
6:30
So when something, when a resource, when a product or you know, a thing, a person is scarce, right?
You, you, they have limited time, limited tension, limited energy and limited maybe ability to invest in someone, right?
6:47
They could only be exclusive with one person.
When something seems scarce, that makes it seem more valuable more than it actually is. 11 company that I heard actually, I mean, a lot of companies exploit this, right?
7:03
This is just how economics work.
But for example, De Beers, I read a long time ago that they wanted to, they wanted to increase the value of diamonds, right?
They're like in the business of selling diamonds and they're like, how do we make this?
7:22
How do we, how do we actually do this?
How do we increase like the the perceived value of these products?
One thing they did, which is really cool is incorporated into a a ritual, a tradition in our culture.
7:41
So smart.
So the diamonds a girl's best friend.
In order to get engaged, you should get like, you know, you know, proposed with a diamond ring, right, That was actually fabricated by diamond companies or jewel companies to be like, OK, here's how you should you should actually buy our products at a very specific time in your life, right?
8:05
And so that kind of guarantees a market, creates a market really.
So there's incorporating that into a ritual tradition.
But the scarcity principle is interesting because what they if I don't know if you guys seen the movie Blood Diamond, It's been years since I've seen it, but it the whole, I'm not going to give it away, but the whole movie is about that, about how diamond companies will like De Beers will intentionally limit how many diamonds are being sold are in the market, like the Volt, like lock them away so that the few that are out there can increase in value.
8:43
And so that's kind of the principle behind playing hard to get in romantic relationships.
So intentionally withdrawing your attention, intentionally limiting your time, saying, oh, I'm only available Saturday or I'm sorry, I'm, you know, I, I, I'm dating multiple people and you know, you could only get like 1 date or I'm, I'm not going to be exclusive to you.
9:07
And so there's a limit to how much of me you get.
That is creating the scarcity principle, right?
Like playing hard to get, which could be manipulative, right?
It's actually like using human nature to make you seem more valuable.
9:23
And, and also it really helps to another principle of economics is like the demand, right?
If you see that person is in demand for that scarce resource, right?
They're being asked out by a lot of people.
9:39
They are desired by a lot of people, they are busy.
Then you have both things you're like, oh, that person's love is scarce and a lot of people want it.
So that just naturally increase like increases like the competition.
9:56
So you can imagine like those reality shows, reality dating shows really play on that, right?
Like the Bachelor and Bachelorette.
I know it's kind of on the rocks now, but there's one person, one guy for 30 women to compete against.
And that person might be like, fine, you know, that guy might be just like a nice person, but then suddenly you see all these women like falling in love with him because he's a scarce resource with a lot of demand, especially in that context, right?
10:24
So it's, it's creating value.
It's increasing that person's value.
The interesting thing is when they had a Bachelorette season with two bachelorettes, Gabby and Rachel, I remember.
And then suddenly the dynamics all changed.
The men were the the suitors, the contestants were way less in love with the women and they were less like obsessive and hungry for their attention.
10:49
It was like, oh, I could choose between two people.
That automatically decreases that scarcity, which was really sad for the for those two women.
But so the scarcity principle, when you see someone who is emotionally unavailable, like you're dating them and they're not texting back right away.
11:06
You're like, oh, they're not.
There's a limit to how much they're giving me.
And I remember in my 20s, maybe in my 30s, I really dated emotionally unavailable people.
11:23
I, it was, it was so silly.
When I look at it, it's, it's almost like you're addicted to the chase, you're addicted to the pursuit and the, the winning.
I'm not like super competitive, but putting together with attachment principles that I'll talk in a minute.
11:40
It was like I needed relationships and love and I needed to get get it.
And if someone was, you know, not as responsive, like if they, if they gave a little bit of attention, right, If they, they, I heard they liked me or that we flirted or something, but then they pulled away or kind of didn't seem as an interest as before.
12:03
It was like a drug, right?
It was like a chase of like, I got a dopamine hit and when is it going to come again, right?
So there actually is, I think, some principles of addiction that also come with chasing unavailable partners.
You get a little, what they call bread crumbs, like a little attention, a little flirt, a little hope, and then it feels so good.
12:27
But then you have the withdrawal of that security, right?
They're gone, They are busy, they can't commit.
And then suddenly that those couple times that they actually give you the, the reward is so much more reinforcing, which is kind of like how slot machines and casinos work, right?
12:49
That's like you get one big jackpot and then you then it makes you put in more money to try to get the next jackpot.
It's so reinforcing and that's working on variable, variable reinforcement, which is so addictive.
Like if you give them, if you give anyone reward, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine consistently and then you space it out randomly.
13:14
That is the way to hook someone, right?
So if you like in a slot machine, if you think about it, you get a coin, Oh, a coin, Oh, a coin, right?
You keep playing, playing, playing.
You get reward, board reward and then you get a jackpot and you're like, Oh my God, this is amazing.
13:30
This feels so good.
But then no coins and you're just putting in, putting in.
It keeps you there because you're like, when is the next jackpot coming?
Right?
When, when am I going to get that dopamine hit again?
And you also feel the withdrawal of like the rewards you're used to.
13:48
So that consistent reinforcement with variable reinforcement is the way to hook people in.
