Ep. 204 - Why It’s So Hard to Trust Someone After Addiction
Rebuilding trust after addiction can be just as complicated as recovery itself. In this episode, Dr. Kibby explores why sobriety doesn’t automatically repair broken trust and why loved ones may still feel anxious, guarded, or unsure long after things begin to improve. She breaks down how trust is rebuilt through honesty, consistency, and small actions over time, while sharing practical ways families can move forward without falling into cycles of monitoring or control.
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Broken trust is really hard when it makes you doubt your own perception, when it makes you look back on your own reality and go shit like what did happen when I was at the store and he said that he was home.
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Was he really at home?
What was he doing right?
Like I thought something was weird but and I and I confronted them about it but they said nothing was wrong so I thought it was crazy.
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved.
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Ones struggling with mental health.
Hey little helpers, today I'm going to be talking about why is it so hard to trust after addiction.
The reason why I'm talking about this today is we started working with Brown University on a grant funded by the National Institute of Drug Abuse on supporting loved ones in addiction recovery.
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Loved ones of people in addiction recovery.
To be clear, and I'll put in a plug in because we are still accepting new people.
But if you love someone who has recently gotten sober or gotten treatment or taken steps to cut down on substance use, drug, drug abuse, then you can possibly get 3 months of coaching with me on how to navigate this tricky relationship.
1:32
So this is a really fantastic opportunity.
I'm going to leave the link in the show notes.
So if you have a adult child or a partner or a sibling or someone else that you care about who is cutting down on opiates, heroin, meth, crack cocaine, any kind of drug like that, and you're finding it hard.
1:57
You're finding it hard to be there and support them while also taking care of yourself.
Then please let me know.
I would love to work with you and help you and you get it for free.
And not only that, you and your loved one would get $100 in gift cards for participating in the study.
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So it's a really, really cool opportunity.
Again, the link is in the show notes.
So if you're interested, just check it out.
Anyway, the reason why I'm talking about trust today is trust is always a really interesting topic to me because sometimes in relationships, we, you know, trust really matters, right?
2:32
We say that, you know, this good relationship is built on trust, whether it's romantic, whether it's a family relationship, Trust is a big thing.
And sometimes I feel like we talked about it in this way that is so important.
But like, what is it right?
2:48
Is it just a feeling?
Is it a feeling of comfort?
Is that a feeling of lack of anxiety?
It's so important, yet we don't know what it is.
So I wanted to talk about what it is and I wanted to talk about it specifically in the case of relationships that are navigating substance use and addiction because there's a lot of broken trust when it comes to dealing with someone that you love.
3:21
With addiction, there are secrets, there are moments that have hurt you, there are lies.
Sometimes there is a lot of uncertainty.
And I think that, as I talked about in, I think my last episode, my last solo episode, when someone gets sober or gets treatment of any kind of mental illness, there is a hope that loved ones feel like a few of the problems over we're in the clear.
3:54
It was horrible and scary for a while, but now we could really get back to the type of relationship we want or I could finally relax.
And a lot of people find that hard to do.
Like people are sober, people are stable, they got help, they got treatment, they got off drugs.
4:11
They they broke their addiction.
They, they, they're doing well.
And yet you can't trust.
I know that this is not just in the addiction world.
I know that we're talking about all sorts of relationship betrayal too, right?
4:29
Like if someone cheats on you or if someone has lashed out at you or someone has hurt themselves, and then they might be in recovery or doing better, but you were still left with the wounds of that betrayal trauma, right?
And you're still finding it hard to trust.
4:47
It's hard to let your guard down.
And in the study, as I'm working with these wonderful people who love someone or close to someone who are taking steps to cut down on their drug addiction, that was a theme that came up.
5:04
It's like with the scariest moments are when their loved ones are quiet, right?
When they go away for a weekend, when they don't respond to texts, when they don't share what they're feeling or what they did or what's going on, right.
5:24
There's this distance or silence and there's this withdrawal and there's this like, what's going on here?
Like I want to relax because I know that they are working hard on their addiction or mental health, but I'm still scared.
I still feel like we're in it.
5:41
So trust is a big thing.
So today I'm going to be talking about why trust is broken in the context of addiction, why getting sober and recovery doesn't immediately fix it, what actually rebuilds trust and what you can do if you love someone who is recovering from addiction.
6:04
And so those are the things I'm going to be talking about today.
So why addiction destroys trust?
Really complicated question.
I think there there's just an element of unpredictability right there when we talk about trust.
6:22
Let me just start there.
When I talk about trust, a lot of what we talk about here is predictability.
What can you predict that this person is going to do?
If they say they're going to come home at 6:00 PM?
Can you trust that they're going to come?
6:40
Like, do you operate on the assumption that they will, right?
What is the probability that they will show up at 6:00?
If someone says that they're sober, can you trust?
Meaning can you feel like there's a high probability that this person is not going to use drugs, right?
