Ep. 207 - Why Young Men Feel Lost: Looksmaxxing, Dating & the Self-Improvement Trap

What’s going on with young men?

In this episode, Dr. Kibby McMahon sits down with Connor to unpack the rise of looksmaxxing and what it might reveal about a much bigger problem: young men feeling increasingly lost, lonely, angry, and unsure of what they’re supposed to be working toward.

They explore how dating apps, social media, changing career paths, AI, rising costs, and the breakdown of traditional milestones have made it harder to see a clear path forward. When the old formula of “work hard, build a career, find a partner, buy a home” feels increasingly out of reach, online communities can offer something incredibly appealing: a game you can actually win.

From looksmaxxing and “mogging” to self-improvement content and extreme appearance optimization, Kibby and Connor discuss why these movements can feel empowering at first—and how they can turn toxic when optimization replaces real connection, purpose, and growth.

They also dig into the uncomfortable reality behind the quick fixes social media sells us: building a meaningful life is usually slower, messier, and much less algorithm-friendly.

If you love someone who is struggling with their mental health, KulaMind provides tools, education, and support to help you care for them without losing yourself in the process.

• Transcript

  0:00

  Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.

  Welcome back, little helpers.

  I'm so excited to talk to Connor again.

  Oh yeah, second time because we planned one podcast episode and then I was like, we have like 18 more things to talk about.

  0:21

  So this will be #2 in a series of, I guess how social media is messing up our relationships and personality or benefiting.

  Maybe there's, there's some angle there, But I really wanted to talk about.

  I think the main question I had was what the F is going on with young men?

  0:40

  That's the broad topic.

  But you know that I work with people who have loved ones struggling with mental health.

  That's like my thing.

  And I found that I've been working with moms and wives of these young men, 2030 years old who are not doing well.

  1:02

  You know, I'll get into the specifics but later.

  But they're not doing well.

  They're struggling, they're angry, they're lost, they're unemployed and they are looks maxing.

  And with the claviculars infamous case right now, which we can talk about, I think this is a really good time to talk about looks maxing and what is going on with young men on the Internet.

  1:25

  Fair to say or.

  I think that's, I think it's a good place to start.

  Yeah, it's it's, and I was telling you right before we hit record, it's, it's interesting because like, you know, I'm, I'm relatively chronically online, so I see a lot of these things pretty early.

  1:40

  And like I was aware of a lot of the space in like 22 and 23.

  It actually had a little, it had a relative like it actually had a social media growth.

  Like this whole community had a had a spike around 23 and 24.

  It cooled off a little bit and then it kind of like shot up to a crazy mainstream.

  1:58

  I think a lot of the reason for that is before it was like like looks maxing edits or whatever would do well on TikTok and there'd be a few creators who would like it had some real volume under this curve of like how how many people saw it.

  But it was the combination of clip because like really clipping culture really as as a mechanism for distribution really started to pick up in 24.

  2:24

  I mean, people have been using clipping for a while.

  I mean, going back to how did Andrew Tate appear in everyone's screens at the same time in 21, it was through clipping, but an in house primitive version.

  And there's been more and more people using clipping.

  And then now it's like it's really productized where you can go to companies, you can say I have an X number of dollar budget and I'm going to pay you by views and they have 100 Clippers that will just clip up across accounts.

  2:48

  So.

  It's actually not easy, but it is relatively.

  Inexpensive to go viral.

  Compared like wait.

  Wait.

  Wait, wait, slow it down for I we're at the level of some people are like what is looks maxing?

  We see it on the news.

  We hear it all the time sometimes, but like what?

  3:06

  What is it?

  Yes.

  So I, I, I don't claim to be be an expert, but I've been, I've been around it enough.

  You know, essentially essentially what it is, is it's mostly it's, it's, it's basically movement.

  Like for like.

  3:21

  Men specifically, since there's a lot of like culture.

  For women, for better, for worse.

  Around like the beauty community of like, how do you kind of like almost like Max like look?

  Better right through like makeup and that's been around forever.

  That's not really a thing.

  3:37

  I mean it is a thing for.

  Men as well.

  But it's not kind of at that same level and looks maxing is this idea.

  It's really based on this kind of premise that looks are some people say the most like the only thing that matters in attraction.

  Some people say it is incredibly important and a lot of the premises, it's not only just.

  3:58

  You know, attracting potential partners.

  It's also how well society will treat you there it.

  And I will say that there is some fundament.

  It's not completely all like BS.

  There is like it's, it's the things that are sometimes.

  The most dangerous are the things that are like the first layer is factually correct, and then you extrapolate from that, and then you extrapolate from that and each, it's like telephone game.

  4:18

  The first thing you said was cracked.

  By the end of it, it can be kind of warped.

  You know, there is, you know, data like, you know, there's really interesting study with, you know.

  It was.

  Big enough sample sized and for something they measure the objective right from third party like assessments, you know, attractiveness of these like kind of all these people that were essentially doing the same role at different companies and they saw that those that were deemed as like 2 points more like there there was a correlation between attraction like attractiveness with it kind of like.

  4:50

  It.

  Wasn't like a straight line up it's, but it was like there that there was like kind of two sections where it's like in the upper echelon, the like down here that there was a like 20 or 30% average like salary increase, while the productivity was basically net 0.

  So it's like not more productive, but got paid more.

  5:06

  There's a lot of like, I mean, I think anecdotally, it's like you can from your own experiences, be like, you know, people that are more attractive, get away with stuff.

  It's like you immediately.

  It's a Halo effect.

  It's called maximum community.

  This idea, the Halo effect, which to some degree is very true, right?

  I think that as a it's, it's, it's, I mean it's almost wired into US of like you are consuming so much information around you.

  5:29

  Your brain has to find and, and they had it like your brain is looking for signals that in that signal, you know, has a ton of compressed information.

  It's like we spoke about before of like social proof of like that study where if like a, you know, guy's attractiveness actually went up when they were doing like a random blind sample whatever when the photo of them happened to have other attractive women around that guy.

  5:56

  Because it's you're doing a quick calculation of if they think that he has high status, therefore there's a decent chance he is right.

  So.

  There is kind of a basis there.

  Being attractive is important.

  Yes, TLDR that super long ramble I went.

  On it's a heuristic for like other stuff that we would want to look for, right?

  6:15

  Like qualities are valuable. 100%, I think it's like like low gene mutation or whatever.

  Like I forgot like the exact like the researchers were trying to figure out.

  Like obviously it's like it's a quick assessment.

  There's so many other factors and there's a lot of variance there.

  6:30

  I think it's like low gene mutation, something like that.

  I mean, there's also like there's a really interesting book of forgetting the name, but it went into like Peacocks.

  And it's like maybe it's like maybe it just evolved to be because like there's no evolutionary benefit to Peacocks.

  6:46

  Peacocks having the prettiest flume.

  Whatever the whatever that's called.

  Right.

  And it's like, well, maybe it just kind of evolved.

  Maybe there was a reason, but maybe in this it just evolved to be and it's like there's questions about that, but that's for another day.

  Regardless, the idea is like it is important and for a lot of like men, it's like, oh, you know, just, you know, be nice and be out there and be confident.

  7:08

  And that is kind of a lot of the standard advice.

  I and this kind of community is almost like the pendulum swing because I think that that is like too minimalistic of an approach.

  And I feel like there is more that needs to be said, but it's almost like a pendulum swing of like, let's go all.

  The way in the other direction.

  7:25

  And the basics of like Luke's Max thing is like.

  Some of the principles are good.

  It's like you should dress.

  Well, and you should look.

  Nice.

