Ep. 194- BPD Rage: Why Anger in Borderline Personality Disorder Feels Uncontrollable and How Loved Ones Can Calm It
This episode explores the biology and nature of anger in borderline personality disorder ("BPD Rage") and practical strategies family members, friends and partners can use to respond to BPD rage.
Some people get angry, while some people just see red. In this episode, Dr. Kibby lifts the veil on what’s happening in the brain during these emotional storms and shares proven strategies to manage, soothe, and respond effectively. You might feel helpless as your loved one spirals into a rage that lasts for hours, fueled by triggers deep in their brain’s emotional wiring. Dr. Kibby unpacks why BPD rage is so overwhelming, rooted in hyper-reactive amygdalas, weak prefrontal regulation, and a cascade of shame and rejection fears. It's not about bad character or being "evil," but a biological response, amplified by social triggers like betrayal, abandonment, or misunderstood intentions. These emotional storms often appear suddenly, with the flip of a switch, and how they can mimic psychosis or demon-like behavior, leaving loved ones terrified and powerless. Dr. Kibby breaks down the neuroscience behind BPD rage, including the brain’s regulatory pathways.
Then, the conversation offers practical, research-backed communication techniques that help de-escalate these heightened states. Dr. Kibby shares specific scripts and real-life stories that reveal how these tools can prevent escalation, reduce personal attacks, and promote healing instead of blame. Learn why acknowledging the emotional experience, rather than dismissing it, is crucial for injury prevention and long-term connection. Most importantly, she emphasizes that setting boundaries around dangerous behavior isn’t about blame- it’s about safety and self-care. Whether you’re a parent, partner, or therapist, this episode offers a compassionate, no-nonsense blueprint to handle BPD rage.
Resources:
Talk to Dr. Kibby about KulaMind, where she supports people dealing with their loved ones' emotional issues
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0:00Hi guys, welcome to a little help for.
Our Friends a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental.
Health.
Welcome back, little helpers.
Today I'm going to be talking about BPD rage, the explosive, uncontrollable and sometimes scary anger that comes with borderline personality sorting.
0:23
I'm going to talk about this today because I know that I've been talking a lot about BPD lately and how to manage someone with BPD and that's because I am just getting so many DMS, emails, conversations with our cool of mine clients.
0:39
By the way, if you have a loved one with borderline personality sorter or any other kind of, you know, high conflict, intense emotional problems, then check out Koolamine KUL AM Ind.
That's my program for supporting people who have these kind of relationships, Like if you have a, you know, adult child with BPD or you're married to someone or someone's in your family that has BPD or trauma or anything like that.
1:08
I teach all the skills for how to actually manage someone like this in your life about losing yourself.
So check it out in the show notes.
KUL AM ind.com.
So I in in kool of mine in this program, talking to a lot of people with these kind of relationships with people with BPD, mostly parents and partners of people with BPD, and the questions are very similar.
1:33
It's like, what do I do when my husband or my child just rages at me?
And this is often looked like there's a disagreement or there's just like a missed a miscommunication somehow, right?
1:51
Like someone, their loved one comes up to them and says something about how they're upset and the other person doesn't respond in the way they're hoping for.
And then there's like an explosion of a fight.
There's yelling, screaming, blaming, and I'm seeing this more in text.
2:07
I'm seeing this like text after text after text from like your kid or your partner.
That's like rage filled, right?
Like you're the worst.
You're abusing me.
I hate you and you know I want you to die or hate like like awful, awful things and sometimes big paragraphs of text and sometimes just multiple, multiple texts throughout the night, right?
2:33
So this is the kind of BBD rage I'm seeing.
A lot of it can be fueled by marijuana or other kind of drugs.
So if you're in the situation and your loved one saying a bunch of stuff that doesn't make any sense, it can be just intense emotion.
2:52
But sometimes it does get in the level of psychosis where it just seems like completely not attached to reality.
So you could have different levels of this BPD rage and the it's it's really, really tough because it feels like an A bomb's going off.
3:09
And sometimes it just, it feels like maybe like a machine gun coming out.
Bam, bam, bam, bam, anger, anger, anger and nothing new things working, nothing you're doing.
And you're like, wow, my loved 1 is like crazy.
And I, you know, I don't know what to do.
3:25
I don't know what to say.
Am I being abused?
Do I leave?
Like, what is going on here?
And then they might pretend.
I don't even pretend, but they might act like nothing happened.
The next day, right when they're feeling better, it's like it's all gone, right?
Maybe they throw things, maybe they destroy property.
3:42
Maybe they hurt themselves or hurt you.
But the rage in borderline personality disorder, also in trauma and addiction and a lot of other disorders, that tends to be what scares loved ones the most.
All right.
But you have other symptoms of BBD, like they have a hard time knowing who they are, like having a strong sense of identity or depression, stuff like that.
4:07
And that is really concerning.
But people really want help around the the rage.
So that's why I'm making this again.
It might be a little bit of a rehashing of other topics that I've talked about a lot before, but it's still tough.
4:23
It's still just hard.
What I'll talk about today is what is up with BPD rage?
Why does it feel different than normal anger?
And you know, the mechanisms behind it, why it's so intense?
4:40
Why does it feel so uncontrollable?
And then I'll talk about different strategies that you can use when your loved one with BPD is raging at you.
I'm thinking about this topic is it's really interesting because this I was thinking about the times that I've worked with people with BPD and there's just been just anger.
5:03
I mean, it's, it's like a flip, a switch that's flipped.
They could be so sweet and so scared and so sad and tender and gentle and like harmless.
And then suddenly they change into this demon.
