What happens when you survive cancer, but the fear of dying doesn't go away?
Cancer treatment can save your life, but the emotional aftermath can be an entirely different battle.
In this episode, Dr. Kibby McMahon sits down with Anne Hamilton, founder and executive director of the Survivorship Collective, to explore cancer survivorship, trauma, and the emerging potential of psychedelic-assisted therapies.
After being diagnosed with advanced-stage breast cancer as a young adult, Anne experienced firsthand how difficult life after treatment can be. The fear of recurrence, loss of identity, and uncertainty about the future led her to explore new approaches to emotional and spiritual healing.
Today, through the Survivorship Collective, Anne works to connect cancer patients, survivors, and their loved ones with safe, legal psychedelic-assisted therapies.
Together, Kibby and Anne discuss:
🍄 Why the emotional aftermath of cancer can be harder than treatment itself
🍄 How psilocybin is being studied for cancer-related anxiety, depression, and trauma
🍄 Anne's personal experience confronting her fear of death
🍄 What psychedelic-assisted healing retreats actually look like
🍄 Why community, music, and human connection matter in healing
🍄 How cancer changes our relationship with identity, womanhood, and the future
Kibby also shares her own experience attending one of Anne's retreats, reflecting on what it means to surrender control, reconnect with yourself, and find a sense of agency after cancer.
About Anne Hamilton
Anne Hamilton is the founder and executive director of the Survivorship Collective, the first nonprofit connecting the cancer community with safe, legal psychedelic-assisted therapies.
A former litigator and Ninth Circuit law clerk, Anne holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and a Master's Degree in Philosophy from Stanford University. She has taught at USC's School of Cinematic Arts and completed the CIIS Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies and Research Certificate Program.
She is also a 2025 Mira Fellow, certified mediator, and member of the Psychedelic Bar Association.
Through her work, Anne advocates for better mental and spiritual care for cancer patients, survivors, and their loved ones.
Disclaimer: This conversation is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Psychedelic-assisted therapies carry risks and are not appropriate for everyone. Their legal status varies by jurisdiction.
#CancerSurvivorship #Psilocybin #PsychedelicTherapy #CancerTrauma #MentalHealth #TraumaHealing
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Hi guys, welcome to a little help for.
Our Friends a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.
Hey little helpers, today we're going to be talking about a really interesting topic, which is how psychedelics and other kind of healing modalities can really help cancer survivors.
0:22
So obviously this is a really personal and like a cherished topic for me because I went on when I was healing from breast cancer, I was shocked to find out that the hardest time emotionally was after when I got all the treatment for cancer.
0:48
So the year that was going through chemo and mastectomy and all this stuff, I was in survival mode and it was actually way harder.
The depression and anxiety and I, I don't even know what it was, but emotionally it was the most difficult after.
And I, as part of healing from it, went on a healing retreat where there was a whole ceremony.
1:13
There was a whole program of using mushrooms and psychedelics legally and intentionally to heal from some of the trauma from cancer survivorship.
So you might have heard maybe in the news or in general that there's all these new kind of therapies that are being explored for mental health, right?
1:39
You probably have heard of, you know, people are using ketamine and psilocybin and all these other kinds of things that are not just SSR is like traditional antidepressants because some of the stuff we have is just not enough.
It doesn't really address all the things that we need in order to fully heal from trauma or pain or a big transition, right?
2:02
And psilocybin, which is the the hallucinogen that's often derived from mushrooms is rapidly getting traction with clinical trials, research and really, you know, like intense look at how these can be helpful for healing a lot of mental, mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, trauma, you know, so right now there's a lot of work happening around understanding this alternative or like new medicine and how it could be helpful.
2:38
So you might have heard about that.
Like they could be helpful for a lot of things.
And I experienced it first hand in terms of my cancer healing journey.
So in order to delve into this a little bit more and what that healing means, I had a conversation with Anne Hamilton, who's now one of my dear, dear friends.
2:58
It's funny because she actually goes way back, has known my husband for a long time.
And then when she found out I had breast cancer, she reached out and she is a powerhouse.
She and we'll read her bio in a second, but she was like, she is like a superwoman and got breast cancer in her 30s and it was so challenging for her.
3:19
It was so hard.
And she found a lot of healing through psilocybin retreat.
Unfortunately, she won't say where because it was a famous celebrity's house where she did this, but you know, I won't out that.
3:36
But she, because it was such a transformative experience for her, she has founded the Survivorship Collective, which is a nonprofit that organizes these healing retreats for breast cancer survivors.
And there's expanding to other kinds of cancer survivorship and a lot of different kind of Women's Health and trauma healing.
3:58
So I think what she's doing is super cool and she's really, really thoughtful and really cares a lot about her work, which I don't know, like it just I am eternally grateful for how held and safe I felt in that experience that it really was like life changing.
4:18
So I'll read out her bio because she is so impressive and she's gone through so much and turned a lot of what she's been through into something amazing for this whole community.
So her name is Ann Hamilton and she's the founder and executive director of the Survivorship Collective, which is a nonprofit that I was telling you about, which connects the cancer community to safe, legal psychedelic assisted therapies.
4:45
She was diagnosed with advanced stage breast cancer at in her 30s, as I said, and she really has now been dedicated to being an advocate for better mental and spiritual care for cancers patients so and their survivors and their loved ones.
5:04
So not just like, let's put everyone through, you know, chemo and medicine in order to get cancer free, but like helping people really come to grips with the this like huge radical change and trauma in their lives.
5:21
She was also, this is how crazy her background is.
She was a litigator.
She went to Yale Law.
She was a former litigator in the 9th century, 9th Circuit clerk, and she was a former current member of the Psychedelic Bar Association.
5:39
She has worked with nonprofits and government.
And now she's also, she was a director.
She also like went from being a lawyer to being a director and made her own movie.
And now she's a professor at USC School of Cinematic Arts.
5:56
She is just incredible.
She has done so much in different fields.
And now she is really taking an interesting and really thoughtful approach to healing.
And our conversation, I really think you're going to find it fascinating because we, we talked a little bit about, you know, which, what these retreats are and how it works and how it heals people who have are in treatment are recovering from cancer, But also we started talking about women's healing in general and how, you know, we, we have such a medicalized approach to healing, right?
6:39
Like our healthcare system, as everyone knows it's broken and it makes it could be traumatizing and scary to get these treatments, whatever what there's cancer or something else.
But our version of healing in the US is often pretty jarring and pretty scary and patriarchal and disappointing.
7:02
And so we were talking about how we need to draw more wisdom from, let's say feminine approach to healing, which is very different.
It's very collaborative and community based and treated as something that's sacred.
7:19
So we go more into like, how do women approach healing and what can what wisdom can we draw from that?
So that was a area that I didn't think that this conversation would go, but it really has.
When we're talking about breast cancer survivorship, we're talking about like not just getting your antidepressants, but thinking about what would it be like to heal trauma in a group setting with ancient medicine like psilocybin with like, you know, song and music and ritual and ceremony.
7:52
Like what would that be like?
So very fascinating.
And if you are either cancer survivor yourself or know someone or love someone, please check out Survivorship Collective.
I'll put the links in the show notes and learn more about Anne Hamilton.
8:09
She is such a dear friend of mine and I'm really excited to share her and her her wisdom and insights with all of you.
