Ep. 187-Unpacking the Controversy: BPD vs. CPTSD and the Path to Healing with Kaytlyn Gilner
This episode features a conversation with Kaytlyn Gilner, a mental health advocate and host of the "Not So Dumb Blonde" podcast. We delve into the complexities of complex post traumatic stress disorder (CPTSD) and borderline personality disorder (BPD), exploring the nuances and overlaps between these diagnoses.
If you struggle with intense negative emotions, difficulty with intimacy, low self-esteem, and dissociation, what "diagnosis" should you get? In this episode, Kaytlyn Gilner shares her personal journey of misdiagnosis and the transformative power of Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). Dr. Kibby and Kaytlyn break down the hot controversy over these diagnoses that pushes back on the stigma of BPD. The recent backlash against the "borderline personality disorder" label argues that a diagnosis like "complex PTSD" recognizes the symptoms as trauma responses better.
Dr. Kibby and Kaytlyn discuss the importance of understanding, setting boundaries, and the role of environment in mental health. They also talk about the power of Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), the intensive outpatient treatment that teaches how to regulate emotions and relationships, no matter what diagnosis you have. This episode offers insights into how loved ones can support those struggling with intense emotions, emphasizing the need for empathy and structured support.
Resources:
KulaMind, Dr. Kibby's program to support loved ones of people with emotion dysregulation
Katylyn's Stop Sabotaging Your Relationships (DBT-Inspired Workbook): https://tr.ee/9pKDGhjuNU
Is It an Actual Red Flag or Anxiety? (DBT-Inspired Workbook): https://tr.ee/GrAOWvyh1V
To connect, collaborate, or attend an event with Kaytlyn: https://linktr.ee/kaytlynm
YouTube: NotSoDumbBlondePodcast Instagram: @notsodumbblonde_pod
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Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
Hello, little helpers. Today I have a really interesting episode. And I'm fascinated by it because it touches on a controversy that I am just learning about. And it is a heated debate and discussion in the field of mental health around borderline personality disorder, BPD, and complex PTSD, complex post-traumatic stress disorder. So.
I'm gonna try to summarize the controversy ⁓ for you and I'm just learning it myself. if you have difficulties with emotion regulation, right? Like you have big emotions up and down, a lot of negative emotions. You have problems in your relationships. Maybe you self-harm or you have suicidal thoughts or actions. And you also... ⁓
have dissociation, meaning kind of blank out when things are really, really stressful. Well, to me, I always thought, well, that's a diagnosis of borderline, those are traits and symptoms of borderline personality disorder. But lately I've been seeing that that is sometimes really insulting to some people, really upsetting, because borderline personality disorder has so much stigma around it. And I think people just assume that it means that
you know, that you're broken or wrong or that it's your fault.
So that's the controversy that I'm understanding is that people are really upset by the BPD diagnosis and they want CPTSD or they want the diagnosis being recognized. But at the same time, I think that there are different disorders. Like how do we treat both of them or are they really interchangeable? So I ⁓ talked to Caitlin Gilner who is doing her master's, she's completing her master's in social work.
And she is a mental health advocate and host of not so dumb blonde podcast. she She is so cool because she really Loves to explore women's mental health and trauma and relationship patterns So it's like all the stuff that I love and her work is rooted in both lived experience and her clinical training Again so much overlap and she really is passionate about helping women
understand their emotional expressions, validate themselves, navigate relationship dynamics, and heal from complex trauma. And she's super passionate about breaking the stigma surrounding diagnoses like borderline personality disorder. she talks a lot about CPTSD and how... ⁓
how healing it could be to get that diagnosis, but also she's on board with let's not stigmatize BPD. Let's not say BPD bad, CPTSD good. It's like, let's understand these disorders and figure out what tools can help them. She also creates like really cool practical tools. Like she has a dialectical behavior therapy inspired workbook to help people, especially women apply emotion regulation and self-awareness skills in their daily lives. ⁓
just reached out to me on Instagram, said, hey, we're talking about similar topics. Let's collaborate. So I went on her podcast and she came on this one. And it just led to a lot of really interesting nuance conversations about if you are struggling with relationship problems, emotional problems, association, self-harm, know, like, what do you have? And also does it matter? And what treatments do we want to give them?
So we talk a lot about that, I really appreciated her thoughtfulness about this. And I really resonated with her personal journey of having all these symptoms herself and struggling with it and being in the place of being a teenager and having to be diagnosed with something and then getting some help for herself, getting DBT.
and then loving it so much and seeing how much it could transform people's lives that she's becoming a DBT therapist now. So it's such a inspiring story. really speaks to whatever you have. If you have CPTSD, BPD, whatever acronyms, letters you wanna throw out there. It really is about understanding what you're going through, understanding your experiences, finding the help that you need.
and building a life worth living. Both she and I, both Caitlin and I have been through a lot of childhood trauma. And so we have a lot of these traits, symptoms, whatever you wanna call it in the past, but now we are becoming or are therapists and working with this and helping other people who used to be like us. it was just a really wonderful conversation to have with someone who was also passionate about.
What happens when people fundamentally have a hard time sitting with their feelings or intimacy? ⁓ And if you are listening to this and you have a loved one who is struggling with borderline personality disorder or CPTSD or any other mental health ⁓ problem that is impacting your lives, please look into KulaMind, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com. That is my program.
⁓ for loved ones of people struggling with mental health. And it's where you could work the most with me. do ⁓ skills groups for loved ones. There's community. There's all these different tools. And basically I walk you through the different skills that could be super helpful for loving someone with these conditions, like setting boundaries and validating, taking care of yourself. So if you feel like you need that,
kulamind.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com, and you could just book a call with me and we could talk further about what you need. I hope you enjoy this episode with Caitlin Gilner and check out her podcast, ⁓ Not So Dumb Blonde podcast, after this, after you listen to this episode. Enjoy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
⁓ I have an editor, so if you're like, whoops, don't want to, blah, blah, blah, we're going to cut all this out. All ⁓ right. Just let me know when you're ready. I will get started. Cool. Welcome back, little helpers. Today we have a really special guest. Her name is Caitlin, and she is
Kaytlyn Gilner (00:10)
Amazing.
