Ep. 208 - Why Young Men Are So Lonely (And Why It's Getting Worse)
Why are so many young men feeling lonely, lost, and disconnected? And why do the things they turn to for comfort often leave them feeling even worse?
In this episode, Dr. Kibby McMahon explores the loneliness trap affecting young men today. From dating struggles and social isolation to looksmaxxing, online communities, and the pressure to be successful, she breaks down how young men can get stuck in a cycle that's increasingly difficult to escape.
But there's a way out, and it might not be what you'd expect.
Drawing on psychology, research, and her own experiences, Dr. Kibby shares three practical ways to rebuild connection, confidence, and a sense of purpose. She also discusses how parents, partners, and loved ones can support struggling men without falling into cycles of resentment, nagging, or overfunctioning.
In this episode:
- Why loneliness and isolation can become a self-reinforcing cycle
- How dating rejection and social pressure contribute to withdrawal
- Why money, appearance, and looksmaxxing aren't the whole answer
- How isolation can affect empathy and social confidence
- Three ways young men can build meaningful connections
- What parents and partners can do to help without losing themselves
Whether you're a young man feeling stuck or someone who loves a man who's struggling, this conversation offers a different way to understand what's happening and how to move forward.
Learn more about KulaMind: https://www.kulamind.com
#MaleLoneliness #MensMentalHealth #YoungMen #MentalHealth #Relationships
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Hi guys, welcome to a little help for.
Our Friends A podcast for people with loved.
Ones struggling with mental health.
Hello little helpers.
Today I'm going to be diving a little deeper into the topic that I've talked about more recently on this podcast, which is what's going on with young men.
0:19
Why are they so lonely?
Why can't they get a girlfriend?
Why do they feel so lost and depressed and disconnected?
I've talked a lot about this topic before on this podcast and I'm gonna I'm gonna be talking about it like I'm talking to the men themselves because I think it's important for guys who are listening to know what's going on with them and how they could break out of it.
0:48
But I know that a lot of you listening are women and you're frustrated with your husband's or boyfriends or situation ships or your son's right?
And you want them to be happy and get better and move on and don't know how to help.
1:05
And you keep nagging or walking on egg shells and not talking to them.
And so this is for both of you, both for the young men and for the women who love them.
So I especially think that this is an important topic now because with the Cornell rape case coming out and the recent episodes with Connor Flannery about men looking to online sources and communities like looks maxing for a solution to their mental health problems and their dating problems.
1:37
And it's making me think a lot more about the one of the biggest pains that men have.
Young men are how am I supposed to be a man in this world?
How am I supposed to get a girlfriend?
1:53
How am I supposed to build my own family?
That seems to be the, the, the, the struggle and the big question that I hear, you know, they're, they're concerned about economy and jobs and career and buying a car and having a lot of money and looking good.
2:11
And all of that is useful for how do I get laid?
Or really how do I have a family on my own one day?
And how can I be proud of myself and be a, you know, like an adult functioning man in the world?
So I've been thinking a lot about it.
2:29
And this episode I'm going to talk a little bit more about my newer insights and I'm really excited.
I think next, or you know, one of the upcoming episodes, I'm going to be talking to Connor about his own personal experience with being lonely and being chronically online, giving him a little live consultation in that in that session.
2:50
But in this one, I'm going to just flesh out a little more of my thoughts about what is going on with this young male loneliness.
Why is it happening?
Why is it getting so bad?
And then talking about what they can do to break out of it.
3:05
And it's not the stuff that talked about before or that you might see online.
It's not like bash your face in so you have a stronger jaw or here's a way to make $1,000,000 in a month, right?
None of the stuff that you could you see.
3:21
But I really thought about it, looked into the research and I have some really key small steps that men can do that can actually move themselves forward in the way that they're looking for, right?
To actually like optimize on something that matters to women.
3:41
And then I'll talk a little bit about what the loved ones, women can do to help them, which is like already, if you listen to this and you're like, oh, we do a lot to help men.
I get it.
But we'll talk a little bit about how we can fix it in a more healthy ways.
Again, if you love someone who's struggling with mental illness or addiction, whether it's your adult child or it's your sibling or partner, anyone who's like drowning in their anger, the depression, you're getting into fights with them.
4:13
You want to support them but don't know how to do it.
And you're also losing yourself in the process.
That is all of what I do.
My program is called Kulamind KUL AM Ind.
I'll have the link in the show notes for you.
But that is where I help people live, you know, in really intensive ways, helping them do those things, helping them set boundaries, helping them communicate, helping to them to have compassion for the person that they love, but also protect themselves.
4:41
So if you're interested in that, check out Cool of mind and we can talk a little bit more.
All right, so what's going on with young men?
What is this loneliness loop like?
I feel like it's it's becoming like this quicksand, the spiral that they're getting into and it's getting worse and worse.
4:57
So I'm hearing this from, from a lot of young men.
So I, I, I'm going to be talking a little bit from the perspective of the conversations I've had with like Gen.
Z guys, as well as their moms who are like, I don't know what's going on with my 25 year old son.
5:15
I don't, you know, how do I help him?
And all I'm seeing is this sad, almost like too common scenario of these men.
Maybe they just graduated college, maybe they just graduated high school or they lost their job, but they're really lost.
5:32
They're living at their parents house or in a house that apartment that their parents are paying for.
They don't have income, they don't have a job.
Maybe they maybe date a little bit, maybe not, but can't seem to find like a healthy good relationship with someone they fall in love with.
5:50
And vice versa.
Of course, we could also talk about the incel culture, right?
Like guys who just feel like they're totally alone and don't have any sex and they're angry about it.
But even men who are not, they're like pissed off at their parents and they're the women who rejected them.
6:09
They're like, I'm not where I want to be in life.
I see all my friends moving on to these relationships and jobs and careers or whatever, and I feel stuck and I don't know what else to do except for vape and drink at my mom's house.
6:26
So we're seeing a lot of that, especially after the pandemic, which is no surprise, but it is when I looked into the research, I mean, this is just to validate that if you are that kind of guy or if you have one in your life, it's you're not alone.
6:43
I mean, this is becoming an epidemic.
I'm sure you've heard about this.
It's like male loneliness epidemic.
But I'm looking at the notes right now.
There's an aggregate Gallup poll from 2023 and 2024 that showed that 25% of young men in the US, that's like ages 15 to 34 reported feeling lonely a lot of yesterday.