And so emotionally unavailable partners do that, right?
Someone on your dating, you have a great first date, you're texting all the time.
It's amazing.
You're connecting.
14:05
And then maybe they like you really lean and you have a great night, you really connect and then they pull away.
Then you're like, Oh my God, right.
Like the withdrawal plus that dopamine hit of when they actually call you again, that's a way to actually get addicted to the chase.
14:24
I was definitely, I was so addicted to the chase when I was younger that, you know, I was just, I would just be, I mean, the classic example is my ex-husband where that was happening.
It was like reinforcement.
We were connecting, it was great.
And then suddenly he would pull away.
14:40
He would be like, oh, you know, I don't want to get attached and something like that.
And I have like an addictive personality and also an ambitious personality.
So the scarcity principle was it's really hooking for me.
It really works on me where I go, oh, oh, I have to get it.
14:57
I have to if it's, if it's unavailable, I have or less available, I have to get it.
I have to win it, right.
I have to earn it, which makes me good in like school and work and stuff because I'm constantly chasing, I'm constantly doing a lot of things to get a like a long term gratification, like a long term reward.
15:16
But sometimes it was just like just the scarcity principle and that hook of I have to win.
It was the thing that was pulling me in.
The problem with that was I wasn't even seeing that person for who they were, right?
I wasn't seeing them for they're emotionally unavailable because they're kind of emotionally immature or the sad, the more sad version was that's what they're like.
15:43
I was chasing this big connection of romance and love and pneumonia, sorry showing up.
But all they were able to give was, you know, like decent kind of absent minded boyfriend.
15:59
And so their, their normal state, the way they were didn't give me that dopamine hit.
And I mean, I called myself out for for that to be like, I was just chasing the chase.
16:15
I wasn't even chasing the person because sometimes I would actually often I would actually start dating that person and then something would wear off.
I would get to know them and go like, you know, they're actually not a right good, good fit for me.
But I spent so much of my childhood in early 20s just like obsessing over guys that didn't like me.
16:36
That was like my thing.
And yeah, I mean, I just looking back, it was kind of an addiction and probably an addiction that distracted me from myself or my problems, right?
16:52
I couldn't control my mom and dad being in and out of the hospital and all the things that were happening in my life, but I can control whether a guy likes me.
And if they like me, wow, it means something.
It means I'm worthy.
It means that I am attractive or I am worthy of love, right?
17:12
There was so much like meaning ascribed to whether they texted me back or not.
Now that I'm forwarding, I could look back at those years.
I'm like, I still have those, those tendencies, but now I could channel it to, to healthier circumstances.
17:28
So the scarcity principle and the the psychology behind how we value things is really a key thing when you're talking about like emotionally unavailable men, people, women could be emotionally unavailable too.
I also think that emotionally unavailable women tend to chase commitment, right?
17:48
So if I look back at myself, the times that I was emotionally unavailable, like I was dealing with my father's death and cancer and everything like that, I was travelling, I was figuring out who I was dealing with, my mom's alcoholism.
I was not ready to be a full partner, right?
18:07
I wasn't ready to settle down and give myself to someone.
So instead of saying that openly because women don't say that, I would go after men who said that they didn't want a relationship.
And I'm like oh I'm single because this guy I'm obsessed with doesn't want me.
18:25
I was making a subconscious choice of not having a relationship while looking like I was chasing 1.
So I also think that chasing unemotionally available partners might mean that you are emotionally unavailable.
So you could tune into yourself and think, am I really ready for something like this?
18:43
Like am I, if this person turned around and said here I am, I'm warts and all, I'm ready for you, What are you going to do or what have you done?
But I want to talk a little bit more about the attachment patterns and the neurobiology of attachment that goes underneath chasing someone who's emotionally unavailable.
19:02
How Our Need for Connection Shapes Behavior
And what I'm talking about is they call it an emotion, emotion focused therapy as the pursuit withdrawal cycle.
You could also call it the anxious attachment and avoid an attachment cycle.
19:23
I'll say upfront, let me explain what it is.
So I mean, for, for anyone who doesn't know about attachment patterns, I'm sure you've seen it online and, and stuff like that.
It's kind of everywhere in our culture.
But the idea is that the science behind attachment is that we need secure attachment figures to survive, right?
19:43
This is really important to humans.
You cannot be an island.
I'm sorry.
Like, if you feel bad that you need other people to feel good and safe, like, rest assured that means you're human.
Because we are born with with parents or caregivers and we have learned to stay safe, especially early on.
20:07
From being loved and cared for by a person, whoever that is.
So an attachment figure, someone who's very close that you rely on for safety.
It's really important in survival.
And when kids grow up, they have all these mechanisms, these natural mechanisms of wanting to be close, like physical proximity, wanting to be physically close to their attachment figure, their mom, let's say in, in when it's when it's unsafe.
20:38
And then you're supposed to wander out, explore, learn.
And then when you're scared, you go back to the attachment figure.
It's the, the feeling of safe base, right?
That's a really important part of how we work and how we regulate emotions.
We've learned to regulate emotions by being close to a person, right?
20:56
So naturally feeling scared and feeling under threat or anxious, like there's people involved in that, right?
So different.
