Ep. 148 - The Fight You Didn’t Mean to Start: Why Conflict Escalates and How to Defuse It
Ever felt yourself going from calm to explosive in seconds flat? Or watched someone you care about transform into a raging stranger over something seemingly small? In this episode, we dive deep into the anatomy of emotional explosions - those high-conflict moments that can damage relationships and leave lasting scars. We unpack why these blowups happen, exploring how they often represent a reassertion of power when someone feels threatened, undermined, or disrespected. If you need more tips, get our free guide to De-Escalating Emotional Explosions.
Drawing from relationship research and our clinical experience, we examine the triggers that spark these explosions. We talk about how many explosive relationships involve confusion between authentic self-expression and harmful communication patterns.
Recognizing John Gottman's "Four Horsemen" of relationship conflict (criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling), we list practical strategies for defusing emotional explosions. Most importantly, we provide clear alternatives to these destructive patterns. Whether you're the one who explodes or you're walking on eggshells around someone who does, we offer compassionate understanding and actionable techniques to transform your communication.
**Join our KulaMind Community that launches July 14th! 50% off the first month for podcast listeners! Our community is an exclusive group of people navigating their loved ones' mental health and emotional issues. You'll get direct coaching on proven strategies for managing emotional crises, communicating effectively, and supporting your loved ones without losing yourself. Learn more here.
Resources:
Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers. Today we are going to talk about explosions, those big messy fights that many of us have, but some people have a lot more often. And, um, I know we all know how unpleasant they are and how sometimes scary and overwhelming they can be. So we want to talk about how to help you get out of that cycle, whether you're the exploder or your loved one is. Um could be going to kick it over to you because I know you've got some really big updates on this topic, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:44
So I got some stuff for you guys, all you little helpers dealing with emotional explosions. Two things One is our free guide to de-escalating emotional explosions. That's like an e-book that you can download. We'll link that in the show notes. And also we're launching the KulaMind Community on July 14th and that is a place that we could all connect and you can learn from us directly how to set boundaries, manage intense emotions, deal with crises.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:16
So in the community there's a lot of cool things. There's a lot of resources, a lot of just courses for you to learn a little bit more and delve a little bit more into the topics that we talk about here, and there's a group course that starts July 22nd. So we're going to together learning all the skills that we talk about here. So you get a lot of support, a lot of guidance from us and a lot of other great things. So if you sign up before July 14th, you get a 50% discount off first month. Uh, just go to coolamindcom KU L, a, m I N Dcom to check out a little bit more, or? Um, there's a link in the show notes where you can talk to me a little bit more about your questions, or just sign up.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 2:15
Amazing. How would you define an emotional explosion? I feel like different people might have really different descriptions of this.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:22
Yeah, I mean we've talked about all different kinds of emotion dysregulation. We talked about, you know, anxiety, or shutting down or freezing. I think we're talking right now with emotional explosions in terms of anger, like conflict within a relationship. You know you could talk about like high conflicts, high conflict couples and things like that, but basically what we're talking about it's like people who go from zero to 60 all at once, right, who maybe something small happens, like I know. I've heard a lot. I've heard a lot of people recently talk about women, talking about their husbands who are struggling and who are like normally are like steady, cool dudes, but lately you know, for example, if they correct their husband about something they were doing with the kids, like how they're bathing them or feeding them dinner, and then the husband will just snap and we'll just it seems like you know, coming from nothing, will just like explode at the partner.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:28
I'm just I'm saying this, you know, making this gendered because that's just who have talked to me. But there's also situations where, yeah, like some men have seen their partners with BPD or some other kind of emotion, dysregulation just all of a sudden shut down and, you know out of nowhere, just be like cold and irritable and want space, or maybe they're like flying off the handle, running away, yelling at the kids or maybe sometimes getting violent. So I think this what we're talking about is like this you know, these conflicts that just explode out of nowhere and go from you know nothing to like extreme height of it, really quickly.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:10
I'm on episode 15 of the USA, love Island, which was boring for 12 straight episodes where nothing happened, and then suddenly, in episodes 13 and 14, there were some explosions.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:21
Oh my God, I mean don't go too much in this, because one I want to see it and two we got to do an episode on love island, so save, save the, save your gold nuggets for next episode. Okay, but okay it was one exploding.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:37
So we just just to be fair to the boys, the women, the women explode is it good, is it worth watching? No, it's incredibly boring for 12 episodes and then it was really good for 2 episodes and now I don't know what's going to happen, but I've never seen the other seasons.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:59
Oh, like you don't know what's going to happen, like it could go back to being boring. Wait, you've seen Love Island before.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:08
No, I have not.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 5:11
This is the first Love Island you've seen. Yeah, oh, jacqueline. Okay, all right. Well then we're going to have to do a whole education for you. This is deep in the show. This is like watching Pete's, like watching pete's season of the bachelor, and that being your introduction to the, to the bachelor. Right, you gotta, you gotta see some of the classics.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 5:32
So, yeah, I do, because this season is not a good first, yeah, first impression no, and it came from the uk where, oh my god, like they seem to have no, no awareness of social media. They were just like unfiltered, like there was no rules or regulations. People just did all sorts of stuff. So we're, we're, we're, we're all right. I'm getting really pulled into this topic, so we're definitely going to have to do court about this after. But emotional explosions Okay, what?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:03
at least what did you see in love island that looked like an explosion um, a woman being upset that her man did not, uh, show that he was like valuing her, like other guys were taking their girls on date I mean, they were like making little surprises and hers wasn't, and she exploded on him. I feel like for that. But then there was this over time they started off really strong and she clearly like really bought into the relationship and I think thought it was going to solve all of her woes, you know, Um, and then over time he started getting annoyed with her and then, um, then there was this very dramatic scene where, like America votes and they kind of got like separated and she almost got sent home and then he didn't go comfort her, which was fucked up, in fairness, and they kind of got like separated and she almost got sent home and then he didn't go comfort her, which was fucked up, in fairness, Like he didn't check in on her at all after she almost got sent home and like you know, and like they got like separated. So she, but what made it explode?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:22
I mean it was extremely ineffective communication, you know what I mean. She's like first of all exploding behind his back, but he can hear it calling him a bitch, like calling him names and everything. And then the next day they got really into it and she was, like you know, like kind of like stalking him up and down the villa and like screaming like fuck you, you're a bitch, You're a fucking bitch at him, and stuff like that. It was really enjoyable to watch. I can't wait After 12 boring episodes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:59