So enjoy.
Welcome back little helpers.
Today I'm so excited.
8:25
We've been talking about this for so long, but today we have Anne Hamilton to talk to us about all of her really fascinating and impactful work on cancer survivorship and new healing methods with psilocybin and other kinds of what, what would you call what would you call like generally like, I don't want to say like alternative healing, but like.
8:50
I I would say it's, it's psychedelic based neuroplasticity that creates healing around things like trauma and fear of death and and dissociation.
So, but yeah, we could call it psychedelics or just basically psilocybin in state legal contexts.
9:06
Yeah, that's awesome.
Well, OK, so like psilocybin based treatments, but yeah, you know, broadly for survivorship and it's been so cool just for for people who don't know and actually goes way back.
She's she has been close with my husband Alex for many years.
9:25
And I've been, I've heard about her all through the years as like, you know, brilliant and strong and smart and wonderful.
So she was like a legend to me.
And then the first time I met you was going to your retreat, one of your retreats in February.
9:42
And that was the first time I met you in person.
So for me, that was like a big deal.
And now you're one of my dear friends.
So just want to say that.
Thank you.
For coming on one of my retreats, it means a lot to me.
And so does Alex, and obviously so do you.
So yeah.
Tell us, tell us a little bit about your organization, what your your work, what you focus on, and what your mission is.
10:04
So the the nonprofit I started with other cancer survivors and thrivers is called the Survivorship Collective.
We're a public charity and we create healing and containers in safe state legal contexts for psilocybin.
It's always a group.
It's often women who've had cancer and we serve people who've had cancer, their loved ones, people who are still in treatment, people who are out of treatment.
10:28
But we, we really focus on addressing the anxiety and depression and PTSD that comes after a cancer diagnosis and after cancer treatment.
So that's, that's what we do.
We work only in states where it's legal.
And we also have a lot of education and research and, you know, just kind of public service around what we're doing.
10:48
Because I think it's really important for the cancer community and beyond to understand how helpful psilocybin can be and how it's not just an alternative treatment.
It's becoming something that's much more mainstream because SSRI and other kinds of interventions are are not as helpful often as as psilocybin can be in certain contexts given the research.
11:10
So yeah, crazy what I wanted.
I wanted to ask about either one of those.
I want to ask about what cancer survivors tend to struggle with that might be different or maybe the same as, you know, regular trauma or other kinds of, you know, mental health issues.
11:28
And also why psilocybin like what, what what about that?
You know, you're mentioning that it it actually can create more healing than other kinds of treatments that we have.
And I'm so curious why.
I think it's a It's such a great question and I don't have all the answers to it.
11:46
I have some so often times when somebody's had a cancer diagnosis, they're given an SSRI or something even like like like Lexapro or something that's dopamine based like Wellbutrin, which can be very helpful, especially when you're in crisis.
12:03
And for women who've had breast cancer, that's hormone positive also to like when you're no longer enjoying the benefits of estrogen in your body, you can have a mood change too.
So, so that might make sense in that context, but often times what it does is it's sort of like dulls the feelings rather than addressing them.
12:21
And what psilocybin does for some reason is it allows you to sort of look at these feelings really intensely for a short period of time, maybe for six hours and, and address those things that, that you're sort of covering up.
And then in, in a, in a good setting and in with a lot of thought and care around the, the intentions and, and the, the therapy that can come afterwards, you can really have a beautiful result that can be lasting and very durable beyond six months, beyond even several years, depending on the kinds of therapy and integration that happens.
12:54
So.
That's so cool.
Tell us.
Well, tell me what breast cancer was like for you.
But well, we're I'm happy to share mine, But like what?
What did you find emotionally?
I mean that it, there's so much with cancer, there's so much like medical stuff that happens, right?
13:14
Like, you know, all the different treatments, but what did you find was hard emotionally?
I first I want to say that like we have amazing treatments for breast cancer and they're very effective.
They're becoming more and more effective.
It's so important to follow science and it's so important to, to do the, the chemotherapy if your doctor's recommending it.
13:33
And, and, and I had chemotherapy and radiation and I had a double mastectomy and also an uvectomy where they removed my ovaries because I'm bracha positive.
So it was pretty intense, right?
And it saved my life.
I'm continuing.
13:49
I'm almost at 8 years of being in remission at this point, although remission isn't.
Really.
How old are you when you were diagnosed?
I was 35.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Young.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you were too, right?
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah, very young.
And So what was it was difficult at the time when I was diagnosed was, you know, not having any control over very important things like cancer made it impossible to have control over whether I was going to live to be 40, right?
14:19
That was a big thing that I lost control over.
Not that it was guaranteed, but it was kind of like expected and then all of a sudden it wasn't.
Yeah.
And then the other part, which I'm really curious about is the medical treatment itself.
So I I dissociated from my body when I was going through medical treatment because of the nature of the treatment being so intense.
14:40
And I remember when I was in, in the radiation room, you know, when they put the, the blue dots on my chest, it was really traumatic for me because they were, I was crying and they were sort of holding me down to keep me still.
And it made me remember other kinds of trauma where that had happened.
14:59
And they're also, it was done by men who were just technicians who weren't doctors and, and it just was very much, I wasn't a person and that's in that place.
And so I ended up kind of like watching myself from above and, and dissociating completely from my body for, for a long time.
Actually, it took a long time to get back into my body in a way that felt safe.
15:19
But that was just treatment.
And then afterwards, like, you know, you're kind of like picking up the pieces of your life and, and not knowing if you should invest in the future.
Like I, I had a lot of, I still have a lot of difficulty really investing in the future in a major way because I don't know if it's going to come back.
15:35
And sometimes I feel like I'm not a good bet, like for somebody to, to love or to, you know, put time into because I don't know if I'm going to be here, you know, in, in five years.
And, and even though I, I wasn't metastatic, you know, that that chance of recurrence is still very much a, a specter in my life that this also has benefits too.
15:53
Like it makes me do things I probably would normally do that are brave and, you know, not as not as cautious, but at the same time there is this sort of awareness of fragility and mortality that's that's ever present.
What was the there were so many stages of it.
16:13
What what was the hardest one that you remember?
Like when when you think about like what was the most upsetting or scary or, you know, was it, was it that moment in the radiation or were there other ones that stood out as like?
Yeah, I, I think that the one that was the hardest for me was and the reason why I started looking for other interventions beyond, you know, talk therapy and antidepressants were it was, it was after treatment was over and I was really struggling with like thinking about the future in a way that wasn't terrifying.
16:43
Like whenever I thought about the future, I would get really like, I would get sick to my stomach.
I, I would think like, I don't want to think about the future.
If I think about the future, I, I, I don't want one.
It's too scary.
And there was also a point like right before my surgery where I was really weak after chemotherapy, like my liver had shut down.
17:06
I'd had a lot of, a lot of complications from chemotherapy.
And my mom and I had to have a conversation about what to do with my body if I didn't make it through surgery because I was like a possibility.
And it was just really haunting after, after I came out of treatment because I, I had to picture like what would happen to my body and who would touch me.
17:27
And it wasn't like the theoretical thing years in the future.
It was like 10 days away.
And and that really that was really hard to, to focus on those decisions because they're real decisions that people are going to, you know, execute, right.