7:03
So I think of trust as how well do you feel like you could predict someone's behavior, right?
You could trust someone to do something bad, right?
Like you could trust like, oh, if Billy gets in a football game with someone he is going to, he is going to tackle someone so hard, It's going to be right that you could trust that someone is going to do something bad.
7:27
So it's not always trust is not always like, are they going to be a good person or are they going to be considerate or anything like that?
It doesn't.
It's not necessarily a quality of the person I see trust as do you know what they're going to do in the future, right?
7:45
Because that's so important to survival, right?
Like to know what the people around you are going to do is really, really helpful, right?
To know how to plan, to know who to turn to for what resource, right?
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Like if you call 911, you can trust that a police and lot of policemen or emergency will come to your door in a matter of minutes, right?
And if you can't, that's a problem, right?
If you don't know if they're going to come in 10 minutes or two days, that's a lack of trust.
8:19
All right, so I'm talking about trusts.
Can you predict what this person's going to do?
And with when it comes to addiction, there's a lot of unpredictability.
Sometimes it's really a matter of like there's a, there's a trust that you could have for the person when they're using and then when they're sober, right?
8:39
Like if I'm, if you're thinking about your loved one saying are they going to come home at six?
Well, if they're out partying or they're out using, you might say no, but if there's if they're sober, you might say yes.
So sometimes you're dealing with different probabilities, like a different kind of person, a different algorithm.
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And you don't, if you don't know how high they are, if they're drunk or not, you don't know which what you're going to get right.
And there's it creates a lot of erratic behavior.
Sometimes people say I do things that are out of character, right?
9:17
That I cheated on someone or I ended up drinking or I ended up driving or I ended up doing or yelling at someone or hurting someone in a way that I wouldn't normally.
So there is just like different behavior that comes out with drugs and an addiction in general.
9:35
And as the addiction hijacks the brain.
I've been talking about this a lot in the study, but substances are really good at hijacking our reward system.
So when someone's brain is taken over by drugs or even like other kinds of addiction, like any kind of dope meat hits like video games, social media, whatever it the brain starts to learn.
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Oh, this is a really effective tool for solving something, for making me feel relief, making me get distracted from pain, right?
It's like, oh, this is a survival tool, right?
That's what the brain is meant to do.
10:17
So it will be like, I need to get more of that, get more of that, right?
So as the brain gets more addicted, it starts to 0 in on that drug even more, right?
So there, that makes that person's behavior go.
10:34
That is the most important thing.
So I feel like that is a thing for me when my mom or other people that I know have struggled with addiction and then gotten sober, I was still burned by that feeling of they would do anything for that drug.
10:52
They'd screw me over.
They lie to me, they break promises.
They tell me they'd be sober and then they'd be using again, right.
They, they are going to prioritize getting that drug and I don't trust that even though they're sober now, I don't trust that they're going to prioritize other things, right?
11:09
I don't believe it, right.
So it's, it starts to change someone's behavior the more addicted they get and it can heal and change back when they recover.
But you, you're still, you're not sure when that happens, right?
11:27
You don't know when the brain is like healed from, from the addiction.
So it's like you don't even know what you're getting.
And I think the scariest part about trust is, is one thing when you can't trust someone else, right?
If you're like when I tell them to come home at six and they don't come home at six, I just, I'm so bummed out.
11:46
But I think betrayal and and broken trust is really hard when it makes you doubt your own perception, when it makes you look back on your own reality and go shit like what did happen when I was at the store and he said that he was home.
12:11
Was he really at home?
What was he doing right?
Like I thought something was weird, but and I and I confronted them about it, but they said nothing was wrong.
So I thought it was crazy right?
Like you kind of, I don't know if you anyone of you seen the usual suspects, but the Kaiser.
12:27
So say where you look back on all the events and you look back on your life and go, whoa, what was real?
I think that's the scariest part of broken trust.
And especially when it comes to something like addiction where a lot of it is in secrecy, right?
12:43
It's done behind your back.
It's done for various reasons, like they know that, you know, if they do it in public, they might get in trouble.
They might someone stop them.
But also, I think sometimes there's this relational dynamics around that right, where that person is do like doing drugs or getting high because it gives them an escape from the relationship or from life.
13:09
It gives them their own little control over their own world, right?
Which leaves you out, right?
And that is already a betrayal of trust.
It's like you're doing this behind my back.
And then when it starts to change the way you feel like, gosh, I thought I was in a stable relationship.
13:28
I thought that I can believe them.
And they lied to me these two times.
I don't even know how many more times they lied to me.
I don't even know what else they did, right?
So it becomes this ballooning like, whoa, can I trust my own perception of what's real and what's not?
13:47
That's the creepiest feeling to me.
It's it's this feeling that that I realized that there was a, that the wizard, Wizard of Oz was just a man behind the curtain.
And I'm like, what is what is, did I, did I even have anything real with this person, right?