What is it with us? Who like is it what's wrong with us? I feel like when I hear that I'm like ooh, give me more of that. And like I really, I really like, oh, give me more of that. And like I really, I really like drama. You like drama too, but not as I don't know if as much as I do, but like I just love emotional explosions. Why is that like?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 8:16
I'm gonna like we're gonna teach people in cool of mine how to like regulate them, but I also kind of like love it, you know yeah, well, I mean, for one thing, I would say like I enjoy them less, maybe on shows like the bachelor, where it's more about actually getting to know the people and having, like watching them have deeper conversations and like actually having integrity is kind of important to the show, because you're watching a love story. Love island is like a lot of extremely shallow people and you're not like listening to anything, you're not really buying into it. For the same reasons, like I think you're just wanting to see drama. But in terms of why we like drama, I mean I think a, um, I don't know, let me, let me try to think of some things. I mean one it can be kind of cathartic to see somebody else do the thing you're not allowed to do. Um, I'm not going to explode on somebody, I know that's going to backfire, you know. So, um, watching somebody else do it is kind of interesting.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 9:14
But I think that we're, you know, we're a social species and we are always looking to learn social lessons and emotional lessons, and watching somebody else's catastrophic mistakes can be um, a, it can reassure us that we are doing a good job. And B, I don't know. I think there's something organizing for us about seeing like cause and effect of people's like fucked up behavior, um and. But it's also just drama, right, like we like there's no reality TV. We might think is like a. There's something shameful about liking that drama, but we, if it were, you know, an Oscar nominated movie, it would also have all the elements of coming together and conflict and breaking apart and, you know, defeating obstacles and all of that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:02
So I think there's part of it that's just conflict's interesting I think you're right, making a really good point, that about the social norms, um, and what's taboo. And it's interesting, as you just said, that I remember my boyfriend um years and years ago, um, who I remember we were watching a lot of British, british shows and I just was so surprised by how all of them I mean if you even watch, like the British, the office it really is like someone doing something awkward or saying the wrong thing or upsetting people. And I was like, was like why? And they didn't resolve it, they didn't go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:49
Oh, he's actually a nice guy. It's just like here's some awkward socially like mind blind man and I was like why, why are all British shows like this? And he said, well, we spend so much time trying not to be like, trying to be socially adept or restrained that when, when it's cathartic to see someone messing up, yeah, and that it's a really interesting point about anger and explosions and dysregulation in America, because a lot of people are really angry Right, like politically, socially, just I don't know, like just in the face of a lot of uncertainty and a lot of change.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 11:30
A lot of people feel angry and left out and unseen, right, they feel like forgotten, so they feel angry about it. And then, but the expression of anger is pretty taboo in the U? S. I mean, we're probably like a lot spicier than other cultures, definitely like compared to like British or Japanese or whatever. But we I was trying to think of like different ways that we could express anger in like healthier ways, and there really is a very small, narrow tolerance for it. Right, we quickly go to that's toxic, that's abusive, that's wrong, that makes you a bad person, and so there's a lot of suppression of anger and then, maybe just that tension of holding that in for so long makes explosions a lot more like, much more common right Like when you suppress emotion.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 12:25
You get a lot more of like outburst when they build up. And then it reinforces that cycle right when someone bursts out suddenly and in dramatic ways. Everyone's upset about it. So maybe the whole like emphasis on suppression and control of anger is really like why we're all like exploding all over the place.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 12:48
Yeah, I mean, I think when you like, I feel like I have gotten pretty punished every time I've expressed anger, even more than just like a 3% level, like if I'm a toad, if I'm frustrated, right Like I know I'm going to lose ground, I know it's going to backfire, it's going to it's. It's you know and I do, and I'm sensitive to it, right Like I, you know, um, I don't like having anger directed at me either, and I don't know if I would feel differently about it if I felt like I could express anger sometimes and not be left or, you know, have to do so much cleanup afterwards. But I do think, like in a society where you're not really supposed to express anger, it can also feel especially threatening and scary if you receive it Because it's like we don't you know we don't do this here. What did I do to have you know we don't do this here.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 13:44
Like, what did I do to have, you know, engendered this response from you? And yeah, I mean reality TV is like one place we go to to see it, but it's not like it goes down well there.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 13:58
Yeah, I mean that's the place that we could do public shaming, right. She exploded like oh, out of control, right, they're wrong automatically. Um, yeah, I, I, I mean I've talked about my anger, my relationship with anger and how I'm a more like aggressive or angry person. Um, I even like like, oh, I classify myself right, identify with the anger. But when I was in high school and younger, when I was dealing with a lot of like childhood chaos, um, I was, I mean I was emotionally explosive. I I definitely met criteria for BPD.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 14:40
When I was in high school, I mean I had a boyfriend who we were so explosive and high conflict that it was just like every day was a drama. It really we would have screaming fights on the street. I would like collapse into tears in the middle of, like New York City. We'd be in cabs and get into an argument and one person would like run out at it, at it stops. I mean like, really, like I remember we had a fight once and he was so mad at me that he we got to a stoplight and he was like you and literally left the cab like ran out of the cab, fuck you. And literally left the cab like ran out of the cab and just, you know, just like completely explosive um and and like anger feels good sometimes, like when you, when you have like it, that's like the, the expression of anger is reinforcing because it feels good to get real, to scream, to yell, to like, you know, to. There's a feeling of like ooh, that was energizing, like I got something off my chest.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 15:54
It has like this relieving and energizing feeling to it, so that's why I like trauma.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:01
I guess that's why I like trauma, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of thankful that this episode is not going to be about me for once, because I feel like it's been a lot of me talking recently. But that relationship did sound a little bit like my relationship from 10 years ago, where he would explode on me in the middle of the street and I'd be sobbing and he'd like pretend to stalk away at three in the morning and I'd be like I was like 22 years old, had no money, and so I was just sort of like smiling at that because it's in the past.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 16:33
uh, it just occurred to me how similar those ex-boyfriends were. I mean, we've always talked about them, but they're similar, they're like. They're both like running companies, like start my founders. They, you know. They're both like handsome, wealthy, you know, maybe narcissistic men.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:56
Yours was 18 and mine was 38. At the time, yours had a little bit of a better excuse.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:03
Yeah, totally that's true. You're also a legit psycho.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:09
I mean in terms of throwing gophers off mountains and stuff. Usually I shy away from using the term psycho in a mental health podcast, but if you are going to throw gophers off of a mountaintop, I think I'm going to bring back that term.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:23
Oh my.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:24
God.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:24
Did I ever tell you, did I ever talk about the worst blow up we had On this?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:29
podcast.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:29
I almost like don't want to talk about it Because it's so shameful for me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:34