That's, that's just like a really important thing to remember that our attachment system basically clocks, OK, how close am I to this person?
21:21
How close am I to this attachment figure?
How can I use this attachment figure to keep me safe?
And kids learn all different types of how to navigate around this attachment figure to stay safe.
21:37
Fighting for Love: The Anxious Pursuit Pattern
So I don't like how they just put boxes right anxious and avoid it.
Which gives a really stupid impression, a really not nuanced, a really reductionistic impression that some people are anxious and some people just run away and avoid.
21:58
The truth is that this is all in the context of anxiety, right?
So everyone's anxious in this picture.
But the question is, what do you do when you're under threat?
When you're, when you start to get dysregulated or triggered, your survival mode goes up.
22:15
Do you go closer to the people that you're attached to or do you go far away?
So if you're just still look on the Internet, you would think that being anxious attachment just means you really want love and avoiding attachment means that you don't care about people and you're selfish, right.
22:33
It's A and that is just not true.
So this is all if you just want to think about it as how does someone stay safe in relationships in close relationships, people who you could have disorganized attachment, which means that you do all of it, which is what I am.
22:51
I was.
But when you think about anxious and avoidant people who are anxiously attached have learned that they need to fight for love, they need to fight for connection, they need to chase it, they need to protest, they need to get bigger.
23:10
They need to go towards right, they need to grab it.
Usually that means there is a caregiver whose support and comfort and love is scarce, right?
So, you know, maybe they're busy, maybe they're, they have mental health issues, maybe they're stressed, maybe they're overworked.
23:32
Maybe there's lots of kids who, who they're paying attention to.
So getting their help and attachment is hard to get and you have to fight for it, right?
That's, that's what happens with anxious attachment.
People who have anxious attachment have learned to pursue this form of safety, this attachment now avoid an attachment late.
23:57
They've learned to go away.
They've learned to deactivate.
They've learned to calm down, get smaller, withdraw, shut down, right?
So it's the opposite, right?
The anxious attachment is like, hey, hey, hey, hey, I need to get louder while avoid an attachment learned that I need to get quieter to get safe to get that attachment security.
24:24
So it's not like they don't care.
It's not like people with avoid an attachment don't care about attachment or connection or intimacy.
What they do care is what do I need to do to stay safe?
24:39
Oh, it's withdraw, right?
People with anxious attachment.
I'm sorry people with avoid an attachment most of the time they have gotten to develop that coping mechanism because there's something about relationships or maybe the caregiver that was threatening when it's too close, maybe they were abusive, maybe they were controlling, maybe they didn't, they didn't give enough autonomy and independence, right?
25:13
And so that kid has learned if I go close to my caregiver, bad things are going to happen.
I'm not actually not going to feel safe, so I'm going to go away.
I, I, weirdly enough, I had both, I had avoidant and anxious attachment.
25:31
I had the anxious attachment because I watched my mom constantly pursue my dad in a way was like, oh, he's the one.
Like he was, she was always talking about him.
It's always like felt like yearning for love, learning from yearning for fighting for other people to pay attention to her and love her.
25:52
So I kind of adopted that.
But then when I was in a relationship, I actually, I think what kicked up was my attachment pattern with my mom, where relationship with her was a little bit too overwhelming, right?
She would when she was especially upset or depressed or going through something, she would literally chase me around the house screaming and say, why aren't you paying attention to me?
26:13
Why, you know, and wouldn't let me leave the house and you know, a bunch of other things that were really terrible and scary.
So I learned, I learned I have to, I literally would hide.
I would hide in different parts of the house or outside or, you know, run to my dad's house.
I would hide to stay safe from all the yelling and the explosions, right?
26:33
And so that was even a way to, to keep the relationship with her in a way, because if I just stayed there, I would feel like I was destroyed, like it felt like she was trying to destroy me a lot of the time.
So hiding was the thing that felt safe and the only way that I can feel free to do what I need to do, which is like homework and be alive and stuff like that.
26:55
So I, I learned that, oh, closeness and too much closeness doesn't feel safe.
So I'm going to have secure attachment now, but that all was in me.
27:11
So in this framework of attachment, being anxiously attached is not like the good thing and avoidance is the bad thing.
It's that what do?
What did your nervous system learn was a way to stay safe when it comes to closeness with other people?
27:35
People have anxious attachment.
They actually have learned.
Their nervous system has learned to hyperactivate, which means that it turns up right to go towards and get active.
You have to fight, you have to protest, you have to watch out, you have to escalate.
27:52
You have to shout out for someone to love you.
I need to feel safe with someone's love and and attention.
And they even see that in neuroscience studies.
So there's some evidence in fMRI studies that people with anxious attachment when they feel excluded or rejected, first of all, they're scanning for rejection cues a lot more.
28:15
They're like, oh, am I is this person rejecting me?
Like what's going right?
So they're, they're high alert and when they see, oh, I'm getting rejected, they're it's not as clear.
Like it's not like one brain system lights up, but the whole system about attachment security and threat detection light up.
28:36
So people with anxious attachment when they feel rejected or they actually see, oh, I'm getting excluded right now or I'm getting abandoned.
Their dorsal anterior singlet cortex and anterior insula.
