Ep. 195- The Generational Divide In Families: Bridging the Gap Between Boomer Parents and Millennial/ Gen-Z Children
In this episode, Dr. Amy Todey joins Dr. Kibby to talk about the generational divide in modern families and how families can navigate difficult relationships.
Are Boomer parents all narcissists? Or are the younger generations just fragile snowflakes? In this episode, Dr. Amy Todey joins Dr. Kibby to discuss how the generational divide in family relationships is deeper (and more fragile) than most of us realize. Dr. Amy Todey is a clinical psychologist who specializes in coparenting and family relationships. In this conversation, she reveals why conflicts between parents, adult children, and grandparents often stem from misaligned values and unspoken wounds, and how understanding these differences can lead to repair, not rupture. She shares surprising insights on why modern families fracture, how labels like "narcissist" obscure the real issues, and the quiet power of boundaries rooted in love and accountability. They also discuss the risk of the rise in "cut-off" or estrangement culture.
In this eye-opening conversation, you'll discover practical frameworks for navigating emotional safety and reconciliation across generations. Dr. Todey discusses the importance of honoring your own story while holding space for others’, offering concrete strategies to set boundaries without severing connections. She explores how societal shifts are fueling family conflicts, and what you can do to foster belonging despite these tensions. Dr. Kibby and Dr. Todey explore how to recognize when to cut off or lean in, the role of forgiveness in healing familial wounds, and the common pitfalls that keep families stuck in cycles of estrangement.
Whether you're navigating the challenges of aging parents, estranged siblings, or strained grandparent relationships, you'll leave with tangible tools to foster understanding, love, and resilience in your family, no matter how complex or imperfect.
Resources:
Need help dealing with a difficult family member? Dr. Kibby can help through her program KulaMind
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Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:28.43)
Welcome back, little helpers. I'm so excited today to talk to Dr. Amy Toddy. Is that right? Amy Toddy? So excited. Mostly because I mean, follow you on Instagram. We're connected through our friend Chandler. And I love seeing psychologists talk about these family dynamics. So I wanted to ask you and dive into like what is going on with families? I mean, these this families in general.
Dr. Amy Todey (00:34.504)
I yes, Amy Toddy, I'm excited to be here.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:58.444)
are having a rough time and maybe this is just our biased view of seeing families that are having a rough time, but there seems to be a really big disconnect between the different generations. So that's what I I can't wait to talk to you about that. But first, tell me who you are. Tell us who you are and how'd you get to do all this stuff?
Dr. Amy Todey (01:09.957)
Yes.
Dr. Amy Todey (01:18.482)
Yeah, so my name is Dr. Amy Toddy and I am a psychologist. I have a private practice based in Atlanta and Boston. I spend most of my year in Atlanta. and then I come to Massachusetts in the summer to practice and have a practice there. I work I've spent my career working with families across the lifespan. So I've done a lot in pediatrics. I used to be at Boston Children's Hospital in development actually. But I've done a lot of high of high conflict divorce work. But the the the family and I don't
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:45.91)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (01:48.398)
mean family in any idealized version of family, but just the messy, everyday, real, imperfect family. That is really the heart and soul of what I what I do. And I'm just gonna like, sorry, I'm gonna I feel like I'm looking down on the camera. I'm gonna expand. Is that better? yeah so the the family is the heart and soul of what I do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:09.846)
I have to say that like you.
Dr. Amy Todey (02:15.103)
And so I've been working a lot with parents and just navigating high conflicts. I work a lot as well with
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:18.614)
Well.
Dr. Amy Todey (02:24.165)
Intergenerational relationships, so adult children and their parents. And that is where I've seen a lot of the conflict that you're talking about arise, is just these generational differences and how we're raising kids and values differences. The world has changed so much with techn the technological age as well. And so generations of well-meaning people are
they're missing each other, right? And so I have spent a lot of my Instagram is really dedicated to how do we start to understand each other across generations? How do we preserve the family? How do we understand that belonging is really the heart and soul of what makes people human? and importantly, how do we structure repair? Because all families are gonna be imperfect. All families are gonna have times when they don't see eye to eye, maybe somebody hurts someone else or someone feels invalidated or someone I mean I
I know grandparents a lot, they end up feeling lonely or pushed out, and adult children feel not respected or not heard because they're trying to do things a little bit differently. And those differences, generational differences, lead to conflicts that lead to sometimes people becoming estranged for not just days, weeks, months, but years, right? Because of the divide that happens. And so, how do we come back to each other and repair, recover from those moments, those?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:50.447)
Mm, yeah. Where where are you seeing the most unhappiness, the most disconnect? I mean, I I'm I'm seeing it a lot in like adult kids who are like twenties and thirties and they're I think boomer parents at at this point. Like but you're also talking about grandparent relationships. So where do you see the most like tension?
Dr. Amy Todey (04:12.967)
Well, to your point, I think it is happening between boomer parents and adult children. I think it's happening between Jen Jones, which those are sort of young a little bit younger than the boomers, right? And they're adult Jen Jones, I know, I didn't even know this was a thing, but one of my Instagram followers or some of the Instagram followers have been talking about like, hey, I'm Jen Jones, so I had to chat GPT it. I know. So I mean they're a little bit younger than the the boomers, right? But th th those are the people because
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:25.485)
Wait one.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:35.086)
Wait, what is that?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:40.686)
Is there a generation X? I feel like there was an X. I know.