I mean, I thought that's the thing that was the most scary with not only I've talked about my mom a lot with alcoholism, but other family members too that struggled with addiction, things like that where you'd even friends too, where you just see like a change in their eyes, right.
5:36
It's it's it's not just like someone gets pissed off or angry, but they go from this gentle soul to like white rage and that it is like daggers coming out and the kind of person that you were like, whoa, this is like a completely different person than the person was just here a moment ago, right.
5:56
That's the thing.
That's the most scary kind of seems like a demon is like coming out at them, like the exorcist.
That is the most alarming and disturbing thing about BPD.
Sometimes it's like that flip the Jekyll and Hyde moment.
I was thinking about this in my own life and trying to remember what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that.
6:17
It's always easier when I was, when I'm working with someone or I was in my therapist mode like I could, I probably like went into like a, like a hyper intellectualized place where I just kind of put myself and my needs aside and was just like, all right, I'm here.
6:36
I, I, I know this person struggles with this anger and I'll work with it.
Like, I remember one of the most confusing moments of my time working with in, in DBT in DBT clinic.
6:54
What happened was after a DBT skills group course that I've taught, you know, one, one session that I taught, I got this e-mail that was sent to me and all of my supervisors, all of my teachers, like my everyone I respect all my managers, all the, my clinical supervisors, Dr. Rosenthal.
7:20
And it was from someone who was in the group who just wrote this whole e-mail about how I'm a terrible person, how I don't care, how I'm awful, that the whole clinic is awful, just like a whole attack on my character.
7:35
And then it branched out to the whole clinic.
I was I, I remember that feeling.
I remember that was the most shocked cause like my stomach just fell.
I was like, what happened?
And it was just like really personal attacks too, right?
7:51
Like when, when the BPD rage, sometimes there's attacks that feel so personal because they actually are close enough to you that they, they know your weak spots, your vulnerabilities.
Sometimes it's called BPD empathy where they could like almost read you like a book and really go after those really sensitive points.
8:08
So that person said that I don't have empathy, that I'm cold, that, you know, there's something wrong with me.
And it was all of my deepest fears or just like really sensitive places.
I found other patients like yell at me before about other stuff, like you're, you know, you're just a student and what do you know?
8:27
You're blah, blah, how old are you, blah.
And you know, stuff that I didn't really care about.
But this was like my character, my ability to love, right?
My ability to like care and help.
And I was floored.
I was crying.
I, I called up all my supervisors.
8:42
I was like begging for their forgiveness because I was scared about what it would do to my reputation and my standing in the clinic.
And they were all calm and they were like, listen, you know, this happens with borderline personalities order.
There's this like rage.
Let's really try to figure it out.
8:59
And I found out I talked to this person and I found out it was because I had gotten up for my chair and my chair had knocked against theirs.
And I guess they were also like, it's sensitive that day having a bad day.
9:15
And they felt really slighted by me and they went into a rage and they were really, really kind and sweet.
And they, they, they did an excellent job, like recognizing their role in it and apologizing for the things that they said.
9:32
And I did the same.
I was like, Oh my God, I had no idea.
I am so sorry I hurt you like that.
Like, it was just actually a really beautiful moment when we resolved.
But I remember being like, Oh my God, like this thing that I literally didn't even notice, right?
9:49
I didn't even notice that I knocked.
I'm so clumsy, messy, ADHD kind of person anyway, So like I knock into things and I just never thought that that would lead to such like vitriol against me.
So that was like a real big lesson in it.
10:07
And when it comes to, you know, my mom, that's always been really hard when like it's see her flip, like especially when I was a kid and she was drink actively drinking.
She would just like turn and it would just like if she would just fly into a rage, her nostrils will will flare.
10:26
And I would do the same.
I would.
That was the difference between me as a therapist, me as a kid is that I would rage back.
So we would get into these exclusive fights and it just seemed like there was nothing I could do to stop it.
10:44
I mean, granted, back then I didn't have the skills to try to stop it, but it just seemed like it's like a runaway train.
And then the next day when things got better, there was a lot of attempts on both ends to kind of pretend nothing happened and go back to normal.
11:00
And so it really was this kind of like all or nothing living when it comes to this kind of rage.
So this is the kind of rage that I'm talking about.
Not just any anger.
I know that other anger and different kinds of disorders can feel different, like with anxiety could feel more like irritation or like snapping or just like get away from me.
11:23
But this is like I'm going to get, I'm going to get you.
And the reason why BPD rage, I'll say BPD rage from now on, but I also mean just like when people with the disorder get angry, when BPD of rage comes out, it really feels bigger, more explosive and more intense than other types of anger.
11:49
And there are reasons for that.
It's not just that the person's like a bad person or anything like that, but it's just it really like biologically anger in borderline personality disorder is different than other types of anger or other expressions and their experiences of it.
12:05
So I think of it like this.
It's like a cascade of emotions.
So with borderline personality disorder, you have people with BPD tend to be really easily triggered by social issues like feeling betrayed, feeling rejected, you know, disappointed.
12:28
So they're reading people a lot more negatively than other people.
And then they're like they react to it more quickly and more intensely.
So there's like they're more easily triggered.
So the onset of the anger is more easy, the quick to anger.
12:48
And then when the anger comes, they have a harder time regulating it, they have a harder time calming down.
And then after that event, they remember the negative parts more vividly than other people.
And sometimes they don't even get a little bit more stuck in their narrative of what happened.
13:07
So it comes on more easily and stronger it it when it comes, it's like it can't stop and then it really sticks around.
So This is why BPD rage feels so so to break all that down a little bit more, the triggers, how BPD rage is triggered, people with BPD, It's really interesting.