14:03
Did they even care about me, right?
Or was this all just a lie?
I hear that a lot when people get cheated on.
I think addiction can do the same thing.
And I don't mean any kind of addiction to like I felt I, I don't know if I talked about this story that much, but one of the one of the things that ended my, my last marriage was a a breaking of trust.
14:33
So we were already having issues with him not working, him not getting a job.
He was he was a trained as a doctor, but he was not, I don't know, like we was not getting a job and I didn't know why.
So and I would ask, hey, did you, did you apply for the licensure in the state that we're in or did you apply for this job?
14:58
And he would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did, I did.
I just haven't heard back.
I have to follow up on that.
And he would say that for years.
And then one day I was like, did you actually apply for the license in our state?
And he finally admitted, no, I didn't.
I that was a lie.
15:15
And then there were other lies that came out too.
And I was like, what is real then, right?
Like what?
How many of our conversations were lies?
And the fact that I don't know means that I can't even trust, right?
15:34
I don't, I can't even predict what you're going to do.
So when a loved one, when you feel this broken trust, you start to do things that seem nuts at the time.
But it's really a survival mechanism, right?
15:51
It's you start to check their phone, you start to pay attention, you start to listen to their tone and look at their eyes to see if they're looking you in the eyes and telling you the truth or are they looking to the side and acting shady.
You may track where they're going, right?
16:10
You start to you start to become like a policeman.
You start to become like a detective and it feels awful, right?
Like no one likes.
Well, some people might, but I don't like being in this role where I have to watch over someone.
It's infantilizing.
16:25
It's it's it's disrespectful, it feel, and it feels creepy on your part, but you're like, I need more data.
I can't just rely on this person's word, right?
I need more information to know if I can predict what they're going to do.
16:43
Are there are they here or not?
Do they apply for the job or not?
I need more than just saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
I need to stop worrying about it.
I need more data.
So those monitoring behaviors of loved ones might have been useful when they're in an active addiction, but it could become exhausting for both people, right?
17:05
And it's especially hard when they're in recovery.
So I'll talk about now why if someone gets sober or gets treatment or they're like, they made a big milestone, got a big milestone and they're like, I'm good, I'm different.
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You can trust me now.
I'm sober.
It is still really hard for you as a loved one to trust them, right?
That trust has broken in the past.
And even though they've probably worked so hard to get clean, there's more work to be done.
17:40
And that's such a bummer for everyone, right?
Because they're they, they have done the hardest thing, which is to overcome their own addiction.
Find other solutions, get help, get sober, right?
That's not easy.
And then their loved ones still treat them like they're actively using, right?
17:56
They're like, where were you?
Or you know what, you were in the bathroom for so long.
What were you doing?
Or you didn't come home last night.
Tell me like you have to share location.
And then the person in recovery is like, Oh my God, I've worked so hard.
Like why don't you recognize that?
18:12
Like I did this for you.
I got, you know, often I got sober for you and now we're still in the same place as when I was using.
I might as well use again.
This is a dynamic that happened with my mom where she she worked really hard to get sober and still I was really guarded with her.
18:31
I was really like, I don't trust that you won't yell at me again or hurt me.
And she's like, but I got sober and I'm in treatment because of you, because I wanted a relationship with you and you don't even let me in right?
It's it was so discouraging for her and I and I, I wanted to trust, but my body and their, my nervous system just couldn't catch up.
18:59
I couldn't catch up fast enough.
I beat myself up for it.
At the time.
I was like, oh, you know, I what's wrong with me?
Is she, you know, all the problems are gone.
She's sober.
It's amazing.
I should be happy.
I should be grateful, but I still was like, there's something that I can't predict.
19:16
I can't predict her behavior still.
I have to keep her at a distance.
Or I had a really, really short fuse with like, oh, if anything reminded me of the fights that we used to have, I would just walk away and not talk to her.
19:33
So I think even just knowing that is the important piece about learning to trust someone who's working through their addiction or working towards recovery or is like fully recovered, right?
We could think of it like there's two different timelines, two different clocks, One is the recovery clock, right?
20:02
Alcoholics Anonymous and NA Narcotics Anonymous and all those different 12 step programs are really good about.
Rewarding and keeping track of how long someone stays sober, right?
20:18
That's their sobriety recovery clock, right?
I've been 60 days clean or it's been 2 years since I've had my last drink or have used right?
So they might have a, an idea of like how long they've been sober, but it might be a different clock then rebuilding trust, right?
20:43
You might have a trust clock, so to speak, a relationship clock, whatever you want to call it.
But your trust clock might be on a different timeline than their sobriety clock, right?
So recovery clock, I'm just like throwing out all these different names, but they might be 60 days sober, but you've had years of broken trust, spoken promises, and it might take a while longer than 60 days for you to start rebuilding trust in them again, right?