Yeah, yeah.
So then aftermath you felt it was scary to think of the future.
17:46
How did your relationships, career or life?
I mean there's so many changes.
Like what?
What was just, what was the all that like?
What what?
What was that trauma like?
I don't even know where to begin.
I mean, everybody changed completely.
18:02
If I had, I was in a relationship that ended, which is very common during treatment.
I had a career where I was like going to make another movie because I just made a movie and and I wasn't able to do that.
And then with the pandemic, that sort of just snowballed.
I mean, I have a different career now, and it's wonderful.
18:21
I I teach at a university and I run this nonprofit and I think it's a better career.
But it wasn't my choice to change it, right?
There was, there was that kind of like lack of agency too.
That was really, in the end, wonderful, but at the time, very disorienting.
18:36
And I I sort of lost my identity.
I yeah, I lost my identity for a while and that was hard.
Yeah.
What did that feel like?
Like, do you remember?
I that's that.
I know what you mean, but what did that feel like to lose your identity during that time?
18:55
Well, I think you just, you notice it in different moments.
Like I think it's impossible to be really intimate or close to somebody if you don't know who you are yourself.
Like I remember when I was starting to date again, I was, I had some really wonderful dates and then this person was like, Hey, I really want to like, I want to date you.
19:16
I want you to be my girlfriend.
And, and I was like, I have no idea who you'd be dating.
Like I literally said that.
And, and it's, it's just impossible to really be close to somebody if you don't know who you are yourself, Which is why it's really important to have spaces where people can heal together in community and people who've had similar experiences come together because then you can, you can mirror each other, like you can reflect on the same problems, right?
19:42
Like when, when breast cancer survivors get together, we talk about the same things, right?
We talk about like our mastectomy scars, if we have them.
We talk about, you know, sexual challenges after, after cancer, right?
So it's, it's wonderful to be validated and seen.
19:59
And, and by being seen by somebody who can really see you, you get to reconstruct an identity that makes sense and that feels authentic.
It's a really good point.
What do you what do you think is like the thing that people in in the spirit of like being seen?
20:16
What do you think is unseen about the experience of either getting cancer or getting treated?
Like what is something that we would get where I have experienced that other people might not know from the outside?
I want to hear from you too, but I, you know, I think you lose and I think you lose so many pieces of your identity.
20:37
It's like going, it's like the Persephone going down into Hades and coming back up or the anonymous like, like you, you lose everything and, and all the, all the things that you thought were certain about yourself are no longer certain.
And I also think it's a way to wake up to the world's like, it's like once, once you see something, you can't Unsee it.
20:58
It's like those highlights.
I don't know if you've ever, like, had those magazines growing up.
But like.
Yeah, like those hidden, hidden, like animals in the in the pictures.
And like, all of a sudden when you see it, you're always going to see it now.
And and you start seeing things like how fragile the world is and how precious time is and how, you know how cruel some of the institutions we live in are and how we just don't talk about it.
21:24
And it's, it's really hard to not see that all the time and, and to not be able to talk about it with people or it's a bit, it's a bit isolating and lonely sometimes too, to to not to see things completely differently.
Yeah.
I don't know if you've experienced something like that, but it changes the way you, the lenses that you see the world through have changed I think pretty dramatically after a a life threatening illness, especially when you're young.
21:46
Yeah, yeah.
How?
Tell us about then.
How do you knew you needed help and how you found your way to psilocybin?
I became interested in psilocybin because of the research coming out of Johns Hopkins and NYU at the time.
And it was specifically around cancer related anxiety and depression.
22:03
And for me, I, I'd been through multiple treatments of SSRI's and, and, you know, dopamine related antidepressants like Wellbutrin and, and talk therapy and I was doing everything right.
I was exercising and like, you know, I, there wasn't anything I could do differently that would have helped my mental state.
22:24
And I still wasn't, I wasn't looking forward to waking up in the morning.
I, I didn't have any, any desire to invest in anything.
And I was really frightened.
And so, so yeah, I read about those studies.
I was like, that sounds like me.
This sounds really interesting and, and maybe maybe really helpful.
22:42
And then I had an experience and it allowed me to look at the things I was most afraid of, which was decaying and dying underground.
My God.
Yeah, that's what I actually see that I got to see it.
I got to see it, but what was remarkable about it, it was that it was really, really scary.
23:03
And then it was really, really relaxing because it wasn't painful.
It it didn't feel violence.
It felt very much a part of a bigger picture.
It felt appropriate.
It I felt like I was held by, you know, the earth.
23:22
So that thing I was most afraid of, I got to experience.
I got to die before I die.
And then you come out the other side as a, as a calmer person and and a person with a bit more of a, a center that could actually rebuild authentically.
23:38
Yeah.
And it sounds kind of like intellectual, but that's what happened.
Wow.
Do you?
Do you do you?
What are the shifts that you've seen yourself before and after?
I mean that that's huge.
That's a huge transformation to like face essentially your fears and make sense of it and not be terrified of it.
23:56
What if I were to look at you before that and after?
What would be the difference?
Well.
I, I think, you know, that was a really acute intervention, right from, from my own experience, I just was a lot calmer about the future and things I didn't have control over, I don't have control over.
24:15
And I was able to make sense of it in ways that were helpful.
You know, one of the things that happens when you're able to sort of have a bit of neuroplasticity or take a break from the patterns you're in, as you can start noticing things, you become somebody who notices when you're upset and anxious and when you're really relaxed and, and you can kind of have more agency over where you are in that dial.
24:41
So I mean, I, I'm still afraid of bad things happening, right.
But then I'm, I'm more aware of the fact that, oh, you're having those thoughts right now.
That's really interesting.
Why are you having those thoughts or do you want to be having those thoughts or, and you're having those thoughts?
It's so that's so hard, but there's a, there's sort of like a, a bit of a distance between the, the emotion and, and the way you respond to it.
25:04
So, and I think that's, you know, that's, you know, a beautiful way of, of saying you can have more freedom around around fear and anxiety.
I think that Victor Viktor Frankel has a nice quote around this and the man search for meeting where he says there's a, you know, there's a distance between stimulus and response.
25:24
And and that's that's a choice where you can find your freedom.
And I'm paraphrasing, but but there's there's something really nice about having that like a little bit of space where you can decide how you want to respond to something that might be very scary, whether it's a scan or friends of yours dying.
25:44
Except we have a lot of friends in the community who pass away from cancer.
So there's there's that.
Yeah.
Wow, So funny that you mentioned Viktor Frankel's answer.
I just talked like last episode.
I just talked all about that.
So, you know, Oh, great.
Tell, tell us a little bit more about what your retreats look like.
26:04
Because it's not just, you know, some people might think, oh, psilocybin, what does it mean?
You just eat a bunch of mushrooms and go off into the woods like it's, it's more than that.
So tell, tell, tell me a little bit more about like the intervention, the treatment that you have developed really.
26:20
Yeah, it's, it's really, it's created by the community itself, but also pretty intentionally because of the specific needs in the cancer community.
So it's a seven week program.
We start with three weeks online of, you know, weekly check insurance and, and getting to know the group.
26:40
Usually it's a group of like 8 to 10 people.
And, and then we also have one-on-one sessions.