No, I mean, I just know about the one.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:35
Oh my god.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:36
That you punched him or whatever and everyone wanted you to leave, and then they drove you to the airport and then he was like just kidding, that was all fake.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:43
Oh yeah, that was that fight. Yeah, I'll talk about both of those. So the one in italy oh yeah, that fight was when we were in like another screaming fight, you know screaming fight and, um, he called his family and spoke in a different language and was like basically I didn't know this at the time, but saying like she broke my nose, um, and the family it's actually unclear if he was actually on the phone, because he was like, oh, they, they. He got off the phone and was like okay, they're booking you on a flight tomorrow back home and they never want to see you again and I was like I saw like what I was.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:25
I so confused. I was like crying and stuff. And yeah, the next day we packed up my suitcase and, you know, started to hail a taxi to get to the airport. And then he turned around and was like that didn't really happen, they don't know anything.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:43
I was just kidding.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:44
Yeah, so there was that. And then, and then, um in high school and this is really one of my most like embarrassing stories, Uh, so it's actually like rough to talk about it, but we had been so high conflict like, so dramatic, so explosive um publicly that all of our friends, you know, seen it. And we were all like our whole senior class was um on this like major spring break trip, and so we were all together, all partying, and he and I had a dinner at some point. And he was like you know, I think you have mental health issues. And I was like, yeah, I think I do. I've been very depressed. I, you know, like feel kind of out of control, Like I feel horrible all the time, I don't know what to do. And he was really like supportive. He was like I love you, I want to help you through this. I understand that you've been struggling and we've been fighting as a result. Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, and so we talked about like how I'll get more like talk to a psychiatrist, I don't know. Like we just talked about it, Right, Like he was like you need help, and so um, uh, I you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 19:59
And then we were in the middle of the lobby with all of our friends and we were planning on you know whatever bar we're going to go to, and we got into an argument and then he stepped back and screamed you're mentally ill and bipolar and ruined my life because of it. And everyone turned around and looked at me and I was frozen. I was like I mean, think of talk about like shame. I was like what the you know? Like I just opened up to you like and, but first and then I'm like bipolar disorder. That's not. I don't have that, um, but no shame to people who do. But I was just, you know, like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:45
It just was like he just like screamed at me and was like, and then kept going. He kept like you're, you're insane, you admitted it. Um, this is why everyone thinks you're crazy. Like just like public shaming, yeah, really fucked up. And then I was frozen and then everyone left and then I I really like I blanked out.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:09
I like I went into this like like fugue state, where I was like I need to talk to you, and I pulled him to the side and I slapped him as hard as I could. I really like popped him one across the face, um, which was terrible, like terrible, terrible. I regret that did this very day. It was like my worst moment of my life. Like I just slapped, slapped him so hard that it even left a mark on his face, like it. It like made like side of his face red, um, and then everyone saw that and rumors abound and to this day, this is one of the reasons why I like don't go to like high school reunions. I don't like to be in touch with people from high school, because people, like you know, saw my craziest, lowest moment, where I just lost control of my emotions. So there we go. That's my explosive moment.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 22:09
I'm sorry you feel so much shame about that, obviously like we can't condone physical violence or anything. It's also interesting, though. I feel like if that were a scene in a movie, everyone would be like rooting for you, like we have different expectations on screen versus in reality. But I mean he emotionally slapped the shit out of you. I mean, no, I don't blame you for being that angry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:35
Yeah, I mean I definitely blame myself for how I handled it. I spent so much time learning skills to manage that and manage anger.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:45
And then I also recognize, looking back, that there were many things that he was doing to like set me off. And this is hard to say because it's like I don't want to say, well, it's his fault or he's responsible for the way I acted. But looking back, he, he, he did. I don't know if he sometimes intentionally looked like he was trying to get a rise out of me, like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 23:09
That night seemed weird, like like I'm, I'm saying like a dinner two minutes before where we're talking, and he was like being so comforting and empathetic and then like launching into everything we talked about very publicly and shaming. And then he would also say other things other times like that he had like he prayed that my plane would crash and then like when I would cry at that, he would laugh at me. So just stuff like that where, like I, I think that I was emotionally volatile and then there was dynamics that they're trying to be as professional and balanced as possible, but like it was, it was pretty bananas, like that's not normal no, no, it wasn't no, no, actually.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 23:58
Like when he, when I started crying when he told me he wished that I would die into playing brash, he was like why are you so sensitive, god? This is why you have like, why are you so sensitive, god? This is why you have all these problems. You're so sensitive. I was just kidding.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 24:10
I mean I'm so sorry you got that shame and like fuck that guy. I mean that's just not normal behavior. I'm not allowed to say he deserved it. But it's hard for me not to think it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:26
I mean, this person is now becoming a wildly successful startup CEO, so just keep that in mind guys, when you look on LinkedIn. Yeah, anyway, sorry getting deep, all right, let's you know like get professional.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 24:49
What causes blowups? Okay, yeah, so what causes blowups? So I think it's a difficult question to answer. I mean, I think there are like things that one person can do that can make it blow up more likely in the other person, but it's it's hard to put that all on them.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:07
I mean, I think a lot of times people have blows because you know they don't have skills, or maybe they are from a culture where it's more acceptable, um or um, it's what was modeled for them, right, or it's.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:22
You know, like I I saw a couple where you know I work at the VA and like there were a lot of explosions in part just because, like after you are in the military, especially in combat, your baseline nervous system is like I mean your blood pressure, you know, high, right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:40
So if you are like in PTSD, right, there are a lot of blow ups because your nervous system is already so frayed and like you're ready for, you know, like, attack at any time that it just takes a millisecond to like, it just takes a little something to like put you over the edge. So I mean I think there are tons of tons of different reasons for it and some are more acceptable than others. I mean, I have to say like we're talking about how it doesn't feel socially acceptable in America to explode or to express anger. But it's hard to argue with a little bit because a lot of times anger is expressed more vociferously, it involves name calling or aggressive posturing right or like shouting, shouting over another person. So it's kind of hard to like think of. You know, are we suppressing it too much? Or is it because those behaviors are pretty not OK? I don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:44
Yeah, and I'm wondering why it's so hard for us to get angry and not get to low blows Like. Why is it so hard? Like? What we're really talking about here is a lot of people will get angry with each other for behavior. Right Like I was upset at the things that he said in public in front of our friends, and when you get that explosive, it could feel like this person's bad and I'm fighting against a bad person. I'm fighting against a bad guy, right and like. Instead of being like I'm angry at what you did, it really can become like you're a bad, you're toxic, you're a bad person. Right, Like, so it gets. It gets into these bigger levels where you're just. It's just like almost like it feels like defending your honor or values or personhood against someone else's who is like a threat to that.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:49