Yeah, I'm ready.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:29)
Are you doing your, your, your masters? You're like, you're in your masters. ⁓ my God. my God. So Caitlin is getting a master's in social work and she is a mental health advocate and the host of not so dumb blonde podcast where she explores women's mental health, trauma and relationship patterns. So we have a lot of overlap and what we're passionate about and
Kaytlyn Gilner (00:32)
Yes, I'm finishing it in my last year. I know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:55)
I'm so excited to, yeah, I mean, so excited that you reached out and, you know, we're having these conversations because we're talking today about complex PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder and borderline personality disorder. Hot topic that I had no idea about until I got online as an old lady being like, how do I TikTok? And I'm just, I just really wanna understand the controversy around it, what's going on,
Kaytlyn Gilner (00:59)
Damn.
What?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:25)
Why do we hate one and like the other? Why are they the same? Why are they different? So ⁓ I'll just lob it to you. What is your perspective on CPTSD and borderline personality disorder, BPD?
Kaytlyn Gilner (01:30)
Totally.
Yeah, I
mean, I'm so excited to talk about this because like you, I mean, this is something that I've seen circulating around everywhere. I've seen so many people talk about it. And sometimes I just feel like it's important to talk about because I feel like sometimes we're just missing the point. And really my is mostly rooted in both lift and clinical training. So ⁓ how it came about for me and just a little bit of background story as to why I'm like passionate about this and why, like how I view the scenario.
around 14, I was repeatedly misdiagnosed with things like BPD and bipolar disorder and ADHD. Nobody really understood what to do, but you have to remember I was like between 12 and 14 years old. That's a really early time to diagnose someone, right? And what's really interesting is that nobody was asking what was happening behind closed doors. It was actually me experiencing significant trauma and I just didn't have the support that I needed. So what I did was is I really started internalizing that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:25)
Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (02:40)
was the problem. And I think that that's a common theme. And I think that that's why this is such a hot topic. Right. And it just kind of made me feel like there was something fundamentally wrong with me and that, you know, followed me for a while throughout early adulthood until I got into therapy and DBT, which I'm sure we'll dive into because we both love it. And that's kind of how I really got into this because a big part of my transformation was learning the practical tools and just really diving into that and making sure
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:49)
.
Kaytlyn Gilner (03:10)
that, so when I was little, told myself, was like, when I grow up, I'm gonna help people like me. I'm gonna help women like me not feel misunderstood, right? And feel confident in how they feel without feeling like they need to change it or there's something wrong with them or they're too sensitive. So very long explanation to say.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:11)
Thank
Thank you.
Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (03:31)
The whole BPD and CBTSD diagnosis, I think kind of goes back to that. When I was younger and I heard them talking to my mother in the waiting room, they said, you don't want her to have that diagnosis, it'll ruin her life. And yes, it'll ruin her life. Nobody will wanna work with her. She's not gonna, so as a young kid hearing that, I mean, I was like, I'm not normal.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:38)
Thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (03:56)
I became like agoraphobic, I wouldn't leave the house, I was bullied. I mean, I fundamentally thought there was something wrong with me, so.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:02)
Thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (04:03)
Part of that,
right, is breaking the stigmatization of what BPD really is and recognizing that BPD is real, and so is CPTSD. While they're separate, there's a lot of overlap. So while diagnosing can be helpful for some people, it's not always helpful for everyone. But just ensuring that we kind of know the difference and also just have some, I guess, humanness and gentleness around the topic, I think is important.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:15)
Thank
Yeah,
yeah, wow. Tell me a little bit about whatever you're comfortable sharing. What did that feel like and look like for you from 12 to 14? Like, or that time period where?
Kaytlyn Gilner (04:35)
Sure.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly,
I was just I was highly isolated. I, ⁓ you know, I had a bit of a chaotic. ⁓
family life and home life and there were some things going on. So basically I just, kind of took the brunt of it all and took it on as like, I'm too sensitive. Like there's something fundamentally wrong with the way my brain works. And that was kind of ingrained in me at a very, very young age, right? ⁓ And so yeah, I mean, those were some of the feelings that were kind of coming across. And like I said, I just remember being like, when I grow up, I'm going to help other adults. ⁓
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:51)
I'm going to it at
Thank you.
Kaytlyn Gilner (05:20)
and you know women who are going through this because I just I knew it was wrong I still knew it was wrong.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,
that makes sense. mean, I had a very similar background. I'm sorry we didn't talk about this before, but I also had, you know, like, chaotic, dysregulated household with a lot of addiction, a lot of pain, and my mom and I were fighting all the time, and I would fight with my boyfriends, and then I would self-harm because I didn't know what to do with all these feelings. And I...
that time, a teenager, probably looked like, no, I did. I probably met criteria for most of the BPD traits. I was young and my therapist said, yeah, you would have met criteria for a lot of the traits, but you know, like, whatever. ⁓ And now it's a little bit different. So yeah. ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (06:15)
See you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:22)
How, do you resonate more with the CPTSD diagnosis or tell me, well, first of all, tell people listening, what are the different disorders? ⁓ How do you think about them?
Kaytlyn Gilner (06:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I
know I went off on a whole rant earlier, but really. you know.
I had seen a lot of things on TV too about like Jodie Arias is a perfect example. I don't know if you've heard of her. She had killed her boyfriend and they were like, she has borderline personality disorder. same with Amber Heard, right? And so I had felt like I resonated with some of the traits when I was younger. so seeing those headlines, was like, my gosh, it's happening again. Like there's something wrong with me. But I had gone through the work. I did dialectical behavioral therapy. I don't meet the criteria, but I
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:45)
Thank
you
Thank ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (07:12)
I can understand the criteria. I understand it and there are some things that I can resonate with on a much lower level now.
Just that's when I was told by the one therapist that actually listened to me She said you have CPTSD you do not have BPD like at all and I was like, what is CPTSD and It changed my life because it gave me the confidence because I was like I'm not Disordered, you know, I'm not disordered I I am I went through stuff that I didn't deserve to go through and I'm trying to adapt and learn how to Live with tools that look much different
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:39)
Yeah.
close.
Kaytlyn Gilner (07:51)
from individuals who don't suffer from that much trauma, right? But we live in a society where we're not rewarded for that or for being highly sensitive. And so that was a huge awakening for me. And that's kind of what kickstarted my whole journey into therapy and doing the work and learning tools that really work and ⁓ seeing that healing is really possible because a lot of times people, mean, the messages for individuals with BPD, which is not accurate, the research fundamental disproves this, but it's that you cannot be
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:01)
Thank
Thank
So,
you don't need to.