  And you should be physically fed and you should, you know, look, you know as good as possible.

  But then you kind of hit this point, we'll go into this more, this weird efficient frontier of like per additional thing you can do, your optimizations yield really negligible returns.

  7:51

  And there's there's.

  There's also a lot of dubious science mixed in the whole bone smashing thing, which sounds insane because it is, is backed in this whole idea of like Wolf's law or something of like the bone will heal back stronger.

  There's no real good.

  Like I've I've looked into this and correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, but like there's no actual evidence like real like sophistic, like significant evidence that your bones will change their structure.

  8:15

  You just have.

  It's like the micro no no.

  No, it's like you will just have inflammation in the moment and then you will just potentially damage nerves in your face.

  Like half your face will be like as if you had Bell's palsy or something like that because you hit a nerve.

  It's, it's, there's a lot of weird things there that spawned out in this attempt for additional optimization beyond the basics of like, you know, get a good haircut, dress well, wash your face.

  8:41

  You know, you should do these things.

  Like, those are the things I'm like, I actually think if that was applied to more men in addition to like the, you know, the be confident, like learn how to sit, like all those things, I'm like, I think that would help.

  Like that'd be not beneficial, but it's these kind of weird you get to the point of optimization.

  Let's start cranking surgery.

  8:57

  It's like I.

  Don't know about that.

  Yeah.

  And for people who don't know what that is, isn't it like the idea that you're you're hammering your jaw to break it, to like make it look stronger so you have a better jawline?

  Is it is that's it, right.

  9:12

  Like literally just breaking your own jaw.

  You like hit it like this and it's like you'll have like micro fractures and then we'll like fuse back-to-back together like like stronger, be more angular there there.

  There's no real good scientific evidence backing that up, right.

  It's it's very weird in a, in a community that is really based on a lot of evidence.

  9:34

  The whole thing is like, well, if you look at the evidence and like looks matters and it's like, yeah, that's true.

  There's a lot of like evidence, but then you mix in things like that and like we're, we're saying both of these have evidence, but just saying that there is something to back it up does not make those two things equivalent because one thing might be very shallow and faulty and one thing might be really rigorously defined, right?

  9:54

  Why?

  Why are we breaking our jaws?

  Why?

  I mean, you were saying like in terms of salary and it could benefit salary, but like what?

  What's going on with the youth?

  What's going on with young men who are drawn to looks Maxing like for what?

  10:12

  Yeah.

  Why break your jaw?

  Yeah, I mean it it, I mean, there's a multitude of reasons and I'll kind of bang through a couple very quickly.

  One, it being so, I mean, if you see it everywhere and it's very popular, it becomes socially acceptable.

  10:30

  It becomes something like it's it almost was like very much not socially acceptable for men to care too much about their appearance.

  It would be.

  Like, oh, it's like you're you're you're not straight if you do that.

  Or it's like, oh, that's so whatever.

  Like there's.

  It was very like almost there was a lot of social pushback against like men caring about their opinion, like appearance.

  10:52

  So it was almost like now it's becoming, it's almost the flip side of like no dude, like I'm just looks maxing.

  It's different, right?

  It's like it's it's it's almost like a vessel which it becomes acceptable.

  And from these like social media algorithms like since the content, a lot of it is like extreme or it's like a very contrarian take.

  11:10

  Some of the things are contrarian but right, and some things are contrarian and crazy.

  That.

  Tends to perform well in these algorithms because it holds attention better, right?

  So one is becoming significantly more socially acceptable 2 There really is for both genders, right?

  11:26

  Or for everyone, right?

  There there is a a a bit of a dating crisis for younger people, right?

  It is.

  If you look at the data, it's the highest levels of, you know, reported loneliness, the lowest levels of, you know, we're the highest levels of people who have not had a date in the last six months, the highest levels of, you know, sexlessness, the highest levels of all of those, all those.

  11:52

  Things right relative to previous generations and.

  There is that kind of frustration of why isn't it working so?

  It it's, it's it's kind of like, and I think a lot of people as well that are and, you know, it's something where.

  12:07

  It's it's seductive in the sense that.

  Even in the term.

  Looks maxing, it's like maximization.

  It's an optimization game.

  It's it's, it's structural, right In a social dynamic, it's very like.

  Intuitive social things, it's complex, it's weird.

  12:24

  It doesn't always work out like a formula.

  Like you can have everything on paper and someone still doesn't want to be with you, right?

  How I've personally been like, like, why don't they want me?

  And it's like, well, there's that is that factor that you just can't quantify for and that's sometimes hard for me to figure.

  Out and it's like it feels good to make to feel like you're you're making progress in life.

  12:44

  There's a lot of this kind of doom sentiment of like, I'm going to be single forever.

  No one's going to like it's not working for me.

  I can make progress.

  Right.

  And then you start to hit this kind of dangerous plateau where it's like you've done all of the low hanging fruit, which I think people should do where it's like in the shower, you smell nice.

  13:03

  You have you dress well for where you are, like you can go to the gym, become healthy, you can do these things.

  And then you start to get to you done those things and you're like, I still need to progress further.

  I think it should be, we'll kind of go more into this because I want to re pivot the combo back to the experiences you're you and your clients are seeing.

  13:20

  And I can try to try to translate from the crazy world of social that I'm in.

  But if you look at the research and I think Doctor David Buss has done a crazy amount of research on this and evolutionary psychology.

  Yeah, evolutionary psychology.

  I actually have the textbook behind me from him.

  I have a few textbooks that are really interesting.

  13:37

  He's done, he's like the most he's done the most research in this field of like human mating and he's done research from tribes in, you know, secluded tribes that don't have outside world kind of exposure to different cultures around the world.

  13:54

  Going back in history and taking a look, Obviously you can look a little.

  Bit more and it's funny how it's like there's all these things.

  That it's like.

  Oh well, the.

  The standards of attraction are so different.

  Culture, culture.

  It's like if you actually look at the data, it's like there's nuances, there's differences.

  Like there is a period in time where being considered medically overweight was a high, was a status signal because you had extra calories from extra food and now it's seen as a low status signal, right?

  14:19

  So, but that one factor of status is a very important measure in the kind of meat value, whatever if you had to quantify it.

  And the thing that's also hard is when you try to, you can quantify these things big picture, but then when you take those quantifications.

  To the one-on-one experiences.

  14:35

  It's almost.

  You forget that when you're talking with someone.

  When you're interested in someone that's sample size n = 1.

  There's a ton of variance relative to population mean.

  But the data is still.

  Interesting and like also differences in short term versus long term mating for what is important.

  Looks are going to be much higher for men when it comes to short term mating versus long term, you know, pair bonding and that kind of difference.

  14:56

  But there's also things that like, you know, kindness is it sounds like oh, it's it's it's cope.

  It's like kindness doesn't matter.

  It's actually no, it's like demonstrated as important because you're going to want a kind father to your kids, right?

  And we're speaking like kind of big picture.

  A lot of this data is more heterosexual standard, you know, that kind of like that's where a lot of the data is of course, like, you know, it's like, well, I don't want to have kids.

  15:19

  Well, if we're looking at on average, that kindness is is wired into us to be an important for that reason, right.

  But yeah, I think some of the problems.

  Is like all those other factors are almost not really.

  Highlighted in looks maxing because it's like.

  15:35

  Well that was the advice we got before and didn't work, so this is.

  What we're doing.

  It's like, no, no, no, the the point is to do all of these things without hitting things at a point of diminishing returns that could be damaging, right?

  It's like, OK, once you've done the basics and looks maxing like just looking better.

  It's really what it is.