Yeah, I mean, well, when you're angry, I mean there is a dehumanizing element to it. I think there is a dehumanizing element to it. I think, like, if you feel entitled to explode at another person, then it seems as though you feel entitled to aggress against them in some way to make them small, to assert your dominance over them, their power and I don't know how. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, making character attacks is a natural consequence of, you know, feeling like you're justified in behaving that way. You know, and there also might be some catharsis in saying the little thoughts that you always have to push down because they're not quite justifiable or they're not quite effective enough, and so just being able to unleash them all is like that is what feels good, I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 28:58
I think you can certainly effectively express anger, but I don't know that you can effectively explode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it, it, it, the whole, like I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:06
Emotions love themselves, and as soon as you feel something, it like your mind will just attach to all the different things that will confirm that feeling. So when you're angry at I'm angry at this behavior, it quickly becomes. You always do this and your mind will figure out and fixate on all the things that are in line with that behavior to show that it's a pattern, and then it shows a character trait. You are always doing this, you are crazy, you are whatever, and then it just like amplifies the anger so you feel like more justified. It's being like what you said really hurt my feelings to this degree um yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:48
So the power thing is interesting too. I feel like like maybe this is americans, maybe this is everyone in the world, but like the idea of what we have power over or control over is really really tough. Like it's do you have control over your job? Do you have control over whether people are racist against you or not? Do you have control over your relationships and your children? Like, do I have control over my future and whether we could afford a house or get into world war three? Like there's a lot of things that we're like uh, like there are. We get the sense that there's like powers that be, aka the government or you know whatever that feel out of our control and it's really hard to understand.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 30:33
What is is our in control. What is in our control is sometimes like the people who are attached to right like sometimes it feels like some people mistake it for intimacy where, like I, can be my true self around this person, like this, this partner, my wife, my kids or whatever like I have to. I have to perform and keep it all in in the world but I can really let loose and be my true, like unfiltered self around my family which means that I'm like, sometimes the worst self around them, so the explosion sometimes are confused as like I could be my authentic self around, around these people.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 31:17
Yes, I think Linehan did a good job flipping the script on that, where she made wise mind your true self. She made, like you know your wisdom, right. Your your best self. Your true self and is like you know these other parts of you. That's maybe like emotion running a show or, but that's not actually the values led Like, um, you know, like I I wouldn't say that me exploding in rage is my true self.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 31:47
I would say that, like me being the person that makes me proud of myself is my true self because it's who I want to be, it's who I strive to be, it's who I believe in, right, but I do think that, yeah, a lot of people feel like the ultimate would just just be able to like not have to think about how you present or are in relation to others. Um, and you know, I mean there's something to that like that's more maybe who I am with, like my mom, maybe like I can be more annoying to her than other people, but I don't really know that that feels like my true self. That just feels like I have permission to be kind of a dick sometimes because she'll love me anyway.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:31
I mean, but that's interesting. That's interesting like how people feel like their base emotions or the unfiltered emotion, unregulated emotions, that feels like who they authentically are. I think that there's research that talks about authenticity and a lot of people, um, when they're asked what's my authentic self, they will say my authentic self is the way I act and who I am when I don't have to think about it, when I don't have to like, control or manage or exert effort to be.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:04
It's just like a spontaneous, almost like automatic behavior and for a lot of people that is just the way they are. When they're like emotional, when they feel like a kid, where they feel like you know and the whole like how can I express my anger in ways that is effective and balances, like compassion for the other person, that could feel like not their true self because it's like effortful right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:28
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:29
But I think you're right that, like these, long term goals and values are also who we are authentically.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:35
But anyway, you know, I kind of have these questions about. When people say masking, like I have to mask a lot, I'm like, well, duh, I mean, is that a bad thing though? Like, what are we, you know? And like I, you know, I appreciate internal family systems too for saying like, no, we're a series of parts and and the the true self. There's a sense of the true self there too, but it is also the self that is more connected with maturity values. You know, like, if we think about right, like are we more our true selves when we are inhabiting our prefrontal cortex or our lizard brain, like our amygdala, like what people say, and I think most people would say the pfc, but yet, yeah, and of course it is great to feel natural and be natural with another person, but, um, that feels, that feels different than the, than the, you know being entitled to just unleash yeah, yeah, I I am.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:38
Maybe I'm just affected by conversations I've had with our clients who have said, who struggle with a partner with emotion dysregulation, who have anger outbursts, and they're they'll be like you know, the way you exploded on me, uh was awful, I you know, like can you, you do something different? And then the partner who's more explosive will be like, well, now I can't be my true self. Now you're saying that I can't be express my feelings right and like my feelings are, and now I have to hold myself in. Um, so this it's just interesting to think about, like how some explosive and high conflict couples or just like explosive relationships are about. Like, oh, I feel like I could. Just I'm here and, like a fan, I have a fantasy and wish that you would love me so much that I can act however I wanted to, and you still love me and be here, right, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 35:34
I mean that sounds great, but I mean really think about, like, what an explosion is.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 35:37
I mean, you know, working with couples like high conflict couples if I have, you know, a couple where, like the man explodes a lot, then there are nervous system consequences at the very least for the other partner. I'm choosing man here because men, um, men are like physically bigger, um, and have the like ability to aggress more, and so I think this is just like a better illustration of my point. But obviously it can work both ways. But if you've got a six, three giant dude yelling at you right, like even if they're not saying anything insulting, then that's going to really just regulate the other person's nervous system. It's going to throw them into fight or flight or freeze, really probably more likely, you know it's. It's gonna make it really hard to feel safe and it's like is that what it means to be yourself, like, is that who? Is that what you want your partner accepting and like loving about you? Right, is your ability to make her feel scared and threatened yeah, I mean it's.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:43
I mean doing what you did before. To be fair to the, to the men um, I have a previous study that shows that men and women are equally likely to um perpetrate intimate partner violence. But we might not.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:57