Dr. Amy Todey (04:43.097)
Gen X would be so I'm gonna have to like look it up to tell you exactly. I'm actually not a generations expert, but I've talked about it because I do think it's what I think, no matter what we call the generations, I think people aren't alone in experiencing these things. It's very it's it's definitely a cultural shift. There's a trend around it. So much of the responsiveness and the traction I've gotten from Instagram is like, my gosh.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:52.268)
Yeah, we should.
Dr. Amy Todey (05:13.142)
I thought I was the only one I feel seen for the first time ever. And I think it's just because
Where our for whatever reason, where the modern family is, where our culture is today, is leading to these experiences of people feeling shut out, of people feeling unheard on the other side, and then families really fracturing and breaking apart. So to answer your question, I see it honestly across the lifespan. I work in high conflict divorce, so I see a lot of estranged children, I mean, under the age of 16, who aren't don't have relationship with their parents and have been sort of empowered to say,
Listen, this person hurt me. I'm uncomfortable around them. I don't want a relationship with them. And then there's parents on the other side that are supporting those rifts, which, you know, we can talk about a lot of nuance there. But you know, to your point, it's starting from childhood all the way through up, all the way up through the boomers, which are sort of the older generation of parents, parents parenting adult children now. I'm seeing it. It's it's a definite trend.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:00.771)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:16.59)
Mm, yeah, yeah. So sad. I mean, I'm hearing a lot of like boomer generation or like older generations saying these younger generations are so sensitive, right? The snowflakes. and then the younger generations are looking at the older generations and saying they are narcissists. Like I've heard I've had questions of of people asking me, like, why are so many parents narcissists?
Dr. Amy Todey (06:37.459)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:44.802)
Do you see that too? Like what's going on there? What's what's happening?
Dr. Amy Todey (06:47.527)
So I definitely hear that and see that from people and and you know, the thing about
We could we could have a whole podcast on this, Kibby, right? The thing about using labels for people is that it immediately places all of the need for accountability on somebody else. And so people use those labels to create this psychological d distance where they're like, I'm, you know, my my mom is a narcissist or my co-parents a narcissist or whatever, so I just don't have to deal with them. And really what we know, and and you and I already had a conversation about this, it's a
very small percentage of people who actually meet criteria for that diagnosis. So I can see those kinds of personality traits as I know you can on a spectrum, right? Like we may all have a bit of internalized narcissism. It's probably why we take pictures of our kids and plaster it all over Instagram these days, right? But that doesn't mean that a person is a narcissist. And I generally, even if that is an appropriate term, as a psychologist, like I just don't see human beings that way, right? We're more than a label, we're more than a diagnosis, we're more than our worst
Moment. And so I think discounting a person, even if it's a mental health issue that you're dealing with, is a really good way for someone to say, I don't want to do the hard work of being in a relationship and making this repair because it's uncomfortable and it's hard. And yes, someone might hurt you over and over again because guess what? We're human, and that's what humans do, you know. so I do see that. I I also, you know, there's just these differences in values, and without talking about the labels or the difference.
Generations, older generations, they often came from a world where love was shown through sacrifice, through providing, through staying, their presence, through enduring, keeping private matters private, not burdening other people with their feelings. Whereas younger generations are asking for love to include things like emotional attunement and accountability and repair and boundaries and mental health awareness, and all of those things are amazing, right? And I feel
Dr. Amy Todey (08:48.813)
Like we've overcorrected, you know, like we also still that there is value in boomer generations that said, you know what, I get that you're bored, but go outside and find something to do, or or if you come in, I'll put you to work. So if you if you don't want to work, go outside and play, right? Or just they could tolerate distress. Like my child doesn't want to go to school. Well, it's school and they're going, right? Today, what we see a lot a lot with parents is that they're confusing their child's discomfort.
With danger or some or responding to the discomfort, not with like, hey, you gotta suck it up and cope with this, right? But they're going straight for the emotion, which is good, but without that counterbalance of saying we need to figure out how to tolerate this because life is hard, you know? And so I think those values clashes are really where I see the most friction between generations.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:21.23)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:45.039)
Do you have an idea? I mean, there I was talking to my mom about this, and w we deal with the same kind of issues. I was talking to mom about this conversation, and she was like, Yeah, but every generation has a different parenting. Like, you know, I felt this way with my parents. Do you think that that's true? Do you think that like every generation of parenting is just gonna be different and we're always gonna be like, my mom sucks and I'm gonna be different, and then it's just not the same? Or do you think
that there's something going on about the about now.
Dr. Amy Todey (10:15.694)
Well
I think there's something going on about now. I think older generations had those reflections of their parents. I don't I mean, I think they had insight around it. I don't think they rejected their parents the way current generations do. And that rejection might be complete estrangement, or it might be sort of a rejection that is like not including parents and things, setting these really rigid boundaries. So when I say rejection, I I know there's that most families ha aren't estranged, right? I mean some families.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:31.533)
Hm.