13:33
A lot of my lot of my graduate work was on this.
I was so fascinated by that because I was so fascinated by like, how can two people in a relationship see the events so differently, right?
Like for me, just getting up and teaching at the board, the other person in that room in that, in that DPT class, like saw me as being like cold, harmful, unemotional, like I really hurt her.
14:04
But I didn't see that at all.
So it was just fascinating to think about.
Like how do we understand social interactions, right?
That person couldn't read my mind in that moment, but they were making assumptions, right?
So there's a a lot of the research shows that they people with BPD read negative emotions in faces a lot quicker, a lot easier.
14:27
And even if they don't, even if they don't pick up on the negative expressions that quickly, What is really common in BPD is called hyper mentalizing.
So that means if they're watching or trying to interpret a social interaction, they'll put a lot more thoughts on it.
14:50
They'll really go in depth and put a lot of assumptions and you know, make just really think about it a lot in a really negative way.
So they'll make a lot of stories, a lot of negative stories out of what happens in social situations or relationships.
15:10
So they're like, their minds are going nuts, right?
And in particular, what really triggers rage is feeling disappointed in someone else, feeling betrayed or let down.
So I know that abandonment, like fear of abandonment, is a big deal in BPD.
15:30
They're really afraid of someone leaving them or they're afraid of someone rejecting them.
There's a lot of shame and it's really like this trigger of shame that's really intense in borderline personality disorder.
But it's it's interesting, the particular situation where they feel disappointed in someone really triggers a lot of anger in BPD.
15:52
And the research shows that people with BPD will read neutral interactions as or just like, you know, day-to-day interactions as more like betrayal, humiliation or rejection than other people do.
16:10
So they're really are reading this like shaming and humiliation into what people are, are doing.
One of my old supervisors, Claire Cassiello Robbins, she did so much cool research on anger and treating anger.
16:27
And in 2019, she wrote a paper about this really cool study showing that people who feel shame and have a hard time sitting with that emotion, like tolerating it or dealing with it, have increased anger and increased likelihood that that anger is going to lead to self-destructive behaviors like drinking or drugs or quote things that they regret later.
16:55
So it's interesting how 1 core problem could be like this feeling of shame.
And if you struggle with that feeling like you want to avoid it, you want to get rid of it, you want to deny it like it's just too overwhelming, then anger might be triggered which leads to the self-destructive behavior.
17:13
So shame like this, that social emotion of feeling rejected, that is a sensitive topic and that leads to this really easy, easily triggered anger and PPD.
The interesting thing too in the research is that neuroscience studies have shown that we know that the amygdala, the alarm system in the brain is stronger and more highly activated in borderline personality.
17:43
Sort of.
I think in general, I think all emotions are a little stronger, but BBD at BBD rage is especially like the alarm bells going off and the prefrontal cortex, the areas of the brain like in the front here that's involved in regulation, planning, thinking through, right, all those are less, less activated, less strong.
18:05
So the connection of the planning executive functioning area is weaker, right?
This if there if the thinking areas of the brain have a harder time talking to that alarm system and say, hey, hey, calm down.
All right, all right, let's, you know, let's chill out.
18:23
In particular, there's the area of the brain, the left insula.
There's actually lower cortical thickness in the left insula in borderline personality disorder, and it has a weaker functional connectivity as a weaker, I guess, connection to the amygdala.
18:45
And that poor connection is connected to anger, rumination and impulsivity, which is really interesting.
So the weaker that relationship is between the left insula and the amygdala and BPD, the more they're likely to anger ruminate and do things impulsively.
19:05
So I think that insula is really involved in regulating anger rumination and the what you do with anger.
So for, for if you don't know, anger rumination is when you, you know, you really think over and over about the things that make you angry, right?
19:24
Like, oh, I hate that person.
They did this to me.
They did that to me.
They always do this to me, right?
Like thinking about it over and over, sometimes revenge fantasizing as part of anger room nation.
I want to get them back and they got to know how much they've hurt me, blah, blah, blah, right.
19:39
So that it these are kind of manifestations of anger and how it could just bubble up, right?
And impulsivity, of course, it's like, yeah, self harm, yelling, breaking up, doing drugs, drinking, doing something they regret later, right?
19:54
All those actions, own impulsive actions are prefrontal cortex is trying to calm those down.
It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I, you know, you're angry, but like, let's stop thinking about it.
Or then maybe there's let's think about it in a different way.
Or let's not rush to drink a whole bottle of wine and then scream at them.
20:14
Let's just like go to sleep, right?
Like the thinking structures of our brain are in charge of that, but they've less control over the amygdala.
You're going to get more of that anger, rumination and impulsivity.
So.
Not only is that rage triggered easily, but again, the anger becomes so big that you they aren't able to regulate it, aren't able to calm themselves down.
20:42
They might not even be aware of how angry they get.
It's interesting learning about all of this while having a three-year old because sometimes I see that in my son where he'll just like him mostly when he's tired, which makes sense because then his executive functioning is just like in the toilet, right?
20:59
So he gets angry and angry and then and then you could be like, OK, the words that I've learned from is Rachel online is like, your anger is getting so big.
You're you have really big anger right now.
And he just won't take it.
21:14
And he's like, no, I'm not going nuts.
And it, it looks it's again, I want runaway train.
You're like, Oh my God, this is going to be the next half an hour or he's going to tantrum and I can't, you know, here we go.
So it's like this balloon that's like, and it's just like heaps growing and growing.
21:33
OK, so now you have that explosion of anger there.
But then afterwards, and also I've said this in a previous episode, when the anger gets so intense, it can really warp people's perception and thinking.