7:07
That's one in four dudes, right?
That is.
And it has way more than young women feel.
And this also has gotten worse over time.
A survey Center on American Life showed that in 1993% of men said they had zero close friends. 2021, that number has jumped to 15%.
7:30
I don't even know what it is now, but it is real bad and it only gets worse with time.
Guys, I hate to say it but yeah, your social health often depends on like finding a woman, right?
Men who are divorced or single when they're older are like way worse off than women at that age who are single.
7:53
You guys just have a hard time making friends and bonding and finding women to fall in love with and vice versa.
So it is hard.
It's sucks.
I'm not going to say it's not.
And I also get I do believe that we've done come a long way to say, Hey, there's certain forms of masculinity that are not cool anymore, right?
8:14
Like treating women like objects, sexual assault, right, like making fun of them to their faces, right, that that's pissing women off.
And it also doesn't really make sense because women are becoming more employed, they're coming better at school.
Like it's like, is this power imbalance really like doesn't make sense?
8:32
At the same time, I also get that being like, Oh, let's be a totally a talk against toxic masculinity makes men go, OK, then how do I be like, if I can't go up and have a drink and flirt with a girl at bar without seeming creepy or seeming like I'm doing something non consensual?
8:55
Like what, what do I do?
I do think about this a lot when you know, I have a four year old boy and he's going to grow up to be a man one day and like, I want to know what are the what are the the values or the practices of being a good guy, right?
9:13
We don't really know that much anymore.
So let's look at this as a loneliness loop, like a trap that especially men have gone into.
I've seen some women.
I'm, I'm, I'm also including myself in this loop too, because I've also been a product of like COVID and working remotely.
9:31
I'm literally talking to a camera right now by myself in a house.
So I, I get it.
So I'm not, I'm going to speak from a place of like, I totally get it.
I've seen men that I've loved go go down this loop, this trap.
So this is a way to validate it and understand it instead of shame.
9:53
And for this, OK, so I'm going to, let's look at this as as a trap that they get into that just gets worse and worse.
So the first stage of this loneliness trap is that it starts with the trigger.
All right?
10:08
It starts with a shaming, a social pain, a sting.
They got rejected.
They men.
It's really a shame that we're still pretending that we want like tough and, you know, like, you know, masculine men in this really traditional way.
10:28
But men are feeling like lonely and they're feeling hurt and they want connection and they want to be loved.
And when they don't have a girlfriend or they get broken up with or they ask a girl out and she says no, if could feel like a threat to their ego, right?
10:46
It could feel like a failure.
Women can understand that too, right?
Being rejected by a guy or like, you know, a guy doesn't like you can feel like, Oh my God, who am I, right?
So you have this initial trigger of feeling humiliated or rejected or, you know, even life transitions, right?
11:06
Like graduating where you see everyone else going off to college and you are not going to college you want or not going at all, you know, stuff like that.
So there could be all these different kind of life transitions where it just knocks someone off their course and they withdraw a little bit.
11:23
So that is really the problem.
It's like the withdrawal and the avoidance that they used to cope with this.
I see this more since COVID, right?
Like the world has taught itself that when there's a danger, you know, we could just sit in our rooms and we could work and still kind of live a normal life and function on our computer.
11:45
But like, that's really a coping mechanism of withdrawal, right?
So we've all been like way more familiarized with just isolate yourself, right?
So you get the trigger.
It's really hard.
You pull back, take care of yourself, hide yourself from others, still go online so you feel like you're still socializing, especially if you're like playing video games with other with your friends.
12:09
You still feel like you're in the world, right?
And you are in many ways.
But it there is a level of like, I'm going to shield myself from the pain of the uncertain world, right?
Risky world, as Connor said in our last episode.
And so it, it feels like a solution.
12:28
It feels like, OK, I'm just, I'm just healing from this wound.
But here's the problem that I'm seeing.
Ideally, if you're healing from that, you, you withdraw, you process your emotions and then you get back out there, right?
12:44
You, you try again, you take the risk again.
Some people don't do that.
Some people it is is easy to stay at home, work remotely, hang out, you know, vape at home, have mom pay for your bills, right?
And not only that, you could even just like being in the remote world, right?
13:04
People stay, but they don't realize how much their brain is adapting to this remote isolated world.
So this is this is there's so many problems with this that I'm seeing in patients and my patients loved ones.
One is the basic like you're spending all day not being physically active, not being in sunshine.
13:25
And I what I see is the most damaging as you're not spending face to FaceTime with people, right?
You spend a lot of zoom with people, maybe a lot of chat, but that is like that's like saying, Oh, I having I had strawberry flavored candy instead of like a strawberry, right?
13:47
It's like you're getting the thing that it's like the minimum of what you think like strawberry, but you're not getting all the nutrients, right?
It's just sitting and being with someone in person has does a lot to your brain, right?
And so people are not physically active, not being in sunshine and not talking to people, right.
14:08
So that already your dopamine reward system is going to be like, you know, just kind of week from that.
And what I'm also seeing too is that when you, when you spend a lot of time by yourself, it starts to feel really comfortable, right?
14:23
Like I always make the mental calculation of should I make a coffee at home or should I actually go to the coffee shop and get, you know, Oh my God, I'm going to have to talk to someone.
I'm going to say hi, right.
It's just it, it starts to feel like a lot more effort than it did before to like go out there.
14:42
Then you're dealing with also the risk, right?
The idea of having to date again or having to try to make new friends or to go back to school or something, go back to your job, like be out with people.
That feels way scarier.
14:58
That is the issue that we see that creates anxiety disorders.
The fear of something that used to be dangerous for you is not the problem with anxiety disorders.
The problem is when then you will avoid that risk entirely to the point where you're making your life really small to avoid that discomfort and you're not learning to cope with it.
15:22
I don't know if you guys remember this, but after COVID of spending like basically two years on the computer, going to a party or a dinner party or hanging out with friends in person, I was anxious.
I'm not a socially anxious person.
15:38
I used to be, but I'm not generally it was a, but I was scared.
I was like, what do I talk about?
Where do I put my hands?
Am I staring?
Am I too close?
You know, it was just, if you're not in practice and hanging out with people, hanging out with people or going on a date is like freaking terrifying.
15:57
So that just seems, it just makes the risk seem so much higher than before.