They might have a different like impact on the partner. If, like a small woman is like slapping their husband versus like a six three girl, you know, man, but yeah, I think I just imagine that if you're in a close relate, like that attachment bond, not just like a friend or someone you're dating, but like attachment bond, not just like a friend or someone you're dating, but like I'm married to them. This is my family. Now you might have this fantasy of of what you would get from a parent which, oh my god, now. Now my son is like in Tantrum City, like he is now pushing the boundaries and he was like thrash and kick and scream when he doesn't get what he wants. And I'm going to, I'm not going to. You know, I'm not scared, I'm not like I'm kind of overwhelmed, but like I got to love him, I'm loving him and I'm staying steady and I'm staying there for him, like through the ups and downs, right, and so you're kind of like, oh, that's what love should be, or that's what I want to get. Is this unconditional?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:58
I can act out and explode and you'll still love me and be there yeah, I mean and this brings me we've had this conversation so many times right where I don't but like I think people are looking for is parental love, and I think a lot of people who haven't had good parental love it fucking sucks because they are missing out on something. They are missing out on you know what it's like to know that you could explode. And I mean I asked, I asked, I like, I did this Instagram poll and I asked Jason this all the time it's like if your kid murdered someone, would you turn them in or help them hide the body? Like parents, you know, like they the. The idea that you could do the worst, the worst of human behavior and still be loved Like that is special. I just don't think it's appropriate for our partners or friends.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:47
Yeah, I mean you're right. So what are the different things that can escalate conflict Like? What are the? What are the missteps besides for screaming about my mental health status in front of my?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:07
entire senior class.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:11
What else could possibly lead to an explosion?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:15
Yeah, I mean so many things. I think ticket item is character attacks. I mean that's going to be the fastest one to get there. But you know, I also think, like explaining people's behavior to them can be really unpleasant. Like what? Because that's what we tell people. No, I mean like you came home late because you don't care about me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:37
I mean like. I mean like you, like you came home late because you don't care about me. Oh, like making like um inferences, and like making like like accusatory, um making accusations, and and um, uh, what do you call it? Like interpretations based on their behavior.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:53
Yeah, but that's not necessarily. I mean, that's kind of a character attack, but it's not necessarily a character attack, but it's not necessarily a character attack.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:58
It could be like you, you know, like you talk to that girl at the bar because you know, like you're not, you're losing interest in me or something Like that's not a character attack, but it would still kind of piss the other person off. If it's not true, it's not true. So I just think like explaining people's behavior to them using your own interpretation is just opens the door for that person to then say no, that's not true, and like how dare you tell me who I am? Or like why I do the things that I do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:29
Mm, hmm, it's, it's I'm trying to think about. I'm trying to think about this on the spot it's. It's like the shift, this mindset shift, of going from I'm we're working towards a solution to a problem together, like a collaborative problem solving mindset, to one of like war, of like this is my enemy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:58
And this enemy is here as a threat to what I believe in, what I, who I am, what I stand for. Right, it's like you don't care about me, right, it's. That's different than like when you do this, I feel this. It makes me feel this like what I want is that right, that's like a problem solving, let's work through it. Versus like I've slammed the door, I've I. I am characterizing you as a person who is on the outs and I'm gonna I'm gonna treat you as such, right?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 41:32
I'm trying to think about, like, what happens when people explode that deeply and dehumanizes the other person yeah, well, I mean, this is why shame is such an easy trigger for for explosions, because shame feels. When you feel shame, you feel as though you are dehumanized and so in order to write the scales again, right, then you have to like tear down the other person. Um, so you know, anything that's going to elicit shame you should be careful about, basically about how you, how you go about that. Um, I think traditionally we tell people to make I statements, but I statements even can look really different depending on what they are right, like the I statement you know, I feel like you don't care about me is better than you don't care about me. But it also kind of just puts an I feel in front of a statement about the other person.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:26
You know, I think a more obvious one would be like I feel like you're inconsiderate, or I feel like you were being inconsiderate. You know it's better than saying you were definitely objectively inconsiderate, but it still is going to like bring up shame in the other person. Um, chat gpt gave a good uh example where, instead of being like I feel disrespected when you cut me off, saying I feel disrespected when I'm cut off or something like that, it keeps the focus on the I instead of bringing into the Now. Obviously, you can't never call out another person for their behavior. You can't be that perfect all the time, but as much as you can, I think keeping it to your side of the street is going to be helpful.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:19
Mm-hmm, can I think keeping it to your side of the street is going to be helpful? Yeah, the side of the street is so subtle because it there's different ways to do it. It's not just the words, it's also like tone and intention where this I statement, which is you know, a solution to the conflict is um, uh, it's like is I'm going to own my side of it, right?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:39
And I'm going to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:40
I'm going to acknowledge that I have a side of it, but also acknowledge that you also have a side of it. So if I say I feel like you don't care about me versus like you know, when you do this, it may, it brings up all the stuff in me, it makes me feel like like you don't care about me and no.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:58
I know. I know, I know and I'm trying to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:01
I'm trying to like shift the way I'm thinking about it, where I'm just completely owning it, versus like saying let's say, you don't hear back from somebody for a while, right, so instead of I feel like you didn't respond to me because you don't care about me, or like I feel like you don't care about me when you don't respond.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:19
It could be when people don't respond to me, I can feel insecure that they don't like me or they don't want me or something like that. Right, like it's about. It's about me. The other person can't argue with that. It's about me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:38
The other person can't argue with that. I mean, we could also make it more precise in the relationship where it's like when you don't call me, I wonder if you even care.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:55
And where my mind goes to you know, thoughts about, like you, not caring about me, right, because it might be we don't want to. You wouldn't want to take it too far and be like I'm an insecure person and when you know for everyone who does this, not just you, don't worry about it, right? It's like I don't know, like this is, this is the pattern and this is how I'm reacting to it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:13
I mean, yeah, it's just like it's not wrong to say when you do this, I feel like you don't care about me, like that might need to be said. It's just that if your aim is to not bring up explosiveness or defensiveness in the other person, keeping it on your side of the street as much as possible is going to benefit that. But sometimes making another person mad is okay, right, like it's worth it. Basically.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 45:41
They need to know how their behavior affects you. You know another thing that I was thinking about that leads to explosions and leads to, like this, really intense anger. I'm trying to work it out out loud right now, but the feeling that you could do something about it, like the helplessness, and the feeling you don't have agency and this is just the way it is and it's bad, yeah, for me, leads to so much more intense emotion. I'm thinking about, like a conflict that I have with my mother and I've said several times, like the way you say things or the way you like curse me out when blah, blah, blah, like that, that really upset me and made me like not want to see you um and I try to do all my clinical skills of, like you know, um validating, blah, blah, pointing out to the direct behavior.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:32