People are are welcome to meet with our facilitators one-on-one and talk about their intentions.
But it's really important to have the group dynamic set up in advance, rules around how to be in a group set up in advance.
26:58
I also try to handpick people to, you know, be together because of different reasons.
Everybody gets an interview in advance.
If necessary, they'll get an additional medical screening.
So that's also helpful.
And then and then we have a five day retreat.
27:14
There's two psilocybin sessions in that retreat. 1's a lower dose and one's a high dose.
And we do that because it's good to have people, I like to say, like have a handshake with the medicine before they do a big journey.
It's good to sort of calibrate how much of A dose they should take the on the bigger day, but also just to kind of calm their nervous systems a little bit and, and already know what it's like to be in the space and do it to the, to the work.
27:43
And, and within those five days, we also have things like somatic interventions like Qigong.
We'll, we might do a little bit of yin yoga and then we also have art therapy, forest bathing in Group talk therapy work on occasion.
28:01
I don't like people to talk too much, but I think after like right after a journey, it's like it's just good to kind of be in your body.
If we're, if we're integrating the experience.
But but yeah, that's what we do.
And then we have three weeks afterwards of integration as well where it's weekly online check insurance and and individual meetings too.
28:21
Yeah, Tell, tell me a little bit more about integration, because I know that that's something that not every retreat program treatment does, but what?
And you know, once you're in the world of psilocybin healing, integration is a word that it's talked about a lot.
28:37
What is it and why is it important?
Well, yeah, like, so when you have a psilocybin journey, it's it's it can be a really big thing.
It's only 6 or 7 hours, but it feels like a long, long time.
I don't know if that experience was true for you.
OK, So and it can be like, you know, a little bit disruptive.
28:57
It can, it's supposed to kind of create plasticity or shake things up a little bit.
And then bringing that information back into your world, whether it's like, you know, a new understanding of your body or new feeling or insights into your cancer experience or insights into other kinds of things that have happened to you.
29:17
That's really, that's really hard, right?
It can be really hard.
And, and you need some time to figure out like what do you want to bring and change from that experience?
What do you want to change in your life?
And, and what things do you not want to focus on right now?
29:33
And, and how do we, how do we move into a place where our lives are a little bit different because of the experience and in different, in a positive way based on what our intentions were going into it.
So for me personally, I wanted a different relationship around death and dying because it was getting in the way of me really enjoying my life.
29:51
And that's what happened.
But it took a little while to get to that point where I, it, the experience made sense and I could, I could sort of, you know, weave that into my, my day-to-day existence.
Yeah.
What do you do?
Like what is integration?
30:08
What's the process of that?
Is it?
Is it mostly like talking about and deciding what to change and how to change it or what?
What else goes into it?
Yeah.
I mean it's, it's there's a sort of like intensive integration that happens like the day after a journey.
And that usually involves like, I like to have people draw pieces of their experience and sort of incorporate like the highs and the lows and the in betweens.
30:32
And then I also, you know, I like to have them be in their bodies and sort of feel what it's like to be in their bodies slightly differently.
And usually that's with Qigong, we bring in somebody who's, who's a, you know, works in a Qigong lineage.
And then over the next three weeks, it's different for everybody, but it's, it's talking about the experience, it's noticing what's different in your life.
30:56
And then like intentionally making those things that are different become habits that can sustain you overtime.
That's, that's sort of the, I mean, that's, that's the thought process at least.
Like you have this window of neuroplasticity for two to three weeks after, I mean, it could last longer, but definitely two to three weeks after psilocybin journey.
31:16
And so you want to really like take that opportunity to create new patterns of thought and habits in your life and that can that can kind of have a reset function.
I don't know if you know this, but what like does does psilocybin have the same impact for cancer survivors as like someone else struggling with like trauma and anxiety?
31:39
Or is there something different about the survivorship part?
You know, I don't know, I think there are similarities and differences for everybody.
Yeah.
So I think, you know, if you're trying to deal with something like, like a traumatic event in your past, whether it's complex trauma or developmental trauma or acute trauma, right.
32:04
Cancer is 1 version of that version of that kind of thing.
Like cancer is an acute trauma that happens in your adult life oftentimes.
Sometimes it's your, your child, but, and so Silsom can be really good at getting at those, those pieces of your, of your psyche, right to, to look at them and to, and to deal with them.
32:23
I do think you need different skill sets in the room depending on the kinds of trauma you're you're encountering.
What gets really interesting and complex is if there's multiple, if somebody has multiple kinds of traumatic experiences that might come up in a session.
32:38
So it might be psilocybin brings up cancer related trauma, but it could also bring up developmental trauma.
And you don't know what's going to happen in the room.
And so that's why it's really good to have a, an experienced facilitator who has other kinds of training in psychology or therapy.
32:55
It's good to have, it's important to have like a really structured integration for people who might be a bit more vulnerable too.
Yeah, that makes sense.
What are there people who you are like, oh, this would be really helpful for you versus other people who you might steer away from these kind of treatments?
33:17
Yeah, I mean, I, I never say something to be really, really helpful for somebody.
I think, I think if somebody's interested in this like that's, that's, that's where you start.
I never recommend this because it is, it is a big thing to do.
But it if you're, if you're, if you have a question you're trying to answer about something or you like it's something that's really specific and other methods haven't worked, then this is really worth considering.
33:39
I think it's worth considering for you.
It's it may not be for everybody.
There's certainly contraindications that are that we screen out for and, and some of that has to do with like psychosis or you know, different, different kinds of diagnosis.
33:59
But then there's also like physical contraindications like somebody has like a certain kind of heart condition.
It can be a problem with psilocybin.
So we just want to keep people safe and it's certainly not safe for everybody, especially outside of a, of a controlled, regulated setting.
34:15
So.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
I, I really appreciated how you structured the whole retreat in the program so that there was a lot of like, a lot of like trust building because you know, like some people might go into it having experience with psilocybin or, or, or therapy or touching into intense emotions.
34:39
And I bet some people are like, what is this?
Like, I've never done this before.
And so I really did like, you know, having a medical screening, having, you know, getting to know the group and knowing that it's like in this professional setting, right?
34:55
It would like where it's legal and you know, there's there was like a bunch of I was surprised, like you guys were all like facilitating.
So it was like it in my head.
It was like if anyone if I ever had to worry that something might go terribly right, like if there were so many points of like safeguards or feeling like held in the experience.
35:19
So that was super cool.
I'm so glad you felt that way.
I'm really, I'm really glad that that was your experience and that was the intention.
Like I, I don't think that I don't think that there's any one right way to have a psilocybin experience, right?
35:37
But this is the way I would have liked to have it.
So right, there's like.
Yeah.
And I think creating safety and choice and trust is like so important to healing and, and I, I don't personally feel safety or trust in a, in a medical setting because of all the things I mentioned before.
35:57
Interesting.
And some people do and good for them, like go do it in a medical setting, have a therapist.
It can be just like a one-on-one thing.
But I also think that that's a very, if you look at it from the outside, like a very weird way to heal.
36:12
Like it's almost like there's a power dynamic.
It's transactional.
Somebody has authority over the person who's been through the thing.
Like, you know, when a, when a psychologist talks to me about cancer, but they haven't had cancer, It's, it's, it's a, it's like mental gymnastics for me constantly because I'm like, I don't really know how to express myself.