  It's like personal grooming, looking better, getting a better hairstyle for you like that matches your, whatever it's like.

  15:55

  OK, then you go to think about your What are you doing with your life?

  Are you sitting in your mom's basement playing video games or is it like you want to start to take some steps towards in a very difficult job market right now, by the way, but like try to take some steps for financial stability because a long term partner is going to care.

  16:13

  Especially it is factored a lot more with men.

  You know, traditionally in the data here, it's like your resources and also it's not only just your total resources, but generosity is important because like if they're my partner, are they going to be generous with the resources to me in our offspring, right?

  16:30

  So there's all these other factors like just going out and talking to people to like just start picking up on socialization of other things that people do.

  It's like all these other things that are much lower hanging fruit.

  So when you get the point of like, I need to do surgery, I need to smash my face, It's like you're hitting these points of like if it goes.

  16:49

  Perfectly and it actually.

  Works and the data isn't.

  Crazy.

  Then you might have this point like this little bit increase in.

  Your attractiveness, but it's not.

  You're looking at your whole like meat value across all these verticals, like barely moved.

  In fact, you're probably losing some on the others because there's an opportunity cost for everything you do.

  17:08

  You spend your money on some crazy like $15,000 surgery to increase like point OO 1% on your out of 10 look scale.

  Well that money could have been invested right?

  That money could have gone towards education, training, research to to progress yourself in the financial field, which then that progression will loop you up so much more.

  17:28

  So I think it's almost like a fundamentally not a bad, not bad concepts, but a lot of bad ideas have spawned.

  Out of it and it's also very toxic culture.

  It's very toxic culture with a lot of it because it's also the Internet and going viral.

  So that's almost like intertwined, but I want to.

  17:45

  Loop it back to kind of like.

  You're going a little bit more in depth beyond your your kind of clients and people you know being like what is looks maxing like.

  Tell me a bit more about their situations without revealing anything to like revealing it for us because there's confidentiality, but like.

  What are some themes you're seeing?

  So as you're talking, it sounds like looks maxing is mostly about dating, right?

  18:07

  It's mostly about yeah.

  And I think what I've seen with clients and just people in general is men your age and around like 20s and 30s, you're supposed to be at the age where you're building, you're, you're preparing to have a family, right?

  18:25

  You're like getting your career and like dating and fighting, right?

  And a lot of factors in the world make that horrible, right?

  We had COVID, right, which actually froze time during a time when you guys are supposed to be like experimenting and making mistakes and doing stupid drugs and you know, like being rude to a girl and getting punched in the face, right?

  18:50

  You're supposed to be out doing stuff and.

  You're learning, right?

  It's a lot of.

  Learning, experimenting in a safe structure that we had like the world.

  OK, good.

  After I party my ass off, I'm going to become a psychologist, right?

  Like we had that structure, but you guys didn't and you had like now AI and like question mark, how do you even like what do you become a lawyer or is Harvey AI going to take over that job?

  19:15

  Right?

  So like big question, a lot of uncertainty, so.

  Yeah, and like.

  I want to jump.

  Quickly into that one thing you said, because I think and then I want to hear that because I, I, I, I think there is this like other like this almost perceived like this is not necessarily the American dream, but this is like the the dream the story that is told of like, you know, for men, it's like have a wife, have kids, have a job, buy a house, maybe a second house, send your kids to college, have a retirement, right I think.

  19:46

  Everything there is really kind of under question.

  I think the the whole college thing as well with kind of like AI, like all the, you know, AI advancements and implementation.

  I think that there is it's it's interesting, like, you know, the price of college has been really dubious for a second.

  20:02

  It's like, whoa, this is.

  It's non in 2005 they made it non bankruptible.

  Like a lot of the the public.

  You know, student does not not bankruptible, which you can't drink alcohol legally, but you can make the biggest financial decision of your life because a house you at least have equity in it.

  That's at least like an investment.

  20:18

  College.

  Degrees in theory, like it is an investment where it's like, OK, if I what is the what is like the delta?

  What is the change between all my like, let's take, I don't go to college.

  What is my income potential?

  My cash flows almost of income over my lifespan, let's say 30 years of working career, summing all those up and that's like a total sum value.

  20:39

  With a college degree in theory your total sum of your income, cash flow, potential of like your working career given you went to college would be the the the delta like the difference between non college and going to college that.

  Income grade like that delta.

  20:55

  In theory, it's greater.

  Is going to be significantly more than the investment in college even given inflation.

  So like the real numbers given the really high interest rates, you're still.

  Going to make so much more.

  So going to college is a reasonable investment.

  That's been kind of questionable since not all college degrees will yield you equal like income, but they're priced exactly the same, which I think is an interesting pricing model.

  21:20

  But then also college basically besides like nursing, you can get a nursing degree and nursing is actually a fantastic field to go into.

  It's going to be very, it pays, it's very hard, so you have to want to do it.

  But I have a friend who's a nurse who like it's really hard, but loves it because it's helping people.

  That's not going to get replaced by AI and the the job security is pretty great.

  21:38

  But otherwise, college is almost knowledge.

  Work which you.

  Can't.

  It's like a is almost.

  Clouding your future cash flow calculation as you said with Harvey.

  Right.

  And also Open AI released their own kind of law suite.

  It's like at the end of the day, I think people are going to want to be involved.

  21:54

  In the law of.

  Governing themselves.

  But that doesn't mean that a law firm has to have 500 associates anymore.

  They might just need 10 and a series of agents.

  So then you can't.

  Price out those future cash flows with the certainty that you least once before did.

  22:09

  And that really brings into question this.

  Investment, which is a college like that initial upfront investment, will that really, can I actually cash flow this out to justify it?

  And I feel like you can't cash flow anything out at this point in the knowledge work or field because it's so questionable.

  Maybe network and prestige of a top 1010, maybe a top ten, top 15 is still going to be relevant for a while.

  22:31

  But that whole idea of college, the kind of like this is how I increase the income ladder.

  It's like, Nope.

  It's like, what's your other option?

  Figure it out.

  What are you supposed to do?

  But anyways, that was.

  Like a really in depth view of why they're screwed, like why someone would be so sick.

  It's funny because as soon as you you started talking about, I mean, it makes sense to think of this as like an investment.

  22:51

  I think of like pure salary.

  But like from the interpersonal standpoint.

  I met my husband on freshman year college was he's stumbling down drunk into hallway like you know, so that like how can you look at the ROI on that right, but we'll.

  23:08

  See that's that's that's really undervalued, I think by because there's this kind of like culture online of like the make money online kids of like starting an online business.

  I have an online business like.

  And.

  I've defended my time at college.

  I'm like it's case by case.

  It's not a blanket statement, but I mean one, a lot of connections from that that I've went out of my way to reach out to people saying I went to the school.

  23:28

  I want to talk to you.

  A lot of clients, a lot of connections.

  It's been very helpful, but for me it was a socialization element that was the most important part, that experience.

  Like I've met the greatest group of friends like I ever could.

  Like I met them in the first week.

  It's like, you know, in the middle, just like, you know, when my, you know, October of like my senior year, it's like my dad died suddenly and every single one of them, like they had different plans, whatever they all flew out to, like they all flew out to random western, western Mass, go to the funeral.

  23:59

  Like every single day they'd come by and just like eat with me.

  It's like that's the type of thing that there is no price tag on.

  However, there is a price tag on it.

  It's like you can't value it, but you have to pay.

  Like at the end of the day, if you're like spending that money on college, it becomes really hard to say.

  24:15

  I know this is going to sink me financially for the rest of my life or this is going to be a net negative investment, but I really want the social experiences at that point.