21:49
It makes them think about the things that make them angry.
So it like locks their attention on everything you did that sucked.
And you know, and it, the anger will just build on itself.
And then after that anger, you know, like when it's in the past, hopefully they'll remember that incident, that whole emotion, way more negatively than other people would.
22:17
So they have memory biases where they'll block out positive emotions or alternative explanations or maybe when they found out that they were wrong and the person wasn't like, probably after that incident.
22:37
Like, I hope that person, I hope that person thinks of me better.
But they might think of that moment as like, Kibby hurt me instead of, oh, Kibby just got up and knocked into my chair.
Right.
Like the negative interpretation, the negative story sticks.
22:55
Yeah.
Not ideal.
So this is you could think about this is like that cascade of emotions, but also this experience as a stacking process.
So they're, you know, people with BPD are more sensitive to threat, social threat, especially if they're disappointed in you, they'll anger ruminate, they'll get more impulsive.
23:15
The anger will get really big and they can't calm it down, control or control the the way they act on it.
And then the meaning of the whole situation, the negative interpretation, will stick with them a little longer.
23:31
And I want to say this before I dive into the strategies.
Whenever I talk about BPD rage or anger, lately I've gotten more of this pushback from people online and social media, especially if you're not following me on Instagram.
23:53
Doctor Kibby, DRKIBBY, that's my Instagram handle.
And whenever I post about stuff like this and say, hey, you know, this is the anger and what I'm personally, this is what you can say to someone who's angry.
I usually get some responses that are like, how dare you tell me to just deal with the anger.
24:14
Like how, how dare you tell me that it's my responsibility to manage the abuse.
You should only tell me that I'm I should walk away from this relationship.
So I want to say, I want to say now that I'm going to talk about different strategies for how to respond when someone is BPD raging at you.
24:36
I'm perfectly aware that some of these situations are abusive.
I don't care if it's your kid.
I don't care if if it's your partner who loves you to death and is a kind human.
I don't care if it's your parent.
24:52
I don't care who it is, right, If someone is violent, like physically harming you, repeatedly calling you names, putting you down, isolating you, controlling you.
Like checking your phone and monitoring you and videotaping you, accusing you of cheating.
25:10
Like I've heard all these stories and over time you feel less of yourself.
First of all, if you're in this situation, definitely reach out to me coolmind.com.
This is really where people tend to reach out and ask for my help and I'll walk you through it.
25:28
But if you feel controlled and trapped and scared for your safety could be like your 17 year old daughter to doesn't make any sense to be this scared.
It's OK to admit that you don't feel safe and you need to walk away from the situation.
25:48
Maybe you need to walk away from the relationship more complicated if it's your kid.
But it I'm not telling you that you have to just tolerate being abused.
If you feel abused, if you feel unsafe, like by all means leave.
I can't tell you what to do in every situation, right?
26:05
So I'll give you suggestions for strategies, but you know, you use them as at your own discretion.
I mean, a lot of this is whether you implement them or not.
This is up to you, right?
You might have someone who's, you know, has borderline personality disorder and, and it's really scary and you feel unsafe and yet you don't want to leave.
26:25
You want to use some strategies to calm them down to get to a safe place.
Maybe you're like, you know, I could get this person to therapy or this person's working on it.
I trust them.
Things are going to get better, right?
I, every situation is different and I'm going to tell you some strategies that can help.
26:42
But if you're like, no, no, no, I'm out, by all means, get out.
OK, So that's just like big disclaimer for if you're being abused, feel free to leave and not use any of the strategies that I'm talking about.
But I'll talk through some of the strategies that I've used as a DBT therapist when a patient is raging at me.
27:01
And here are some of the ones that are really helpful in the research.
So I like these four major steps to start when someone, when you're getting that like flush of rage, you're like, Oh my God.
You know, first of all, even though I've had a lifetime experience of being like raged at, unfortunately, it would always be upsetting.
27:28
I don't think probably my advisor Zach, and maybe a few other DBT therapists who are like really like Stone cold, Not Stone Cold, but like are really stoic.
They could be raged at and they're not upset in the moment I'm guessing.
27:47
But every time I've had a BPD patient rage at me, I felt shaky, I felt weak, I felt angry like I want to snap back and I also wanted to hide because I'm so scared.
Right?
You will emotionally react.
So I don't think there will be ever a time where you can see that rage and just be happy and calm and let it blow over you.
28:10
So it's OK that if it affects you, what you shouldn't do is invalidate them, snap back, argue back, right?
A lot of things I talked about before threaten them, right?
28:26
Well, I'm going to get, you know, if you do this, I'm going to, you'll never hear me, hear from me again, right?
Don't don't say stupid to their level, but you're certainly are not going to win anything by matching their rage exactly.
28:44
If anything, I know that it I know that it could be tempting to I've certainly been there before.
And I think there's sometimes a little bit of glorifying this feeling of we could be our worst selves at each other and still love each other, right?
29:02
There's sometimes this, this addiction to the ups and downs of the relationship, right?
We're so intense and we have such a close relationship that we fight and scream at each other.
And then when we calm down, we like get back together or we're totally fine and everything's happy, right?
29:23
There's sometimes, like sometimes, often it's very stressful, right?
You're like, don't like it.
But sometimes there's like a, a fetishizing of it, like, oh wow, we've been our ugliest selves with each other.
I would say no, I would say there are many beautiful relationships that don't bring you to your worst self.
29:44
So don't do that.
It's just it, it basically is like an addiction cycle, honestly, the dopamine of getting back together and then the like the, the pain of the withdrawal and the, you know, like it's just, it's just like this heightened.