36:34
Because if you haven't been through something like that, it's really hard to understand it.
It's actually, I think impossible to understand it completely.
So, so that's really, it's really something that I, I, I'm proud of in that you're, we're creating a space that's healing and safe and structured, but it's not a hierarchical setting.
36:56
Like the facilitators don't talk a whole lot.
Like that's the point.
The group is the intervention and they're singing and, you know, playfulness in the ceremony and music.
But but it's not about like talk therapy or like individual anything.
37:14
It's really about like the group coming together and, and the music and the, and the psilocybin mushrooms coming together in a way that is, I think I'm I'm more even traditional, but like an ancient way of healing, especially for women.
So I'm really curious about that right now.
I'm my, my ears are, are kind of like, you know, going in that direction of like, why is, why is a group experience really helpful for women and why does it feel safer to heal in a group for women than than not so?
37:44
Yeah, that's so interesting.
I first of all, not sure if it's just women, right, Like men also, but they might not have the opportunities for it.
We might be a little bit more like comfortable with it.
But yeah, I the whole like, setting up healing is a really interesting thing that I think I took for granted because, yeah, I it when you go through cancer treatment or any kind of major medical treatment, probably you're really like shuffled around very quickly to like, OK, you need to get this infusion.
38:15
It's good.
You're going to lose your hair.
OK, now you get this.
You're going to get remove your boobs.
You know, maybe you'll get to keep your nipples, but maybe not.
And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And you're kind of like going through a meat grinder, so to speak.
And then I, yeah, I, I see what you're saying.
38:33
Like the thing that I thought was really cool about your retreat was how it was a real practice in this is a moment for you to take care of yourself and heal.
You don't need to take care for anyone else.
38:50
However, what you need is will be respected.
So I'm, you know, just to paint the picture for for people I know.
I didn't know what to expect.
I thought we were just going to sit in the woods or something like that.
But it was like a really beautiful room with like little like beds and blankets and we had our own space and our journals are comfy socks.
39:11
And there was a facilitator who you know only on who was like singing these ancient songs to us.
And then all of you guys like facilitating to help us like go to the bathroom.
I mean, that was like one of my most fun memories of of the journey was like you taking me to the bathroom and like me putting my hands on your shoulders just so I don't like setting myself.
39:35
And we're just kind of like moseying to the bathroom.
It's just like fun, but it was, it's, it's, it's, it's a setting.
And now as I'm talking about, I'm wondering if like how much the psilocybin is, how much of it is the psilocybin versus like creating a container, like a, a time and place where you know, it was just for us, we don't have to care for anything.
40:00
We don't have to do anything.
It just be there with our thoughts and feelings and, and everyone else will take care of you and your basic needs if you need it, right.
So.
That was really cool and it's funny that you mentioned the the women part because that was one of my intentions going in.
40:17
I think I was really grappling with what it like womanhood and I think I've talked about this with you, but like feeling pulled between the different sides of me of like feminine and masculine.
40:35
And I've been more comfortable in my life with the masculine with like work and, you know, ambition and school and all that.
And then all the feminine stuff was so hard for me, you know, like pregnancy and giving birth and breast cancer, right?
40:51
It was like, I don't know, like it really made me like not like being a lady for a while.
So.
To be in a room full of women healing from this literally like feminine disease made me kind of like sit with the, I guess like more marvel in awe at women's ability to come together and heal together, right?
41:23
Like we support each other, but then also we let we do that by like letting us do our own healing, right?
Which I, I remember just being there, like being in awe of like, Oh my God, we're all just like, like supporting each other and making each other feel safe.
41:40
Like even just us being kind to each other or respect each other's space or you know, like you got you helping me to the bathroom or something like that.
It was all like you were there to support, but like I was doing the work on myself to heal.
41:57
No one was doing things to me, which was cool.
Yeah, there's so many things to say about that container that I think even without psilocybin, it's really important to have that right.
And I'm just really curious about what that container can do and why we don't have more containers like that.
42:23
Like, where did that go?
Because that, that's a, it's an ancient way to be together.
Women being together, singing together, helping each other, witnessing each other.
It's, it's something that's really important to humanity, like, and I, I'm just really curious about the songs.
42:44
Like, I was recently on a journey where I was facilitating and we had, we have like, many voices in the room.
But one of the singers left and I started singing some lullabies from my grandmother's, from my grandmother and and other.
43:05
And the women who were in the medicine started singing along with me or humming along with me, like in harmony.
And it was such a magical feeling.
Like it was something that I had never felt before, but it felt really ancient.
43:20
And I'm just really like, that's the edge for me right now is like what is happening with the music.
And there's some yeah.
Like choirs and harmony.
That's really important to this work as well.
I hope this isn't getting to like woo woo, but I think like.
43:39
No, I mean.
I think, yeah, women singing together, it's like an ancient thing, you know?
You know, you know what's interesting?
I, I was a little while ago, I was listening to the Huberman Lab podcast and the episode I listened to was about music and like sociologically or psychologically, like, why do we have music?
43:59
Like every culture has it, but they can't really figure out like why we're springing into song together.
And one theory was that and like dance and stuff like that.
And, and with men, traditionally it was like singing and being together and moving as one scares the other side in war.
44:24
Or like when you when like a group of men are singing and chanting and dancing, they appear like a bigger animal.
So that was like a protective thing.
But for women, that might be different.
So it's just kind of cool to think about like, yeah, like, what is it?
44:42
What is what is music?
Why are we singing together?
And I guess part of it is like this just strength in numbers kind of thing where it's like, I mean, I'm sure there's one part of it, but just like the unity where we like everyone might know this a similar nursery rhyme and be able to hum together as a kind of like joining with each other.
45:03
Yeah, yeah, It's a way of communicating things that you can't communicate through words like I think like humming and harmony especially.
So it wasn't, I mean, I was singing like a couple of lyrics, but it was really about the, the humming and the and the the music.
45:24
I don't, I mean it, it makes sense that this, the stories about music would be male centered in, in our culture, right, like being bigger and, and fighting better and, you know, pounding our chests or whatever.
But like, I don't, I don't think that's what's happening in the, in the, in the medicine spaces.
45:41
I, I think, I think there's something really, it's almost like it's ethereal and it remind like when I think about the Mystics from, you know, like Saint John of the Cross or Hildegard von Bingham, or it's like, it's almost like a prayer, but like a common prayer to each other.
46:03
Like there's something really like, it's really interesting.
And that's like, I just think I thought it was so fascinating and like almost a little bit like sacred like this.
There's something happening here that is not something you normally see in the world, and it's very healing, yeah.
46:20
Yeah, it's incorporated in so many religions and traditions.
And I do remember that on my journey on the retreat, I one of the most emotional moments and one of the moments that I felt like the most like we're all together was when one of the facilitators just broke out into song toward the end, and she was singing.
46:41
I don't know if she made-up the song or it's an actual song, but she was singing.
You don't have to carry this alone.
Oh yeah, you're safe.
We.
All just started to like, like just real.
Like it was like it was, we had all spent like 6 hours going through our own things, right?
46:59
Like going into our, the depths of our psychism back.
And so it was like at the end of a day and we all were kind of coming back.