Dr. Amy Todey (10:48.437)
Families are, but most families aren't. I do think cut-off culture, though, is a thing. I think that the differences before people would say, my parents did it this way, and I didn't like that they did it this way. So I'm gonna correct with my kids and we're gonna do it a little bit differently. Whereas now we're kind of like, My parents did that, did it this way, they abused me, they no longer are valid in my life as a human and have no value to me. And so bye-bye, you know. And that's that is where I really think we have to, as a cultural.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:13.046)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (11:18.357)
and as a society really think critically because you know
I'm scared. Like, I don't, I'm not a perfect person. Kibby, you're not a perfect person. We're raising kids right now. I mean, what am I doing to traumatize my children that someday they're going to say, you know what, mom, you just didn't hear me when I told you I was upset about this and you know, now I'm I've, you know, I've been traumatized. So I'm not trying to be callous either. I I do want to acknowledge like some people have really been through abusive, horrible situations, right? And so I'm not trying to be flip about this in any way.
but even in those situations, right, what we teach
Abuse victims is not that they're a victim their whole life, it's that they're a survivor. And there's a way that they can recover from the history and grow and develop coping skills, but also assertiveness and communication skills that help them move forward in relationships with the very people who have hurt them, right? And so, no matter what you've been through, I'm not trying to erase pain or saying that doesn't matter. Of course it matters. my gosh, we have to think about how people are treated. You know, if growing up with a narcissistic mom death.
That's like how you mentioned, that's really hard. There's nothing easy about that, right? The question is, can someone hurt you and can you still also love them at the same time? Can can you have a relationship with someone and set boundaries with them, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:41.923)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:47.822)
Yeah, really, really good points. I'm I'm gonna go from the kids per adult kids perspective and then I'll actually jump to the parents' perspective. Adult kids perspective, how do we know when it's okay to actually cut off? Like let's say, let's say I'm I'm thinking about like, yeah, like every time talking to your mom or dad.
they undermine you. They say things that hurt your feelings, they maybe in the past have used corporal punishment like.
And yet at the same time, you know, knowing that, you know, like I want to have a relationship with that, I don't want to cut them off. Like how do how do you know how when it's okay to cut off a parent or another family?
Dr. Amy Todey (13:36.795)
I think this is where I do take a little bit more of a a radical position, right? And and I wanna change what you're asking just a little bit because this I'm not saying what I'm saying from a place of judgment, right? It's not about like whether something's okay or not okay. I mean, honestly, people should they're gonna live their lives the way they see fit. So it's not a it's not from a place of judgment, but it's more a question, at what cost?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:50.083)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (14:04.602)
Right, at what cost are you cutting these people off? Because when we reduce people to their worst moments and we say, These moments are so bad.
That we cannot see your human goodness anymore. You have no value or business in my life anymore, right? We're not seeing the nuance, right? We're not acknowledging humanity. We're basically saying things are very black and white. Once you cross this line, you're out of here, right? It's just not a position that I am inclined to have families take. And I can tell you a story about this, okay?
To show you that, I mean, there's a lot of stories we can take through history too. Like we people sometimes come to me in high conflict divorce, and they're like, our family is broken, it's way beyond repair, we can't do anything about this, this person's dead, so blah, blah. And I'm like, y'all, we had the Holocaust in our world. And we've moved on, right? Now, we don't move on and say that didn't happen, that pain doesn't matter, it's fine, it's okay. It's nothing like that, right?
But we have largely moved culturally toward forgiveness, toward using that as a way to make to to learn, to to learn a lesson and grow. And it isn't perfect. Anti-Semitism still exists, there's still problems, right? But
I mean, we didn't take Germany and say, we're done with you as a country, right? We didn't do that. And you know, just an another more personal anecdote, my aunt and uncle were divorced a long time ago, and they had three kids together, and my aunt got remarried, and she went out of town on her honeymoon, flew with her new husband. And when while she was gone, there was a red flag warning.
Dr. Amy Todey (15:55.397)
you know, in the o in the ocean off the California coast, and they weren't, you know, no one was supposed to go on a boat. My uncle, her ex-husband, took their three children out on a boat into the ocean. The boat capsized, okay? And they swam for shore, and only two of the kids made it. One of the kids didn't. It's the most devastating, devastating tragedy that anyone could ever any parent could ever imagine. You know?
But I tell this story to tell you, like my aunt and unc my aunt and uncle, that even though they're divorced and this horrible tragedy happens, they talk to each other. They co parent. My aunt called me and was like, hey, I know this is a little unconventional. This is when I got married in 2013. She was like, Can I bring my, can I bring my my ex husband to the wedding? And I'm like, Of course you can, right? So the reason I tell that story is to show that like,
Forgiveness often resides within our own soul, right? And whether we choose to forgive someone has a lot more to do with what's going on inside of us than it has to do with what they did, right? Sometimes we have to grieve the person, the relationship with a person that we wanted it to be, how we wanted it to be. We have to grieve that in order to accept what is, accept that other people have limitations. They make terrible mistakes in life, terrible mistakes.
Right, we really have to ask ourselves a question: does that mean that they get excommunicated? They no longer belong, they're no longer have a seat at our Thanksgiving table. You know, and I just in a career where I've spent my life working in high conflict divorce, intergender creational connection, I've seen some of the worst tragedies families have been through. I've not met that family.
I've never I've never met a family where I was like, you know what, cutoff is the right choice. I don't see another path forward. I I have too much hope in humanity to advocate for something like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:56.917)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes that makes so much sense. I'm still staying with the kids the kids' perspective. So I'm gonna play devil's advocate. But I've I've also experienced this where even just any interaction with my mom at the time, when now things are better, but which might be to your point, but there are some people who when they interact with their mom or dad or sibling or whatever, it
always makes them feel terrible. It always like there's a there's a criticism and it and it crumbles their self-esteem and they fight so hard to heal and one word from their mom about their weight and it's just like I I feel like shit about myself again, right? So what do you do when it's interesting when you were talking about those different examples, a lot of it is like you know, like a defined trauma, tragedy, right?
What happens if there's a dynamic that just makes you go nuts every time you talk to your mom? Like what do you do?