And it happens fast.
The brain adapts quickly.
So you might be inside and you're like, oh, you're getting more depressed, you're getting more anxious and you're like, it feels a lot more effort to put yourself out there.
16:16
So you stay, you stay inside.
And I'll also say something else that I'm seeing, and I only really was alerted to it by the people I work with in Coolamind, who is often parents and moms of young men.
And they were like, there's something weird going on with my son or, or daughter too.
16:35
Not just, not just people who spend a lot of time on, on the computer, remote work and isolation.
They're like, their empathy is going way down.
Like I don't even think they have empathy anymore.
I'm like, what does that look like?
And they're all describing the same thing.
16:51
They'll get text from their loved ones, their kids, their partners, and it'll be text after text over text.
And it's kind of like a diary.
It's kind of like what we would now throw into ChatGPT I the coffee that I bought at Starbucks was terrible.
17:06
And then I don't even know.
I don't feel like going to work, right.
It's just like all of the neurotic thoughts that you have in your head.
But like just text XXXX or call, call, call, call, call to their moms or their, you know, other loved ones.
And that's fine.
17:23
But there's, there's a certain dynamic that happens where the loved ones on the other end feel like, am I even here to them anymore?
Do they even recognize that they're talking to me?
I just feel like I'm dumped on instead of like engaged.
17:41
So it's like it's feeling like a one way relationship.
And the way I understand that is a real decline in perspective taking abilities.
Perspective taking abilities, along with a lot of other really useful social skills is the ability.
17:57
It's it's part of empathy.
It's the ability to understand someone else's thoughts and feelings.
It's like one way we do it is putting yourself in their shoes, so to speak.
But it could literally be just like having a mental representation of another mind in front of you, right?
18:16
It's like if you look at kids under the age of 3 or 4, they don't have that yet, right?
So they're like me and my needs and Mama Mama, right?
That they're just it's just like they're in their world and they're interacting with the world like it's all about them really, right?
18:34
Egocentric, right.
And then suddenly they go, oh, whoa, I have a mind and you have a mind.
We have different minds and they're collaborating, they're communicating.
Oh, what I'm thinking is different than what you're thinking.
OK, let me check on what you're thinking.
What are you thinking, right.
18:50
So the understanding that there's like a separate entity in front of you, some parents of adult children are saying like, I don't, I don't know if they have that, right?
Like they were just texting me over and over and like I haven't responded and they don't seem to care.
19:08
And so this kind of one way communication is really perpetuated by social media, right?
I mean, right here, this is a one way, I feel like I'm in a one way relationship, right?
I'm just talking kind of at myself.
19:24
I'm, I'm trying to do my best to, to represent your mind.
You, the viewer, like, oh, she's probably thinking like, I don't understand this concept.
Kippy's like going off on tangent, you know, I'm trying to keep that in mind, but it's, it's much harder when I don't see anybody, right?
19:40
When I don't see your face go, this part's boring, right?
I don't have any feedback here.
And so if people are online all the time and isolated, they're going to be filled with their own thoughts.
It's an echo Chamber of their own thoughts made worse by your following and watching and reading all these things online that validate your perspective or the opposite are so extremely against it that it's polarizing, get discounted, right?
20:07
So what I'm seeing is this like one way thinking where it's like, here is my thought.
And when it comes time to have a conversation, it just seems like I'm just presenting.
That thought to you and there's not a back and forth, right?
20:23
It's just like trauma dumping or telling you how I'm thinking and feeling and then a real intolerance for any pushback dialogue, other thoughts.
I'm someone disagrees or it's like, oh, I didn't see it that way or no, I don't know.
20:40
Right.
Then the people who are in isolation in their own echo chambers get really briskly.
They get really upset, confused and kind of like awkward when it comes to like, oh, wait, we're not just we're playing a tennis match here.
20:55
It's back and forth with thoughts and ideas.
Not like you present your thought and everyone either applauds or booze right.
So it's it's a, it's a really interesting thing that's happening that we're just getting like used to one way conversations and really destroying our ability to take other people's perspective.
21:19
If we're not walking, your muscles are atrophying.
Walking suddenly feels like more effort and you're just sit more, you don't walk right.
It's a similar thing, like your social skills are getting weaker.
The idea of like, you know, the feeling of talking to someone feels awkward and harder than before.
21:39
And then like you're so used kind of like thinking by yourself that when you have a conversation, it's like what?
It's very jarring.
So then people start to prefer being alone, right?
I like, I, I've spent so much time being sedentary that I prefer kind of like sitting at home.
21:55
I'm like, oh, so tired, right?
The body does that, but the brain does that.
It feels like so much effort to get out there.
So it's, it just feels a lot more like a comfort zone, right?
A safety.
22:11
And but the problem that we're seeing is that you might feel safe in that isolation, but we're seeing record numbers of depression, suicide, self harm, and also the body.
22:26
There's some research showing that there's inflammation in the body.
The body actually acts like it's sick if you are too lonely, right?
So it might feel safe, but it's not safe to be alone.
It's safe in the short term, not in your long term health.
22:44
So if you notice this, I mean, this is just really how any depression or anxiety or a lot of other emotional disorders happen, right?
It's like you break your leg and then you don't do PT, don't walk on that leg and the leg gets worse over time, right?
23:02
And so if this is a loop, this is not like you are a failure, failure of a person or that you, this is going to be like the rest of your life.
Like, no, I mean, if if you let it, but you can break out of it.
If this is you men or women, you can break out of this.
23:19
I think women just have a little bit more of a of a buffer from all of this because we talk so much.
I'm talking to my girlfriends all the time, right?
And we're just naturally more adept at like trying to build community whereas but it's still hard, right?
23:38
Like I'm like, I love community.
That's why major thing, that's my major mission and passion in life and I spend most of the day alone.
I identify with all these things I just said in this loneliness loop.
OK, so now that we understand that young people, especially young men like Gen.
23:58
Z men are in this loneliness trap, right?
They are by themselves a lot, they are online a lot.
They're feeling lonely, they're feeling depressed and they're like, how am I going to get someone to love me?
How am I going to get respect?
24:15
Like my parents think I'm apos and you know, my girlfriend's left me or whatever.
I can't get a girlfriend.
Like, what do I do?
I know that in other episodes we've talked about like how that is a feeder to like looks maxing with the idea that here's the biggest myth.