And then she just sang the song and we're like, you know, just, it was so beautiful.
That was one of the moments I like, really like pop into my mind also because I just didn't realize that she had such a beautiful voice and it was just like afterwards.
47:23
She really does.
Doing with that like you're, you're so talented so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that kind of, it's so peaceful and yeah, calming.
I think it's very regulating.
I think music in a group is very.
47:39
It's calming in a way that makes you feel open and childlike.
And yeah, with especially with women singing.
Yeah, it's so cool.
And also it's like very clear as we're talking about it, how it's not just like what people think.
47:57
It's like you just do drugs, right?
And you just do some mushrooms and like it's I, I loved the idea that this the mushrooms are like a catalyst, like for your own healing.
Like it, it, it shows you what you need to, you need to know or you need to get in touch with in order to move forward towards your intention.
48:20
But that's not like the mushrooms are doing it.
I thought it was so cool that you and the facilitators are always talking about like you're doing it with it and it is like a partner in this, this experience.
48:36
Yeah, it's a relationship rather than a tool.
I think people, people think about and I, I frame it as tools as well and interventions as well, depending on who I'm speaking to.
Like if you're in a medical context, we think about, we think about substances as tools or interventions.
But really it's, it's a relationship with yourself, right?
48:53
I think that that's what that's for me.
If you were asking me, you know what I think it is.
I think it's a opening to a better relationship with yourself.
Yeah, Yeah.
That's a really beautiful way of putting it.
Yeah.
I it's, it's also interesting too about how, you know, maybe just because we're talking about, like healing contexts and how one different kind of contexts can make you feel more empowered or held than others.
49:26
And I would, I, I expected it to be a lot scarier for, I mean, like Full disclosure, I've done mushrooms and other contexts too, not just this healing retreat.
So the, I, I didn't know what it was going to be like after cancer treatment because so much happens to your body.
49:50
You are like in all these different hospital beds getting poked and prodded and you have to kind of like, you know, especially with chemo, you just kind of sit there and I definitely dissociated like every infusion, you know, you're just like they're receiving treatment, but just almost kind of like think having things done to you.
50:13
And that's like the, I think the lack of control and the powerlessness is the is really terrifying.
And then with psilocybin or this kind of retreat healing, you're kind of doing that again, right?
It was like you're doing, you're, you're ingesting something.
50:31
You know something's physically going to happen to you and you're taking medicine and you are like, you have to release control, right?
And that's, I love how we all talked about that, the feeling of anxiety.
50:48
There's like a feeling of anxiety and it feels like getting stuck on a bridge.
And if you don't take enough or you don't let yourself give in to the experience, you could get stuck on the bridge and basically have a bad time, right?
Just like anxious the whole time.
51:04
So the challenge is really like, can you be in this kind of healing setting and just let go?
Like just surrender and let go of control in a way.
And that that in itself is like for any kind of trauma survivor or, you know, someone who's been through any kind of serious medical treatment that's like intense.
51:28
Yeah, I really like the way you're framing that.
I but I think the difference is you don't get to choose whether you go through cancer treatment, not really like because you have a gun to your head, right.
If you don't do it, you're going to die, and you're going to die really soon, and it's going to be really painful.
51:46
And I think with this, what's so beautiful about what you're saying?
And I haven't thought about it this way before, so thank you.
This is a new way of framing it, but you can choose to go on a psilocybin journey or not, Like it's completely up to you.
And so the choice of allowing yourself to be vulnerable again in a context where you know, all those things are somewhat similar, but also different could be healing in itself.
52:15
Like it's because of the choice and the agency, like it's agency every step of the way.
It's trust building at every step of the way, right?
It's, it's your interests 1st every step of the way.
It's comfortable.
There are nice comfy socks.
There's like specialty, right?
It's it's not, it's like the opposite of hospital setting.
52:33
Yeah.
Which is I think why maybe This is why I keep saying like, I don't think the medical setting for this is good for everybody, right?
I think I think having a more natural setting is really important for populations who've had medical trauma.
That's interesting.
52:49
Yeah, definitely.
And it's just it's, it was weird to come out.
And I agree that, like, the time after cancer treatment was emotionally the hardest.
Like, I mean, not really.
53:05
I mean, like, in it, you're in survival mode and you're just like, OK, what do I need to do tomorrow?
I had to get this infusion.
My hair's gonna fall.
You know, like, there's all this literally survival mode, and then you come out and you're like, healed.
And then you're like, oh, my God.
Like it just.
What happens now?
53:21
What happens now?
And I remember that whole like male, female thing because I was like, usually what I, how I cope through hard things was getting productive and working and getting in control, you know, using my mind and my work ethic, right?
53:38
Like I can power through and do and work right.
And then but I felt that, I guess it felt like being constipated, like it felt like that I just like, I didn't light up, you know, like I didn't feel this movement in me that usually motivates me to do stuff.
54:01
I felt like I was really had to drag myself to like do work or think, you know, just.
And so I wanted more control, you know, I wanted more of that feeling of power in myself.
And it was such a paradox to have to let go and surrender again to get that power back, right?
54:28
So it's such a.
Did you get your power back?
Is that what I?
Feel like, yeah, for sure.
I mean, not in the same way as before.
Yay.
Yeah, You know, I definitely, I definitely have those lasting changes.
I definitely feel like, and it's funny because I think I, I was going into the journey like, Oh my God, I'm going to cry my eyes out.
54:48
I'm going to like see the demons in me or you know, I thought it was going to be like horrible because I really, I was like more anxious and down on myself and depressed.
Well, it felt a little bit like postpartum depression, but I really was like, oh, no, I probably have a lot of crying to do.
55:06
And then I did for a little bit, like I think I grieved a little bit in the first day.
But then the second day was a lot more like the big journey was so much more fun and lighthearted and silly and joyful than I thought.
55:23
But then I did feel afterwards like this shift in me of, I don't know, it just feels like this stagnant, like I finally pooped, I guess, you know, like I this stagnant energy like, and now I feel like more like myself again.
55:39
Of course, I don't feel like super in control and powerful and what, you know, whatever.
But yeah, I've definitely feel more solid.
Like it's, it's the way you're describing calm I feel.
I wouldn't say it's calm, but more like I'm back on my feet again instead of feeling like I'm just floating without an anchor, you know?
56:04
Yeah, feeling solid and like sounds just like integrated and authentic too, like being able to actually be at land.
Maybe it has to do with your identity too.
Like because it's, you know, you, you get sort of blown into pieces by a traumatic event and piercing it back together in a way that feels solid is is a lot of work.
56:26
And it sounds like part of your integration was kind of finding that solid ground again.
Yeah, women, obviously men do, but like women have a particular, I think one, one piece of healing from like breast cancer.
56:44
You know, the trauma is like women have a natural caretaking role, right?
Like to literally give your body for a person and then care for that.
You know, like we a lot of our, I don't want to say task responsibility, but like caretaking is a big piece of like our biology in a way.
57:12
And I'm formulating these thoughts in the moment and I think what what is really crazy about like cancer or that kind of trauma is like, I don't know what if I have what it takes to care for someone.
57:34
I don't know if I have the strength or the body or the the ability to to do and care for.
So at least what I was struggling with too is like I was coming out of this thing, this trauma, and I was also like seeing patients and like literally creating my program to support loved ones of people with mental illness or addiction.