Dr. Amy Todey (19:04.402)
Yeah, no, I think that's a great point because I did give you examples of things that had pretty discrete point in time when something happened, you know? so I I the way that I'm gonna respond to that question is by saying, like, when I'm saying
I don't, I'm not a person that advocates for cutting people off. It doesn't mean that I don't advocate for setting boundaries, right? So boundaries are important. I think people misunderstand them. I think they use them a lot to cut people off or to build walls between relationships. I really think boundaries, the purpose of boundaries is to protect and preserve the relationship, right? So it is important that we acknowledge how we feel and what we we can handle in a certain situation.
Situation. And if someone's behavior is hostile, abusive, inappropriate, you know, just any any of those things in that category, I think it is okay for us to say, I'm not willing to engage with you in this way, right? When you behave like this, it hurts me. I get defensive. I behave in ways that I'm not proud of. I'm not gonna stay around right now if this is gonna be the way that you engage.
With me, but we can always talk about this again when we're both calmer, right? That's a way to kind of say, listen, I'm not saying not now, not ever. I'm saying not now, right? We're not gonna do this right now. And so the in the examples you're giving, you're talking about people who are constantly critical, hostile, demeaning, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:32.417)
Feminine.
Dr. Amy Todey (20:47.6)
When those behaviors occur, we have to respond to them, but what other people do isn't about you. Right? So the way your mom treats you really doesn't have much to do with you. That has to do with
your mom and what she's struggling with and her old wounds, maybe going back to her childhood. That's not saying you shouldn't be accountable if you do something to hurt her. That's not what I mean. But we always have a choice, right? You can demean me and insult me right now. And I could choose to get take that in and get really hurt by it and map that on to like all these old worn wounds and insecurities. Or I can choose to take a deep breath and say, wow, what Kibby's saying to me really isn't about me. And I wonder what's going on for Ki
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:16.598)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (21:32.761)
Hippie, right? What's where is she coming from? What pain? People when they can do well, they do. People are good inside, right? So like when they can do well, they'll do it. Kids do that and adults do that. When when people don't feel good about themselves or about, you know
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:33.602)
Mm, yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (21:51.663)
what's happening, that's when we see behavior start to unravel and decompensate. And so I think the the problem, right, is that boundaries are understood in a way to like control someone else's behavior and externalize something and say, you stop doing this. Well, the problem with that is we cannot control anybody else. We can only control ourself. So a boundary is really about how do we step back when we need to step back while still maintaining
Maintaining emotional openness for other people being human, right? And that might not mean that you have intimate relationships with your family with every family member where you confide in them. Because maybe that other person can't make a repair or create a safe enough place for you to be able to talk about the stuff that's really vulnerable or intimate, right? I have people in my family like that. I'm sure you do as well, right? But it also doesn't mean that.
We fully reject somebody, push them away and get them out of our life, right? Because there's so much loss in that that has nothing to do with the conflict, if that makes sense.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:01.134)
Yeah, that totally makes sense. I love I love that concept of boundaries. And there is so much of like boundary means you don't do this, say this to me. Otherwise I'm never gonna speak to you again. I'm like, that's yeah, that is a boundary, but so you know, it is focusing on controlling the other person. When you are talking though, there this is actually something that I still struggle to understand what the bounds are. When people say abuse.
When people say safe and unsafe, right? Like we're seeing this online and I'm going nuts with it, where it's like unsafe person and it's just like anybody, right? It's just like anyone who's like defending themselves or something. But how from a from the kids' standpoint, how do we understand abuse actually in between? Like how do the parents and the kids understand abuse? Because let's say, for example, the weight the weight
Dr. Amy Todey (23:36.014)
I know. I know.
Dr. Amy Todey (23:56.739)
You're talking about adult children, just so I know. You're talking about adult children.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:59.777)
Yeah, I'm talking about adult children, but I'm also talking about adult children who are processing like childhood. Like, you know, my mom or dad has always made me feel XYZ, or they've been abusive to me, or and therefore I don't want to talk to you, or whatever. I'm seeing actually a hard thing of like cutting off but still asking for money and other kind of material support from parents, and that's that's tricky. That's the whole thing. But
Dr. Amy Todey (24:23.026)
Yeah yeah. Yeah that's
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:28.758)
For the definition of abuse and how abuse or tra trauma is understood, I I wonder what you think is like how you understand abuse and trauma. Just because, for example, the weight thing is the f is a funny example because my mom and all my Chinese family will comment on weight. For us, growing up in America, that's like
really mean, right? That's like a to to to say to your daughter, like, you look fat. Like we would say that that might be emotionally abusive, whereas other cultures would see that as like, I'm being a caring mom because like the intent is different. I'm being a caring mom, just pointing out their health, right? So what do you do when you have these older generations that, you know, will say like suck it up, you're okay, you're gaining weight, or you know, all these different things that they're just doing out of good intent, but it is
really damaging for the kids' self esteem or it's hurt them over the years and they go, I feel like that was abusive. How do you
Dr. Amy Todey (25:35.153)
Yeah, I mean it's a that's a really hard one. abuse in children is easier to define because in a way it's legally defined, right? And there's a clear power differential.
And what I tell families is like that is the line that I go by when I'm practicing, especially in high-conflict divorce. But abuse often involves power control, intimidation, humiliation, coercion, things like that. repeated boundary violations can be abusive behavior. So I I think when I'm sitting with a client and this is their story, right?