24:34
OK, I'll just I'll I'll just I'll just say where people are going wrong and how to break out of this loop.
They're clinging on to really old beliefs that money and just plain looks is what will break you out of it.
24:55
And I get that.
If you're feeling this loneliness and lost and like, how do we become a man, it is really appealing to have a game to play, right?
It's really appealing to figure out how do I just get more dollars or how do I get like more muscles, right?
25:14
This is all like as Connor said in our one of our last episodes there it is a is a is a path to working on one metric or one goal and feel like you're moving ahead in life right.
That totally makes sense.
I see why looks maxing and the struggle to like I need to get more money is is where young men turn to as like this is the solution.
25:38
I hear their parents say that they're that their sons are like I need to get this car.
You have to buy me this car or you have to give me plastic surgery on my face.
And unless you do that, you're ruining my life, right.
So I could see why there's like a clinging to these simple solutions, but I think they're wrong by research by by data.
26:00
So here is what I think young men should do to break out of this loneliness, sexless loveless like identity crisis loop. 3 things three main things.
26:16
One is focus on small acts of service.
Stop banging your jaw to make your jaw harder and stop trying to tiptoe to make yourself slightly taller.
Focus on being useful to other people. 2 is rebuild your reward system through Co creating experiences.
26:37
Stop trying to look for situations where you present yourself and either get applause or admiration or likes.
Actually find a way.
I find activities and and conversations where you are creating something new with someone else.
26:58
And three, the counter intuitive power of opening up.
Be vulnerable.
Don't just be vulnerable like blah blah blah blah blah.
Here's all my thoughts and feelings and you just take it and whatever and and you don't matter, right?
Not this one way thing, but saying I feel blah XYZ and I need this and actually talking to someone about it.
27:20
OK, those are the three different strategies that I'll go through and I'll go through in depth right now.
So one, focus on small acts of service.
We are in a we have a crazy destructive myth that if you are feeling lost or, or trying to find yourself, then you should be fully selfish, you know, figure out what you want, do whatever you want, have no responsibilities or demands on you at all.
27:54
I've fell into this myth.
I've seen my husband fall into this myth and I've watched people over and over and the same thing happens.
We're like, whoo, I'm going to have no job, no boyfriend, girlfriend.
I'm going to do me.
I'm I'm just date whoever I want and I'm just going to be free and, you know, no constraints on my time.
28:13
I sleep in whatever I want, right.
And you think that's going to be awesome, especially if you have that luxury and privilege to do that.
You think that's going to be awesome and that's your way of healing.
It is not.
Let me tell you, some of the most depressed that I've been and I've seen my husband been is during those times where it's like I was in Berlin.
28:33
I had, I had a job, I had friends, I had things to do, but it was like way less than now.
And I was just like biking around partying and I was like having the best time.
But feeling like you're just doing things for yourself for a while is really empty.
28:55
It feels fun.
It feels really fun.
And you you think you have to do more of it to really get the fun out of it.
But not feeling useful or purposeful or connected and contributing to a community makes you like die inside.
Like the the most depressed I've seen my husband.
29:12
We've been friends for 8 like 20 years, 18 years was when he was like the most free right?
He was like being a filmmaker, living by himself in a his own bachelor pad like dating and he was like miserable because there was he had no tethers.
He had nothing to like work work towards except for his own ego right like that identity.
29:34
Who am I am IA good person?
Am I winning?
Am I am I doing well right.
If you're only living for that and thinking about, does this person like me, how do I get more liked?
How do I get more money?
Like it's it being untethered and just like absorbed in your own ego and your own mind is a place to just rot.
29:56
That's right, rot.
So most guys are like, well, the way I know how to get out of that and what women want is to for me to get a career and make a lot of money.
But yeah, sure.
30:12
But that's not all.
Because now women can make their own money, right?
Like we don't need that as much from we don't need a sole breadwinner in a in a house anymore.
And men are don't know what to do with that.
They're like, well, that's the way I know how to contribute is my money.
30:31
But yeah, but we've you've got to adapt, bro.
Like we've we've we've passed that women can make money too.
Not as much, which sucks, but we get we don't need that from you as much as we did in previous generations.
So what does that mean?
30:47
Instead of looking for bringing in money as like the only way they could be useful, think about the underlying principle is contributing to other people's lives.
It is being of service to someone outside of you.
31:07
We used to have way more of that.
Or there's some parts of this world that have way more of that through religion, through the army, through other institutions, through like being dedicated to a company, right.
But there's a lot less like I guess avenues for men to feel like they're, they have to or feel like they, they should show up for someone else, for their people, for their community.
31:35
There's a lot more emphasis on self-care and individual meant and autonomy.
I get that.
But then if you're fully in that you, you forget that you're sacrificing that sense of purpose, what it gives you to feel like someone is depending on you, right?
31:54
I know that feels burdensome and heavy and scary, but I have watched, for example, my ex-husband leave his medical job and just hang out in the basement smoking weed, talking about how he loves to help people and not doing any of that.
32:13
And it didn't look good after a while.
Like his mood didn't help.
He didn't want to go out.
He was like was staying indoors a lot like not, you know, not interacting, not helping people.
When he finally did get some work and worked at a preschool and stuff, he started to perk up a little bit.
32:32
Same with my current husband.
He looks he feels happier because he right now he's taking my kid out our kid scootering right.
And is it as easy and fun and free as when he was like in his like, you know, real fuck boy days.
32:51
No like but he is like, I could feel that he is happier, has a sense of purpose or something that gets them up in the morning and feels like someone looks up to you, right?
So instead of just looking at the one form of that, which is money, look at other ways.
33:11
And if you don't know, break it down to micro steps.
Right?
One per day.
Try this.
Ask your family member, your girlfriend, your neighbor, your Co worker, ask hey, how are you doing?
33:28
Can I do something for you?
Is there any way I can help?
Right?
Especially if they're stressed, you know, instead of like, you know, well, someone can just tell me if they need me.
No, like ask he's like, hey, can I can I help you in some way?
Is there something else I can do?
33:45
And not just that throwaway offer, but like, what can I do?
What can I do to help?
Should I help?
You know, I could take out the trash, I could clean, but like really be of service to someone or next time that someone needs something, maybe they say, Oh, you know what really cheers me?