But my hypothesis is that she doesn't. She doesn't have enough awareness or control over her behavior, so she goes so to see that this is something that she can change and do something about, because she'll be like well then, you just hate me, you just hate who I am, and I will say no, I hate what you did or I hate what you said, but if you don't feel like that, you can really have control over something.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:57
Like if you don't feel like the way you say things is a skill or something you could work on. You might take that as a like a little bit more of an attack of my personhood, because it feels like something that I, something I just am and I can't control.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:11
Right, I think, yeah for sure. I think, yeah for sure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:24
Um, I would feel I probably feel that way about like ADHD type stuff, where I was thinking if I, if I said like like you come late to things versus like you have ADHD, right, those are the two different like I'm, I imagine that it would lead to two different reactions in you of like you know either helplessness. Of like I'm being attacked. I don't know you. You, you tell me you come late to things.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:48
I do think that I think that, like, emotional immaturity really can leave some people helpless to change their behavior, and so, when that behavior is called out, it can feel really threatening, um, and it can feel like a character attack, because maybe it kind of is, maybe that behavior is kind of part of your current character.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:13
Like, if you don't have the ability to change it, then, uh, I don't know, maybe that's who you are and you know. For I personally believe if you work hard with a therapist, yes, you can change it, but I can see how it would feel like that's as you know, that's as good as it's going to get, and I think ADHD can kind of feel like that sometimes. Right, like, um, if people are getting mad at me for being disorganized all the time, then I can start feeling helpless about that and feeling like, yeah, there's not that much I can do about it. Of course there is, but it can feel as though there's not that much I can do about it, and then I might be more sensitive to it or something that's interesting, but I don't think. I don't think that shame is the only reason people get mad at other people, right? I think unfairness is a big one. If I blame you for something I do all the time, that's not necessarily going to standards, yeah definitely.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 49:22
And also, like we talk a lot about this, but invalidation, right, it's like when you are at such a high level of emotion, does this happen any other place? I think anger is one of those things, like fights are one of those things that it really can bounce off someone else's anger. Like you really escalate each other's anger quickly, cause I'm thinking about any other emotion, like if I'm feeling really ashamed, it's not necessarily going to trigger shame in you, right? If I'm like, oh, I feel so embarrassed, you're not going to trigger shame in you, right? If I'm like, oh, I feel so embarrassed, you're not going to be like me too. Now, like it's like, but like I, I think anchor is one of those things that it's just like because it's like this fight, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 50:08
Response um you could really like bounce off each other really quickly and explode, and when that happens, then you're both at max dysregulation, like, like intense levels of emotion, the same emotion, and when we we know when we're in intense emotion, we turn our attention inwards, so we are more thinking about survival. And how do I feel better than like, oh, it's two of us and we're in like, let me think flexibly about your perspective. My perspective it's like no, no, no, my mind is narrowing on what's going to make me feel better. So you have two people just like focusing on themselves, like at each other yeah, I mean.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:47
That's why the reframe of like it's us against the problem is so much healthier than like it's us, you, it's me against you, if you can figure out even the reframe into and I saw this in your notes but like the reframe into it's us against the problem of our communication, which is different than like it's us against our housing crisis. It's like this is about us, like it is about how we're bad, you know how we're, we're not effective, um, in communication with each other. But still it can be reframed to oh gosh, we love each other. But this thing comes up between us. It's so hard to figure out and here it is again and like let's you know, let's like work on that yeah, that a like a little nugget of wisdom from emotionally focused therapy and family systems therapy like couples and family therapy is framing it like you're dealing with a common enemy which is one of the strategies for getting people to bond is get another common enemy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:56
So the idea of like instead of you're the problem, but this cycle is the problem. This dynamic is the problem. How do we break this together, right? Oh, the cycle's here again. Let's battle against that instead of each other. Yeah, it's nice.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:14
What are other reasons? So I think unfairness is a big one. I think that we as a species, even though life is inherently unfair, there is something in us that's important to keep trying to write the scales of justice, to make sure that, because if we can, I think, have as fair of a society as possible, then you know that's probably a good thing. You know that's probably a good thing, and so I think we can balk at that.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:40
I also think sometimes we can just get mad that something isn't changing, like I think Xenopil from Love Island was this, this guy who did not get explosive but he did clearly like stop liking her and get like pissed was. She was just always like kind of nagging him about a certain thing or like always treating him she's like good boy, like good job, as if he was like a little kid, and I don't think that actually brought up shame in him. I think that that was just straight up pissing him off like you're not gonna treat me that way, you're not stopping. I feel I feel dogged and like pursued in a way, like I can't, this thing won't go away. It's like you know, if a mosquito keeps biting you you're gonna get pissed.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 53:30
So sometimes, then, it's just that problem yeah, I mean we could talk about the we about this before, but bringing up the Gottman, john Gottman, the couples researcher, in this Four Horsemen Four Horsemen are the things that like ruin a relationship and it's criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. So these are all different ways of not letting the other person in, like shutting the person out, but also especially contempt and criticism, also defensiveness, but these are all things of that are all different ways that people might put the bad stuff in the other person, like blame the other person for all the bad and then because of that, you become like superior.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:25
So it's like these power dynamics that we talk about, where, if you're saying like good boy, that really that's like it's a little contempt, right, that might be like nice, but it really does communicate Like I think I'm better than you. I'm above you and you're not equal to me, you all, you have all the bad stuff that I have to correct, and I'm the voice of reason. So that that's, that's a really, you know, quick way to ignite some fires.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:51
Yeah, it's like I never want to tell my friends that I'm proud of them, because that feels like you know what I mean. So I'll usually say like I'm impressed or something. Like they just like change it to more of a relationship of equals. That's interesting. But yeah, kind of the same, like I don't want to suggest that. I was like waiting around for you to like prove yourself or something, and now I'm like like it's just a parental kind of.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 55:23
Yeah, superior. Or, even worse, like a boss right, like I I'm in charge of telling you how to behave, right? So, um, and that could really that. I see, I see that dynamic a lot with with, uh, families like these married couples with kids, where the mother or even like other you know father, but like someone who, who was more in the parent role and the one like managing the family activities and then, because of that, there's this power dynamic.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 55:46