I am inclined to acknowledge their story as their truth and as the truth for them of what they experienced, right? If you listen to people when they're telling these stories, often a child will say exactly that, right? That I I wasn't heard. my parents would gaslight me, my parents would call me names, they would yell at me when I needed them to be there, they weren't, right? And it
On the other side of that coin, a parent is saying, I was working three jobs to take care of you. I always had food on the table. I loved you the best way that I knew how. I made all these sacrifices for you, right? And that story also is also an authentic truth, right? And so I think that people get to
Tell their own story. Right? We don't we actually don't get to tell our kids' story. We're writing it every single day, but we don't get to tell it. People get to tell their own story and they get to be the experts on their story. The question is, are they able to hold and honor their story at the same time that they also hold and honor that somebody else also has a story? And that empathy and the ability to take perspective, that is really what's lost.
Dr. Amy Todey (27:35.2)
I think in our culture today. I mean, I I'd love to hear you talk about because you took you referenced your mom a few times, right? It sounds like you have a pretty nuanced understanding of like maybe something your mom did that hurts you, but understanding it also through a cultural lens or understanding it through the lens of what she was trying to do with the way that she handled things, right? Is might be different.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:37.016)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:56.525)
I mean I mean it's so tricky because there have been times that are healing when I go, Why why is my inner dialogue so self like doubting, self you know, so crit so critical? And then like even as a psychologist who's had like years of therapies, years of training, I'm still like, Why am I like this? And then I hear my mom say, You're not doing that well enough and I'm like, like sometimes it's healing to
Dr. Amy Todey (28:22.363)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:25.364)
externalize it and do the blame game and be like, wait, you are the one who made me this way. And then at the same time I also know where she's coming from and I you know see the humanity in her. the tricky part is when I do that, then then I'm su I'm at danger of flipping to the other side of being like, okay, I feel so bad and I'll let her in and I'll suck it up when it hurts my feelings, right? So
Dr. Amy Todey (28:53.356)
You're like going from one end to the other, right? Like it's kind of like an either or either you're like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:56.461)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (28:59.066)
This is not okay, you know, this was abusive, whatever, or you flip to the other side where you're like, I feel so bad for my mom and I really right. But what about them? What about what about the the middle? What about like I have my story and I had this teenager tell me this one time. She said, My parents put so much academic pressure on me, so much academic pressure. Like I'll have mental health issues for the rest of my life. I I I mean, I just I I need
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:00.715)
Okay, mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:05.346)
Right. Let them in, suck it up, yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (29:26.992)
Therapy, I need medication, I need all of these things, right? And then in the same breath, she was like, but I'm so grateful that they did it because I went to an Ivy League school and I'm published before the age of 21, and like I can have any job I want. Right? I mean, those are two truths that came out of the same parents in that same child. And there's a maturity in being able to say
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:42.168)
Mm.
Dr. Amy Todey (29:52.797)
Gosh, that hurt me and it also motivated me. Right. This story has pain in it and it's also beautiful. And my my mom was trying and she loved me. And there are ways that she fell short and all and actually fall short every single day. Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:56.972)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:12.078)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Dr. Amy Todey (30:13.842)
So it's like a choice, in my opinion. I mean, we could I can talk to you about my own mother, but I'm afraid to do it because if I start, I might not stop, and that'll just be the what this becomes, right? But you know, there is there are generational differences, there's mental health issues. I mean, much in the same way you're saying, my my mom has crossed boundaries with me and my kids that honestly are like inconceivable, like not okay, right? I
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:23.566)
Please do.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:38.433)
Mm.
Dr. Amy Todey (30:42.49)
choose to hold that and set boundaries on that and love her because she's a human who deserves my love. She gave me life. She brought me into this world. Like there is no one actually in the world that will do things for me, including like my husband or my dad or my best friend that my mom is the only person in the world that will do certain things for me. The only person in the world. She's also probably the person who's hurt me more than anyone else in the world. And those two things are true at the same time. Right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:48.078)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:05.603)
No.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:09.208)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Holding the dialectic of like good and bad. Good and can we hold the nuance of that? As you were saying that, when you're dealing with kids, and I know they talked about grandparents, what what do we do? Like let's like what do grandparents if from the the adult kids side, what do our grandparents have a right to when it comes to our kids?
Like let's say they're crossing our boundaries, they're pissing us off, they're like, you know, times that I felt like, you know, that I'm not my best self when, you know, and certain family members are around. do they get a right to our kids? Or does that mean the cutoff or boundaries are necessary? What does that look like?
Dr. Amy Todey (31:57.479)
Yeah, I mean I don't when we're when it's when when it comes to children
Okay. I don't think about things in terms of what adults have rights to. Because honestly, when we're talking about children, we have to make the decision to do what's best for our children, right? And and if the adults don't get their needs met, it's kind of like you have a baby and you come to come home from the hospital with a newborn and the baby won't stop crying. You're like, I have a right to sleep. Well, good luck with that, bro. Like you are not gonna be sleeping for six months, you know? So our needs and our
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:07.478)
Mm.