  It's like, well, there might be, you might just have to crop up and build other social experiences to replace that because college is an all in one package of that earning power over time.

  24:33

  Delta difference is going to be greater, but then you get all those other things that make it really great.

  Yeah.

  So what I'm seeing is, I mean, the college is one of those things that that's a perfect example of.

  You just listed a bunch of stuff that you said was the recipe for happiness.

  24:51

  You know, go to college and get and join a company and start as an intern and then go up and work your way up and then get married and have a couple kids and send them to college, right?

  Worth your 4O1K.

  That is the the snapshot of happiness that you just said.

  25:08

  And that is the recipe for happiness in the boomer generation, right?

  It's very even even in my generation, it's very different, right?

  We have multiple careers and jobs with multiple marriages.

  You know, the, the success is to get, you know, gets a get a job that has benefits to cover your IVF cycle, because we're all 35 when we start, right?

  25:30

  So it's, it's already very different.

  And I think that I've been seeing these young men who are really, really angry, really angry that their soul, the picture of happiness.

  You just told me their parents want that for them go to a good college and get find a woman and look at that.

  25:49

  And they're like, this is so much harder.

  And almost like, as you were saying with the college thing, like is this worth it?

  Like do I want to have kids?

  Like, you know, there there are the real questions with this uncertainty in the future and they're lost and angry and the problem that I see.

  26:08

  And maybe I'm just I'm seeing a bio sample.

  So you tell me if you're seeing this too, but it's kind of like my.

  By a sample so.

  OK, I want to see if by his examples because I'm like it was it's this like all men.

  Like.

  I this was like it was I saw it up close most with my ex-husband who's not even Gen.

  26:29

  Z.

  He's not even in this population.

  But you get they graduate, they finish the degree, they get the woman, whatever.

  And then or not even.

  And they're furious.

  They're furious that some part of the dream didn't come true.

  Their friends are doing better somehow.

  26:46

  And what they do is collapse into avoidance.

  They stay at home.

  They smoke a ton of weed, vaping.

  They're playing video games, they're doing some things online to feel productive, like a course or a thing, or thinking about the thinking about the startup that they're going to start, right?

  27:07

  That's a.

  Popular.

  Dopamine and anticipates the reward so.

  I'm going.

  To be a founder, right?

  When when, when I was like a lot when I was like younger, like even before, like really well, I had like the YouTube a little bit, but there's this kind of in between period where I didn't it wasn't really going anywhere.

  It wasn't really pushing it.

  27:23

  I was like, I would watch what those motivational like fix your life.

  Videos I would do all the like.

  Well, I'll journal for 10 minutes.

  About what?

  Yeah.

  Well, I'll wake up at 4:00 AM, OK.

  Why?

  To do what?

  And I was like.

  I would watch those videos and I'd feel good by watching those.

  Videos And then I saw a video in my recommended about the trap of self improvement videos.

  27:42

  I was like, shit, they're right.

  Yeah.

  So no, I get.

  That yeah.

  And, and the first of all, I, I, my, my ex didn't do this, but I see this in my clients, loved ones.

  The sad part is they get really aggressive to their partners that they have one or their moms.

  28:02

  They look so mean rage texts, screaming, staying in their basement, but saying like you mom, this is all your fault.

  You have to house me because like you made me this way because you didn't send me to the school or that or whatever, or you didn't validate me when I said this or you didn't give me this loan, right?

  28:21

  Like some blame, but then they do nothing.

  Like all these moms are like they.

  I've heard of several stories of these men coming into their poor mom's bedrooms at night screaming at them at 3:00 AM.

  28:38

  Like you, I'm like this because of you.

  And the moms are all like, from like I get their perspective.

  They're like, yeah, life was hard.

  I didn't have all this stuff like I worked, I got a job as a waitress.

  28:54

  I raised you on my own and I, I what I, what I worry about my, my hypothesis that I'm sure there's a lot more to it is they like, life is hard.

  Things are hard.

  29:09

  We're very lonely, but social media and I'm I'm part of the problem is selling really like the idea of like what you're saying that the self self improvement trap selling quick solutions.

  29:26

  I I can tell you how to fix your depression in 60 seconds.

  Then we fucking can't.

  No.

  It's really hard and takes a long time and more than one minute.

  Real, right?

  But that's what gets you to watch.

  So if I have a jaw that stops your scroll and says all, dude, all your problems can be fixed if you smash your face to look like me, that's a lot more appealing than the truth, which is, yeah, you're going to have to like, be a Uber Eats driver for a while.

  29:58

  You're going to have to, like, work your way up.

  You're not going to get vacation.

  You're going to date a lot of women.

  They're all going to reject you and break your heart.

  And you have to keep going for years until you get there, right?

  Like, that's not going to sell.

  That's not going to.

  You're not going to stop the scroll for that.

  That's my bias at least.

  30:14

  Like thinking this like quick dopamine hits really works against people here.

  Yeah.

  I mean, I think it's, I mean, it's just the kind of like incentive.

  Structures of these social sites, right, I think that I mean, I love the game of social media.

  30:32

  Obviously it's the thing I'm, you know, very I've been into for a while.

  It's like a fun and interesting game.

  I think there's a lot of great entertainment.

  I think that there's a lot of like good education, but then they're all, I mean, it is just really is built for, you know, you need a contrarian hook, right?

  30:50

  Something that will make people think right now it's like, OK, the current like I have no way out of this.

  OK, there is a way out.

  And, you know, and, and do you really want to hear that kind of like advice because like I think part of it as well.

  And I think sometimes a younger generation, like an older generation, it's like they, they did have to work like very hard, right?

  31:12

  And it's like all, all those other things.

  I think I, I, I feel like sometimes the, the frustration is like, if you look at a lot of the data of just where things are, it's like that traditional model of like working hard and doing that is not going to yield the results on average that, you know, it used to.

  31:31

  I mean, you can even look at the, the real wage growth versus like GDP and there's like a pretty significant, like the decoupling.

  You can go back to the 1970s or like some, I think it's 1973 or something.

  You can pinpoint like the decoupling if you adjusted for inflation, it's like kind of stagnated wall.

  31:47

  Like, you know, GDP has gone up, which also the cost of living and all those things as well, you know.

  College doesn't really a college degree does not mean what it used to.

  And as we talked about, it's very questionable the median home price right now where the median income you need to get a loan on a house is almost double the median income like right now.

  32:09

  And that's actually very reason like that actually kind of broke apart in the last couple years.

  It's like these and, and also kind of like the work your your way up, like a lot of the jobs that you know, it's like, wow, like you can just download Uber and you know, you can, you can do that.

  32:26

  It's like, yes, there's also no rear progression in that.

  It's like you're kind of stuck in this like wage and it's I, I, I think the idea of a better tomorrow will owe it like is a really strong story.

  To justify any today, right.

  32:43

  And I think this idea of like built in growth within everything you do, it's like, yes, I go on a date, but you know, I'm I'm if I have if I was able to look back at this, I am, let's say 14 days away from meeting my person.

  So I don't know what that number is, but if that I'm at least N -, 1 closer towards finding that person.

  33:06

  OK, yeah, I'm working this kind of shitty job and it's not great, but I see what I could do in the next couple years.

  If I put my if it's like the effort is you're the rewarded.

  Yeah.

  It's like the effort you put in.

  There's a path towards it.

  And I think sometimes, you know, parents who did have to work hard kind of the frustration is like, well, I worked hard and they're not working hard.

  33:29

  Therefore that must be the reason why it's not working.

  Where for some cases that might be true.

  I'm making a gross generalization, right?