21:17
So, and, and also let's be clear, like when we talk about addiction recovery, it is, it's such an interesting thing compared to other mental health issues because there is like a really, we think of it like there's a problem or there's not, they're using or there's not, or they're not right.
21:40
Versus like if someone's depressed, there's like some more of a Gray area.
But if it's like, are they drinking or are they sober?
Are they using or are they sober?
And we think that the sober part is like, oh, that's the person we should trust.
However, maybe the behaviors that led to the broken trust to begin with was just facilitated by the drugs, was just made worse.
22:05
Maybe they aren't trustworthy.
Maybe they aren't.
Maybe they lie.
And they would lie because of the drugs, like they say.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm sober, you know, I'm, I'm clean.
I'm clean.
But they weren't.
They really weren't.
But that lying behavior might have been a behavior that protected their addiction.
22:26
But it still might happen, right?
It's they still might lie even when they're sober, right?
There's that concept of a dry drunk where people who have been drinking might still behave in ways when they were drinking even though they're sober.
22:47
And so that that's basically like personality and interpersonal patterns, right?
Like someone, someone might not stop the things that break trust right when they get sober.
So what I'm saying is building trust is its own timeline and it might make a huge difference when someone is sober, right?
23:08
You might, it might really work towards that building that trust in a big way to be like, I am no longer smoking crack, right?
But that person might, the loved one might need a little bit more to rebuild that trust.
23:26
I want to make make it clear that just because someone becomes sober doesn't mean that the trust should come back right away, right?
It's going to take some time.
It's his own clock, his own timeline.
But what actually builds that trust?
Well, if you think about predictability, being able to predict what someone is going to do, right?
23:50
Having a relative amount of certainty of what that person is going to do, right?
If you're going to be like, like my crystal ball tomorrow at 6:00, what is that?
Where is that person going to be?
That's a helpful framework to understand how to rebuild that again, right?
24:09
And the main approach to rebuilding trust is being predictable, being consistent, right?
Telling someone I'm going to be home at six and then being home at six.
24:31
Also, what helps build trust, which I which might surprise you is being honest about mistakes or things that are that are not so pleasant, right?
We kind of assume that trust is just built by saying I'm sober and I'm never going to do anything about it again.
24:47
And I'll always tell the truth and I will never do something behind your back.
But I think that puts, I think everyone knows that that is a fantasy and that is not actually helpful because it the person dealing with addiction recovery, it's it's a process, It's a road.
25:06
Like the moment they give up drugs, it's not like it's over.
Their bodies have to rebuild their dopamine system have have to rebuild their whole relationship and lifestyle and the way they cope with stress and think about the world has to rebuild, right?
It takes it's a process and to say I'm not going to do any of the things that have hurt you in the past is not realistic.
25:31
It's just not right.
It's a way to sue someone in the moment, like I'll never cheat on you again, right?
It's a way to sue someone in the moment and way to keep them there, keep them in the relationship, give them a fighting chance, but it's not realistic.
What might be more realistic and build more trust is to be honest, right?
25:50
To be like, hey, and this is the person in in recovery, this is not the loved one, but for the person in recovery to say, Yep, OK, I'm going to be there at six.
I told you I'm going to be there at six and I'm going to do everything I can to get there.
26:07
And then if you aren't able to be there at six to let them know and let them know why, right?
You are risking them getting upset, but you always do this.
I knew that you wouldn't.
However, being predictable and consistent to the other person is the important part.
26:24
And it's not one major gesture like bringing flowers and being there at six and being awesome for like a couple weeks.
It is small steps consistently over time.
If a person has been hurt or betrayed in the past made them doubt their whole life, right?
26:46
That's very traumatic.
It's not going to take one major swoop of gestures, romantic gestures or being so honest.
Here's my phone.
You could read everything right?
Like those grand gestures is going to feel good in the moment, but that doesn't build long term trust.
27:05
What does build long term trust is consistency over time.
Even if it's not pleasant, even if it cause fights.
And I'm saying really scary things like if the if the person in recovery admits when they're craving or when they do relapse or when they're, you know, even like, I'm going to keep the secret or I'm going to go somewhere and I'm not going to tell you.
27:38
This is getting kind of tricky.
But because this is saying that if you tell people all the hurtful things that you do, then it'll build trust.
But I do think that making efforts to basically do as you say, right?
28:00
Live up to your word.
And if you can't or there's slip UPS or is there challenges to be honest about that because it is way it builds, it builds trust way more to understand, hey, I'm working towards not using or not lying or not cheating or whatever it is doing the thing, not doing the things that hurt you.
28:29
But it's going to be a process and I'm going to let you in on it so that, you know, you get a bit better Prediction model.
Are you going to be there at six?
Well, today is not a good day, so most likely not.
So try to stay accountable, right, without being defensive and on both sides, right, like being honest and saying, hey, today I'm having urges to to escape and run away.
28:58
I'm going to do that for for a few hours.