Dr. Amy Todey (32:33.108)
self-care, I mean, goes out the window when it comes to kids and that's forever, right? And so I'm not w the place I'm coming from is not like grandparents, we feel so bad for them. They have a right to this and they're not getting it. It is painful for them. But that's not the why. The why is that there's a loss, right? If we if
So many losses. If we cut grandparents off completely, we cut children off from their roots. And what we know about children is that children who are rooted, who they know, they know they come from people and they know who their people are, their self-esteem and their resiliency and their ability to be successful and face the world goes way up, right? And
Dr. Kibby McMahon (32:59.33)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (33:17.07)
I will also, I mean, I can I can illustrate this also with a little bit of anecdote. The other thing that I think we lose is teaching kids that when somebody is hard to deal with, we can just get them out of our life. Because we can't just get them out of our life. That's not the way this works. Have you ever had a boss before? Have you ever had, I mean, you know, your your PhD, right? Like, do you ever have supervisor that you didn't get along with? I mean, there are things that I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:41.678)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (33:44.231)
There is a political structure in this country that many people react to right now. We cannot just get these people out of our life. We have to tolerate it, right? So there's a silver lining in having some conflict and distress when we're children, because it teaches us how to learn and grow. And when a parent can provide a little bit of buffer or a framework for a child and how to understand what's happening and what's going on, like really validate, like, hey, it wasn't right that grandma said that to you. Something that's really common in boomer generations that might be like,
stop being stupid, right? That's a word that younger generations are like, like we can't use those language with our kids. And I am I'm one of them, right? I don't use I don't use language like that with my kids, right? And I don't think it's okay that my parents do. But also, like, I am able to provide a buffer and say, you know, grandma thinks about things differently than we do, right? And grandma should never have said that to you. And at the same time, we're still gonna respect grandma because she's grandma and she loves you. She would do anything for you, right? That's hard though. So you
Trying to validate the emotion. So that's one of the silver lining things. I will tell you, right? Like, my grandmother, she came from this strict English background, okay? She would intentionally sit at the dinner table, and as soon as we were little kids, and as soon as we like, I don't know, put her elbow on the table, talked when we weren't supposed to, she would go at us like crazy. I mean, she was mean, awful. One time she, my cousin, she was so mad at him, she took a broom out of the broom closet and literally
Chased him around the house like this. She was gonna smack him over the head with the broom. Like this is a story that happened. Okay. But she also had the most amazing jewelry collection I've ever seen. Like I'm in her house right now. It's in the attic over there. All these dresser drawers, like a dresser of red costume jewelry, all the drawers completely full. She put them in these like egg cartons, you know? And they were like all organized: red, green, yellow, blue, gold, like multicolored, like they're still in there, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:36.92)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (35:43.259)
Her love of fashion and like celebrating and beauty and like all that, that is internalized within me. Like I, that is part of who I am, right? So if my mom had said, listen, you chased whatever around the house with a broom and that's completely unacceptable. We can all agree that's completely unacceptable. You're out of here. Then I miss out on all of the other stuff that I learned from her and stuff that she gave me, you know? And on the
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:12.31)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (36:13.222)
Of like we can tolerate difficult people. It's we we can there's a line, there's a boundary where we say, okay, that's enough. We have to know what that line is when we're gonna take a step back, but also like someone can say something kind of gruff and mean and we can kind of be like, they must be having a bad day.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:29.578)
Mm-hmm. I I think these are clearer and maybe not, because that that goes into like more physical violence, kind of corporal punishment. where is the line where someone should say, You you you really shouldn't have access to my kids? Like I w the first thing that came up in my mind was like sexual abuse, right? 'Cause that seems like a like if th someone had a history of sex being sexually abused by their father or their mother.
Access to the kids, regardless of what they get, I would really have a hard time with that. But what do you think is like is there?
Dr. Amy Todey (37:06.874)
No, I th
So obviously there are lines that cannot be crossed, right? We have to we do have to protect our children from serious harm, right? I'm actually not a fan of protecting kids from all harm. You can probably tell that by talking to me. I do actually think it's important for kids to experience get into a little trouble they need to get themselves out of or have some distressing emotional moments that they have to cope with, right? but we can't, you know, we can't put our kids in positions where that, you know, things could result in death.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:20.225)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (37:37.921)
That are careless and callous in the part of parenting, right? And so one of those things is you brought up sexual abuse, serious physical abuse, you know, like we may all have parents who might swap their kid's hand away from something. That's not really what I'm talking about, but like leaving bruises, like railing on a kid, we can't have those situations. But Kibi, even then, I'm kind of like, okay, so is there a way that we can stabilize safety and help these kids move forward?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:51.138)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:05.32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (38:06.768)
Right. Like I
Between you and me, I may not put my kids in a car with certain family members when they're driving, right? I may not let certain family members be with my kids alone without me being around. Like I have those people in my family, right? But if I'm here and I'm watching, I'm around, right? If the harm in the the potential for harm or the safety issue is stabilized, then what are we actually cutting off? We're just saying you did that, so you're bad, so you're excommunicated forever? Or are we, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:20.354)
Mm.
Dr. Amy Todey (38:38.598)
And and what if how do we teach our kids to grow up with someone like that? I mean, how many kids in America right now are growing up with alcoholic parents or grandparents or aunts and uncles who say abusive things and lose their mind and do things that are pretty scary and traumatic, right? I would say there I mean, I don't know the percentages, but I bet it's high just because I know that alcohol abuse and addiction is high, right? And so we have to be careful. I mean, we can cut people off, but there's not gonna be very many people left.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:06.914)
Right. Right. I r I really do love the through line and what you're saying, which is something that I really believe in, is like we need to learn how to cope with hard things. I mean, that is really I think what is causing a lot of issues with mental health is like we don't know how to cope with hard things. People include are included in that, right? Like someone who like a grandma who chases you around with a broom, like
Dr. Amy Todey (39:09.138)
You know?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:34.841)
How do you cope with that and still be healthy, mental, you know, mentally healthy and resilient? Now I'm gonna shift to the adult, like the the parents or grandparents' perspective for a minute. How what it what should they do? How should they heal? It's funny because before I got into this work, I was so much more about like, you know, all parents should validate their kids and you know, it's not okay. But now that I'm seeing the perspective from
The older parents, man, some of these kids, and I when I say kids, I mean sometimes 30-year-olds, they're saying awful things to their parents, probably maybe justified, like like F you, you're abusive, you're you know, you should be locked up, you go to hell, like really horrible things. And parents are like, I first of all, I don't know what to do. This is so painful to hear, like getting like all these texts about how I'm a terrible mother.