28:52
Those are mouthful, but those are those are brain, brain areas that are involved in the whole like distress and rejection related distress signaling.
So those brain brain areas go up, they get active, right?
29:10
Oh my gosh, right.
29:12
When Closeness Feels Dangerous: The Avoidant Response
But for attachment, avoid people who are avoidably attached and actually goes down the activation goes down South.
People with anxious attachment have learned I got to fight for love and I got to, you know, I got to jazz myself up right to get I have to get hyped up to do this.
29:30
So when you don't get a text, right, you're like dating someone or even your your partner or even friend and you're in a fight or you're not sure if they like you and they're not texting back and you feel anxious, that is because your rejection related distress signals are firing.
29:50
Now, the unhealthy way people do that, right?
Let's say you're, you're dating someone emotionally unavailable or with an in a relationship with someone.
When you don't get that text or you feel rejected or feel like you're going to be abandoned, what happens is like you go into kind of a fight or flight mode, right?
30:10
You're going into a survival mode of uh oh, I'm under, I'm under threat.
And that could cloud your judgement, right?
So when that happens, people would do anything to stay safe, right?
Because we need other people and attachment figures to be safe to survive naturally.
30:30
But what what tends to happen with unavailable partners is that you send to pursue more, right?
You tend to get more hyper vigilant.
You're paying attention more to their, their signals or what you know, how much are they paying attention to you or not?
30:48
You're like checking your phone all the time where it's like, who cares, right?
Like that?
They text back.
They text back, but you're like checking your phone, wondering why they haven't texted, Why are they committing?
And you're pursuing more.
You're going to probably text more, you're going to ask more.
31:06
And when it goes really badly is especially in relationships, that's when people get controlling or possessive or even coercive, right?
The idea that this is attachment is scarce and you have to fight for it.
31:27
Well, then when you get it, it's like you want to hold on to it and sometimes in ways that are really harmful to the other person, right?
With jealousy and reassurance seeking like you know, like who are who are you with like what are you I know that you're dating other people I know they're filling out.
31:44
Why are you looking right like you start to get possessive over that.
So that is the way that that anxious attachment could get dysregulated is when it starts to get coercive.
I I'm surprised by how many people on the Internet just think of like when they have a bad dating experience with a man or a bad ex, they think he's a narcissist and he's emotionally avoided.
32:14
But he also was controlling and manipulative.
Most likely that person was had disorganized attachment, right?
There was like some things about gripping and controlling and then like pulled away when it got too threatening.
32:29
And if they were controlling you, like controlling your finances or would accuse you of cheating, right?
They were trying to keep you in their grasp, right?
That's an anxious attachment thing.
32:45
That's a dysregulated, that's, you know, a bad coping skill for dealing with anxious attachment.
Oh, MO, I have to fight for love.
Oh, I'm going to fight for it really hard, harshly.
So see, I'm sorry if you have anxious attachment, you're like, Oh my God.
33:02
But it's that is that is when you act on your survival mode in ways that are maybe unhealthy or maybe work against you.
And This is why it's particularly bad because when you do that, when you protest and grab and cling and ask for reassurance and, you know, get more possessive and controlling, that's the exact threat queue to people with avoidant attachment.
33:37
So when people have avoided attachment, they are, they say, oh, closeness is dangerous, right?
It's what they're afraid of, what people would avoid an attachment or who are withdrawers in the withdrawal pursuit cycle.
They have associated intense closeness with danger because they might feel I'm losing my autonomy, like I'm losing my independence.
34:00
I won't be able to have freedom and agency and control of myself if this person is so attached to me.
And they might have been abused, they might have been controlled.
They might have been, you know, they might have been like me, like for a long time feeling like someone loved me, like my mom would say felt scary because that love came with being yelled at, being berated, being hit.
34:28
Like, you know, there was a lot of things that being loved was like directly dangerous.
So that person might be like, oh, no, it's happening.
I'm getting I'm I'm going to be in danger.
I'm being chased.
And they might deactivate, right.
34:44
So they, while people with anxious attachment learn to escalate, avoid an attachment, have learned to de escalate, calm things down, quiet it down, shut down, be small, right?
Like like this.
And it's not because they don't care.
35:00
It's because they're afraid that the escalation is going to take you guys to a place where you can never take back, right?
If someone would say something or do something or hurt in ways that would create lasting damage, right?
35:16
So they're like, it's a trauma response.
All of this is trauma response.
They're like, I'm going to shut down to stay safe.
The problem with that is, as you can guess from the withdrawal pursuit cycle is that it is, it backfires, right?
This is a cycle.
35:32
So when, let's say the avoidant pulls away a little bit, the anxious attachment and the anxious person will chase and that's exact threat cue to the avoidant and they will, they will withdraw more and they'll shut down and they'll not respond.
35:49
They'll get more in their head.
I feel like people with avoided attachment are, they're not so like in tune with their emotions, but they like suppress their emotions and are and are in their heads a lot, right?
And they, they're, they think a lot.
36:06
They, they are emotional people, but they're like, no, no, no intense emotions is too threatening.
Let me calm down, let me think through this.
Oh my God, I'm under pressure to I don't want to make the wrong step.
They're The Walking on egg shells feeling kind of person.
36:21
But them shutting down, try to deactivate is the threat queue for the, the anxious attachment.