I'm not going to, I, I, I'm going to tell you upfront, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to use, I'm not going to relapse, I'm not going to cheat on you.
But I'm just, I just need these 4 hours to myself, right?
That's going to build more trust than you pretending nothing is wrong and then doing it anyway, right?
29:17
And I also think that what builds trust is to make agreements about what this looks like.
So something that I hear loved ones or families or couples really struggle with is living in the world of the vague or ambiguous.
29:41
I need you for a wife to say.
I need, I need to be able to trust you again.
I need for you to be honest and faithful and show me you care.
Totally reasonable things to ask, but what does that even mean?
29:58
Because that showing care could look different at different times, right?
So getting really specific, this is such a cornerstone of couples therapy that it's almost like if there is a a central technique that couples therapy uses, its get specific.
30:19
Get an agreement between two people, you and your loved one about what being consistent or being trustworthy or being faithful looks like.
For example, instead of like saying you just need to do better, say I, I really need for you to tell me where you are, right?
30:43
I just need to know your location, right?
Or I need to if you make a promise to come to your kids sports game, I need you to be there, right?
That is what that's a specific behavior that would build trust with me, right?
31:00
That would make you feel more predictable to me, right?
It is specific because like you could hear the difference between you have to do better for your family and when you say you're going to show up to a soccer game, you're going to be there because the I'm doing better is so subjective that one person might think they're doing better, but the other one thinks, Nope, that's not enough, right?
31:28
So you could have different opinions about what doing better looks like.
However, both of you know, is that person there the soccer game?
Can you can both people observe the facts of what happened?
Go Yep, they were there, right.
So get really specific and say, and you could talk about this.
31:47
You could but make an agreement about what building trust at this stage looks like, right?
If it's just, I need you to, just, when you say you're going to, you're going to tell the kids that you're going to come to a soccer game, I need you to be there, right?
You might also understand that there's other parts or other types of behaviors or parts of relationship where it's going to take more work to build trust, right?
32:17
Let's say you're going to work on making sure that your loved one in recovery shows up to your hit soccer game.
However, having him lie or having him not lie always tell the truth.
32:33
That might take a longer time to rebuild and stay consistent.
So, you know, obviously it would be great if all of that was fixed right away, but let's be realistic here.
Let's really think about in this stage of your relationship, what kinds of behaviors would help you feel like this person is more predictable, right?
33:00
If they just share location with you or if they tell you when they relapse or text you if they're in trouble or if when they feel urges, they call their therapist or sponsor or are they showing up to, you know, soccer games, whatever that looks like, Take it in small steps and be really clear about it.
33:29
Right?
Say Hey, I I really think like what's what makes me nervous about this, this time your recovery is when you were using the kids didn't know if you were going to show up or not.
And that was heartbreaking to see.
I think one major step of building trust back is when you tell the kids that you're going to be there on Saturday at their soccer game, you are going to be there.
33:53
And if you can't, you tell them that too, right?
Something like that where it's very, very clear if if it's a yes or a no, right?
You might also internally or externally give a timeline, right?
Like for the next three months, I need to see you show up at the games when the ones that you say you're going to, right?
34:14
Of course, it might be longer than that, but sometimes giving a timeline is more digestible than I need you to always show up where you need to go, right?
Forever and ever and ever, which is ideal.
But sometimes it's if you're in that like we're in that healing phase, a timeline can really help make that more, I guess focus on really working hard in this really particular period of time.
34:46
It's important for both parties to agree on how are we going to check, right?
How are we going to ensure that the person is saying what they are going to do.
35:02
And I say that because it's sometimes I feel like when someone's trust is broken, it could feel like a tit for tat, like they cheated on me.
Therefore I'm going to check their phone when whenever I want and not tell them, right?
35:18
Like almost like you betrayed my trust.
So I get to betray your trust in order to, I don't know, feel more secure.
And I think that just breaks down trust in general, right?
I think that if it's in not only as important for for you to have a, an agreement about like what behaviors that they need to do to show, show up for you or show you that they are trustworthy, but also how are they going to demonstrate that?
35:44
How are you going to get that reassurance?
Yes, you're going to need more reassurance in the beginning, right?
And maybe not, maybe not forever, but have a mutually agreed way.
Like I get to check your phone once a week or yeah, in in this period of the three months.
36:03
You can I could I'll turn on sharing my location with you so you know where I am, right?
Having that be above board instead of something you have to do secretly for either person is going is going to build trust because trust is built together, right?
36:21
It's not just one person.
I know that one person might have messed up more than the other, but building trust back, unfortunately, it does take two in many ways, more effort on the part of the person who who betrayed the trust.
But I think it's a two way St. and I think a really important part of rebuilding trust is going ahead and assuming something bad's going to happen.
36:51
There's going to be a mistake.
There's going to be a slip up.