  Because we're just talking about big picture data.

  But it's like the paths of putting in that effort do not yield nearly the path like that was yield before.

  33:45

  Therefore, why put in the effort?

  Why plant seeds?

  It's not going to grow.

  Yeah.

  Yeah.

  And yeah, I, I, I think.

  That's one of the biggest differences where the parents aren't wrong of like wanting their kids to put in effort because that's what they needed to do.

  And sometimes the kids aren't totally wrong in the sense that, you know, the efforts not being rewarded in the same way it was before.

  34:08

  I still think you'll have a much better life if you put in the effort and those things, like you said, yeah, you need to, you might need to do the kind of like the the Uber job or the DoorDash job for a while.

  It's like while you figure things out, it's like, yeah, you're not going to have great career progression in there, but it will give you some income.

  34:24

  It's a starting place, right?

  And it's like, yeah, you still need to do some of these things.

  We'll put you in a better position.

  But yeah, imagine if someone said, well, all your problems will be solved by this.

  And most of the time too, on social, they don't blatantly say that.

  It is heavily implied because I think if someone said well there are the reels like here, you're like go.

  34:44

  To sleep in 30 seconds, I'm like. 2:00 in the morning, you're like, thank God, you're still up till 5, right?

  I think sometimes when it's that blatant, sometimes you still fall for it.

  But I think the really, the really dangerous ones is where it's, it's implied you have the looks Maxer who looks a lot worse and then looks a lot better.

  35:01

  And you see all the things they did when a lot of that was, you know, changing their, their diet and face composition.

  Because like, you know, if like a lot of it is like face composition and just like doing basic things, but they do all those things.

  You're like, this is replicating success.

  35:17

  And then you also forget that some of these looks Max and craters start to make a lot of money from and they gain a lot of status from these activities being posted online.

  So not only do they look better because of some of the things they did, not inherently all the things they did, but they are also checking these other boxes that if you just do these things, well, obviously you won't get those results.

  35:37

  But you don't think it through as much when a plan is given to you and an end result is shown.

  Not like it's gonna happen, but it's shown, right?

  I think that's a big difference there, or a big problem.

  Well, you're, you're, you're bringing up an interesting framework.

  35:53

  I was, I was thinking about, OK, we, we're diving into, we're talking about the means of the end, right?

  And the end is have a family date and have a family right to survive.

  If like if we understand that is like the goal that everyone's struggling with and then looks Max and he's like, look at this.

  36:11

  You break your jaw and suddenly you know women are going to love you so.

  You a little kid, a nice house and a golden retriever.

  Yeah, you get paid all.

  Yeah, she'll respect you.

  It's going to be great.

  So it's it's optimizing these features that are signs or heuristics of reproductive worth viability, right?

  36:33

  Like it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you know, having like corsets cinch the waist back then to show childbearing hips.

  So you, it looks like this woman can bear her children, right?

  It's like, and then we went nuts with it where it's like too much.

  36:49

  So it's like, what are the the question is, what are the qualities of a good partner?

  Like men at this point don't know, right?

  They used to be make a lot of money, be strong, whatever, and now we're yelling at you guys for it.

  37:06

  So it's like question mark, how do you actually get a girl?

  What we what do we actually value?

  But I maybe the looks maxing is not wrong, because if social media is 1 very viable way to make a living or get notoriety or like deals or whatever, then it makes sense to optimize on the things that get you views, which is looking crazy, right?

  37:35

  Like to like if you saw those like before and after and you you showed me this androgenic or whatever his name is.

  As soon as I like saw his account, I was like, whoa, he looks so weird.

  I got to see all of his videos because to understand why does he look so weird?

  37:54

  And like I had a disgust feeling too.

  I was like, there's no way if this guy was in the room, I would never have sex with him.

  But I'm looking at him.

  I'm giving him views.

  He's going to get some money from this, right?

  So like, maybe in this weird world of social media looking crazy, it's actually an evolutionary advantage.

  38:18

  Yeah.

  I think it's always, always good to also think about the incentive structures of the systems.

  Like you said, I think you know what you're rewarded with within social media system can sometimes be more so like it's, it's that it's, it's attention, right?

  38:36

  And it's like, how do you fight for attention versus I mean, I talked about this sometimes with clients too.

  It's like you've like Instagram has a data point of like they say, people will more or less make up their mind within the first 3 seconds of a video if they're going to swipe or watch.

  It doesn't mean you have to cram everything into 3 seconds.

  You can't you.

  38:51

  Probably can press it too much, but people more or less come to that conclusion pretty quickly.

  So it's all about in there.

  There's an infinite pot of scrolling for better videos.

  So especially as the videos get shorter, you know a short form video taking control.

  39:07

  It's like you need to, it's the fight gets more challenging to you have more opportunities.

  Short form has allowed so many more people to have platforms because the average person, let's say you go on YouTube and you only watch long form videos in a 60 minute session or let's do a 30 minute session.

  39:26

  You might watch 215 minute videos, you might watch 130 minute video.

  If you watch this video, you're already 40 minutes in, but in short form, you know, you could be watching, you know, 15 second videos.

  Let's say it averages out to that.

  It's like 4 per minute.

  So all of a sudden, you know, in 30 minutes you'd watch 120 videos.

  39:45

  So all of a sudden there's more slots for people to become, you know, have a platform.

  That's why YouTube actually made their play buttons, their creator reward play buttons smaller after YouTube Shorts because it became easier to accumulate subscribers and hit the 100K1 mil mil milestones. 10 mil is still the same because that's still really hard.

  40:03

  Object it's just like on that log scale, it doesn't matter if it got twice as easy, you're on a log scale there.

  So it's still very challenging, but because there's more opportunities, but there's also significantly more videos, it's easier to produce those and fighting for that attention span, someone is going to make a very split second decision.

  40:22

  So you have to think about the incentives there as well.

  So yeah, you'll also sometimes see like, you know, looks Max and craters who almost have a little bit of an arc of, you know, they look objectively not that great when they start the before photos.

  Like if they get into that space and you're really deep in that space, you know, you got dealt a bad hand, right.

  40:42

  I think, you know, I have a side and I'm going to put this here so I don't forget because I want to bring this up things interesting.

  But and they actually have this kind of progression arc where they start to look better and better.

  And then they hit this weird optimization phase where they actually start to, I think objectively look worse.

  40:57

  If you were to take a like random sample of people, not were actually most of the time it's not worse in the beginning, but it is starting to fall down.

  But they're getting positive reinforcement from the social content online.

  So you actually see almost like a looks curve where it's like this, where the effect like the actual result curve or what they're doing is like this.

  41:16

  So why would you stop that?

  If the total option like the optimization this like it keeps working and I wanted to I there's also this kind of like there's within like the looks maxing as well.

  There's also like almost people are like, if you're in the kind of like dooming and giving up and probably some of the things that you know, in that kind of space, some people you work with like their loved ones, you know, if they're kind of entering that kind of downward spiral.

  41:44

  There's also this kind of like idea of like if you are ugly, you can do a little bit, but like if you're below a certain point, it's over for you.

  You'll never have a partner.

  You'll never get anywhere.

  People will never have respect for you.

  And it has this very interesting.

  I think it's interesting as well.

  42:00

  Like in in society, it's like it's obvious.

  Nepotism is like obvious of like someone was born on first third base.

  That one I think is like very obvious and people like, well, they still get ahead, but it's like you'll get a lot of social like pushback.

  42:18

  I think being born like pretty attractive, I think has a little bit of like, well, you know, you didn't work for that, right?

  But I think that's also one where nepotism is like it's, it's it's it's like that one's like, Oh, you're just like a neppo baby.