They're like, Oh my gosh, you're shutting down, you're pulling away.
So round and round it goes, right.
So actually what's happening when you're chasing someone with a voided attachment or dating someone with a voided attachment and you're a, you're a pursuer.
36:44
What you're doing is that your survival coping mechanisms are triggers for each other.
So that's why it gets worse.
And that's why it gets so quickly sensitive.
That's why these these cycles pick up so quickly.
37:00
And you're like, oh, you know, I'm every time I talk about this problem, he shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it.
And then I, I go to him and I, I want to talk about it, but then he says, go away.
And that makes me feel even worse, right.
So if there's literally a chase around the house with that.
37:17
And then actually, sometimes it flips, right?
The the person who's avoidant who withdraws, withdraws is like a scared dog when they were draw too much and it doesn't work.
No, they bite back fine.
And then the pursuer gives up.
They go fine.
37:32
I'm I'm tired of being the only one fighting.
I'm tired of being the only one who cares.
I give up, right.
So there's a back and forth there and it's all a chase.
37:44
How Survival Modes Trigger Each Other in Relationships
Something to remember about that is if you are someone who with anxious attachment, something to remember is that you are you're operating on a survival mode.
38:00
This is a survival mechanism, right?
You're a dysregulated, you're super anxious.
The thing that you feel keeps you safe in relationships is no longer it's gone.
They're abandoning you or they're coming after you, right?
So you are in a state of like heightened, you know, like, oh God, there's a threat here, what do I do?
38:20
And you default on the thing that you learned that kept you safe, right?
Either going far away or getting close.
The thing to remember is that when you are in that protective mode that like survival mode, you're no longer seeing the person for who they are, right?
38:42
You're just acting on impulse and acting on survival in the way that you learned in the past.
So if you have grown up with neglectful or abusive caregivers and you've learned, OK, going closer is or going away is keeping me safe.
39:01
But then you're dealing with another person and they might be similar to their to your caregiver, but they might be different.
They may not be as dangerous.
And so when someone goes into the survival mode, they're no longer seeing you.
They're just like, huh, I have to stay safe.
39:17
So if someone is what shutting down or withdrawing or ghosting, you know that you're ramping up the chase is actually making them even more scared, even making them feel more under threat, like they might go OK, OK, you know, and and, and give you that jackpot just out of, you know, trying to make you happy.
39:40
You're trying to calm things down, but they you, you're scaring them.
And keeping that in mind, you might think to yourself like, it's not about that this person doesn't care or that doesn't want commitment or is wrong or bad in some way, or they're trying to manipulate me or trying to play hard to get.
40:02
It might be that they're trying to protect themselves.
So it might and it might seem crazy to you that reaching out for connection.
Is actually a sign of being is, is like a threat, but you reaching out for connection might be the thing that's scary to them.
40:20
So just keep in mind like that this that you might be working on survival modes, right?
And you're not seeing each other, You're not actually trying to connect to this person.
You're trying to connect to safety.
And they are not running away from you or rejecting you.
40:37
They're withdrawing into safety, right?
And sometimes it's painful, right?
You, you love that person, but yet there's that you feel that there's something going on, right?
There's you feel like I'm we're doing something unhealthy that we can't stop.
So realize that this is a dysregulated state and both of you are dysregulated and triggering each other in the dysregulated state.
40:58
So sometimes even just seeing that just understanding that this is a period of threat is really important.
And this is also why people get all in their heads about why am I chasing this person when I have so much else going on.
41:19
I thought that a lot when I was going through really stressful times in my life.
I, I remember I would go to see my therapist and my dad would be dying, my mom would be sick and I would be talking about why doesn't this guy like me?
It seemed crazy, but now I know I had no, I had no security in those moments.
41:39
I had no like secure attachment figure that I could rest in and feel safe in their presence, in that intimacy and relationship.
So what I was doing is trying to chase that.
I was trying to fight for that somewhere else that felt more available than what was going on at the time.
42:01
You know, even when something has happened would have when you had an attachment wound in the past, like your carrier, your parent, your dad didn't care about you or didn't show love or affection, you still have that attachment wound of, oh, I need to fight for love.
I don't, I don't feel that it's in me.
42:16
I don't feel that I just have it and it's just secure.
So you're chasing it in a new person sometimes because we think that these new people are, we could do something more about, right?
It's more controllable than like our dad who made us feel unloved, so to speak, right?
42:34
So you're trying to like find this soothing, this this soothing that's supposed to come with attachment in this new person.
And that seems that explains why you're like get weirdly obsessive or really hooked on this person.
42:49
And why aren't they calling me back?
Or why are they, why are they shutting me out when something else is going on in your life that's really stressful because you're looking for them to be your regulating figure, right?
43:05
So then what do you do about it?
43:07
Finding Safety: Regulating Anxious Attachment Patterns
What do you do when you're either, when you're in a withdrawal pursuit cycle and you're I'm, I'm speaking from the place of the attached, the anxious, anxiously attached person, person who's chasing the emotionally unavailable 1.
I remember when I was obsessing over a guy or even obsessing over, you know, like the people I was with, even my current husband, when when we would get into arguments and I would be scared.