Kaytlyn Gilner (08:21)
Cured or treated
it's not true. It's very very treatable and so Another long way to answer your question is you know that there there are differences. There's a lot of overlap CPTSD is complex post-traumatic stress disorder chronic post-traumatic stress disorder, right? So a lot of times individuals with CPTSD one of the common traits is that they don't know when their trauma began and when it ended there's no like beginning or end to
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:34)
Thank you
Kaytlyn Gilner (08:51)
It's kind of like this is just how it always was. So that's like a very common theme with a CPTSD, right? And the difference I would say as they have a lot of the similar traits of, know, the hypervigilance, the kind of roller coaster relationships, some of that feelings of emptiness or sometimes paranoia, but CPTSD has a little bit more of an avoidance to it, a more of a numbing out. And BPD has that very core trait of abandonment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:14)
Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (09:21)
It's very much abandonment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:24)
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. ⁓ What for you resonate? Like, I'm so glad you found the diagnosis that, you know, gave you that feeling. I mean, it's I'm I'm a little I'm like, I'm having all these thoughts. I'm just like, why can't people feel that way when they get a BPD diagnosis? Like what? Like when you're like, ⁓ it's a disorder. It's something that happened to me. It's not my fault. I'm like, yeah.
Same with BPD, right? you know, it's, mean, again, like I'm saying this more and more now, but I feel like I was really, really privileged with being in research and clinical centers where everyone was like, yeah, BPD, we know what it is. Totally fine, totally treatable, not a bad thing. And that's not the case. So what about the CPTSD,
Kaytlyn Gilner (09:54)
down.
Yup.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:20)
diagnosis, like when you talk to your therapist, what was it that went, this feels more like me? Or is it just kind of recasting of the experiences you were having into a different label? ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (10:33)
Yeah, now that's such a good question. Before I answer that,
I want to go back to what you said because we kind of touched on this the other day too is...
Yeah. Why can't individuals who do get a DPD diagnosis have that same feeling, right? Of like, it's not their fault. And it is because of the stigmatization online, but it also starts with having these conversations like what we're having now and being like, you know, I mentioned to you the other day, ⁓ you know, we had had a little bit of a side conversation and it was, I've been told, you know, on the internet that using the term BPD just in general is offensive to even say that. And to me, I'm,
that as like, a minute, that's part of the stigmatization is treating BPD like a dirty word or a dirty thing to say. It's not, it's absolutely not. ⁓ But you know, for individuals who may resonate with some of those traits as we know, and as the research shows is that shame is a huge part of it. Shame fuels a lot of BPD as well, right? And some of the reactions. So for me, getting the CBTSD diagnosis, having been told, you know, basically my whole adult
lessons
that like they're you you're not normal kind of thing. It kind of just made me feel just validated like the experience I went through the experiences I went through as a child because I think us as women we feel oftentimes there's a societal pressure to just minimize everything and like keep it all together and not like talk about those things right or when we do talk about it. It's like keep it light-hearted. Don't make anybody feel uncomfortable and having that told to me was like wait a minute. No, you did experience
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:45)
I'm sorry.
Kaytlyn Gilner (12:09)
trauma and you can't kind of you can't like deny that anymore that's something you have to look at and kind of accept you can't keep pushing it down because that's part of the problem it's accepting that like you kind of lived a life that you didn't really want to like you probably wouldn't have chosen to live in if you had the choice
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:13)
you
Yeah. What
is it like to have to accept that? I mean, I imagine like there's part of it that feels really freeing or validating, but at the same time, that could come with like a whole shift in the way you were seeing yourself and your childhood. Like, what was it like to be like, you have trauma, you've been through trauma.
Kaytlyn Gilner (12:49)
Yeah.
There was a lot of grief. There was a lot of mourning of the life that I didn't...
have that I didn't realize was abnormal until I got a little bit older and realized and saw some of my other friends and you start mourning this idea of like what you could have had or you know looking back for me I'm like I remember very few moments of like having that childhood feeling and it was before the age of 12 and that is sad you know not being a kid but ⁓ it came with liberation for me to be honest because I found DBT
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:06)
you
Kaytlyn Gilner (13:27)
I'm and that's why you know for listeners. I don't know if we said this earlier I am getting my master's in social work, and I am on the road of becoming a therapist I'm going to be working. Yep, and a DBT clinic here starting in the fall. I'm very passionate about it Yes, and it's because it changed my life It's not just because I chose DBT because it's you know the gold standard for BPD and what I I also think it's great for CPTSD Despite what some things are circulating online ⁓ so that gave me hope ⁓ and
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:40)
Cool.
Kaytlyn Gilner (13:57)
And it kind of gave me the tools to not... Before there was a little bit of like a victim complex of like, why is everything happening to me? And then having that realization was like, wait, I can take the power into my own hands now. Like I can do this.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:02)
Thank
Wow, that's
amazing. it's, it's, I also have been thinking about this, you know, can BPD or CPT, can any of these problems actually change, right? So, you know, especially people who struggling with it, especially people online are like, can this be treated? Is this curable? And you're giving such a beautiful example of like, yeah, there's a lot that can change.
All right, it's getting the right diagnosis, right understanding of what you went through, the tools, the empowerment, like I can do something about this. Do you have a moment in DBT or skill that was like, ⁓ the light bulb moment or?
Kaytlyn Gilner (14:58)
100 % I think about it all the time. And before I say I
just want to say one other thing like this idea of needing to be cured or healed or fixed.
One of the messages that I'm pushing in my mission is to make sure that people know and in particular women, cause that's my target. That's who I mainly work with. You don't need to be fixed. ⁓ goodness. Sorry. My dog's barking. You don't need to be fixed. Like even if there are patterns and behaviors that you would like to work on to be healthy and express your emotions healthily, how you're feeling. And even if it resembles traits of borderline personality disorder or yet disorder thinking, there's nothing
wrong
with it. You don't need to fix it. However, if you want to have healthy relationships, you have to change how you express how you are feeling. And that is just the way it is, you know, and the choice is yours. But I don't want people to feel like there needs to be a cure or there doesn't. But going back to your point with DBT, opposite action, mean, hands down, because for me, I'm very
you
I always have like a thousand to-do lists and I'm like the self-aware girlie who's like doing yoga and it becomes a lot when you're like, okay, I'm going to add a new skill that I'm going to try to learn. so for me, opposite action, what I think is so beautiful about it is that it's not, it doesn't feel like an extra thing I have to add onto my, my, my, ⁓ self care routine. It's just in the moment, just flipping one mindset to another. And it really did change my life because you know, when I was younger,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:07)
you
you
Kaytlyn Gilner (16:37)
I definitely leaned a little bit more on the anxious side, right? And, you know, as a highly sensitive person, of course, and, you know, perceiving the emotions of other people when you're highly sensitive can be hard. a lot of people's reactions are either to withdraw or to, you know, try to pursue or soothe or fix. And so I just remember one day and
Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:46)
or no.