It's addiction to like heightened intensity.
30:00
So the principles are going to be these four steps, slow things down, validate, offer limited number of choices of what to do and set a boundary around dangerous behaviour.
So this is like when you're in the explosion, right?
30:17
This is what you do.
The the one thing that I like to do is slowing the interaction down.
Like I said, BPD rage is really quick, right?
It comes on like zero to 60 right away.
And you're like, Oh my God, why?
You know what?
It's on a slow build off and it's like bam, whoa, and even just you trying to regulate the whole interaction, right.
30:43
You can't necessarily like regulate them, but you slowing it down is going to be really helpful, right.
So things that I've said, because actually it's like it's too, it's something that I just naturally did because when people talk really fast, I think I have an auditory processing problem because when people talk really fast or there's a lot going on, my ADHD or whatever, I just can't comprehend what's happening and I can't think.
31:16
I get like really disoriented.
So I have been like, you know, with my mom or with patients, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
So slow down, slow down, right?
The more you could do this kindly and compassionately, but firmly, the better.
I know it's hard, but instead of like, hey, slow down, stop it.
31:34
You know, you're just whoa, whoa, whoa, slow, slow down.
I really want to hear you, but this is going too fast.
Can we slow down So I could really understand what's happening.
I want to know why you're upset.
And I want to know how to fix it.
I, I, I can't when we're talking this quickly.
31:51
So can we just like, can we take a breath and can we can can you tell me what, what happened?
What happened that made you so upset?
What's going on?
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
OK, let's slow it down a little.
Wait, wait.
32:06
And then what happened?
When did when did this start?
Right?
So I'm like, help me understand this, right?
It's like when a movie goes too fast, you're like, whoa, let's rewind and like, you know, watch it again.
It's, it's more like you could think about, I need to clarify what's happening, right?
32:25
And I just slow it down enough so I can understand.
So that's step one.
If that doesn't work, or even when it does work, the next step you could try is validating the emotion.
So I talked about this a whole lot.
32:41
Validation is one of the key skills when it comes to loving someone with borderline personality disorder where you don't have to love them, just like dealing with someone with Portland personality disorder.
Validation again, is communicating understanding for someone else's emotional experience.
32:58
So that is, it's really, it could be as simple as a sentence that's like, I get that my text was really infuriating, right?
Like, so you could just say, I get this feeling that you're having, or it could be just in general, a principle of showing that person that you're making a commitment to understanding their feelings, understanding their world and their perspective, trying to put yourself in their shoes, especially if you don't know what's going on, if you don't know what they're feeling, you'll see the right.
33:33
So the phrases that are like my stock phrases are I get that you're feeling blah, blah, blah.
I it makes sense that you're feeling this way given what you've gone through or I hear you, you know, feeling really angry.
33:54
A trick that I've learned from a different DBT therapist that I thought was really, really nice is if the validation isn't working, of course, you could try validating different things like you try about like, I get that you're angry.
I get that what I did made you feel really disappointed, right?
34:13
They could, you could communicate that understanding of different parts of their feelings or just say in different words.
But one way to depersonalize it and kind of take a little bit of the explosiveness out of it is to validate that their emotional reaction is in response to a situation.
34:35
So what does that mean?
Instead of saying you are angry right, which is also communicating, understanding is validating.
You are pissed you are furious right?
That's you are blank right?
You are emotion.
Instead of doing that, you can try doing it makes sense that my text was so disappointing.
35:01
I totally get that me being late, it's upsetting.
Oh I see now me, me getting up, hitting my chair against yours without apologizing or even noticing must have felt so dismissive and cold, right?
35:25
A small linguistic change there, but it's almost like a passive tense.
But it's really about this Like oh situation leads to emotion, not you are anger.
That might seem like a trivial nuance and a trivial change, but people with borderline personality disorder have so much shame about their their sense of self and sometimes shame about their anger and their emotions.
35:53
That saying you are angry, they might go right into the defense of shame and be like, no, I'm not or oh, you're saying I'm a monster, blah, blah, blah.
But if you take the you out of it, if you take the person out of it and say this situation equals emotion, then it could depersonalize it a little bit, which might take out the shame.
36:16
I thought that trick was really cool.
So try that out.
OK so Step 2 is a validation and I've heard lately like what happens when validation doesn't work?
Sometimes I see that people validate too late.
36:33
Like they spend a lot of time defending and arguing at first.
No I'm not, I was being kind to you.
I didn't mean to hurt you.
What are you crazy blah blah blah.
Like sometimes I see people go go to that first, which is really natural.
You want to defend yourself.
But then when they validate later, that person is so escalated they can't even hear it.
36:53
So go to the validation right away and validate multiple times.
My supervisor used to tell me the validation like the the trick the three times validation.
Like validate validate a valid.
Yes I totally understand.
37:10
That text was so infuriating.
Of course you know anyone who gets that text would be furious.
I'm so sorry.
This must be so painful, right?
So, you know, just just try, just try different.
37:26
And if you really don't know what's going on, you could ask, right?
Like what's going on?
Like what, what are you feeling?
Although we're talking about BP rate.
So anger is the obvious one.
If you could validate the anger, but then also validate the softer emotion underneath the anger, like shame, hurt, fear in a real genuine way, that's even better, right?
37:54
I've also gotten the question about validation of, well, what do I do when the other person thinks I'm being really condescending or patronizing?
Like they're like, oh, you sound like a robot, which is true.
And it just when you try any skill or try like any nice response to like a really emotional situation, it's going to sound like awkward and weird, especially if don't usually talk like that.
38:23
That's just the name of the game, right?