43:34
And, and it's like, you know, that you're supposed to take care of yourself and just be like, oh, forget it.
If you're not going to value me or, or chase me too, then you're, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to detach and go away.
You know, that's the right thing to do, right?
43:52
But you can't help it.
You're still checking your phone, you're still texting them, you're still like, are they mad at me?
You know what's going on?
I get, I got to, I got to get reassurance that they are here with me, right?
So forcing yourself just to be cool about it is, is not, is not easy.
44:10
It's kind of the same thing as if you were terrified and scared for your life.
And someone said, oh, just calm down.
There's nothing to be anxious about.
Harder.
It's, it's a harder said than done.
And also trying to just suppress those, those feelings, those like feelings of, you know, fight or flight actually sometimes make them more intense.
44:30
So don't have to just be like, let me just get rid of my anxiety.
But here's a couple of strategies.
Here's a couple ways knowing that this you're in survival mode, you're looking at that text, you saw that it was read.
44:45
They read your text like in several hours ago and they still haven't texted back.
And you're like, Oh my God, you can't.
You can't think of anything else.
You could label it.
You could label it as maybe I'm in my anxious attachment moment or I am in fight or flight mode, right?
45:04
Like I'm, I'm feeling like that fear of abandonment, whatever you want to call it, but just label it and know that that's what's happening and know that it's going to change the way you see things, right?
You're going to look at all of their texts or you're going to look at even things that they're doing to like reach out and bids for connection as like not enough or rejecting.
45:23
You're going to read into things in a really crazy way because you're just trying to stay safe.
So just catching yourself, making assumptions, reading into situations that spell threat to you, right?
They're going to abandon me, they're leaving me.
45:40
They hate me, they don't like me noticing like I'm just reading into like my, my anxious attachment is like reading into these situations this way.
So just catching it when it, when it comes up and then knowing that I need safety right now.
45:59
OK.
But like, this is what I love about emotion regulation.
It's not about squashing down or getting rid of that emotion.
It's listening to it.
It's listening to what that attachment anxiety is saying to you, which is I need safety right now.
46:19
And being close to someone makes me feel safe.
Totally reasonable.
It's annoying that that person is not, it's not as available as you need right now, but knowing that you can go, OK, how do I regulate?
46:35
How do I soothe myself?
How do I feel safe in this moment?
So there's a really cool study by Norman and colleagues that was in 2015 that looked at a really cool strategy for how to reduce this attachment threat feeling.
46:55
And what they did the study did was they took people and either give them one of two interventions. 1 was just they saw a bunch of like random pictures of like furniture and stuff like that, the neutral one.
47:11
But then the one that they wanted to actually like reduce and like work on that threat, the attachment threat, they did what's called attachment security priming.
Attachment security priming in this study was they were seeing photographs of close attachments or love, like people hugging or caring for each other or being happy together, like they just saw pictures of happy relationships.
47:44
And when these two people on the scanner and saw these different pictures, the 11 group got the neutral pictures, one got like loving, you know, oxytocin, close relationships.
The people in the attachment security priming group who saw all the pictures of the happy people hugging and caring for each other.
48:03
They had less activity in the amygdala when they were faced with a threat, which means that their emotions, they're like fear and survival mechanism was less turned on when they saw something scary after that.
48:21
So take taking this for you if you feel, I mean either if you feel avoidant or or anxious, but you're like, I'm really stressed in my relationship for whatever or not even relationship.
48:37
Maybe like your dating partner do some attachment security priming, whatever that means for you.
I mean, I would love it if you guys like looked at pictures of like good relationships and then felt the difference like that might be so cool, right?
48:55
To see if that's the case, where if you just like look at your look at your photo album on your phone and look at the times when you're having fun with friends or hugging your kid or your partner and just like just looking at that, But also you can do it in other ways.
49:12
Watch a good ROM com hug, hang out with a friend and feel connected to them.
Really get give someone a really good deep hug.
Pet your pet, your pet, right?
It's like text a really good friend, not about like, oh, this, this guy won't text me back, but like actually just connect to someone to remind your nervous system that I have other ways of feeling safe.
49:38
I have other ways of soothing and feeling attachment than just this person who's on who's unavailable right now, right?
So just recognizing that you have a need there.
You have a need to feel safe and that's totally fine.
49:55
But then let's actually meet that need in healthy ways.
If that person is unavailable, they're not texting back, they're not talking to you, they're not connecting to you.
Do it in in another way.
That's actually one of the one of the reasons why I made this cool mind group for the, you know, I'm supporting loved ones of people with mental illness or addiction.
50:15
And a lot of them, I noticed they're very emotionally regulated, right?
They're like almost not avoidant, but they're like, oh, I have to keep everything calm.
But they want connection.
They really want to feel the connection with someone, right?
50:31
And sometimes they feel disconnected from someone because they're depressed or they're mentally ill or they're, you know, on drugs.
So they, like, want that closeness, but they can't get it.
And they feel insecure, right?
They feel scared.
So connecting with each other is a huge thing.
50:48
So they have a place.
It's been beautiful to watch.
Like they have a community where they're like, you know, like my daughter, my partner is like not doing well.
And instead of looking to that person for the security, they could look to people who actually are more stable and are there for them.