I say I talk about this all the time in Kool of mine where if whatever we're anxious about, right, we're afraid someone's going to hurt themselves, We're afraid someone's going to relapse and drive in their car.
37:07
You know they're going to get get into an episode again.
If you as a loved one, if you find yourself constantly worried about that constantly like, oh, I can't upset them.
Otherwise it might drive them to a relapse, right?
37:23
You're constantly worried about that.
We need to go ahead and talk about what you will do when that happens.
Treat it like it's definitely going to happen.
If it doesn't, that's amazing, right?
But let's pretend that that disaster that you're worried about is going to happen.
37:41
They're going to relapse.
They're going to lie again.
They're not going to show up to the kids games, whatever.
And then part of, and that doesn't mean it's all or nothing, like if they do it again, Oh my gosh, I can never trust you again.
Part of the rebuilding trust process is OK.
37:58
We're working towards getting more consistent and where I can predict your behavior.
Let's talk about what happens if you fuck up, right?
If you relapse, what are you going to do?
What am I going to do?
Agree on something like you have to tell me and be honest with your use.
38:19
And then you have to call your sponsor and you have to go to the hospital or if you use or too drunk or too high to the point where you can't come to the kids games, you have to call, call them or message them and tell them that you're not going to come.
38:36
You have to apologize and you have to make it up in this other way.
Right, as I'm saying this, I'm like, oh, I can't believe, I'm not saying it's OK for someone to like break promises like that, but it is so helpful to go ahead and plan for that disaster, right?
38:59
Because it it gives a little, it takes the pressure off a little bit to be like, yeah, I get we can't be perfect.
We can't.
And trust doesn't need perfection all the time, right?
Like you might be so hurt that you say, if I, if this happens one more time, I'm out.
39:16
I get that and on for a long term relationship.
If you want to build that trust, if you're open to that, if you have the capacity for that, it's going to take time and it's going to take accepting that there's going to be slip UPS, right?
There's going to be mistakes.
39:33
It's all about how are you going to handle it together, right?
So in the agreement of I need you to be consistent in these ways.
And this is how we could check on it, right?
And this is how we can demonstrate it to me so I don't have to like check over your shoulder.
39:52
And if you mess up or if you aren't able to do this, if you aren't able to stay sober, this is what we're going to do.
This is what you're going to do and this is what I'm going to do, right?
So being clear on that and getting an agreement in place.
And so.
As the loved one, what can you do right?
40:11
A lot of a lot of what I just talked about is setting it up for what the person of recovery should do, the person who's trying to gain the trust back, what they should do.
But what do you do if you're the loved one and you're like, you know, supposed to just like trust them again and find it hard.
40:30
And I also understand that it's just, it's so difficult to just trust again, right, because you have those feelings of maybe they're lying to me or are they really there?
40:45
Or God, I was, I, I, I felt stupid.
I was made to look stupid before.
I'm not going to fall for that again, right?
So that like constant monitoring, hyper vigilance can really eat away at you, can make you anxious, can make you fixate and think about and obsess over that person in ways that feel weird and natural or draining.
41:08
And they don't like it either, right?
Suddenly you become the police.
So you become like the parent or monitor someone who monitors them.
And in order to get out of that, I, I think it's OK for us to say that is, it's, you can decide to work towards trust together, but it is too much to just say, I just got to trust them, right?
41:36
Forgiveness is different than trust, right?
Saying they've apologized for what they did to me in the past.
And it still hurts.
I still feel shaky in my own perception and it, you know, but we have a, we have talked about what happened in the past to hurt me and I've forgiven them, right?
42:03
That's why I'm still with them.
That's why I'm still connected to them, love it.
Whatever forgiveness might be different than OK, I can trust them from now on, right?
So if you trust is like a predictability, right, of something in the future.
42:19
And it's OK for those two to be a different set of processes, like for forgiving someone for what they did in the past.
And what does this mean for the future?
So I think it's OK to decide that you're going to work towards trust together, like decide to give them a chance, so to speak.
42:36
But trust is is not just going to come all at once, right?
And it also might not help to keep asking for reassurance, right?
You have your agreement in place.
But if, if you're constantly like, hey, did you cheat on me?
42:55
Did you lie to me yesterday?
What did you know did did you?
Are you going to show up tomorrow?
And the person goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it.
Yeah, of course I'm sober.
I'm doing it.
You can trust me.
You might feel some calm in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily build long term trust, right?
43:14
What actually builds trust is their behavior in the future and seeing over time.
OK, They said that they're going to do something and they're going to do it.
They said they're going to do something and they're going to do it over and over again.
So just getting reassurance might feel good in the moment, but for both parties, if you're like, yeah, they reassure me all the time that they're trustworthy now.
43:38
And it still doesn't work, right?
You still have to do it.
It's that makes sense.
That reassurance loop is not always going to work.
It might be important, right?
You might need that reassurance or you might need to talk about it or air out like, I'm anxious about this.