It's like for the first time you do anything, it's going to be awkward.
And so it might seem weird to be like, I understand that what I did was super hurtful or I get it.
Anyone would feel that that way if they were you, right?
Like it's going to sound not genuine.
38:42
And it that's why that's why these are skills.
That's why these actually take practice.
It's not like you get it right away and it's a magic bullet and everyone's calm, right?
You might, it might be clunky and that's OK.
You could even just validate like, yeah, I know I'm sounding like a robot, but I like, I really mean it.
38:58
I'm really, I I really am getting it or I'm trying to get it, so please understand.
But the other thing you can do this is like more advanced skill.
That's kind of hard, but I saw some like amazing therapist do this.
I'll try to explain is try to match their energy a little bit while validating and bringing it down so it sounds robotic.
39:25
If someone's like you know you can, you're an asshole, you and you go.
I understand that you feel this way, right?
That mismatch of emotional expression feels weird and condescending, like you're being cold and above it all right.
But if you enter in there, yes, like, you know, get a little, get a little heated, like, you know, just you don't have to stare right at them, but like bring the energy up and then, you know, bring it a little bit down.
39:52
That kind of guides the energy down a little bit.
So one time I went to a training for mentalization based therapy.
So good.
Bateman and Phonagee Dr. Bateman and Dr. Phonagee are with the 2 developers of mentalization based therapy.
40:09
It's a kind of therapy that has developed for borderline personality disorder and it focuses on how people think about other people.
So my favorite and someone in the audience, a therapist asked like what happens when someone rages at you?
And he was like, you know, and I think this is Bateman who's more the clinician.
40:30
I think he was, he was like, you know what, well, let's try joining in on it a little bit.
Let's try like validating by being there in that emotion.
And we're like, what?
Like, are we not supposed to just yell back?
Isn't that actually what escalates the fight?
40:46
And he was like, let me just try it.
And so they role played and the therapist pretended that they were their patient.
And they're like, I hate you.
How could you?
How could you do this to me?
And Bateman went, yes, yes, how could I do that?
41:02
How could I do that to you?
And it was just it was it was more like surprising, like he almost like leaned in with in with delight, but like it was genuine.
It wasn't like mocking.
It was like, yes, I agree.
41:18
It's crazy.
Let's figure this out together.
And he just like, like took a breath after that.
Use that with caution because like, it was in a role play.
And he's the master at this like, like, like get all excited when someone's yelling at you.
41:38
But you could you could be a little bit like, yeah, I get it.
I get it.
That text must have really hurt me, you know, getting up and just smacking a chair against yours.
I get it.
Right.
So you can sound genuine, like, oh, I'm being affected by this person yelling at me.
41:55
But you know, let's rest here.
So that would be really Jiu Jitsu validation.
And the third one, the third one's interesting.
The third one is offering options for what what to do next.
42:13
I like this one because you want to all of this is kind of like trying to turn on the regulation or at least like borrowing what regulation skills are and try to like walk them through it with with them.
42:31
Like say regulating for someone, but like trying to regulate the situation.
So if you're like fully in the emotion, the more like the, the prefrontal cortex of thinking and planning is a little like not as active, a little offline, but you want to bring the planning back in, right?
42:52
The little meta awareness, a little bit of like what we do, what do we do with this, right?
So offering to two solutions could be like, OK, what do you want to do?
You want to talk now about this and try to figure out a way forward or do you want to talk later when we're more calm?
43:13
Or we could, we could talk about this right here, or we could take a walk and talk about this or hold on, should we discuss this now?
Because I'm going to put my clothes in the laundry and then we can figure it out, right?
So give this, give it like only two or three really circumscribed options for how are we going to move forward right now?
43:36
How are we going to resolve this?
What are we going to do together?
Like let's get a quick road map.
Which one not only gives them agency, right?
If they're picking choices, they're in control.
But it's not an overwhelming amount of things, right?
43:54
It's not like, well, what do you want to do?
Like they don't, they don't know they're just going to scream, right?
So it's just like, OK, we could talk now or talk later.
We take a breath or we could hash it out, right?
So just giving them some options.
And then the last one is set the boundary around dangerous behavior.
44:18
So the mistake that I see loved ones and people with BBD make all the time is really demonizing the anger, right.
Oh, I hate that I'm angry.
I, you know, it's funny.
44:37
I, as I'm, as I'm talking about this one thing that that comes up is like, I've had a long, long history of being the angry one.
And it's I've always identified as like more angry, the angry one.
In some ways it's kind of like I identify as a scapegoat because I wasn't, I was less in touch with like being anxious and being afraid, which I was for a lot.
45:00
And I was always acting.
I was always expressing my emotions like, you know, more angry.
I was getting into fights with my mom and fights with his boyfriend at the time.
And, and I realized, like, looking back, I had always thought of myself as an angry one to the point where now, even now there's some people I know who are like, oh, Kibby, you're, you're so angry or I can't deal with your anger.
45:25
Those tend to be the people who have a hard time with anger themselves.
They identify as like I never get angry or they just, they're like, Oh, I can't deal with anger even though they are angry.
They've these people that I'm thinking about, like have yelled at me or have yelled at other people and stuff like that.
45:44
But yet I'm, I'm considered the angry one, which is funny because if you then I ask other people, they're like, what?
And you're not angry, you know, so, so sometimes I don't know how to there's, I have a complicated relationship with anger because like I feel like that's more my emotion, the way I deal with like stressful things, but I also feel blamed for it.
46:10
And this is the point that I wanted to make when people are the angry one, right?
Like people with BPD or like people like me who identified as like, oh, you're, you're so angry.