Thank you.
Kaytlyn Gilner (17:03)
And this was before I actually got DBT training. I just was like, I'm just going to do the opposite. Like I'm tired of what I've been doing. I exhausted myself. was like, this just, it's just not working like anymore. And I just remember being like, okay, instead of like reaching out or trying to soothe or fix the situation or people, please, I'm just going to sit back. I'm going to do the opposite. And I had immediate results from that. And so it was very easy to continue doing it. It didn't feel like work.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:06)
Thank
this year.
Kaytlyn Gilner (17:33)
It was like, that actually got me to my desired place.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:38)
Cool. What would you say immediately worked? What can people expect from... So for people who don't know about opposite action, there's, when you have emotions, they make you want to do something, right? Like anxiety makes you want to run away and anger. I was an anger girl, makes you want to fight. And it's about just literally doing the opposite of what that emotion is telling you. ⁓ What worked? When you sat back, what happened?
Kaytlyn Gilner (17:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, here's the whole thing, right? Like if you have complex trauma or borderline personality disorder or BPD traits, there is a common paradox between wanting to push people away and also wanting them close to you at the same time. And so like you mentioned having that, that feeling of anger, right? What's really happening is there's, there's fear and there's wanting to be vulnerable, but instead anger's coming out. And so that's pushing someone away, which
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:10)
.
you
Kaytlyn Gilner (18:37)
perpetuates exactly what most individuals don't want and what they're trying to avoid. And so when I say it worked, I mean, I took a step back and I was like, you know what? I don't have to have control over this moment. I'm going to survive regardless. Like I'll be okay. I'm going to sit back and immediately, you know, my partner and I, and I remember when this was, was in 2017. It's been a long ride. but 2017, I was just like my partner, he came to me in like a very,
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:02)
from.
Kaytlyn Gilner (19:06)
calm way and it just naturally was a healthy conversation and we got stronger afterwards and it was the first time in my life I ever experienced that and so to see like wait this is possible like this is possible you don't have to push people away or be angry to get your point across and I didn't know that because I never had anyone respect my feelings or my boundaries
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
that's super cool. I'm so glad. Are you still with him or is, or was that someone in the past? Well, still, like, thank you. Thank all of our teachers for all along the way. That's wonderful.
Kaytlyn Gilner (19:33)
No. No. He was great. Yeah. I learned a ton from him though. I
really did. He was great.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:46)
Yeah,
I'm still working on this, one major shift in my attachment, you know, like my fear of abandonment kind of stuff, after a while you forget that you have a fear of abandonment, like you're so good at like being self, you know, self-sufficient and whatever, that I didn't realize that I was getting so upset around one of my husband's
would be sad or would be anxious or just be quiet. Like he would just be not, you know, maybe just in a mood and I would just freak out. I'm like, what is going on? Are you mad at me? And I just didn't realize that I had the assumption that it means that he hates me. He's going to leave me and this is all over. And not realizing that that core fear was like bubbling up.
I was like, huh, you know, trying to, was leaning into, was having thoughts of like, okay, fine, what is it like if we divorce and how am I gonna do this? ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (20:52)
immediately just a workplace,
right? Already bought a plane ticket to New York, I'm moving away. Yeah, I get it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:55)
So just learned to sit back and be like, you can be in a mood. I'm like, packing my bags. All right.
Wow,
that's really incredible. And what has it been like ⁓ learning how to do DBT and work with these? Do you see a difference from a clinician side, the difference between CPTSD and BPD, or do they really feel like interchangeable, or what do you think?
Kaytlyn Gilner (21:25)
I mean, that's the
million dollar question. I think that there is no black and white answer and I'm going to tie DBT into that because that's really how I look at it is that there's really no cut in dry black and white answer. It really can be very confusing to tell. And I think that it's important to note that, right? Because the research shows that a large majority of individuals with BPD have significant trauma, right? you know, and then there's also the opportunity
to be diagnosed with both. And so how I view it now being more on the clinician side is kind of like I mentioned before is I view, and this goes based off of something I didn't mention is CPTSD is an official diagnosis in the ICD-11. I hope it's ICD and not IDC. I think it's ICD-11. The International Diagnostic Criteria, it exists there, right? It doesn't exist in our criteria here, the one that we use, the DSM-5.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:58)
Thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (22:25)
I think that that's where it gets a little confusing is like they kind of are somewhat interchangeable. And in my opinion, aside from a few different things, but the reason why is because I don't have CPTSD in the DSM, which is another thing that I'm advocating for a lot is because I do think it's important to have for proper treatment for proper diagnosis and stigma to have both of them there so that we can properly decide what is what and what you know,
feel like they fit with the most.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. I'm
wondering, there ⁓ is treatment for, I mean, a lot of this, a lot of like diagnosis, I mean, like, I don't know how you feel, but I'm like, whatever, who cares about the diagnosis, right? Like, it's just a checklist. mean, whatever, it doesn't capture the whole person, it doesn't capture what they're struggling with.
It's even crazy that you could have someone who was like self-harming and having huge anger explosions, but that's only two traits. And if they don't have anything else, they don't have a diagnosis. ⁓ But I always thought about diagnosis as a ⁓ signal for, what treatment do we choose? And there's really good PTSD, trauma-related disorder treatments, prolonged exposure, CPT, ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (23:37)
exactly.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:56)
cognitive processing therapy, and then there's DBT, right? How do you, if someone, ⁓ patient comes to you, they're having relationship problems, emotion problems, you know, they've had a hard life. Where do you, where do you go? What do you, you know, what do you, diagnosis or treatment plan do you go for?
Kaytlyn Gilner (24:12)
Yeah.