57:56
So I was like, I'm, I was, I'm caring for caretakers and the feeling of like, Oh my God, like that's a lot for me to carry out.
I don't know if I have this strength and ability to, that is hard.
And I imagine like with breast cancer and cancer in general, like women at least like the themes that I remember hearing about is like, I've spent all my life caring for someone and then who am I?
58:26
Or do I have the body and strength to have children?
Or can I, can I be a therapy?
Like for me is like, can I be a therapist when my hair is still growing back, right?
It's like.
Oh.
58:42
Yeah, this, this, this, you know, thinking about like that caring for others was stripped away or like put in question.
And that was a big part of my identity, at least that I had to like, come to terms with.
Yeah, yeah.
59:01
I mean, there's so many things there that are worth addressing too.
As a woman, I remember in my relationship that ended during chemotherapy, I wanted to leave, but I I kept thinking like, who's going to want me now?
Because I'm.
So all the things that you're supposed to do physically in a relationship as a woman, there's a lot of physical labor that's expected.
59:24
And we don't think of it as labor.
We think of it as just something people want to give.
But like, yeah, child bearing, childbirth, sex being, you know, being a certain way in a relationship, being happy, being beautiful, having breasts that are actual breasts, right?
59:44
All these things like gone overnight without so much as like a conversation about what that means.
And so I remember thinking like, what am I?
Am I even a woman At one point I asked my doctor like how am IA woman if you're taking away?
Also my female hormones gone for like 7 years crazy in my 30s like.
1:00:05
So yeah, there's this feeling of like, how am I?
Like what?
What's my value in a relationship if I can't provide these services in the same way if I don't want to?
I remember like feeling kind of angry about it for a while because there's this implicit like exchange when you're meeting somebody where they're like, well, I want these things and if your body can't do it, then I'm not interested.
1:00:28
Like there's that kind of thing.
So so that's, that's sort of like the downside, but it's also like it's an opportunity for something really interesting to emerge.
Because if those things are taken away, especially when you're young, then you've got this opportunity to redefine what it is to be a woman and what's important about it and what women need.
1:00:51
And I think that's part of what we're doing, too.
Do you have different answers for that for yourself?
Definitely.
I mean, for myself, I think I'm, I'm defining it, but I'm, I'm really noticing things like like when the women started singing in the ceremony, I was like, Oh my God, like this is it.
1:01:17
Like this is the thing what's happening here.
And I never would have seen so clearly the importance of prioritizing women's voices and healing spaces until now.
I would have compromised more.
I would have said, like, this should be equal.
1:01:34
We should have men and women in the room and it should be equal.
But actually I don't.
I don't know if that's true.
I think we get so sort of twisted and bent by a society that demands so much of us and we act like that's normal because to see what's real is just too depressing.
1:01:54
But if you're no longer in service to men or to the needs of other people, as a woman, there's a lot you can offer to the world in terms of leadership and creativity.
And I think that's what I'm, that's kind of my edge right now.
1:02:10
Like, what does that look like?
And how do I create spaces like that for women who are also interested in that?
Do you have a sense of what women can do or how they show up as leaders or healers or whatever outside of those?
1:02:27
Normal.
I'm normal, but you know what I mean?
Like what, what, what?
Honestly, it's so.
Fascinating.
Like, yeah, of course, yes, there are women leaders everywhere, but I think this is a little bit different.
Like I'm looking more into more ancient forms of not ancient, but like, like historical women figures who were leaders and in different kinds of societies because I think our society, it's impossible to be like, completely free as a woman leader in this society.
1:02:58
We just, it's not structured for that.
So you have to like, look at other contexts and other ways of being.
Yeah.
And this is like, sorry, this is not.
These are not form thoughts really.
Like these are just like, this is like creative space to play.
Yeah.
I'm.
I'm really curious about it.
And it's also like coming out of the music to like, like artists.
1:03:14
Right now there's this beautiful artist that was just featured.
I have to look up her name on CBS This Morning.
My parents were watching it.
I thought it was so fun.
But she has this new album, album out called Lux Rosalia.
1:03:30
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like all of her, this new album, Lux all about women leaders from the past and like the music.
And there's just something happening that's really beautiful and interesting.
And I'm just paying attention to it and I I don't know what it is.
1:03:47
And within psychedelics, like there's all these male leaders, mostly white men, and they're all trying to control it.
And I don't understand how that's going to work because it's not supposed to be like in this.
1:04:03
Way you know and.
And I think that's also what's so interesting about like the me, like it's so strange to to see the leadership and then to also realize like the women's voices are the voices that are really powerful.
1:04:18
Like it's just, it's, it's a fascinating time.
I'm curious if there is like an idea of what it looks like and what what what is women leadership like women.
I mean, I know what you're what you're saying is tapping into the thing that you know, the male female conflict in me, because I think that up until up until like my internship year, I think I was always like, Oh, I am comfortable with the idea that achievement and work and worth is about like how well can I compete in like essentially male dominated things?
1:05:03
Like can I publish as much or more than my male colleagues?
Or am I able to work non-stop?
Am I able to like apply for competitive things, right.
It was always like that was me.
That was my focus and drive.
1:05:18
And it was always kind of like, I didn't realize it at the time, but like how well can I can I play with the boys kind of thing.
Like how well can I have a seat at the table and act enough like a man that I will be 1 of the academics with the other mostly men, right?
1:05:36
And then and then pregnancy and giving and like infertility and all that stuff.
Put that into question and I was like, how am I supposed to even work?
Literally at the time was like 12 hours a day, every single day when I have a child or I'm pregnant.
1:05:52
I was like, Oh my God, I can't you know, how am I ever going to compete with my academic colleagues who are men who are, you know, who won't have any interruption, right?
So that was the start of my Oh my God, am I not be able to play with the boys?
1:06:10
And I was, and you know, there's echoes of it now, like I'm, I'm a little bit more at peace with it.
But there's still to this day, even, you know, going from academia to like industry and entrepreneurship in the startup world.
Well, that is like all the messages you get are if you are a 22 year old white man who's overconfident, you'll probably get millions of dollars in VC funds than if an older woman were to pitch the same idea, right.
1:06:42
So it's like, can I, can I show them that I am like that too, like a tech pro?
Then I'm like that, that, you know, then it just, I think over time, it just felt like I felt that anger of like, why, why do I like, why do I have to pretend like the things that I know and can do?
1:07:00
I'm just going to hide that and pretend that I'm like a 22 year old tech bro who thinks that I'm going to like be the best thing on earth, right?
Which I wish that we could articulate better what the women I didn't.
Understand example, right, it just came up recently in a conversation with a man who wanted to appropriate the idea.
1:07:21
But there's so back in ancient Greece there there was this thing called the Ellusinian mysteries, right?
And it was it was the religion of ancient Greece.
And so you would you would prepare for like 9 months and you'd go on this journey to get ready for it and you'd go into this temple and women only were allowed to administer the what we think is like a sort of similar substance to LSD.
1:07:45
It's called, it was called ergot and it grew on, on wheat and it was like purplish.
And you would go and you would, the point was to die before you die.
And you would go there and women would do different things in the ceremony and men and men and women could go and receive the sort of sacrament, but women were the only ones who were in control of it.