  Oh, you didn't work for it, right.

  Someone's like really attractive.

  42:34

  You definitely don't hear that as much and you know, quite often you kind of just spawn in that way for a lot of like base.

  I mean, there's a lot of things you can do to kind of like move up and down, but it's like if you were at a on this objective scale like one, it's like there's almost no trajectory to like attend because a lot of those things are just like built in.

  42:51

  It's like so much change would be so unhealthy.

  You basically have to die in the process and be like body modification and optimization.

  I think that there's this difference between I think, you know, you know, being being healthy and you know, if you're a lot of the signals of attractiveness are also how healthy someone is due to like, you know, almost like reproductive, like fertility.

  43:16

  I think it's I think it's interesting too this, this really strange trend, which I don't know much about.

  It's just very weird to me of especially I think like the early 2000s and like 2000 tens of this like the, the, the female models that were like pushed again and again and again were like extremely thin.

  43:36

  And if you surveyed men, they wouldn't find them attractive because objectively it's like you're not thinking, Oh, well, this person isn't fertile.

  You're not thinking that you're not like actually clocking that, but subconsciously that's why they're not attractive like the most men are like, no, like that doesn't make sense.

  43:52

  It was, it was almost strange where it's like, you know, it was, it was almost like, I don't want to say women doing it for women because I'm not placing the blame on them.

  I feel like it was, it was the whole like, you know, anorexia being one of like the most deadly diseases out there.

  44:09

  It's it's insane.

  Like I've known people who've like gone through that and it's it's I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, right.

  But it's it's interesting how that standard was set.

  There was almost contradictory towards beauty standards is almost like pure status standards there.

  But generally, you know, a lot of attraction is like converges towards a decent signal of health, also reproductive health.

  44:32

  That's why being too skinny is not attractive because it's like you can't have kids if you're, I don't know the data that well on that, but I know it's like a certain point, like you no longer have your period or something.

  You literally can't have children, right?

  So that's why it's like, that's not attractive and it's, it's, it's, but there is also like you can sometimes there's, you know, cosmetic things, but I think there's a difference between, you know, some superficial things like, you know, makeup or doing your hair different.

  45:02

  And I'm talking about men and women here.

  And like a being, you know, a little bit more seen as healthy.

  They're like, those are positive signals for attraction, right?

  And then there's also body modification and optimization, right?

  And that's where it gets like, I'm like, I feel a little iffy on that of like, let me pull myself apart to reconstruct it to this way, right.

  45:25

  And it's, you know, I think a lot of people in the looks maxing and men type side of this online are actually, I think that normal, I think that the normal population actually gives them a lot of pushback even within the looks maxing.

  It's like, yeah, you should get all these surgeries.

  I, I kind of feel like if we could it's it's so easy to be like, guys, we should set a different standard.

  45:46

  But I, I almost feel like, you know, when you look at it's, it's been more common for a long time for like it to be socially acceptable or like put upon like women, especially as they get older to get all these surgeries.

  I mean, even like something like Botox, which, you know, a little bit is like fine or what sometimes good for migraines or like these, especially Hollywood reconstruction.

  46:05

  I think men you see that as well and Hollywood because that's like this really weird subset of like you're always like being looked at.

  And it's funny too.

  It's like after maybe one surgery goes well, but like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's strange.

  It's like you look at some of these Hollywood actors or a lot of them who are like, oh, they, if it's like, oh, this person has had surgery, it's almost like your brain picks up on the fact that it is a it is trying to fake that inherent signal.

  46:32

  Therefore it almost opposite effect because it's like they're trying to be deceitful.

  Therefore the extent of what they're covering up might be greater than what I predicted.

  Therefore, they're not attractive, right?

  Then maybe it's less.

  It's less.

  I mean it's it's funny to, you know, look at the looks maxing guys and it's funny, not funny.

  46:52

  It's terrible that clavicular is out charged with rape because every time I see those kind of the the image of those men, my first reaction is that guy looks like he's gonna hit me like that guy looks like he's gonna be violent against me.

  So it maybe it maybe it's less about maybe when you when we get to that optimization curve, as you were saying, like, oh, you know, like take a shower meant women are gonna like that, you know, do my hair like, oh, no, like now I'm gonna break my jaw.

  47:20

  Maybe the break your jaw part is less about attracting women and more competition against other men, right?

  Because like.

  Women, you can see that.

  Exactly.

  Yeah, exactly.

  Like the pre looks acting.

  Maybe is not about like attracting women, but it's like, I mean, you hear it in the way they're talking about it.

  47:40

  Like they're talking about whether what is it?

  You're gonna get mugged.

  Mugged.

  Mugged.

  Mugging.

  Mugging where?

  It's like, it's funny actually about like comparing to other men.

  Right.

  In like random casual conversation, I use like the term mox.

  I just and I because I've been on the Internet so long, I sometimes forget what people know and what's just like weird comment sections on the Internet.

  48:01

  I read.

  I was like what?

  I was like I was like, give it two years, you'll know.

  Well, I was.

  Joking that my my my dog was mocking that morning and no one knew.

  What I meant but I was like.

  You got time, you'll know.

  But it's less about like the, the, the, you know, response about women and it's more like, are you, how do you compete to the guy next to you, which ultimately probably is for the women.

  48:23

  But I remember when I was talking to my husband about like getting into social media and seeing all of these men and women being so mad at each other.

  And I'm like, hey, what do you think that men need to for their mental health?

  Like, what do you think we should do?

  48:40

  And he's like, if you want to make men happy, give them a game to win.

  Yeah.

  Right.

  And like looks maxing, it's a game to win, social media a game to win.

  It's all like how many like you can quantify points and put yourself on a rank.

  48:58

  Yeah, there's in looks maxing, there's there's the the PSL scale and that's like their version of the one of ten scale.

  But it's it's it's it's really interesting how it's done where a 5 out of 10 is not average, like a 5 out of 10 is like top 80th percentile or something.

  49:15

  And like 8-9 and ten are basically unobtainable.

  It's very strange, but it's like there is this kind of quantifiable, almost like logarithmic curve that they had.

  It's like, I actually don't know what the actual plotting is, but it's like, it's not like it's not like a 5 is population mean, at least I don't think.

  49:31

  No, it's definitely not population mean.

  Yeah.

  It's that the whole game of like optimization.

  It's yeah, I will say like that is like parts of and I'll be.

  From from my own like personal experience, like parts of looks Maxing were back in the day were like seductive.

  49:53

  It was interesting.

  It was like there is something I can do right?

  There's a game I can play.

  I never.

  Like I did anything crazy.

  I was like, OK, whatever.

  But it was like, if I do this thing, then this little thing, like the little being able to tinker with it and have it be less like the universe will bring people together.

  50:09

  I was like, no, I don't like that idea.

  I was like, I can't, I can't hold on to that.

  Like I can't work on that, you know?

  Do you do you know about the game or is that is that like before your generation?

  Have you heard about the game?

  No, I don't think so.

  50:25

  OK, OK.

  I mean, that's such a broad.

  But now I'm thinking now everything is making sense.

  Well, back in back in my day when I was in college, there was a book called The Game written by Neil Strauss, who was like some some writer and he.

  50:43

  Vaguely familiar, but I don't know anything about it so.

  OK, so I guess it was like in the early 2000s, and he was a writer who was like, I don't have any.

  I can't get any women.

  I'm like, ugly and short and bald.

  Like, I don't know what to do.

  So he signed up for this class from this coach called Mystery.

  51:03

  I actually do know this now.