I
mean, so for me personally, I'm a huge believer and kind of like what you said as well. It's like treating the symptoms so that someone can live the life that they want to live. The diagnosis sometimes is helpful for some people and for others, it's absolutely not, right? My number one thing is never diagnosing someone with...
especially borderline personality disorder, but really anything without talking them about what's happening in their environment. And that's social work 101, right? Like in my training, it's all about assessing the person in their environment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:42)
Hmm.
Kaytlyn Gilner (24:50)
I have found that some clinicians just go immediately to diagnosing and I personally find that to be problematic because it's really hard to sum up someone's personality and what's happening in one session or two or even three. It takes time and especially if you're diagnosing someone with borderline personality disorder.
It's labeled as disordered thinking. How do you know that without assessing long-term patterns and looking at what's happening in their environment? So for me, that's where I start is what's happening in your life right now. Do you have a partner? What does that look like? know, are you, how is that relationship? How is your home life currently? What is going on that has brought you here and kind of diving into that more, because one thing that I found is a lot of times people don't know that it's their current environment. just, especially
women and that's kind of why I have this podcast and why I jumped into wanting to become a therapist in the first place is that you know it's common for women to internalize things and blame themselves and sometimes we need and it doesn't mean that they don't need to take accountability I mean I I used to get very angry I still have a temper but I learned how to manage it and you know but
It's really about being like, yes, you do have a lot of things to work on and there's also things happening in your environment. can't, you can't really heal in an environment that's making you sick. And so that's something that that's kind of where I start. That's where I want. like to focus and particularly dbt. just think, I think dbt is great for everyone. It's tied to BPD because Marsha Linehan and how it was funded, the research and all of that. But I would love to advocate for dbt as much as I can to kind of spread the awareness that
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:04)
you
Thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (26:31)
It's a wonderful tool for everyone, not just for people who have trauma or BPD.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:34)
Thank you.
Yeah,
yeah, that makes total sense. ⁓ That's so interesting and starting with the environment. ⁓ How does that change the way you see what their diagnosis is? Because I'm thinking, if they have certain behaviors, let's say they are self-harming, they're lashing out, they dissociate, all the things.
If they're currently in an abusive or troubling environment or not, I still would probably, the diagnosis might be similar, right? The environment might explain what's going on, but I'm like, yeah, you know, they have it. They probably went through something hard another time or it's in bad fit. So how do you think about that environment about like whether something's going on that they're reacting to versus like,
Nothing's going on. It's actually my partner and family and home life are great.
Kaytlyn Gilner (27:34)
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I always like to ask, like, what was it like before? So like, if the relationship is problematic and if things are going on, sorry, my dog is, he's a cutie patoo, but he definitely needs a lot of attention. so it's more for me, like, you know, if they do have a chaotic dynamic or relationship that they're in or their home life or whatever's going on, what was it like before? Like kind of going back to trying to assess some of that as well. But no, you're right. Like, you're right. And that's what I think is really
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:49)
So cute.
Kaytlyn Gilner (28:11)
important for everyone to know is that as clinicians and we are also humans like there we don't have the like we don't there is no absolute truth right our job is to support clients and their healing and and get them to help them get to where they want to go right so I think that
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:29)
So, thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (28:31)
that's really
what matters the most. And at times the diagnosis still does fit. mean, especially if it's been pervasive over a long period of time. But I typically think that if trauma was involved, it says too, like in the DSM-5 that someone should not be diagnosed with BPD if it can be better explained by something else, right? By another diagnosis, right? And so that's kind of where I look at the CPTSD thing. And again, it's not because I think BPD, there's anything wrong with it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:35)
Thank
Thank
Kaytlyn Gilner (29:01)
just think that it has been so stigmatized that it's so important for individuals to, ⁓ I wanna make sure they feel seen and heard, especially if they've experienced trauma.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:12)
Right, right.
That totally makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, it's tough. It makes me rethink everything because I always see the BBD diagnosis as good. I maybe I just have had so many experiences where I mean, our whole clinic was like, you know, love people with it, like even obsessed with it. And it's like. ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (29:35)
Absolutely, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:39)
Sometimes it could be relieving. ⁓ I've seen it be relieving to get the diagnosis because they thought they had ADHD and they thought they had substance use and eating disorder and depression and they had like 10 different disorders and to like make it into one, ⁓ you have intense emotions and it's really hard to manage them. But it's sad that that still
has this like implied sense of this is who you are and not a reaction to the environment or trauma. I have a hard time like, you know, I have a hard time dealing with that.
Kaytlyn Gilner (30:16)
Exactly.
Yeah.
yeah, just accepting that it is like who they are. Like it's just.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:25)
I just have
a hard time accepting that a CPTSD would have more of a validating like this is a reaction to the environment than BPD. Like I just don't like how people would feel that BPD is like you are, it's a you problem and not something that you went through. I'm like, oh my God.
Kaytlyn Gilner (30:44)
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, no. And
I agree. And I will say too that, you you're right. A lot of times people who do end up getting a BPD diagnosis have been misdiagnosed their whole life. And so to have an answer of like, wait, oh my gosh, like we know, we know what's going on can be very, very helpful, you know, for a lot of people. I think, you know, where the...
The, for me, on the flip side, something that I think about a lot as well as having these diagnoses can sometimes affect women in a lot of other ways, right? So imagine you're in a marriage and you're going through a divorce and you have BPD on your, like as your diagnosis. what I, the reason why I have a problem with it is that might affect.
decisions in the divorce process. Unfortunately, same with bipolar disorder, but when you throw BPD out there and that's unfortunate and that's kind of like the point that I think, you know, a lot of people are trying to get at is like, yeah, it shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't, but we live in a society still where we're working through breaking down some of those barriers. And so I think that that's an example I think about a lot, like getting custody of their children.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:47)
Great.
Hmm. That's interesting.
That's really shitty.