1:08:00
And you'd go and, and you would afterwards you, your life would be changed because you got to die before you die.
And which I thought was like really interesting after my experience where I literally died right in my, in my experience, and it changed my life.
1:08:16
And then you weren't allowed to talk about it.
If you talked about it, you were killed.
Like that was the you were not allowed to talk about what happened in the temple, but it was only women who controlled it and it was secret.
And it was the mysteries.
And that was the point.
And I, I recently talked to a young man in in the psychedelic space.
1:08:34
And he was like, yeah, we want to create this place where people can go.
We're call, we're going to call the Lucis or the Ellucinian Mysteries.
And it's, you know, and he was naming the people he wants to work on it with.
And it's all men.
And I was like, I got really angry, I mean, and, and angry and like a sort of the way I get angry, which is like just to make more arguments because I'm also trained in a, you know, male society.
1:08:57
But I was like, like, look, like you can try to do that, but that's not like that's not yours to take.
It's, this is supposed to be a female centered experience, at least within the Greek context.
And so unless you have women running it and controlling it, it's not going to be authentic and it's probably not going to work.
1:09:16
So I, I do think there's something more mysterious about what we do and the kinds of knowledge that we have and how music works.
I think that's the way it's supposed to be.
And what I ended up telling this young man was like, you know, like the young white man who gets the funding, right?
1:09:32
It was that kind of person.
But I was just like, look, like you.
The whole point of a mystery is that you're not supposed to understand it.
And because he was like, try to explain.
He was like, explain to me what it's like to be in the room with only women.
And I was like, absolutely not like, that's not yours to have.
And, and even just saying things like that, it's not yours to have.
1:09:51
And some things are not, are not things that you need to understand, but you can protect them.
You can serve them as a man, but you shouldn't be allowed within that inner space.
I think that's a new way of creating leadership within female circles.
1:10:10
And I, I, that's what I'm, that's what I'm, that's my learning edge right now is like, what is it like to ask men to just serve and protect but not be included within the leadership?
That's.
Really interesting.
That's super interesting.
I think that's super, super interesting, yeah.
Because as you're, as you're describing it, it's like maybe the male approach would normally like want to own and have and conquer and like bend on bend to their will, right?
1:10:44
Like they will dominate.
They will, they will own.
Whereas maybe women are more comfortable with the collaboration, but more of like, yeah, you do it.
You this is yours.
I'm not gonna take it.
I'm not gonna own your healing.
Yeah, right.
1:11:00
Which is why the circles are better, are so much more feminine than the therapy dynamic.
Like there's kind of an ownership of of and I mean, you're a therapist and I might, I'd be stepping on toes, but like there's like there's this dynamic of control and ownership over authority within a therapeutic setting.
1:11:19
Whereas with at least that, that's been my experience even with female therapists.
And then if it's a healing circle, women are it's it's more of a collaborative experience and a witnessing experience, which is a different structure.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I even thinking about like in a relationship, what does it mean for men to protect and support but not own, right.
1:11:44
That's something that like women try to like look for, but that's hard for men, right?
Because they're like, for example, if they're like, oh, you know, what's in it for me?
Or like if I'm protecting you or doing this for you and you know, you should be mine in a certain way.
1:12:01
So it's like it that that's just an interesting.
Thing, but it's, it's a very, that's not the feminine way of, of controller.
I mean, not control.
It's not the feminine way of leadership or safety.
Like, like being allowed to protect and serve should be enough in itself.
1:12:17
Like you get to be around the mysteries if you do that.
And if you don't do that, you're going to change it in a way that isn't going to be as good.
You may not understand how it's different, but it's going to be different.
And and not as yeah, not as sacred, not as free.
I encountered all of these kind of things when I was about to give birth.
1:12:39
And learning that, like, yeah, the way we give birth in a hospital setting is actually really unnatural and insane.
Like it's really, you know, like there's a man telling you what to do and there's like fluorescent lights and you're like exposed and people are walking in and out and in nature.
1:13:01
That's not the way it is.
It's like the woman is the one in charge and being like I know what to do and I'm going to trust my body and everyone it used.
To be other women helping you too, like like before modern, like medicine, right?
Like 100 years ago when, when you were before that when you were pregnant, you go to a woman who was a midwife and she'd help you.
1:13:22
And, and we've, we've given like what we do with our dead and what we do with our are and death and dying and, and what we do with births to male dominated institutions.
It's it's really alienating sometimes.
Where do you want to go with this with survivorship collective of these Like do you think about is it just a psilocybin facility like based healing?
1:13:51
Are you thinking about mostly women, just cancer?
Like, I know we've had these conversations personally, but I'm curious where you envision Yeah mission going.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think we want to do more retreats that are centered around women's healing.
1:14:09
I think cancer is always going to be at the heart of what we do.
But I'm, I'm most curious about how to create safe healing spaces for women in our society within psychedelics.
And I think that's going to look really different from the medical model.
So that's where my energy is right now.
1:14:26
I also think, you know, women who've had cancer, that is like the core of what we're interested in.
But there's other areas of trauma as well in women's, especially women's bodies that I think this could be our, our model could be very, very helpful for.
1:14:42
So that's, that's what I'm interested in.
Also, men need healing too.
I should just say that like obviously men need healing too, but the structure is going to be different than I think, you know, the more typical ways of healing for men and, and hopefully they'll be enough men who are open to it, are interested in it.
1:14:58
So yeah, well, that's amazing.
Where can people find you if they're interested or they want to just learn more?
Yeah, we are at survivorshipcollective.com.
You can e-mail us there.
You can subscribe to our newsletter.
1:15:13
And thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah.
Thanks for coming.
I'm going to put the links to Survivorship Collective and your Instagram.
What's what's your Instagram handle again?
It's it's under score and under score.
Hamilton under score, Yeah.
1:15:30
Nice.
Yeah, well, I'll just and.
Then there's also Survivorship Collective, which you can do too.
But thank you for that, yeah.
Yeah, I'll link all of those in the show notes in the description.
So if you're listening to this and you want to just learn more and, or you're interested in going on a retreat, I highly recommend it.
Reach out to anyone listening, reach out to Ann is survivorship collective.
1:15:51
And yeah, I, you know what?
I, I, I haven't talked about this on, on the podcast yet, but I, as we've talked about and planning to do like a kind of like a deep dive documentary ish, kind of series on exploring different like healing methods for mental health.
1:16:12
And you and I have are tossing around ideas about doing a, a facilitated, you know, one-on-one retreat.
So I'm really excited about that.
And this is, I think it's one intention or one thing I can meditate on in that is feminine healing or feminine power, which is as I'm saying out loud, I'm like, that's not really capturing it.
1:16:39
But yeah, like, I think that would be a really interesting thing to explore.
I think so too.
I think that could be healing for a lot of people, so.
Yeah, OK.
Well, stay tuned, everyone.
Thank you and thank you so much for coming on this podcast.
1:16:56
I know a lot of people listening are going to find this fascinating and please get in touch with her.
If you're listening, please get in touch with her.
You just want to ask more, but thank you so much and this has been great.
Thanks, Kibby.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, I'll see you soon.
Yeah, I'll see you soon and a little helpers, I'll see you next week.
1:17:16
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1:18:24
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