34:05
I, I love like funny movies or I I really miss walking in the park or just something that someone likes and they feel joy or they feel like comfort or help.
Write that down and remember it.
Like keep that person in your mind and then next time offer that right?
34:25
Hey, I know you've been wanting to take a walk in the park.
Do you want to go?
I'm, I'm saying this is just like you could say this to your sister or your brother or your best friend or your, you know, someone you're interested in, right?
Like being thoughtful.
34:42
I'm just saying be thoughtful.
Like think about what that person likes and then and then offer that planet for that person.
Or even just small gestures that were kind of every common day common set like etiquette that we were taught.
Like write someone a thank you note, even sometimes, just like that's a practice on a self, like writing gratitude for someone or celebration for a milestone that they hit, or just bringing over wine or cookies or a snack to someone's house, right?
35:13
Like instead of just showing up and being like, OK, let's order pizza.
Like bring something, right?
But the, the, the main thing is that that might seem silly, but it's going to be huge.
35:29
And I'll tell you why.
One of the reasons why I shifted from just seeing my husband as a friend to a potential partner was 1 moment.
I mean, it wasn't actually one moment.
It was years of him being there for me.
35:45
OK, but I, we had to happen to be single at the same time.
He he was still my friend.
He was visiting me and I had to get a surgery and he was visiting me over the summer and I was like, hey, OK, I'm going to have a surgery in a couple days.
36:01
He's like, what?
Oh my God, I'll come with you.
And I was like, no, no, no, don't, that's silly.
I'm just going to take a taxi and my mom will pick me up.
She's coming.
And he was like, no, I'm coming.
And he woke up at like 6:00 AM with me, took me to the appointment.
36:18
They wouldn't even let him in because he wasn't a family member.
He had to sit like in the lobbies or a cabin somewhere, wait for me.
And then when I got out, he took me in a cab home.
I was like dying because I was like, Oh my God, I'm so embarrassed.
I'm so sorry that like my friend, my guy friend has to come with me to surgery.
36:37
And then I will never forget this.
And I really changed the way I saw him because it actually was something that he was doing all the time.
But I just, you know, it's also me being open to it.
We were watching TV sitting, you know, I was kind of recovering and he was like, we're watching a movie or something.
36:54
And the surgery was in my uterus.
I had to get a polyp removed.
And so it's kind of like, you know, a swollen kind of achy.
And I could see him kind of like looking around the room and thinking really hard.
And I was like, what is he?
37:09
What's going on?
He looked kind of anxious, kind of like.
And then he got up, got a heating pad, plugged it in and gave it to me.
And I realized that at that moment, he was just sitting there trying to think about how to make me feel comfortable.
37:26
I mean, I didn't ask him for any of that.
He didn't have to.
It didn't have to be the right perfect thing.
It was just the fact that he had been sitting there thinking, how can I help her?
How can I be of service to her?
All right, that I really do think.
37:43
I mean, there was, you know, other moments that that shift to that.
But like that was one of the major things where I was like, Oh my God, this is a person that really cares and is willing to do something for me and think of me.
37:59
He still does that as my husband.
And like it was one of the main reasons why I'm so happy in my marriage, right?
So like, if you practice that, am I, it seems weird at first.
People might be like, why are you doing this?
But if you practice it and have it be part of who you are and how people see you, that is the same thing.
38:17
That is what we're looking.
That's US women.
That's what we're looking for.
When you pay for dinner or get a present or something, it's not the dollars you spent at dinner, OK?
It's really because you are demonstrating that you're willing to be generous with your actions.
38:34
For some, that could mean money, that can mean presents, that can mean gestures, whatever.
But the principle is I'm willing to do things for you.
I'm just willing to spend resources on you, whether it's time, energy, thought, I'm, I'm thinking of you and I'm doing things for you.
38:51
This most attractive thing.
You don't have to make a perfect job, but if you show someone that you're willing to do stuff for them and think of them, think of them, be thoughtful, that goes a lot farther.
OK, so that's only #1 #2 is rebuilding your reward system with Co creating experiences.
39:10
And I'm saying like, if I could bottle that into one short sentence, it's stop talking at people and start talking with people.
If you're by yourself, men and women, if you're by yourself for a really long time, you're online, you're reading things that align with your thoughts and you're just in your head all day.
39:35
Your perspective taking has gone that into the toilet.
When that's what that looks like is when someone talks to you, you are just presenting your ideas and they're like, the only thing that you're looking for is their reaction to your what you said to and like, do they like me?
39:55
Or you know, like, did you like that thought?
Do you, do you admire me?
Do you right?
It's like it's almost it's it's conversations with people who are by themselves a lot.
It feels like you're just an audience member.
You're sitting there watching and you're there to either applaud or give some kind of feedback, but you're not there to be a part of the show.
40:17
Right, So it's like a difference between a one man show and improv where the show is created by multiple people interacting, right.
And I, I get that has a lot of risk in it.
I get that when you, when you go out on a date and you're trying to figure out if this is a good partner for you, a lot of people show up like, OK, I'm going to present myself and then see if you like me, right?
40:42
That's that's a real like I'm going to take a test and see what grade I get a performance.
But that leaves the other person as just like an evaluator and not like a person who's creating this experience with you.
So what I mean by that is presenting ideas like let's say you have a thought or you have a question, asking the person question so that you can hear their response, so that you can understand what their experience is like, so that you can bounce back and forth with each other and create a new conversation.
41:15
Come up with new ideas, right?
Create new things, right?
The difference between the one man show and improv, right?
The show is an emergent property of the interaction.
I know that has a lot of risk.
I know that's different than me being like, yeah, to be good on a date, go in, say these questions, tell these funny stories and then use this pick up line, right?
41:37
It's it's it's way more controlled.
If you give like here is how you perform.
It's a lot scarier when you have to improv off of someone else, right?
Because then you're like, I don't know that person what that person's going to say.
I don't know if they're going to like me.
I don't know this is going to go, but people on dates or new friendships, they can feel when you're there to create something new versus if you're there with an agenda, if it's a one man show, because that one man show let you know if you're a guy and you're thinking about going on a date with a girl, right?
42:13
And you're like, oh, I want to go because I want to get laid.
I want a girlfriend, right?
And guys know that feeling desperate on a date is like not attractive.
But I'll, I'll tell you why.