but then I don't even know how to heal from this, right? And like as you were saying with the with the the Holocaust example, something that that popped in my mind was when I lived in Germany, they were really struggling with having to just constantly beat themselves up, right? All Germans, not all Germans, but there are a lot like, we did wrong, this is terrible, I'm a bad person.
Dr. Amy Todey (40:57.682)
yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (41:01.532)
Totally. The guilt. I've seen it too.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:03.276)
We can't even show our flag, right? So th then I'm like thinking, like, is that what parents have to do? Like, I'm an abusive person. I can't believe I did that. I'm so sorry. Like, what how do we heal here when from the perspective of the parents?
Dr. Amy Todey (41:16.134)
Yeah, no, I think that's a great I think that's a great question and an illustration that you gave. So there's a couple of things you said. One is you said maybe it's justified. I don't think that there's anything justifiable about being dis disparaging, like cursing at people, calling them names, making them you know, like that's
The responsibility for that behavior is on the person who's doing it. Like you can be mad, you can be hurt. And I think this is maybe what you were saying is like, of course, the pain is justified. Of course, we want to validate that emotion, right? There's story. That is not a license to treat people however you want to treat them, right? Like that's, I mean, I would say adult parents should set boundaries on that same behavior. I mean, if somebody is like, I don't remember exactly what you said, but like you're an abuser, you're a horrible person, fuck you, you know, all this stuff.
You can't talk to me like that. But if you want to have a conversation, happy to have a conversation with you. I am not going to talk to you when you're behaving this way. I care too much about you and too much about our relationship. Right? So you're protecting the relationship. You're not pushing that other person away. You're saying, this is just a line, you've crossed a line that I'm not okay with you crossing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:14.296)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:26.018)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (42:37.082)
Right? If you want to talk about how something I did made you feel, I will listen to that, right? So that's one piece. There's a difference too between being accountable for behavior and owning up to the fact that I totally agree with you. I am an abusive person, right? P a person and a behavior, those are completely different things. Right? If I was reduced to my worst behavior, Kibbi, like, I mean, even with especially toward the people I love the most, even my kids.
Right. mean, I was, I was, I remember this, and this is a this I'm gonna have some shame when I tell this story, honestly. I was very depressed, and I was pregnant with my third child, and I had a two-year-old at home and a four-year-old at home, and it was bedtime, so you can already imagine the scene because you're a mom, so you know how that happens, right? And I just like lost my mind. And like I took my son, I grabbed him by the arm.
I like literally flung him on the he had like this mattress on the floor because we had just moved and I like flung him on the mattress. His head went backwards like that, right? It was awful. And I'm like, I'm going in tears talking about it. I was so I like immediately I was like, my God, what have I done? And my husband was right there and he watched the whole thing. And I was so like upset and guilt ridden. I'm like, who am I? Like I'm the most horrible mother. Like, how could I have done that to him? Like, it's you know, like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:45.624)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (44:06.98)
I reverted to like a really low moment, right? And probably sometimes people say, you know, you it when you're stressed and you're parenting, you revert back to how you were parenting. So there's there's a little bit of my history in there, right? But that isn't who I am as a parent. That's not who I am. I don't I we don't hit our kids. We don't put our hands on our kids. We don't demean, disparage, call names. Like that is not our value system, right? But I made a mistake.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:24.799)
Mm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:36.408)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (44:36.932)
And I had to repair that. Like my son needs to understand that no matter how naughty he was being or whatever in that moment, like he's not responsible at all for how I treated him, you know? And so, but that's that's the thing is like if we if we're holding other people to impossible standards, like what's gonna happen when like what are we teaching our kids? And what's gonna happen to these same parents when their kids grow up and say, You didn't, okay, mom, like you actually overindulged my emotions to the point that when I told you I didn't want to go to school because I was
bullied you said okay you don't have to go so I didn't go to school so now I don't have an education so I'm pissed off at you now right we can't overcorrect we can't go from like you know putting our kids continually into the hands of an abusive person or an abusive situation to like protecting them from everything like
That's not the goal here, you know? And so, I mean, that's just what I would say. I I don't even remember your question, but like the the point in all of that is like there's humanity we have to acknowledge here. And we can hold people accountable. We we can tell our truth and say, you know what?
This is how you made me feel. And I still carry this and this is a wound. And I know you loved me and you were doing your best. I hear you saying that. I can honor your story too alongside mine. Right? That's really the place that we need to be in families in our world.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:03.902)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And from the parent side, what should they say? Because what should they say to these kids who are like, you know, you're abusive, I hate you, you know, like how could you do this to me? You treated me terribly. I I love and I hear the hey, you can't talk to me like that, right? You can't just, you know, you can't just curse at me. You can't just And then what? How how would you say that these boomer parents should
Dr. Amy Todey (46:23.067)
Right.