51:05
So find a community, find a community.
There's lots of cool communities online now.
Find your people and actually give yourself that feeling of safety and and soothing.
So but then when you're are in a relationship with someone where you're dating them and you have anxious attachment, then it's like, is there anything I can do in my relationship?
51:32
Emotion focused Therapy, the book this this book hold me tight by Doctor Sue Johnson, the founder of emotion Emotion focused therapy, talks a lot about what you can do in a relationship when there's like that kind of dynamic that pursue withdraw anxious avoided dynamic.
51:53
And what's really nice about that is that you, you can own what's going on inside you.
Like I'm scared, I feel under threat.
I feel like, afraid that you're going to leave me and go, OK, there's part of that that I have to soothe myself.
52:09
But there is something that we could do together that can help soothe that.
So for example, there's a couple strategies.
There's two, there's two main ones.
One is called a safe haven request so that I mean it's more effective if you make those requests to people who are are not emotionally unavailable, but really it's it's asking another person to give you some some kind of security right not over and over again, not saying you need to do this right, that's controlling right.
52:45
You need to make me feel safe, but it gets it could be like this you text.
Hey, I'm just really, I'm feeling really like anxious right now.
Can we just do a quick check in and tell me how your day was?
53:02
I just want to feel, I just want to feel that you're there, right?
Instead of you need to respond to me right away.
Why are you doing about like without like ramping up, but saying, hey, can we do this small, really manageable thing to like give me a little bit of reassurance, make me feel safe, but then also like gives you your space.
53:23
So just asking for even if it's like, hey, I know things are tough right now.
Can I just have a hug?
Or can you just like text me hello or text me good morning, right?
Something that's like manageable, but that gives you that little bit of soothing.
53:41
The other thing that you could do is you can start to do schedule check insurance.
This is for both parties, right?
You can do hey, OK, I know that we're taking space right now or whatever, but can we please check in every Saturday or can we check in every other day or I'm going to text you every day to see how things are going, right?
54:08
Something that's that might not be as frequent as you're looking for, like I want to be texting all the time.
But having that certainty of when you connect might regulate that feeling of anxiety, right?
54:24
It might make you feel OK.
I, I really miss them.
I really feel like insecure about our relationship right now, but I know I'm going to see them or I know I'm going to talk to them this time.
If you're in a relationship, that could be a planned conversation, a planned connection.
Can we go on a walk on Saturday morning together?
54:41
Just you and me just to chat, right?
You know, I'd be like, so we talked about the thing, but like, you'd be like, I, I just, I just want to connect.
So can we, I, I will give you your space, like let's chill.
Let's, let's, let's take a moment.
54:57
But on Saturday, can we take that walk?
So those are the different strategies I would recommend for people with anxious attachment is catching yourself when you're in that, that fight or flight mode, that threat mode.
And then safe haven request asking, you know, can can we check in?
55:19
And you know, just reassure me, just tell me you're here with me and doing that in predictable times.
And then also soothing yourself with attachment security, priming, looking at pictures, watching your favorite movie, connecting with people that you love and feel safe with.
55:37
So that's for people with attachment, anxious attachment, for the people who are emotionally avoidant.
55:45
Building Safe Connections for Avoidant Partners
It's really about how can I connect in small bits, in ways that feel safe.
So first of all, same thing with the ancient attachment.
If you are withdrawing, shutting down, not texting back and you're like, Oh my God, this person's so crazy.
56:02
They keep like they keep, they keep calling me.
You could, you could just say to yourself, I'm, I'm feeling like attachment threat or I'm feeling like my avoidant hackles are up, whatever you want to call it, just labeling that, labeling the feeling of I need to pull away to keep everything safe and then soothing yourself in those moments, right?
56:28
I think the, the most effective thing is actually for both parties, for that person to not just pull away and not say anything, but actually to, to communicate what they need, right?
56:43
It's like the same thing.
If they feel insecure, they feel unsafe, they feel like, Oh my God, this person's trying to, you know, control me.
Or in that moment, you could say to yourself, like, or you could say to that person, Hey, I just need, I just need a few days or I just need an hour of space and then I'll text back, right?
57:07
Plan that reuniting, that reconnecting the reassurance.
Or you could talk about regular check insurance, right?
Give them some certainty, give them some predictability, but also setting your boundaries and being like, I just I, I just need some time alone to calm down and then we can, we can talk about it later, right?
57:31
Knowing, keeping in mind that you pulling away is signaling to them.
I'm abandoning you, right?
You might not mean it.
You might be like, I'm here with you.
I'm just like trying to be quiet so we don't fight, but you can, you can say, Hey, I need my space, but we this is when we can reconnect and this is how.
57:53
And then you could practice what's called micro disclosures, which is when things are a lot calmer.
Then you can start to maybe share something about yourself, like like your guard down a little bit, Tell them like get close to them, share something personal, share something that's meaningful and slowly retrain yourself to say, OK, this closeness is not threatening.
58:21
It's mostly exposure to closeness, right?
So in small bits, sharing something, getting close and then checking in being like, how did that go?
Was I unsafe?
Was I out of control with did they control me?
58:37
Like did they abuse me?
And just saying, OK, you know, maybe this this closeness is safe.
And if not, that's a signal that's not the right relationship for you.