  And it's, and it was like all these different steps of how to play the game and the and The funny thing it now that we're talking about it is like he would those principles were optimizing for how to pick up women in bars.

  51:19

  Yeah.

  It was like, wear something crazy.

  Here's your opening line.

  You should neg them a little bit to make them feel insecure, but also compliment them.

  All of those are the game of literally how to pick up someone in public.

  51:36

  And now we have the game of how to get people to look at you on Instagram.

  Yeah, it's they call it like the online, like the PUA community pickup artist.

  Like that's the.

  Terminology it's actually interesting like especially in like the beginnings and the like the core of the looks maxing community was almost a rejection of that of that.

  51:58

  If you just optimize your game, it'll work.

  I think they're like no, like at that part, like you're, you're you can have terrible game and you can be attractive and it works.

  And there's this like one creator that's it's very entertaining to watch, but he will like he's one like the looks maxing creators and he's like done the looks maxing things, whatever.

  52:19

  And he almost like wants to go out and prove like how like pointless like game is or whatever.

  And he'll do like, cold approaches and he will just, like, do the most crazy, ridiculous things.

  And he'll he'll show a bunch.

  Of times where it doesn't work, but he's like even like, you know, doing like is saying like it'll be like the most ridiculous things like, yeah, you know, I just, I just took a shit in the bathroom, like just shit my pants, whatever.

  52:42

  And some like you'll see the he actually gets the number and it's like, there's this whole idea like it doesn't matter at all.

  And like, I'm like.

  I still think you probably shouldn't say that like.

  That some of those videos are just like, entertaining.

  I'm just like.

  Look good and also have good game that's well.

  52:57

  How did how do?

  How do your friends date now?

  I mean, it's all on apps, right?

  Or.

  So that's a great question.

  It's something like I've like personally, definitely like thought through a lot.

  Like I I mean also like sample of like my friends, like a lot of them went to college, right?

  53:18

  Basically the majority went to college and a lot of them met someone in college.

  Maybe they met multiple people maybe and some of them maybe aren't in relationships now, but like they've had those long term relationships.

  A lot of them also like, you know, college I went to, it's like a pre professional, whatever.

  53:35

  It's like I went, I went to Wake Forest, NC like it's a, it's a decent school.

  It's not Harvard, but it's like a top 30, Top 40.

  So they have good tracks.

  So a lot of them went to cities like Charlotte or New York City where it's like they also went with other people they knew who knew people knew people.

  So the social kind of scene continued.

  53:53

  And you know, I've actually like on my kind of the second channel where it's like, I just talked about things I find interesting.

  I actually talked about like some of my worries and concerns about dating apps and kind of like the thesis was like, OK, the very beginning, the idea of like dating apps being like there's a world where dating apps are a big net positive where it's like you have your circle of where you meet people through clubs, social interact, not like nightclubs or whatever, like shared activities, social interactions, kind of like the way that people do it pre Internet, right?

  54:26

  Where it's like, that was how you had to meet people and there wasn't the same dating issue.

  And then the whole idea is like, OK, well, dating apps, a lot of them optimizing for location like that is kind of the quantifier.

  Well, dating apps will allow you to have a greater pool.

  Like you have your pool and it expands because you add in these dating apps that allow you to find out of network people in a reasonable radius.

  54:47

  So that thesis would have been fine.

  But what I'm noticing is like, if you don't have and like for me, like right now, it's like I don't have a big community with where I'm at and I am striking out like crazy.

  It's, and I don't know how to reverse engineer.

  55:02

  And like problem with dating apps is like I, I, I've kind of like tried to, this is at least my thesis.

  I want to hear your opinion on this.

  My thesis is essentially like, OK, if we're looking at dating apps as a big portion of how people meet each other, we want to like, let's go back to the other ways you'd meet someone.

  55:21

  If you had a, if you had a friend of a friend, there was that trust transfer that was that inference, that extra information you got of their friends with my friends.

  And if I like that friend, then there's you can kind of infer the some characteristics or some level of that person.

  Like we would at least be 1° away compatible at a minimum because we have that 1° connection and are they attractive, right?

  55:43

  That's another thing.

  Another one is, you know, in like, let's say you meet each other at the gym.

  You know, that's kind of.

  Weird to go to be like it can be weird to go to people run club or shared Pokémon.

  I don't, I don't know, like all these different things like these hobbies, right?

  Not only do you see the person have some interaction right, some social interaction before, not only do you have the shared experience like OK or shared interest, but also quite often shared interests being self selected groups.

  56:10

  We talked about this before have other traits that are also.

  In common I mean the gym one, it's like.

  If you're going to the gym consistently then in theory you're potentially A regimented person who sets goals.

  Not always right.

  You might just be super crazy on this and everything else is a mess, but it's like you infer a lot more information and then also the final.

  56:30

  Thing is like.

  For attraction, I don't know the split on this, but I have to believe that it's something like not negligible.

  I feel like there's some people where it's attraction at first sight.

  I feel like there's a big swath where it is attraction over time.

  Like there's at least an anecdotally, like there's, you know, I was, you know, in a friend group mixed like gender friend group, which is always great because if people you know, you can, it's, it's fine.

  56:52

  It's it's a good experience.

  There's one person, I didn't think that she was like ugly or anything, but I just didn't think anything that much of it.

  After a year out of like seemingly out of nowhere, I was like, whoa.

  And I feel like think about at the workplace, which also is hard when you own your own business because it's like, that's not an option.

  Better not be for me.

  57:08

  But at the workplace, why is there such high levels of people meeting each other there?

  I think, and part of it has to be by just like brute force of being in the same space again and again and again.

  It's like you almost like that pattern.

  That recognition, their face, becoming comfortable almost makes it more attractive.

  57:24

  So if you go to.

  Dating apps, given all those things that I put out there, dating apps, not only do they essentially just optimize for one thing because you're looking at these photos quickly.

  Yes, you can put your interests, yes, you, but no one in that quick calculation is really doing that.

  The only thing I really think that those extra quantifiers and dating apps do is they basically will pull you out of the pool.

  57:45

  If you say something, if there's something that would be like I'm not going to like this person because of this reason like then that will pull you out of the pool.

  I really think those things only will kind of reduce.

  And the biggest thing is like, OK, how do they look within a microsecond?

  Most people aren't really, well, they're they're saying no pretty quickly.

  58:03

  Like it's, it's like it's it's algorithm feed.

  It's like swipe away from video.

  It's not good.

  You'll give another profile a little bit more and then 10 seconds.

  You'll swipe, so you'll give it 10 seconds of attention.

  Not only is it just compressed down to initial like attraction, which is an important like in deciding that first date, it's factored in everything else as well, but it's also removing that attraction over time, that situational attraction, which is also real, like physical attraction.

  58:28

  It's not like, well, I've learned that they're really nice, therefore I'm not attracted to them.

  It's like, no, they're really nice and they're comfortable and then all of a sudden you feel attracted to them or you weren't necessarily before.

  That's also eroded away.

  So now it's just like one thing and then the data like the one thing that like the looks Max.

  58:47

  There's actually circling back to this quite often reference is this idea of hypergamy.

  So this idea of hypergamy is a an uneven skew between men and women.

  And they have these kind of charts where very simply, it's like reading of the like the total mate value let's an out of 10 scale.

  59:08

  So it's like men and women one through 10 and they're kind of like their models.

  They show is like basically if you look at all the women here, it's like they, right.

  All them.

  Don't need to do men.

  It's like almost like a triangle where it's not straight lines or like kind of like that.

  59:25

  It's like all the women will be in this kind of upper quintile like 0 down here.