Because if you come in with the agenda of like, I'm going to present myself and see if like, am I getting laid or not, then that leaves the other person's whole being as like nothing, right?
42:38
It, it really devalues like that you're that this person is their own person.
And this is not all about whether it is a good or bad for you, right?
We're not just, we're not just NPCS, we're not just like things to like gain points on.
42:54
We're holding a person that could create a new experience for you, right?
And what that looks like is when I could tell when a guy is like that, when they come in, they say something or do something, and if you don't respond in a certain way, they get upset, right?
43:12
Or vice versa.
It's not just guys.
But if it's like, hey, a guy's like telling a joke and you don't laugh that much and they get all like, they get like awkward and upset and confused and a little defensive, right?
Then it's kind of like, oh, you only want me to give you validation here, like give you positive feedback and be like, I like you.
43:36
Ha ha, ha, That's so funny, right?
And the problem with that is that women will fall into that to people, please, because they want to soothe men's pain.
And so they might be like, ha, ha, Oh my God, that's so funny, right?
But that's not the same as a letting someone be themselves.
And what that means is when you come in, you're like, oh, I want to talk about this movie that we saw.
43:57
If I come in being like, I'm going to tell that person my genius theories of the director and blah, blah, blah.
And you know, she if, if, if she agrees, she's good.
If she doesn't, she doesn't get it.
And you know, if when you, when the other side feels that they, they kind of shrink away, they get bored.
44:18
They, they could feel that they're not engaged in this and they're just there to be an audience.
But if you're like, OK, let me present my ideas about this movie and then ask, like, what do you think?
And then bring out their experience and their thoughts and then, you know, respond back, but approaching it as like something that we're doing together.
44:39
So that's a mentality, right?
It's just like, don't just perform, but make something with that person, right?
And the way to do that is you can come into the situation.
It takes practice, but you could come into situations like dates or a party or meeting someone new and have the goal.
45:04
I want to learn more about this person's experience.
I want to learn about what they care about, what makes, what would mean something to them, what makes them happy, what they love talking about their opinions, right?
45:19
Like I just want to learn.
I want to get in there into that mind, that other mind and just understand more.
That's literally what I do.
And every time I meet someone new as a therapist and it works all the time.
Like it worked.
45:35
Like, I don't come in being like, OK, this person should do this and that and I'm going to see if this and then they better think I'm a brilliant therapist.
No, because you'd feel that.
But I literally come in being like, I don't know anything about this person.
I understand that they're depressed and they want to get better.
45:51
Tell, tell me when this first started, what was that like for you?
How long has it been that way?
Oh my gosh, tell me more about that.
Right.
Like, I just want to fill my brain with more of the picture of who of who you are.
I want to have a mental representation of your inner world.
46:08
So when you have that goal in mind, the other person can feel it, right?
Don't have an agenda.
Like, oh, I'm going to make sure that the scroll is like this level of smart.
But like, let me just be like wherever this goes, OK, Like I'm going to explore.
46:26
I'm going to be open minded.
So that one's a little bit harder to like break down to little pieces, but you could think to yourself, in the last conversations I had with people, I'm interested in dates, new people reflect.
46:43
How much of that conversation were you thinking about yourself?
How much in that conversation were you thinking about whether this person likes you or not?
Even after when you overthink about like, how did that go?
How much of it was, did that person like me?
46:59
Did that person like me versus wow, that person seemed to really like this.
She really cared about this.
Like how much of it was about them versus you?
And if your answer is, oh, it's mostly about me and how they liked me or their reaction to me, that was the problem with the interaction.
47:19
People don't like that when you're self absorbed.
So actually be there for that person, right?
And if you're like, how do I even do that?
Like how do I even, you know, have a conversation with someone?
47:38
This is going into like, how do you talk to new people?
But you could start with when you go in to a new situation, you could always start with a shared experience, right?
That's why people like talking about the weather or the dinner or the food because it's a shared experience.
47:53
You sit down or you're at a party and you're like, how do you know these people?
Or Oh my gosh, this menu looks amazing.
What do you think?
Or wow, it was really cold outside.
Are you OK right, like so bringing like bringing attention or to a shared thing that you both can relate to and then asking them about their experience and then have the goal to learn more and just to ask more.
48:21
Also share.
Don't just sit there interviewing them, but also share part of yourself, right, Tell you know, they ask questions.
Do you share part of you with the goal of like wanting to see the how they respond, right, to create a dialogue, a back and forth, right.
48:38
So that one's difficult, but you can't, you cannot do that by just online alone.
Like I, I get it.
I spend most of my time talking and texting with people, but there is just more room to be lost in your own mind.
Even when you're talking to someone, so see them in their face, like phone or you know, any, anything that you get to get more of their like social feedback in the moment, the more your skills will sharpen.
49:05
OK, and the third one is the counter intuitive power of opening up.
I get it.
Men have a hard time with this because when they do, US women are not that nice a lot of the time.
I get that right.
But like, I, I feel it.
49:21
I I'm so into people opening up.
But I get that whenever I see some post or some guy say like, Oh, things are so hard for men now.
I'm like, what, you know, like, what the fuck?
You know, like it's men, like women are so resentful and tired and you know, that we have a lot of our own feelings.
49:40
So whenever men open up, we just kind of pile on with like, shut up, like we have a worse kind of thing or, you know, like we've been hurt by a lot of men in the in the male dynamics.
So there's a lot of anger and backlash.
And I get that it shouldn't, we shouldn't release that when guys are trying to do the right thing by like opening up and sharing how they feel.
50:04
And I also want to want to make it clear that not all opening up is the same, right?
If you're doing it in this one way conversation, like I just talked about where you're like, hey, I just want to talk about my feelings.
And then like trauma dump, like I feel this.
50:19
I feel that everything's worse.
OK, bye click, right.
Instead of like, hey, I want to share how I'm feeling, but like let's talk about it, right?
So not all opening up is the same in a way that's one sided, but also try not to try not to go on the attack with it, right?
50:40
I think people who have a hard time opening up, especially men want to put a shield around it, right?
So they might express it with anger or even anxiety, right?
To be like, well, you hurt, you hurt me, and how could you do this?
50:58
And next time you got to do that, right?
And then when you ask them and they're like, oh, yeah, share it how I felt.
But the person on the other side just was what felt attacked.
And so they were scared and defensive, and then they didn't listen as well.