Dr. Amy Todey (46:31.024)
Right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:33.678)
The the question I get a lot is how do I validate those emotions and that pain without saying yes, I was a I was abusive or like they it's hard. It's hard because they're like I I I intended to like help my g you know, I I wasn't abusive. I how can I validate that? How can I
Dr. Amy Todey (46:53.746)
Because because it makes it sets people up for an impossibility. Like, of course, I don't want to feel like an abusive person. Do I think the story I just told you about my son and like whipping him onto the bed the way I did, do I think that was an abusive action? Absolutely. 150%. You can't do that. I mean, it sometimes what what makes abuse is also the repetition of it. So that's that hasn't been my son's experience. You know, the action and of itself is completely unacceptable. Nobody could condone that, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:02.69)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:10.51)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:18.422)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (47:23.92)
So that's an that's an uncomfortable setup for a grandparent from the beginning. Like you have to acknowledge you were an abusive person or I can't move on. Like I'm not sure who's gonna sign up for that, but I'm not, right? I'm sorry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:33.144)
Right. Right.
Dr. Amy Todey (47:36.365)
I am hearing that I hurt you in ways that I did not realize I was doing. I never meant to hurt you that way. And I will do things differently, right? I will, I will do what I can to shift, to make this up to you, and to show you that I hear how painful that was for you, right? That's what the that's what boomer parents or whatever need to do. They can acknowledge and be accountable for an action, even if they don't agree on the truth.
No one is gonna agree on the truth. That is a fallacy, right? Truth is constructed. And we are participants in that. But agreeing on the fact that like I have my story, that was never my intention, but I hear that that I
Dr. Kibby McMahon (48:06.092)
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (48:20.378)
I didn't do it the way I intended to, and I am so sorry that you're suffering from that. But the apology is one part. The other part is like, are you gonna keep doing that? You know what I mean? Because you kind of gotta stop now, right? If someone's saying you don't listen to me, and you're like, I'm sorry about that, but now I'm just gonna talk without listening, that's that's also not an apology. Like an apology is saying, like, I am gonna do it differently, and then doing it, but
imperfectly because you're not gonna do it perfectly and there's gonna be another time when you don't listen when someone needs you to because you're human. That's how I know that, right? But but really like taking those action steps, the accountability and then action, right? yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:04.822)
Love that. Anything else you wanna say to families? Like any any other burning thoughts or opinions or you wish people knew?
Dr. Amy Todey (49:16.218)
Yeah, I mean I think so first of all, I've loved talking to you. I feel like we could do this for hours. So anytime you want to do this again, I'm totally happy. you know, our human beings are wired for attachment and belonging.
And just about the worst thing you can do to a human being is to disconnect them from other human beings. That's why like solitary confinement is a thing. You know what I mean? Like it is a terrible punishment for someone, right? And so I think when we think about families, we have to think in we have to think about people as whole human beings, not reduced to the pain they caused us or their worst moments or whatever. And we also
Also, have to think about the goal being to preserve belonging and connection for all people, because that's the humanitarian thing to do. That's what we all actually want, you know? And so setting boundaries on behavior, yes. Trying again, yes. And in my opinion, and again, this is a maybe a bit radical, right? I
I don't think there are very many people or situations where cutoff is the actual answer. I think it's about holding love and boundaries.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:34.863)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Todey (50:38.788)
together. So of course we can push to an extreme and we can find, you know, I'm not saying never, never should you, you know, there's certain people and certain s levels of abuse or whatever that you we we can't we can't tolerate, right? But I've not met that family, right, in my career. And I deal with the families in the most amount of pain, right? So that's the thing that I would say about, you know, to answer your question.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:39.587)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:03.233)
I love Amy, first of all, I think we should ha definitely have so many more conversations. I don't wanna hear about like high conflict divorce and and all that. But as we wrap up, how can people find you? I'm gonna put all these kind of, you know, links to find you in in the show notes, but what are you doing now? How can people find you? What what do you wanna tell people about what you're up to?
Dr. Amy Todey (51:12.398)
That right. Yeah.
Dr. Amy Todey (51:18.758)
Great.
Dr. Amy Todey (51:27.75)
Great. Yeah. No, I would love for people to find me. So people can follow me on Instagram. It's at Dr. Amy Toddy. And you can put it, you can write it in there so everyone knows how to spell. they also can read I have a, you know, have a really good website where if people are curious about what I'm doing or they have basic questions, or even if they want to see if I'm a good fit for therapy, I'm licensed in most, not California, but most US states, because I have an interjurisdictional license to practice. And so I am I'm happy to see people in my practice.
As well. And yeah, I mean, my plan is to grow in this way. This is a central part of my professional identity and how I give back to the world. There are so many families are suffering. People can't afford therapists. Like, you know, I am not really doing what I'm doing to become this isn't a self-focused thing. It is really the way that I'm trying to give back. And so fall, I'm gonna develop more social media channels. I'm hoping I'll publish some things moving forward. so yeah, I definitely connect, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:28.559)
Thank you so much. This was so good. And it's like, I just feel like everything you said, I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. and it's so tricky because there's so much pain we're dealing with. and then to you know handle that with like compassion and grace and empathy is really, really hard. So I appreciate your perspective. Thank you. Yeah, well, you're I'm gonna have you come on again if you're willing. So
Dr. Amy Todey (52:29.918)
Thank you.
Dr. Amy Todey (52:36.932)
I do.
Dr. Amy Todey (52:48.976)
Yes, I've appreciated the opportunity of being invited on.
Perfect. Great. All right. Thank you, Debbie. Bye.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:56.793)
Thank you so much. And little helpers. We'll see you next week.