There's a head of the household where someone's like organizing the activities and figuring out the right way to discipline, and then the other parent kind of gets lumped into like a hierarchy where they all have to listen to the boss, and that might be the case, because that's just like the emotional labor of women. But then what does that leave the men? It makes them like second in command which feels shitty Like, even if it's a for a good thing, like getting dinner done, you know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 56:21
Yeah, I mean, you know there are interesting consequences to gender equality, right, Like in the past, the man being the head of the household, I think maybe, like, companies typically work better if there's one leader, but too bad, like that's not how it works anymore, so we got to figure out how to have a two leader household, um, but but yeah, so those kind of power plays or, um, positioning yourself above another person is going to probably piss your partner or friend off pretty quickly to probably piss your partner or friend off pretty quickly.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:01
That's really interesting, yeah. And so, like, if you're in an explosive relationship, like think about, like do you really are you the one that is in charge of teaching? Like, do you believe that you're in the role of teaching the other person how to do it the right way?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:18
like even that belief. Sometimes I've heard like, oh, you know, they get upset that when they make dinner. Um, you know, like they feel like they can never do it right but like they don't do it right. Am I right? I'm like, yeah, but that's gonna feel bad, right, that's gonna feel like then the other person's gonna get angry and and defensive. If you think that you housed the right way.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 57:41
Yeah, I mean an explosion is a reassertion of power. I mean, because you are interesting, I like that. I mean I think so. I don't think I can poke a hole in it. You are aggressing towards the other person. In a sense, you are making yourself big and intimidating. That to me feels like an assertion of power and that could come if you feel like you need to like punish your inferior, or it can feel like you are the inferior and so you need to like reassert yourself and, like you know, write the scales never works, but I like this, I like this works.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 58:18
But I like this like reframe of explosion, of reassertion of power, because it really does fit in with how powerless a lot of people feel right now. Why? They're getting like explosive kind of it's kind of like how I felt that, like that little nugget that we landed on with entitlement about. Like that, all social interactions are a transaction and an agreement between two people and entitlement is like I want to get what I want.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:43
I want to get the things out of you, but I don't want to do the things that I agree to you so great, love it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 58:49
Um, well, I mean, we've we've already went through a bunch of tips about how to you know, kind of like soften emotional explosion. One is like the true I statement, not just like I'm sorry you feel? That way or like, but a real like, owning your side.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 59:05
I feel like you're an asshole, Like that's not an I statement yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 59:08
I feel like you're a bad, you're a toxic person. I said an I statement Good for me, yeah, good boy statement. Good for me, yeah, good boy. Um, but the Gottman method will talk about the um, the different ways, the antidotes to the war horseman. So, instead of criticism like coming at someone with criticism and blame for why they did something wrong but use a gentle startup, which is kind of what I statement, so we talked about before instead of being like you're, it's all your fault. It's like it was a gentle startup, which is kind of what I statement, so we talked about before.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 59:37
Instead of being like it's all your fault, it's like when you did this thing, I felt really hurt Instead of defensiveness, taking responsibility, owning your part, even if it's like a kernel of truth, like even a small kernel of truth, but like I get that the way I said things really hurt your feelings, even though I didn't mean to, yeah, or like I didn't make a mistake, I didn't mean to do this thing to hurt your feelings. Right, contempt, the antidote is appreciation I had expressing, thinking about and expressing why you appreciate and respect your partner. I mean, when someone's really pissed off and really resentful, like that might be hard to access because you might be thinking of all the things, but it really is. It really is a good exercise to be like why do I appreciate this person, what are they good at, what do they do for me, what do they do for the family? And really expressing it. One of my patients said what I'm supposed to just like thank my husband for doing the dishes like I do every night. Like, yeah, yeah, I mean what?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:51
does it cost?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:00:51
you to say thank you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:52
What Husbands are puppies, so are are wives. Everyone's just a puppy. It needs to be trained. Positive reinforcement works.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:00:59
Oh, yeah, yeah I thought you were dipping into the love island strategy of like good boy, good job. Oh no, which is?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:01:08
which is not what you want to do it's just like, if you know, I would do it more with gratitude rather than good job, good boy, um, but yeah, I mean, I think, like with, with criticism, I you know, it just depends on how far down the line you are. Like, I think Jason will sometimes maybe like criticize my organization or cleanliness through like humor which does not rankle me Right, like, like, but that also might not be completely effective for getting me to change, cause I'm like he thinks I'm cute, I'm funny, cause I'm so bad at things. But anyway, if you want to just draw somebody's attention to something and be like, yeah, so this is actually how you do it, then I think humor can be a good, a good way.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:01:56
Yeah, that is a good, a good way. Yeah, that's a good one. Using humor yeah, yeah, gentle, startup and like humor in a really nice collaborative way. That's not like mean, but like this is inside joke um sometimes I'll be like baby.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:12
Can I just say something? So I really love you. You're just, you know, just the best ever, just like light of my life, you know. And I'm like starting to giggle at this point, like all right, what's the criticism? Like it's obviously like really trying to compliment, sandwich it, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:02:28
So yeah, I don't know yeah, I don't know if that works anymore, the compliment sandwich, but just because, like when you hear that, I'm just like, all right, it's it's a tone that you're leading into something right. I really love you. You're great at so many things, however, and you're like oh, just get to, you know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:47
Just fine, just tell me because in a way that's aiming to get me to laugh. You know, it's like kind of absurdist. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah no, I know that is. The problem with the compliment sandwich is that you're just like, all right, I get it. That was the bread. What's the actual criticism meat?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:03:02
yeah, yeah so use that with caution. Um, the last, the last tip from the gotman method is that instead of stonewalling, which is like a shutdown, like if someone is so dysregulated and upset that they kind of shut out the other person, stop talking and or like, even give them the like, more of like a cold shoulder, the antidote to that is self-soothing and then, re-engaging in a genuine way.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:03:30
So John Gottman said that he thinks that he could solve most couples fights by insisting on a 20 minute break. So taking a 20 minute breather physiologically is a good amount of time that, on average, people can calm down to a level where they can reengage and talk in a more productive way. So I mean even just even if you want to do like a hey, we are in this together against this explosive pattern of fighting, let's do the 20 minutes and like let's just cue each other when we need to do it. So just like literally set a timer, look at the clock and like go take a walk or take a break for 20 minutes and then see what happens. Just like notice how the walk or take a break for 20 minutes and then see what happens.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:04:16