So try not to do that.
51:15
Instead, do this.
Share a more vulnerable emotion and you got to practice doing this practice.
Practice makes you get better.
OK?
So do it in small bits.
Find someone you trust and who was easy to talk to already.
51:31
If you don't have a therapist or an online support group or support group in some way, please try, please try it out is so helpful and it gives you practice and being vulnerable, right?
That's one of the main reasons why you go into therapy.
So talk about an emotion you're feeling maybe 1 vulnerable, 1 like shame, hurt or fear or guilt, right?
51:55
One of those like less cool emotions than anger and blame, but one that's vulnerable.
Like I, I feel really embarrassed that my that I asked her ask girl out and she said no, right?
So talk about how I feel right, this and this happened and I felt this not you were you know, you did this and you did that, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
52:22
No accusations, but see if you could say the words.
I feel it made me feel I felt this right.
And then really think about, and this takes practice too, but talk about what you need, right?
52:40
I feel I felt so sad and hurt by the the thing that that girl said on the date or being rejected.
And I just really need to feel like I matter, right?
And talking to someone about that, like sharing that and whether it's like you're asking that person to support by like I, I need you to reassure me that you care about me, right?
53:06
You could have an ask and that I need, but you could also just share with someone your feelings and your experience and then ask about theirs, right?
Ask their opinion, right?
Ask and tell them how they can help but get that practice in the I feel sad, hurt, ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, bad, remorseful.
53:35
And I really need reassurance to feel like I belong, to feel like someone cares about me, to feel heard, right?
That's that's why we have emotions is to be able to identify what we need and express it to someone else and actually get it met.
53:51
But the more you practice that, the the more it allows someone else to feel like they could do the same, right?
And that is what intimacy is, is just opening up to each other.
And intimacy is built by shared vulnerability.
54:10
You share and maybe in that conversation they share a similar experience or feeling.
And then you bond over a shared experience or you share in that moment that person supports you.
And then you do it again the opposite way.
That is how you get closer to someone, a woman a family member, anyone, but I'm seeing a lot more just like going in and blaming right going in and being like you didn't do this.
54:38
That's why I'm like this and that all looks like AI guess a way to deal with shame.
I feel bad about this.
So it's your fault and that would make that would relieve my shame to be to Blake put it all on you.
54:59
But that just leaves the other person being defensive, right?
And of course they're not going to listen to when you're feeling pain because they feel like on the attack.
But instead it could be like this thing, this dynamic, this thing that happened between us that really hurt me.
I I felt really sad and I really need to figure out how we don't get there again.
55:21
I like try to own it, try to own your emotions and again, don't make this just one sided.
Don't come in and just be like that person has to agree with everything I'm saying, but instead see it as this is a chance to Co create.
55:40
This is a chance for me to share how I'm feeling that other person gives their perspective or their support or their own experiences and then you talk.
Elaborate on that right?
I'm seeing too much of I'm hurt and it's because you did.
55:58
You ignored me and the other person might say, oh, I have a different experience.
I didn't ignore you.
I meant to blah blah, blah, blah, and then breakdown right again, Stop just presenting your ideas for them to get so they could get likes, right, Get comments and likes and views create together even when you're opening up.
56:21
All right, so those are I think the three main things that if young men did one, if they figured out how to be useful to other people, acts of service Co create to talk with you instead of at you and opened up in a way that was not attacking accurate and shared how they felt and what they needed.
56:44
Then men would just be like, I mean, women would just fall in love with you.
Seriously, I am literally naming all the things that my husband did to win me over and also win a ton of other women over.
Sorry, I know some of you is actors are watching, but this I saw over and over.
57:02
This is how the men even knew when they didn't.
They weren't like look smacks and they didn't look perfect.
They don't have a lot of money.
The men who were able to do all of this and show up for their partner and really dedicate themselves, they got women all over the place.
OK, So why don't you try it out for a week and, and, and see, and you could tell me if I'm wrong or if this is all stupid.
57:24
And actually when you bash your jaw and made it more chiseled and that's when you know your life was perfect.
So, but here it.
Here's the counterpart to that, like those three different strategies.
And here's what loved ones can do to support that.
57:43
So if you have a partner like your your husband or boyfriend, it's like lonely and isolated and just like lost or your son is like that.
First of all, I get how that feels.
Like I felt that with my ex and I was lost and I was so I was both.
58:05
I was so resentful that I had to be the one to like try to draw him out of it, but I also knew that I could support make the situation better or worse.
Like I had an influence.
I just didn't know what to do.
Like I felt really trapped and helpless and I did all the wrong things by trying to fix it for them, right?
58:28
To constantly reassure them to allow the one way conversation.
That was my biggest mistake is just like allow for me to be talked at and be like, oh, they like they like that.
And so I will just sit here and listen and just be feel like a non person, right?
58:45
There was situations where I felt like I walked away from this conversation and came back.
No one would notice.
That's a problem, right?
That's not a way to help someone.
That's a way to let them just wallow in their own mind, which makes no one happy.
59:00
No one's happy doing that.
OK, so here are the ways to support those three different strategies I mentioned.
If you love someone, love a young man who's struggling one, help them be of service.
Help them be useful to you.
59:18
Tell them how to be useful to you.
Ask them say, hey, can you help me carry up this bag?
Hey, can you, I, I say this, you know, my, my husband just does this naturally, but sometimes I say I'm overwhelmed and he's like, what's going on?
59:35
What do you need?
And I'm like, oh, I have to do this and this and this and I have to, you know, make the doctor's appointment and he'll be like, oh, OK, how can I help?
How could I to #1 like, how can I take some of that load off?
My tendency is like, no, no, no, no, no, I got it, I got it.
59:55
It's like it's it I'm I only.
I feel like I should over function and that's how I'm worthy but.
The better thing to do is say, yeah, you can help me with this or yeah, you know, be nice buying me flowers or yeah, Take Me Out to dinner or yeah, you know, like I've been really struggling and it would be really nice if you offered to, like, do stuff with me more often, right?
1:00:21
So ask men what to do.
Tell them how they you could, they could be helpful to you.
Sometimes we just get mad and are like, Oh, they're I know my worth, they're not good enough, like blah, blah, blah, But we're not giving actual steps for what we want out of them.
1:00:40
We're just like, have you performed?
Oh, you don't think of me and you're selfish.