However, know that what they say in that moment of yeah, yeah, believe me, I'm fine.
43:58
I'm going to do it and trust me is not the solution.
The solution is consistent behavior over time, right?
And being able to see that.
And for the loved one, if you're the loved one, know what's in your lane, know what you can control.
44:16
And I know that it's horrible, right?
That's a horrible feeling because you've given your trust to someone.
You've given yourself to someone in whatever way they told you they were just over at a friend's house and they actually were somewhere else.
44:32
And your trust is broken, right?
And so that could feel like in order for us to feel safe, in order for us to be together or for me to have a relationship with them in the way that I want, I have to make sure they never do that again, right?
44:54
But that gets into a tricky situation of I can only trust them if I can control them, right?
If they if I can tell them who they're with, if I could tell them who they hang out with or tell them where they can go or tell them what they can drink or they can't drink, or if we go to a party and they start, you know, ordering a drink, am I going to stop them, right.
45:15
So the loved one, it's really tempting to to feel like in order for me to feel safe in this relationship, I got to be able to control what they do to, to, to not do that.
So make sure that that betrayal doesn't happen again.
45:33
That's going to create a dynamic that you're not going to want right?
You, you're going to feel like I'm like someone's mommy and someone's police.
And then the person in recovery, it's going to feel like they're controlled, right?
Like they feel less than a human.
45:49
They're going to feel infantilized like a child.
And also when people's autonomy, when their freedom or independence is restricted, they're going to fight back.
It's going to get them more defensive.
It might actually make them more secretive, right?
46:04
So even though they might have good intentions to be faithful and honest and open and trustworthy, the constant monitoring and trying to control that person and the the behavior based on that lack of trust might actually cause more problems than it helps.
46:22
So you have to think about like if I'm controlling what they trying to control them, what they do, is that really going to help in the long term?
Is that going to really build trust If they don't, if they don't use because I'm making them stay at home and watch their every move.
46:38
Is that a relationship right?
Is that what you want?
It might be.
I was just saying you might you might want that kind of relationship, which is like good for you.
Two parties are happy with that kind of dynamic, like go forth and prosper.
That's great, but most of the time I see that causing a lot of issues.
46:57
So know what you can control.
You can control as a loved 1.
You can control what behaviors are asking for, right?
You could actually say out loud, I need you to do that.
I need you to show up for those games.
I need you to stay sober.
I need you to tell me where you are.
I need you to never cheat on me again.
47:13
You know, in some ways, but you can ask for what you need to build that trust.
You can share how you feel, right?
And you can decide for yourself what you're going to do in response to their choices, right?
47:30
This is part of that agreement I was talking about.
If someone, if you say if, if you are high one more time, if I see you on coke one more time, that's it, right?
You can't control what your loved one does.
47:47
Like you can't control if they decide to use or not, but you can control what you do if that person breaks their promise, if you see them high, if you see them lie to you.
You can decide many different things.
48:04
It's not always, it's not always the the best move or the right move to just like leave them and never speak to me again or not stop loving them.
But you can think about what makes sense for you, right?
If they're lying to you, you might pull back in other ways, right?
48:21
You might need some space from them or you might not.
If you don't know if they're going to show up to the games, it's your kids games every Saturday.
Well, and I think they said that they're going to show up and they didn't.
Well, then you're just going to not going to invite them or you're going to go with another family member, right?
48:40
So you can decide what you will do based on their decisions and also how you get support around this, right.
Well, how you manage your own emotions around this like feeling anxious, feeling angry, feeling hurt.
You can, well, you can come to, you can actually participate in the study and you can get support from me or a therapist or friends, but you can actually open up and talk about these feelings and talk about what is the best way to handle it and how to communicate it.
49:12
That's really like such a big piece of what you can do and know that that makes a difference, right?
It makes a difference if you're sitting there angry and stewing over it and alone in that versus if you find a community of other people who you could talk to about this, right?
49:28
It might change the way you relate to them, but you can't change or control what another person decides.
And that sucks, right?
A lot of relationship is an act of faith, right?
49:47
You don't know if you're going to lose them in some way or something terrible is going to happen.
Like it's it's it takes a lot of trust and faith to be like, I can't control this person, but I'm going to really trust them or really have a relationship with them or give them my heart, right, because every person is uncertain, right?
50:15
You don't everyone can try their best to be predictable.
I say you're going to show up to the sports game and I'm going to be there, but sometimes life happens, right?
Traffic an accident to something else.
So I'm just saying that that of relationships in general are big act of faith, and I understand that that's hard, right?
50:34
The solution isn't to try to control every piece of it so that it's so predictable in your grasp.
There has to be a little bit of tolerating that there's uncertainty in other people, right?
50:49
And that sucks, right?
You don't Like, I didn't know if my mom was going to be sober and in my life or going to pound another handle of vodka and then die, right?
That that's, that's terrifying, But I can't, I couldn't choose what she does.