Kaytlyn Gilner (32:01)
having that diagnosis, for
example, going to the doctor, it's already research already shows that it takes women on average 10 visits more than men to actually be diagnosed with something other than it being psychological in their in their head. So when a doctor pulls up your charts and they see that you have this diagnosis again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I think it can be very helpful, but I just think it's important to be careful with stuff like that. It can be shown and that can
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:28)
Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (32:30)
affect how someone receives care.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:34)
Yeah, that
makes sense. That's such an unfortunate part about society, where it's like if people don't understand, BPD on a chart can be like, be careful of this one. ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (32:46)
Yeah. yeah. And for example,
you I had therapists say to me, you know, I was kind of like you, I mentioned, but I, you know, I feel like I used to resonate with all these and she was like, you know, you might have in the past. And then she said,
But I would toss that out, you're too self-aware for that. People who have, you know, they're not self-aware. Even in my daily work with therapists that I work with or people in the field, even though the intentions are good, even statements like that are like, no, you couldn't. You're too self-aware for that. So like, you know what I mean? There's just that thing that goes around. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:08)
you
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Imply that people with
BBD don't have self-awareness, which they often don't, but that's really, yeah, got it. As a emotionally sensitive person, what is it like to be a DBT therapist or working with this population? It's hard.
Kaytlyn Gilner (33:31)
Right, yeah, exactly, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it's highly rewarding because I think that also, know, individuals with BPD structure is really helpful for them. And that's what I love about DBT is how structured it is and having the ⁓
For me, I kind of look at it as more of like classwork or coursework, right? When you're doing it the traditional way, you're going through modules, you're not really, you're not processing trauma. You're actually just navigating like, what are we gonna do with this trauma? How are we gonna effectively manage it in our everyday lives? So for me, I think it's very rewarding to see people start in practicing tools in real time immediately. And so to me, that's been very beautiful. And that's kind of why I've also created my own ⁓
quick dialectical behavioral therapy inspired workbook for individuals just so that you know if they don't if they don't have the ability to dedicate that time or maybe you know it can be hard to find a therapist in real time just having some tools to kind of work through in real time when you're trying to speak up and get your needs met in particular in relationships or set boundaries in a way that feels safe I just think it it's really it's really helpful
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:04)
That's awesome. I'm definitely going to link that workbook
to the show notes. So look for the description. That's super cool. I mean, it is such a shame how hard it is to actually get good DBT in general, right? Like, it's weird because the skills itself are everywhere online, but to actually get DBT, you know, from a DBT therapist in a full model is different. Can you explain the differences about like...
Kaytlyn Gilner (35:10)
Please do! I would love that!
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:33)
Googling a chat or chat GPT versus like going to an actual like DBT therapist or
Kaytlyn Gilner (35:36)
I'm so good. Yes.
Yes, and so I'm you know, I'm getting trained in DBT. I'm I'm My work is based off of DBT, but I'm not certified in DBT yet. That's a long feat that takes a lot of time I'm sure as you know, so ⁓ But when you're you know, you're looking into chat DBT chat DBT is giving you tools to practice right which is which is great traditional DBT marsha lenahan style is group therapy and individual therapy at the same time and so ⁓ The group therapy I think is a really beautiful
aspect of it because it really helps validate individuals who are having these experiences to know that they are not alone. But it's also just much more structured. And so when you're just going to chat GBT and trying to get advice or looking up yourself, I still think it's helpful. But when you're going to like a weekly class, it's kind of like a class, the group therapy and you're practicing it in real time. It's integrating it in real time and it's structured and it's not something that you just do for a week or two. These modules and the
way that I did it at the clinic that I had experience and where I'm going to be at actually in the fall is you know three different modules and each of them were three months long and so it's it's it's good because it gives you several months of working through something and getting that practice just like you would getting a degree or course in school ⁓ and so that's what I find to be particularly special and helpful about DVT.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:09)
That's interesting. Three modules, three months long each. Nine months. So one cycle for you is nine months. we're just doing it.
Kaytlyn Gilner (37:18)
Yes. individuals can do like, for example,
some individuals might just do three months, they might just do one module. Some of them might do two, obviously it's recommended to do three because they're all different. there's the three, ⁓ there's the three different ⁓ DBT kind of like core skills. It's mindfulness, emotional regulation. And so, and then also we're talking about
the actual distress tolerance tools, right? And so they're all going to be going over a different portion. So it's not little, it's a lot of work.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:58)
didn't hear. That's interesting to hear how different clinics do it. We had like a six month thing because we did like mindless between each ones and yeah. So, huh, that's cool.
Kaytlyn Gilner (38:04)
Okay.
Yeah, every
clinic does it differently and I think it's also, it depends on the clinic, it depends on the person. Some clinics require you're doing individual therapy at the same time, some clinics do not. But I think one of the, and I'm sure as you know too, one of the core attributes of DBT is doing that group therapy aspect of it. And that's very, very different than the individual therapy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:31)
What about, going back to the CPTSD versus BPD, how do you know when a patient needs trauma treatment? I remember this in DBT where sometimes they would be working with us in the DBT program, and then it was like, no, I think we need to...
Kaytlyn Gilner (38:39)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:00)
you know, take a break and do trauma treatment. ⁓ How do you have you dealt with that yet? Or are you?
Kaytlyn Gilner (39:04)
Absolutely.
I haven't dealt with that too much,
but I'm very much aware of what you're talking about. And it's something that people bring up a lot too on my platform. It's like.
You know, DBT I think is great. But everybody's different and how they operate and what works for them. And DBT, like I said, is not focusing on what has happened to them. It's just kind of skipping over that being like, this is what we're going to do with it now, which is a totally different way of, you know, treatment for some individuals. It is really important to actually go through and process the trauma and process what they've gone through. I've seen a lot of people, you know, EMDR with DBT, I've seen very, very helpful because it helps kind of process some of that trauma.
and give them the tools at the same time. So I definitely don't want it to come across like, know, it's, DBT is perfect, it's a one size fit all for everyone, you don't need anything else. No, no, no, no. But if you haven't tried it yet, I think that it, you know, I'm just a major advocate for people, you know, trying out different things and seeing what works for them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:05)
Yeah,
that's really interesting. Doing it both at the same time, that would be so much therapy, and that would be a lot. That would be like all the feels all the time. I mean, that would be intense.
Kaytlyn Gilner (40:12)
What?
what that would be very
intense, like very intense. And you know, sometimes that needs to be done before coming to DBT, right? Like it's kind of hard to know, you know, how to navigate and work through these things in your everyday life when you haven't fully processed some of the things that have happened. So I think that's definitely going to be dependent upon, you know, the clinician and the patient and what, you know, works best in that unique environment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:42)
Yeah.
What comes up for you? I think we were talking about this before in different conversation, but what comes up for you when you work with these patients? Any of your old stuff for the counter transfer or whatever you want to call it. What is it like? I hear very rewarding, which yes, totally agree. What else does it feel like to work with this population?