That becomes like an identity that is wrapped in shame.
46:25
So I feel ashamed and I feel like that's the thing that people would find out about me and hate and leave me for.
So when people set boundaries, when you when you set boundary around your loved ones, BBD rage.
46:48
Don't try to demonize that the anger or the person, right?
Set a boundary around the behavior.
There's a difference between anger, the feeling of anger, and then the way people respond to it, the way you deal with anger or act on it, right?
47:11
There's feeling angry, and then you can take that anger and you can defend yourself or assert yourself or yell or anger, ruminate or do something that you regret later. self-destructive, right?
47:26
Drink whatever.
So it's really that other stuff is really the, the, the way people respond to anger is what the problem is, right?
Like if I just said, hey, I'm really angry, can we talk about it?
I really want to figure out a way to correct this misunderstanding.
47:43
It's going to get a very different response than, you know, someone throwing things at you, right?
Or is calling you names and stuff, right?
Maybe same emotion, but different ways of reacting to it.
So set a boundary around the way they're expressing the anger.
I know that's really tricky, but it's all how you explain it and a mistake I always see people make when they talk about I'm setting boundaries.
48:06
I've set boundaries on my husband before and he doesn't listen.
I've told him not to yell at me like that anymore.
I told them not to insult me.
I told him not to slam doors.
I've set a boundary and he won't respect it because that's not setting a boundary.
48:23
That is telling someone what not to do.
And when we're talking about borderline personality disorder, again, impulsivity is really high, right?
When they're, they're really, really angry, right?
The, the part that regulates impulsivity is a little offline.
So not doing something is really hard.
48:41
And also people don't like to be told what to do, right?
So being like, I'm setting a boundary by telling you not to yell at me.
Totally fair.
Definitely do that.
And if they respond, awesome.
But if they don't, that's the next stage of that is a really effective boundary is more about what you will do differently, not them.
49:06
Not like don't.
A boundary is not don't yell at me.
A boundary is if you yell at me, I'm going to end the conversation.
If you throw things at me, I'm going to leave the house because I'm really scared of getting hurt.
49:23
If you do a bunch of drugs and start, you know, like throwing things or getting violent or screaming at me, I'm going to take the kids and we're going to go to the neighbors because I'm, I really want to protect them, right?
Of course, you could say don't throw things at me, right?
49:41
That's totally fair to say.
But remember that what is going to be much more effective is hey, this behaviour, if this happens, I'm going to do this, not if you get angry again, I'm going to leave, right?
49:57
Like how how is someone going to never be angry again?
That's that's impossible.
It's a natural feeling.
But this is what I'm going to do to stay safe, to make sure that we are that that nothing worse is going to happen.
Don't turn this into a threat.
50:14
Don't turn it to this an ultimatum.
If you if you do this again, I'll never speak to you again.
First of all, that is threatening, right?
You're just using it was like trying to scare them into doing something, changing their behavior.
And a lot of time threats you don't follow through on, right.
50:32
So like if you throw things one more time, I'm going to never speak to you again.
Well, the one time they throw something and that you don't follow through, it's not going to work.
It's just you're going to, it's going to seem like you just are making empty threats, which is not, it's not the point.
50:50
And what you're trying to do is this dangerous behavior is harmful.
And and I'm thinking about it the the more you can make it about behavior and interaction like we do this.
If we start screaming at each other, if we start to get violent, I'm going to walk away, right.
51:10
That takes it even more out of the personal is like you are bad.
But I know a lot of situations with them doing something.
So the more you could be like when this behaviour happens, I'm going to do XYZ to stay safe and to make sure nothing worse happens.
OK, so those those four steps are a great starting point for how to respond. 1 slow the interaction, 2 validate the emotions, three offer two choices or three choices for how to move on and four, setting a boundary around dangerous behaviour.
51:44
Now when you actually talk about it, when you maybe are calmer or in a repair mode or if they're you know the fight is still happening but you are working through it in a Safeway, then some principles that you could use is from mentalization based therapy.
52:02
You can kind of breakdown like what happened right?
And you could ask mentalizing questions, asking them to tell you how they interpreted the situation, what they thought that you were thinking or feeling.
And you can talk through that.
52:20
So you can ask like, oh, when, if they say like, how do you know you didn't text me back?
How dare you?
Instead of saying no, I did I, you know, I texted you later.
You can ask about their hypermentalizing.
It could be like, OK, when I didn't text you back, what did that mean to you?
52:40
What were you thinking?
What, what were you thinking that I was thinking?
What did you what did you think that I was thinking?
The totally natural and understandable response to that is correcting them, right?
52:56
Because you know what's in your mind.
I've done this so many times.
This is it's so tempting when someone goes, especially my mom or other people like you were trying to punish me.
You were whatever and I'm I'm like, no, I wasn't like you were a cute.
53:13
You were upset because of something you think was in my head, but I'm the only one who could tell you that that's not true, right?
So, you know, like it's just so tempting to argue, you know, if you do it, you know, I get it.
53:30
I've been there.
If you can validate at that point, you would be a bastard.
You would be like the best DBT therapist ever.
So if they go, you know your chair knocked into mine and you were trying to dismiss me instead of saying no, I wasn't be like, oh, so when my chair knocked into yours, you thought that I, I was trying to dismiss you.
53:57
Of course you'd be upset.
Of course, that would be hurtful if you thought that.
I'm so sorry that made you feel that way.
You don't have to say, OK, yeah, I'm the worst.
But you could say, oh, from your perspective, this happened, which made you feel this.
54:16
That makes sense.
If you thought that, right?
You don't have to agree with them, you know, and be like, yes, I was punishing you, but you could be like, oh, OK.