51:08
I can't choose whether she picks up that bottle or not, but I can choose what I do in response to that, right?
So in service of that, really think about what's in my control is how I respond, right?
And what when I trust someone, what does that mean?
51:25
What do I do, right?
How much am I trusting someone practically right?
If someone's consistent and I can trust them, what am I doing?
What am I giving them?
How am I behaving and I can't trust them?
How what am I doing?
51:40
What am I what am I not giving them?
What how I'm behaving?
You think about different ways to trust right?
Like you might say, in these three months, you got to show for all the kids games, right?
This is this is important, right?
51:56
And then I can trust you.
If that happens, we could work on trusting you, that I could really rely on you showing up when you can.
And I'll invite you to more things, right?
However, maybe that means you are not ready to trust in this other realm, right?
52:14
This other area of your life or other behavior.
Like maybe that means that you are a little bit more guarded or protective over finances.
Maybe you won't rely on them to make your own plans, right?
52:33
If someone is still working on being consistent with showing up to something, then don't plan things where they need to show up, right?
That's really important right?
If you can't trust someone financially like don't get on a lease with them right?
It's OK for you to wait and ask for hey I will Co sign a lease with you or I will share bank accounts with you or other information.
52:57
If you show me that you're you know you spend money responsibly and don't spend it on drugs, right?
Perfectly reasonable.
So don't see trust as this all or nothing thing.
See this as a give and take a back and forth.
53:13
If they show up and behave consistently, what do I do?
And if they are not consistent, what do I do differently, right?
That's a boundary, right?
I hesitate to use that as a threat.
53:28
Like if you don't come to the next game, I'm going to lock up this and I'll never speak to it, right?
Like if don't use fear to motivate them, but treat.
And the difference is that you're treating both you and them as two people in an agreement, right?
53:47
You both have agency.
You both have choice.
They can choose to show up to that game or and you can choose what to do when they do or don't.
And everyone has.
And it might be sad that one outcome might be more disappointing than than others, but as soon as you treat both people as equals, the better it will be.
54:13
And in service of not treating trust as all or nothing was a vague thing of like, are you a good person?
I trust you or not.
You can really talk about the different areas of trust, right?
And you can talk about where you still feel like you need more consistency and, and where you can trust and where you can't.
54:35
And I'm talking about, it depends on what your relationship is and what you're, you know, if you're talking about a business partner, right?
There's all sorts of different areas where their consistency or trust is important, right?
54:51
Like, all right, do they respond to emails?
Do they show up to client meetings?
Do they do their job?
Do they embezzle the money?
Do they do, do they retreat the money and the assets responsibly, right?
Are they kind and considerate, right?
55:07
So you can talk about all the different areas where their behavior and the and being predictable with their behavior is important to you.
For romantic relationships, it's, you know, there's all these different domains.
There's sex and intimacy, there is sharing finances, there's sharing a home, there's Co parenting, there's how you speak to each other when you're upset.
55:33
Right now I'm listening all the different parts of a relationship.
But think about there might be areas where you can trust them.
Like, oh God, I know that they're going to show up to their kids games every time, right?
I know they're a good dad or a good mom.
They're going to do that.
But I don't trust them.
55:48
If I hand over $1000 to them, that's OK.
And you can say that in a really compassionate way.
You could be honest and say I trust you to show up for your kids.
I love that.
I'm I really admire and I admire how hard you work on being consistent for them.
56:05
Right now, I still need a little bit more time to build trust back on a financial level.
And for that I would need a year of being, you know, having separate finances or really seeing the bank statements and seeing where the money goes and having an open agreement where with how do you spend that, how we spend that money, right?
56:27
That's OK.
So it's OK to look at trust as not an all or nothing thing, but how can you predict someone's behavior and what kind of behavior and what are you going to predict, right.
56:46
So it's all this prediction model of what trust really is.
And I think it's just been fascinating to understand that recovering from addiction is really a team effort, right?
57:03
Getting off drugs, getting off alcohol, kicking, kicking the addiction is just one major move, one major milestone.
But there is so much more about the addiction and the relationship around addiction that needs other type of work.
57:20
So again, if you are in recovery yourself and have a loved one that needs support, need some training, need some education and skills, check out the link in our show notes.
57:37
Or if you are a loved one of someone in addiction recovery and you'd like support from me, then also look at the the link in the show notes and send it to your loved 1.
So both you and both loved ones have to participate in the study.
But it's a really amazing opportunity because you get 3 free months of working with me in this study and there's a limited amount of spots, right?
58:01
There's there's actually like like 10 more available.
So you hear this and this excites you and you just want to understand more want to learn more, go to the link in the show notes.
It'll have everything there but love you guys.
58:18
I love hearing from you.
I love your comments and on YouTube and Spotify and I'll see you next week by.
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58:38
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58:59
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59:15
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59:34
Thank you.