just like notice how the conversation changes after that break I guess I get a little bit skeptical of like his suggestion sometimes because it's like okay, the antidote to defensiveness is taking accountability. It's like, yeah, but if you have a strong, if you have struggles with defensiveness, it's going to be really hard to just like. Like it's something that is you need to like really learn over time. There's some. I mean that is the antidote, right? It's like, okay, but first you have to notice it like okay, I'm, I'm at risk of getting defensive and that is at risk of meaning that I'm just gonna have to spend all day tomorrow apologizing or, like you know, it's a risk of breaking down this relationship. So I need a really compelling reason to want to not do this. Okay, Like, I'm going to fake it till I make it. You know, like, try to validate whatever I can validate. Um, I, I guess I just like.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:05:08
A lot of times, people, you know they have good reasons for being defensive or for stonewalling or for you know any of these things. And it feels like when I suggest timeouts to my clients, A, they don't take them. Or B, and I teach them all the rules. Right, you got to come back, you got to set a time. Like you got to set a time for coming back and just tell the person where you're going to be, like all of these things and I don't know, it just either doesn't happen or it's not enough. Um, because in the moment right, Like in the moment when you're angry, you just want to annihilate, and it's really hard to get into your, into your head and say this isn't going to go where I want it to go. Like I think low level exploders, yet like I don't know Absolutely, If you are stonewalling, it probably means you're in a kind of a freeze response and so you need to be able to soothe your nervous system to be able to re-engage.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:06:12
Um, yeah, yeah, I think that like thinking about the goal is helpful, right, like you don't want to go from defending yourself to like taking all the blame for no reason. You want to be like, all right, it is not going to go anywhere If I spend all this time denying everything that person's saying.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:06:33
That hurts their feelings and blaming them. I didn't do that. I didn't mean that you were the one right. Like that's not going to help. Yeah, like there might be a fear of like if I admit to anything, I'm a losing battle. But if you're thinking the goal is to make them feel better, figure out a better way, be right. You know even to say like yeah, you're right, I did say that and that that wasn't nice.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:07:00
However, I have all these other feelings right Like to, to be fair with the, with the goal of like okay, if I'm going to take this break, if I'm going to take accountability, my goal is to soften this explosion and not get into a screaming throwing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:07:16
Hitting match right right, yeah, with breaks, I I think that, yeah, you have to tell them when you're going to come back, or at least check in. You have to tell them where you're going. But also, like, for the love of god, do something distracting during that break, because I just I think a thing that happens is people just sit there stewing, yeah, and then they come back and they think of 20 more reasons why they should be mad. But that's like so hard to do. So sometimes with breaks I'm like, do I even want to suggest that?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:07:47
I mean I take, I take like a day break, which is terrible for Alex.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:07:53
But I really.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:07:54
But I do it because I'm like, whatever. If I'm just going to snap at him and say all the things that, like, my anger wants me to say in this moment, then I'm just going to be blamed and this is going to be entirely about how I'm. I'm going to have to apologize and I'm going to be the bad guy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:08:11
So I'm going to go and spend a day in bed watching horror movies that's like my thing and texting you and texting caitlin and all her friends about how awful and all the, all, the naughty thing, all the anger thoughts and tricks to my friends and then get some validation. And then, and just I, I wait until I get from a place of anger to like my fear and sadness and hurt and shame, which is really what's driving my anger. And then when I'm about to cry or when I do start crying. That's when I decide to ask Alex to talk again, because then I know that I can, I could talk to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:08:52
I mean, it doesn't always go well, but at least is way better than if I were to react to that moment when I come to him and say like I'm really hurt and I'm crying and not like angry. I think that goes differently, at least.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:09:07
So yeah, no, I like that. Um. I think the problem is some people won't. Their emotion won't go down. Um, like it won, it won't switch. They'll keep the anger alive because it's too hard to be vulnerable, it's too threatening to be vulnerable, and so they'll refuse to go into softness, which I do think is going to be more likely, with men allowed to be soft and they're definitely not allowed to cry. So but I, but I do really like that rule in general of saying when I'm in this emotional state, it's not going to be effective, so I'm not going to engage until I'm, until I'm up, until I've met the real emotion that underlies it. Problem is that the anger is really justified.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:09:50
That's a pretty tough rule to follow because then, then take, then really think about what is the goal here? What do I?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:09:58
want out of this.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:09:59
Like do I want to defend myself? Do I want to um point out an unfairness?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:10:06
Well you're not going to do that as effectively in the heat of the moment than if you have a 20 minute break. Chill out, really craft your words, maybe talk to a friend, talk to a coach or therapist, work out all the feelings and really figure out what you want to say. Right, think about it as like not just like how do I become a vulnerable puddle again, but like what do I want to, what do I really need and what do I, how do I want this to turn out and what's the best way to get there?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:10:32
Yeah, yeah, if you are somebody who goes to contempt, so, yes, the antidote is appreciation and gratitude, but I would try to think about what feels so good about contempt and understand that that is the horseman that has the worst outcomes. So, if you are stuck in that place, know that your relationship is threatened. If that's where you are and sometimes it's not terrible to have contempt, but it might mean that you're in a wrong relationship. Like you should not, because being at the other end of contempt is terrible, feeling contempt for your partner is terrible. So, right, it's like what is the function of this, right? Is this? Is this keeping me safe in some way? Is this keeping me from being hurt by my partner in some way? Am I genuinely disgusted by my partner?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:11:20
In which case, like you know that that is, that's a sign that something needs to change. Um, yeah, your relationship configuration, or how much access you should be having to that person. Um, so, if it's, if it's really really a struggle to come up with things that you appreciate about your partner or your friend, then really have you know, just really think about that yeah, yeah, that led to my divorce yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and then yeah and then still.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:12:00
I mean so that that is maybe an indication that you're in a bit of a freeze response, going to self-soothe can be really helpful. Figuring out what kind of communication from your partner would would help you not go into that. Like you know, um shut down frozen state is really important, so yeah, so I think if, if we wrap here tips um kivy, do you have a resource for us?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:12:27
yeah, in fact I do um. So again, I'll link the guide to de-escalatingions. It kind of lists out a lot of things that we talk about here, but in a PDF file that you can save and refer to it when you guys are exploding.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:12:43
Amazing. Well, kibbe, I don't want to explode to you if we don't get any five-star ratings on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. To you if we don't get any five-star ratings on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. So I'm going to ask, for I feel I feel like our listeners are dickheads if they don't do that. And so, in order, I don't know, I'm losing the thread of this. We'll see you guys next week. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty. Thank you, your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call. Thank you, adorsement.