But then also it's really important for both parties to after the whole cycle, after the whole like withdrawal, you know, attachment cycle to come back together and repair from it and talk about it and be like, Hey, I know I was like being intense and clingy.
59:05
I was just, you know, I, my fear of abandonment just like went haywire and I was really, I was really trying to cling to something that felt safe.
So I apologize, but let's talk now because I really would like that, you know, I'd like to connect and know that you're here with me.
59:23
And then for the people who are avoidantly attached, remembering that that reconnection after the withdrawal is really important because that's, that's repairing, right?
That's repairing like, hey, I'm not just pulling away because I don't love you.
59:41
I don't care, but I'm pulling away because that is the way I say safe.
That's my safety mechanism.
So repairing after the fight is super important.
59:51
Mentalizing and Connecting with True Intentions
So in short, that's one of the main reasons why you're chasing unavailable partners.
The first thing is just like people who are unavailable feel more valuable.
Scarcity demand.
Right, But then also the way that you grew up, your learning history taught you that you need to fight and chase and pursue and look out for love.
1:00:20
And when you feel like something, someone's pulling away, that might freak you out, right?
That might make you go, Oh my gosh, I'm losing a really, really important thing.
Maybe you grew up with, you know, unavailable or unreliable caregivers and you're like, Oh no, I learned that I had to, I have to be the squeaky wheel to get the grease.
1:00:41
Meaning like, I have to speak up.
I, I can't just like rest and relax and know that security and love is going to be there, but I have to actually fight for it.
If you come from that kind of background, that childhood, then you are constantly scanning for signs of people who are unavailable and when they're pulling away.
1:01:05
And then you've learned to ramp up your amygdala, your all your life threat systems, and your brain is firing up and you are grabbing for the side of the Cliff to stay alive.
So no, that's what's happening.
But also know that if you're dealing with someone who's emotionally unavailable, then you grabbing onto them for safety is actually the thing that they're scared of the most.
1:01:30
So remember that when everyone's in survival mode, you're not actually connecting.
You're not actually seeing each other.
You might be chasing an unavailable partner, not because of that partner, not because you actually love that person or seeing who they are.
You might just chasing them for your own regulation.
1:01:47
And that's a really big piece for both both sides here is if you're chasing an emotionally unavailable partner, see what it's like to put yourself in their shoes and think about that person and why they're, they're pulling away, right?
1:02:04
See, think about like, are they doing this because they this is what makes them feel safe and calm and good?
And if so, like, how can I respond to that need?
If you have those thoughts, which is called mentalizing, by the way, if you have those thoughts that might actually regulate your threat anxiety, because instead of saying I'm, I'm falling and I need to grip on to the side for security, you're like, OK, how, how is this actually?
1:02:34
How is this mountain actually structured and how, how can we both stay safe, right?
So you're, you're, you're really addressing that this is a person, not just a thing to make you feel better.
So just notice that if you're just chasing the person just for the chase and it doesn't really matter who it is, then that's not going to feel good for them, right?
1:02:55
It's almost like dehumanizing for them.
You're just kind of projecting your own shit onto the to someone else and they're going to feel that.
They're going to feel someone who's that emotionally unavailable partner or whatever is going to feel that you're chasing not for them, but for you.
1:03:13
So you might be fighting for love or fighting for a connection, but that could feel weirdly selfish.
So if you're chasing someone, think of think, am I chasing this person?
Am I really listening and paying attention to their needs and then responding to it, which is important for getting my needs met, which is like a connection, right?
1:03:37
Because you're not going to force someone into connecting with you.
You're you have to treat them as a person, actually connect to the person they are and their needs.
So think to yourself if you are just, you know, like chasing because you're used to running or you're actually running towards something specific.
1:03:57
So that is a little bit of why that we chase emotionally unavailable people because I feel they feel valuable.
And also our programming taught us that that's what we need to do to stay safe.
1:04:13
But maybe you can look at the situation go, maybe that's not what I need to do right now.
Maybe I need to take a step back, take a breather, know that they care about me.
And if they, if I really feel like they don't care about me, and this is not just like what happens in a fight or when things are stressed, then do you really feel safe in this relationship?
1:04:32
Maybe you feel anxiously attached because you're not attached right?
That's valid too.
Or that the way this person loves doesn't make you feel safe perfectly OK too.
So the resources that I would recommend is the whole me type book by Doctor Sue Johnson a couple, but also I I really like this one Wired for love by Stan Tatkin.
1:04:58
Recommended Books and Final Thoughts on Attachment
I haven't read it in a really long time, but I thought it was a nice nice description of breaking down like different kind of partners and if they they call the pursuers waves and the avoidance islands.
1:05:15
So wave fear, fear is being abandoned by the partner feeling being separated doesn't like being alone and the islands feel are scared of being intruded upon or trapped out of control, right blamed.
So those are the two resources that I recommend.
1:05:33
I'd love to hear your comments and questions and requests for new topics.
So if you're listening to this either on Spotify or YouTube, write your thoughts in the comments.
And if you can give us a five star rating on Apple podcast or Spotify and we'll see you next week.
1:05:51
Thank you.
1:05:52
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1:06:15
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1:06:42
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1:07:01
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