Kaytlyn Gilner (40:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's like it is ⁓ and this is one thing that has been said by, ⁓ you know, when researching through like what DBT is and through Marsha Linehan's ⁓ through her work.
is it's recognized that in the therapeutic relationship between the client and the clinician, they're shining a mirror on one another. And so it requires both work on the clinician and on the patient because, and I think we talked about this briefly before too, a lot of people with BPD are highly perceptive and they speak their mind and these are wonderful traits, right? ⁓ But it can be challenging because
you're
not, you're in a very different dynamic there. And then two, the other part of it is, therapists we always want to help and it's not always.
that simple, you know, it's not, it's not a clear path upward either. Sometimes healing is not always straight up. Sometimes it's a little bit like this, you know, so it can be a little bit challenging in that, in that regard. ⁓ but I think it's just, you know, recognizing and also ensuring that I'm checking my, my bias at the door, you know, during these relationships is crucial.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:32)
Yeah, that makes so much sense. It's like flashing back to all the different patients that I've worked with where it was actually like, ⁓
Your sound is gone.
Kaytlyn Gilner (42:47)
can you hear me now? Also, wait really quick. Can you hear my dog this whole time? He's losing it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:47)
There it is. Yeah, I can't.
He's
like, I hear a little growling in the background, but I'm pretty sure we could like take it out, you know? Yeah, yeah, Totally.
Kaytlyn Gilner (42:57)
Okay, can I just take one second and move him just so that neither one of us are distracted? Okay, just one second.
Yes, I'm assuming we can edit that. We can hopefully edit that out. I'm so sorry. I mean, he literally, it's only when I get on a call. But okay, I'm ready. Keep going.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:20)
They know. They
know. I was just thinking back about the different patients that... My bias is still like, these are different disorders, CPTSD and BPD, but that might be... I'm biased because I can think... When I look back on my caseload, I'm like, okay, that person had BPD and that person has CPTSD.
and they don't feel the same, but maybe that's just, I mean, I read a research paper that said that people with PTSD have more dissociation and like low mood, but they're more stable. And I was like, yeah, there were people who were more, they were diagnosed with PTSD. They definitely had motion dysregulation, numbing, as you were saying, problems with the relationships, but it was a lot more like very stable.
but almost like too stable. It was like, shut down. don't, you know, I do my stuff. I feel really lonely, ⁓ but I can't get close to people. And when I do, it's really scary, ⁓ but I'm just bummed out all the time. And then like, would feel this, I would feel their dissociation. Dissociation is like so... ⁓
Kaytlyn Gilner (44:36)
Yes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:43)
it's so contagious that especially when I was working in person with them, I would feel kind of a little spacey myself, but working with what I would think of as BPD patients, were, it felt more like, I'm more, I don't want to say this in a bad way, but it felt more like being with a kid, right? It was like everything was on the surface. There was lots of up and down that it, there was like a tenderness. There was, I was pulled in. I wanted to hug them, right? There was a lot more like,
Kaytlyn Gilner (45:03)
Sure.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:14)
I don't know, sparkling note
or something, but I don't know what your, I'm just.
Kaytlyn Gilner (45:18)
Yeah. Yeah, I think what
comes up for me, I want to make sure, too, that I'm being clear that I don't think that they're the same. I just think that they're misdiagnosed a lot. But I think it's that. Yeah, right. It's like, again, we're all.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:28)
Yeah. Maybe they are the same. I don't know. Like, you know what? Anyway, continue.
Kaytlyn Gilner (45:38)
This is a big controversy, you know, and so we don't have, it's not black and white. We don't have all of the answers, but you know, there, there is research, um, that shows that around 40 to 50 % of individuals with BPD also meet the criteria for CPTSD. And I, one of the fundamental things that I've seen be a difference that I kind of stick to is the identity piece, because individuals with BPD, a core trait is having changing identities, right? Typically around who they're with or what's going on in their life, or maybe they're not fully in touch with.
you know who they are, their value system, and that fluctuates and changes as to where with CPTSD that core sense of identity and who they are is kind of in place throughout. ⁓ And then you also hit the nail on the head as well too, like from my opinion and my thoughts on it is also just a little bit more of that avoidance piece, numbing out ⁓ is more a trait of what I've seen in CPTSD as opposed to DBT, or sorry, ⁓ BP.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:37)
There's
so many letters.
Kaytlyn Gilner (46:40)
What am I saying now? So yeah, I agree and that's also that's just you know, my opinion as well and just things that I've seen around and the research but again, there's just so much there's so much nuance to it and also it is just kind of like as long as individuals are getting the help that they need and the treatment that they need, you know
It's, I think we're missing the point having this debate on whether or not something should be BPD or CPDSD, right? Because it's kind of like we just treating the symptoms and getting the help and the correct treatment is the most important thing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:18)
Totally, totally. It's you moving into one of my favorite topics, what loved ones can do. Let's say if you're listening, you you don't have these symptoms of any of the letters that were thrown out there, but you know someone in your life who is struggled with emotions. Maybe they, you know, go really up and down to press them happy and they push you away. They pull you in like what?
Kaytlyn Gilner (47:36)
you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:48)
from your personal experience or clinical experience, what can loved ones do? Like it's a hard position to be in.
Kaytlyn Gilner (47:55)
Yeah.
I think one of the most beautiful things loved ones can do for their partner and for themselves is have boundaries. And I think it's really hard because I think a lot of times, especially individuals who are in particularly romantic relationships or familiar relationships with individuals who might be struggling with this, can feel like wrong to set boundaries, right? But in reality, boundaries are one of the most helpful things for individuals with BPD. so ⁓ I think taking care of yourself first and
with kindness and with love, also recognizing that you can understand your partner's pain and still have boundaries around how things work for you as well as important. And then on the flip side, I think just.
not taking things so personally all the time from the person who's struggling it, right? Because I think as humans, it's really common for us to take things. I mean, it's about up. assume everything's about us. And if someone's acting out, it's really difficult to not be like, wait, this, this isn't me. Like this is this person, they're going through war in their head right now and they don't know how to handle it. It's really hard to do that. ⁓ and especially if someone has a tendency to say things that they don't mean. And again, I'm never,
going to justify that behavior, but I do think it can be helpful to take the pressure off of both people to just, you know, realize that not everything that the person that is experiencing is personal to them. And also, like kind of how you mentioned before, it was like, you know, if your husband like back in the day was like upset, it's hard to not take it personally, right? But just remembering like, that's them. Like, you know, we're separate individuals. That's what they're experiencing right now. I don't have to take
that in.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:44)
Yeah, those are really good points. How can a loved one, let's say you have a partner with, let's say someone's listening who has a partner with BPD and they're like, got it, boundaries. But when I set boundaries, it's like an explosion, right? When you yell at me, when you insult me, I'm gonna, I heard this recently, that's why I'm saying this. I go to a separate room and I take some space.