You're gone.
But you could say like, Hey, you know, I don't like it when we're dating other people.
It's hurting my feelings and I'd like a exclusive relationship and if they and leave it up to them to rise to the occasion, right?
1:00:59
And if they don't, don't try to pull them into it, just step back.
So really just ask them and also say if you if this is your son, What I'm seeing moms do is going is getting a really tough, I mean moms and wives, unfortunately tough cycle of like getting resentful and nagging or backing off like, Oh, you never do you never think of me and what about me?
1:01:25
And fine and or like being totally of service of that to them, right?
Have something in the middle and actually ask them, Hey, can you next time you come over, can you do your laundry or can you actually bring dinner?
I would love to, but I just or can you buy groceries, right?
1:01:43
That would be really helpful.
Thank you.
All right, stop letting men sink to the level of the bare minimum that they're willing to do because they might not know they might be used to.
I see this with like moms and these young men were they're so angry and the moms are just like I, I'm, I'm so far from the relationship that I want with my son.
1:02:11
Like he's screaming at me.
He's telling me what to do.
He's refusing to listen to my boundaries.
Like if he just shows up at a family dinner, I'm happy, right?
That is like the bare minimum, right?
At this point you were like too scared to ask him for anything else.
1:02:28
Stop doing that because as I said, people, especially men are, they get depressed and angry when they're left to their own devices for too long, when they're left to be selfish and no one's asking them of anything, right?
I know that you're trying to keep things low stress for them and just, you know, seeing if that engages them more, but it actually makes people more depressed.
1:02:52
There is real hard research showing that when people are doing things for others like being compassionate, being helpful, volunteering, their mental health and confidence gets better, right?
So do that, allow that.
1:03:09
Give your son or your partner or whoever your loved one a chance to do something for you.
Say, hey, you know what would be great?
If you bring over the case of beer so I don't have to order it myself, right?
Give them direct things that they can do.
And the other is the Co creating the one way conversation.
1:03:30
This is hard when when they are not open to it, right when you like try to when you try to say your opinion and they're like, no, like, no, it's about what I'm thinking.
I just, I just say bring in more of yourself.
Stop letting yourself sink into the background, which I did so much.
1:03:48
Like I would just let my ex-husband talk and talk and talk.
And I just, I literally sometimes would just like be somewhere else in my head for hours.
And it was a one way conversation.
I was like, I'm pretty sure he doesn't remember that I'm a human being here listening.
No check in.
No, like, hey, you know, like, what do you think?
1:04:07
But then if you're in that situation, don't allow yourself to just fall into invisibility.
Actually say, well, you know, this is what I think or this is what I feel, right?
A lot of moms are worried about that.
They're like, you know, my son just keeps complaining, texting and complaining to me about their lies and how hard things are.
1:04:26
But they had not once in the past like four months have asked me about how I'm doing.
And if they're not going to think of that first, like if they didn't hear this podcast and they didn't know to, you know, stop making this a one way dumping, you know, venting session.
1:04:45
Don't make an offending session.
Like tell them how you feel when they're done talking about how they how you know things are for them that day.
You'd be like, yeah, my day was, you know, my day was also hard, blah, blah, blah.
And, and I know it's going to be awkward.
It's awkward to talk about yourself when no one's asking.
1:05:04
But start by saying that, right?
Start by by sharing something about you.
Or you can mention you'd be like, Hey, you know, I don't, I don't know if you're interested in and me and what I have to say.
You haven't asked me a question in a really long time.
1:05:19
All right, point this out in a way that's like non threatening and not to when you're at like Max resentment where you're just ready to just be like, fine, if I if I don't matter to you, I'm piercing out.
And then the last one about helping them open up for women, I know this is really scary because they've experienced their like young men partners getting really aggressive, right?
1:05:48
Like blaming them, being harsh, maybe like doing like punching, like getting aggressive, right?
So they're scared of emotions.
However, what you can do is try to guide them, like help encourage and ask for them to express their more vulnerable emotions that I mentioned in more healthy ways.
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Like if they are getting violent or aggressive or scary, set boundaries around that.
Be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
There's no need for that.
There's no need to yell.
There's no need to come at me like that.
Let's rewind.
How are you feeling?
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What is going on right now?
How long have you been feeling this way?
Tell me how you've how what this is like for you.
And if they keep going at the aggressiveness, you can say, hey, this is not working for me.
The way you're telling me how you feel is scary and it's making me feel defensive.
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And I want to listen to you.
So why don't we slow down or take a break, cool down and tell me what's really going on or tell me what you're feeling and what you need or how I can help, right?
So block and set boundaries.
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Meaning like kind of don't engage with ways of expressing emotions that are harmful to you or scary or unsafe.
And I don't just mean just uncomfortable, right?
If they say like, you know, I'm like, you've hurt me as a mom and you have the tendency to like shrink away with those emotions.
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That's not the same.
I mean, like, if they are causing damage.
And when they do share the softer emotion in a more healthy, effective way, do not punish that, please.
Right.
Like, think about how difficult it is when you finally go, hey, this is my vulnerability and this is what I need.
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And the other person goes, yeah, well, this is Can you imagine how I feel?
And you are a jerk for so long, right?
Like when someone like unleashes all of their counter arguments and resentment when you're vulnerable, that is a guaranteed to shut off communication.
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So when someone does express an emotion and a, you know, more healthy, collaborative and open way, reinforce that by responding.
You could say like this is hard for me to listen to or I don't know exactly what to say, but just ask more questions and say thank you for sharing.
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I didn't know that.
How can I be helpful, right?
So don't attack.
They're being vulnerable.
Try to reinforce the kind of communication that you want to see.
So that is a long winded explanation for how I'm understanding this loneliness loop that young men are getting trapped in.
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Not just young men, young women too, but mostly young men and how some simple steps can actually break you out of that, both if you're in it yourself or your loved ones.
So I'm really curious to hear what you all have to think about this.
1:09:04
So please share in the comments either on YouTube or Spotify.
Please subscribe because I talk about a lot of these topics more.
And I think one of the recent future episodes will be me talking to Connor, who actually like struggles with some of the things that we've talked about here.
1:09:25
And so we could really see if we could implement some of these ideas and Co create maybe new ideas in in that conversation.
So subscribe and.
I'll see you guys next week.
Thanks so much.
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1:10:48
Thank you.