I, I am so sorry that made you feel dismissed.
You can once the validation is really like settling in, you could say like, I'm sorry I made you feel that way.
54:44
That was not my intention.
You know, I will, I'll try better next time.
Like what can I do next time to, to make sure that doesn't happen, right?
Like you can clarify, you could say things kindly, right?
But only after you validate the feelings.
55:01
Because if you go, no, I didn't, you know, you're wrong.
You know, you're so crazy that they're just left with that feeling of hurt and anger and shame or whatever.
And someone just told them like, well, do you have no reason to feel that way?
But they're just, it's still in their body.
55:18
So like they're like, OK, what do I do with that?
It's like if you're hungry and someone says no, you're not hungry, it's like, well, then what do I do with this feeling in my tummy, right?
So you could validate, like, I get that you're feeling this way based on what you think happened.
What can we do to figure this out?
55:36
And you know, like, if you can't own your contribution, everyone worries that if you take accountability and admit to mistakes or apologize for something, then you are vulnerable to even more attacks, right?
55:52
To be like, oh, yeah, I did.
I did send that text in the when I was in a bad mood.
Then you would, you know, a lot of people are afraid that that would just like give them the ammo.
Actually, it's really interesting.
My friend Marcus told me this study and I have to find it, but there's one hospital that actually did an experiment where they admitted their mistakes in the in the medical procedures.
56:21
And you would expect that, you know, lawsuits and liability would go up, but actually went down when doctors were like, hey, I made this mistake, I'm sorry, let me fix it.
And actually, lawsuits went down because that's what people are looking for.
56:38
Like if you made a mistake, if you did something to hurt them, even if you didn't mean to, and you say, oh, well, yeah, I did that.
I'm sorry, that's not what I meant.
I'll do better next time.
That's what they're looking for, right?
So the more that you do that, the more their defenses will go down and the more the the less that they will have to fight to get that accountability.
56:58
So if you go on full defensive, that's just going to make them defensive and fight harder.
So if you could own the thing that you really did do to mess up, right.
Yeah, I said that.
I didn't mean to hurt you or punish you, but like, I did say that and I was in a bad mood.
57:15
I'm really sorry.
You're right.
It was condescending me, right?
You don't have to some, some people with their loved ones with BPD, they're like, it feels like they just want me to admit something that I didn't do.
57:33
Like they, they want me to admit that I abused them or admit that I said this.
But even though I don't remember and they're not going to let up until I say I did that.
Don't do that.
You don't have to lie.
You don't have to, like, apologize for something you didn't do.
57:49
I know it's tricky when different people have different memories of the situation, right?
Different people can have different realities.
So if they're like, you said this and you call me a jerk and you were punishing me and you're abusing me, and you'd be like, I don't remember any of that.
I didn't do that.
58:05
But they're not going to stop until I admit it.
So I'm just going to say, I'm sorry.
No, you could say I don't remember it that way and I didn't, I didn't mean to punish you.
I can understand why my actions make you feel that way.
And I'm really sorry for that.
And I'm here to really figure out how we can never, I can, you know, never make that mistake again.
58:28
So own your stuff, take accountability, but not for things that you don't remember or didn't do.
And you might have to be really honest with yourself about that.
So that's, that's it in a nutshell.
I know this is this is a really complex topic.
I know it's a really sensitive topic.
58:45
I probably at some point we'll talk about abuse.
If this is something you, if you feel like I want you want to learn more about abuse and like what is it and how do you respond to it?
I will just write in the comments any questions you have or requests and I will address it.
59:00
But if it's not abuse, if you're not feeling like controlled or you're not feeling afraid of your right for your life, these strategies that I mentioned will be pretty helpful.
And I think they're also helpful with people without BPD, right?
Like if you're a customer service representative or you're working with people or you know, like high intensity situations when someone's really angry, these are really great strategies.
59:25
But I think it's especially important with people with BPD within BPD rage because you are introducing the regulation strategies that are less available to them, right?
You're like slowing it down.
You're labeling the emotions.
59:42
You are figuring out how to move forward together and be collaborative on that.
You are setting boundaries around the behaviour.
You're like, like reining in the impulsivity and you're thinking through, OK, what is where was the miscommunication?
59:58
What were you thinking?
What was I thinking?
Like, let's figure that out.
And then, oh, let's, let's repair, let's apologize, right?
These are all things that ideally both parties do and you do inside yourself.
But if you're you have a loving way BPD, you're unfortunately going to have to do a lot of the regulation for the both of you in that moment, or at least like offer that, right?
1:00:20
Offer the environment that regulation is happening.
And they are free agents.
So they might say a few and not work with you at all in any of that and that that could be possible.
1:00:35
But that's when you decide to like walk away or, you know, do something else but sing grounded for you.
At least you can think about this.
You want to be the bigger person, right?
You don't want to do what I did, which is to match them exactly and then feel regret that you were exactly the kind of person that hurt you so much.
1:00:56
So I hope this was helpful.
I love hearing your comments and questions write the comments in or questions in Spotify or YouTube.
I am learning the text slowly.
1:01:11
So if I don't get if I don't respond right away, it's mostly because I'm a dumb dumb.
Not bad.
I'm ignoring you, but I love hearing from you and I want to know what is helpful, what do you want to hear and everything like that.
I have a couple of really great guests coming up on a therapist who specialize in relationships and family and stuff like that to get other perspectives in case you're sick of hearing from me.
1:01:34
But if you enjoy this, leave it by star rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify and I'll see you next week.
Thank you.
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1:01:54
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1:02:31
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1:02:50
Thank you.