Kaytlyn Gilner (50:02)
World War III.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:13)
And then the partner with BPD is like, that feels like abandonment. That feels like you are abandoning me. That is so hurtful. ⁓ What do we do? Like, can that person navigate that and set that boundary in a way that doesn't come across as abandoning?
Kaytlyn Gilner (50:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really hard. And that's part of what I love so much about your work too, because you talk a lot about, you know, individuals who are, you know, supporting individuals with BPD, right? And, you know, it is tough because oftentimes like if there's threats of, you know, self harm or, you know, having that sense of abandonment, it can be really, really difficult. But again, I, and gosh, I really hope I don't misspeak, but I'm from what I've read and research is part of the, of what is really crucial.
for working with individuals with BPD is not giving into those demands. And it's helpful for that partner as well. And it doesn't seem like it in the moment. So I think that's also a million dollar question. I recognize that it's a very difficult position to be in. But it takes work on both sides.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:28)
Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (51:30)
Unfortunately, Yeah, it's not
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:30)
I think that's so important. Yeah.
Kaytlyn Gilner (51:32)
the person with with BPD or the person with the intense emotions and it's not just the job of the other partner to concede and meet all of their demands either. It truly has to be recognition on on both sides.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:46)
Yeah,
that is so well said. I am seeing a pattern that's either like the all or nothing, even from the partner. I am doing whatever they say. I'm saying yes. I'm validating and apologizing and they can track my phone. could, you know, I will never what they, you know, they'll say yes and almost like submit to anything to not upset their partner with BPD or the opposite. They're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm out of here. Bye.
So having those boundaries and not giving into like, okay, fine, fine, fine, fine. I'll just have no boundaries is important to have that like middle ground.
Kaytlyn Gilner (52:24)
Yes.
And that, and that brings to another good point also DBT for the family members as well, because you know, it is the, the core attributes of BPD, right? Is that paradox of the black and white thinking all good, all bad. What really helps individuals with borderline personality disorder is having that great area. And I believe one of the best partnerships for someone with BPD is someone who can hold that great area and be like, and, and reinforce that themselves and be like, actually this happened.
but it's not the end of the world or the relationship. And that's hard because the person, you know, with BPD may be making these very catastrophic remarks. If the other person doesn't give it and they're like, no, no, no, wait a minute. I mean, this is not good right now, but it's not the end of the world. It's not good and it's not all bad either. Having that sort of partnership, I think, can be really, really helpful, not kind of feed into that pattern.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:20)
Yeah, I love that. I love that even script too. It's like, hold on. Not the end of the world, don't worry.
Kaytlyn Gilner (53:25)
Yeah, so. Like this
sucks. I'm not going to say it doesn't suck. It sucks. This isn't good. I don't like it. But you're, you know, you're not a horrible person. I'm not the worst person. And the relationship isn't the worst relationship in the world. This is a moment that is not good. And we're going to work through it kind of Yeah, a bad one. Not a good moment, but. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:42)
I love that. This is a moment. ⁓ It's passing. Anything
else you want listeners to know? ⁓ Like any messages or misconceptions or things that you've seen that you want to spread as far as possible?
Kaytlyn Gilner (54:04)
Yeah, I just think the message really that I want
to spread is just that I you nobody's broken, you know, there are people don't need to be fixed, right? It's it's more about, you know, being confident and learning how to work with the feelings that you already have, not changing how you feel, right? Not changing how you feel, but changing how you navigate them and and kind of like doing that, just accepting that like we all have our flaws and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with you because you may think about things or view things or feel things differently.
than other people. And then the last thing I would say again is, you know, my podcast, the whole ⁓ premise of it is a retired good girls club, like helping women feel empowered to step in who they really are and stop trying to like fix themselves to fit in. And it's OK. It's OK to take up space and make other people feel uncomfortable, especially if you're going to stand up for yourself. ⁓ So that's important. And then like I mentioned before, ⁓ I'll send you the link for my DVD inspired workbook that just really gives us real
real-time tools that individuals can use in the moment because we all like learn all this stuff and then when we're in the moment we're like wait what do we do? So having something there on hand ⁓ you know if anybody's interested I have that as well and that's really it I just really enjoyed this conversation it was very it was just really inspiring and thought-provoking and I really appreciate it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:26)
⁓
thank you so much, Caitlin. This has been great. you know, both the conversations of going on your podcast and here and tell tell everyone how they could find you. I'll link all of it in the show notes. But, you know, just how can they find you?
Kaytlyn Gilner (55:37)
her.
Yeah, absolutely. ⁓
Instagram is at not so dumb blonde underscore pod. And then YouTube is not so dumb blonde podcast. You can find me there. And then tick tock is ⁓ it's therapy K. So I know there's a lot of different names there, but I can send it to you. So you have it. And yeah, that's how you can find me. I post episodes weekly for not so dumb bond. also host fundraiser events here in Denver for anybody who's in Denver. Yep. So you can hosting a coffee and comedy night that raises
funds for teen and mental health awareness in the next couple months. Super excited about it so you can check that all out there in my link tree.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:15)
Oh, that's awesome. I'll put all of that
in the show notes. So if you hear any of this, please find Caitlin and go to those fundraisers. That sounds awesome. Thank you so much. It's so wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for listening, little helpers. I mean, if you want to support, you know, all the girl, what is it? Retired girlies? What did you say? The retired good girls. Oh my God.
Kaytlyn Gilner (56:22)
Thank you. Yeah.
The retired good girls. We're trying to be the good or the
chill girl anymore.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:45)
If you're a tired good girl, leave us a five star rating. Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, I don't even know what else this podcast is spread on. Any other platform. Leave comments, ask questions. We love you guys. We'll see you next week. Thanks so much, Caitlin.
Kaytlyn Gilner (56:54)
any other platform that it could populate on.
Thanks.