  Well, the men will be like, like it's a little bit more like that.

  So you have that that imbalance.

  Dude you get a swipe swipe all the time.

  And if you look at dating app data, it's somewhat accurate.

  59:43

  I think the problem is like, that's not as it's like there's so many situations in real life where it's like, yes, you might not be that attractive, but the other traits that are scientifically proven to be relevant factor into your total.

  Like sometimes maybe you're not like that attractive, but you're super smart, nice and really tall.

  1:00:01

  It's like all those factors can sometimes get you like on attraction level, wouldn't it wouldn't match up.

  But dating absence, it's so compressed.

  That view is correct within the world of dating apps, which it becomes a little scary where that becomes the only thing.

  And then there's also a big mismatch of more men than women on dating apps.

  1:00:19

  Of course you're going to have a skew that doesn't fit.

  It's just like.

  The math You can't have 1:00 to 1:00 if it's in a primate like a You know, for all intents and purposes, A monogamous society, right?

  You cannot have if there's a disproportion of men and women by a good degree.

  1:00:36

  You cannot have monogamous 1 to 1 outcomes.

  It just mathematically wouldn't work.

  Well, you of all people should know one of the main reasons why dating apps is just like going down the toilet and destroying everything.

  1:00:52

  It's because they are an app.

  They are a company.

  They are.

  They're incentivized to keep you on the app, right?

  So I there was actually an insider, forgot exactly who it was.

  1:01:07

  Like I forgot exactly which one, which probably hinge anyway, Can't say it, but they are optimizing their algorithms to match you with people that you're not going to marry and fall in love with.

  They have so much data on us.

  1:01:24

  They certainly can do a better job, right?

  But if you find someone you love match one, you're off the app.

  The the recurring payment subscription model incentivizes that they want to optimize for like lifetime value, which is long term session duration.

  1:01:41

  It's like if you saw a video, you're like, this is such a great video.

  I'm never going to watch videos again.

  That's not a thing.

  But like, you know, then you're going to be encouraged to do more.

  It's, it's interesting, like in my, you know, company work, I work with a lot of companies, a lot of them happen to be kind of start-ups.

  So I know a lot of founders that are.

  1:01:57

  Dating app founders, which is a kind of a dubious space to go into.

  It's very hard to have one of those work successfully and like one of them.

  It is, it's actually quite interesting.

  They're still around.

  It's they will go through your contacts and only show you people who are like one.

  1:02:17

  It's almost like LinkedIn, like first degree contacts people you know directly it, but the big thing is people of people you know, to almost mimic that.

  That's what Hinge started, I think.

  I think, I think Hinge or some another app started like that.

  Yeah, the 1° of separation kind of thing.

  1:02:32

  Or.

  It Yeah, they they they must.

  They probably didn't.

  Realize the swiping pool would be too small if it wasn't locational so they're just like it's location because or you can set your location to whatever, but it has to be some degree connection because that was like an element that was important.

  1:02:50

  And I also know another dating app that would like the whole idea is they're going to use like all the data, like you talk to it like you talk to like this, like this AI thing for like 5 minutes to learn as much about you.

  And then they're trying to be more of a matchmaker than a dating app where it's like, you will pay us to make this match and facilitate this.

  1:03:08

  And that's where we get the money.

  And the whole theory is like, I'm not, I don't have a recurring subscription to incentivize you come back again and again.

  None of them have taken cultural storm, but it's like I've seen the dating apps cropping up trying to be OK.

  Clearly people are starting to get fed up with the solutions because there is a crisis, a loneliness crisis, a dating crisis as these apps kind of consume more and more of the ways the people in theory could match their kind of incentive models being misaligned.

  1:03:35

  And then the whole thing just like you can't really structurally fix it as well as like a big issue that people are like, it's also you want to reject it.

  And it's kind of like I it's there's all this like and like memes on the Internet of like, you know, I relapsed and re downloaded Hinge, right?

  It's like, it's seen as like, oh God, I'm back on here, right?

  1:03:53

  And it's, yeah, it's tough.

  It is kind of like soulless and mechanical.

  And sometimes I think like, do I really want to tell my kids like, and it's some people met great.

  Like I'm dating out because like, it just is another way to meet with people.

  If it was just another way, whatever.

  1:04:09

  Sometimes as like the romantic as sometimes I, I, I tend to be.

  I'm like, do I really want my story that I tell kids that, you know, this algorithm matched us and thought that we're optimal At the end of the day?

  It's a small detail, but sometimes I'm like, like, why can I just have it be?

  1:04:24

  The most common story that's like that's.

  The thing too, it's like by that time it's going to be just expected, so who cares?

  But it is a shame that, I mean, the, the main mechanism when people are dating now is literally incentivized to match you with people that you're not going to end up with, right?

  1:04:41

  So it's just like, it's funny because as you were talking about college, then from the traction research that I've, I've read, the number one predictor of matchmaking falling in love is physical proximity.

  1:04:58

  It's they looked at, they looked at dorms and looked at college students who dated who it's who's next to you in the dorm.

  It's like that attraction over time.

  Yeah, Because.

  I mean, that makes sense because you were.

  You were trying to assess like them as a partner and you're making an investment right, especially women.

  1:05:16

  I have to make an investment like you don't know how this.

  Going to turn out disproportionate investment.

  It's actually interesting research on like why women get the ick.

  It's because it's like if you choose wrong, you have a significantly bigger burden that you're taking on.

  1:05:32

  The investment is disproportionate.

  A man can ejaculate and then leave.

  And that is like the least, right.

  But like women, if they get pregnant, you have nine months of childbirth.

  And then in theory, we're not species that our kids pop out and then they figure it out on their own.

  1:05:49

  Other species might be like, some species are like that.

  It's like there's a massive parental investment guaranteed from, you know, the women, right?

  So.

  And if we have more data when we hang out with you, right?

  Like for what you know, 1 attraction is like fine, that's one heuristic.

  1:06:05

  But then whether they pay on a date is another heuristic.

  And hanging out with them, if they're nice to you over time, when things are right, you're just gonna get more information about that.

  So I mean, just hang out with people.

  I have a question.

  1:06:21

  Bring your job.

  I have a.

  Question to propose to you 'cause I saw this recently and I kind of proposed this in a YouTube videos like an open question like what impact will this have?

  You know, as, you know, one of like the, you know, one of the factors of like, cuz there is difference in like what is important for attraction for men versus women, right?

  1:06:37

  There is like a lot of substantial difference there.

  There's some overlapping, obviously, but there is different waiting at a minimum where you know, you know, resources are very important for men, right?

  Or it's very important for men to have resources on average.

  Of course, it's like, well, I met my husband like it's like, OK, like there's I'm talking about like the averages, the recent job reports came out and it was very, I don't know if you saw this, but in like the last quarter of the job gains, this this number is actually, it's going to sound false.

  1:07:11

  It's correct.

  I triple checked it 90%.

  Ninety 8% of the jobs went to women, 2% went to men.

  Of the new job gains, you're seeing the college completion rate, which as long as college shows an indicator of future like the like men, like the kind of the income gap.

  1:07:26

  It's like that's still true for like the other generations, but especially Gen.

  Z.

  That's almost no longer true.

  If not, there might be an inversion.

  So like the total aggregates again and still make more than women like no question.

  But there's almost an inversion now with Gen.

  Z, which just like built into our wiring, built into like women's wiring, right.

  1:07:45

  And also culturally, you know, show of resources and having those resources is a subconscious and also to some degree conscious like determine like determining for like partners.

  And I wonder if the men having more resources than women as as as that becomes rarer for younger generation, Do you think it will be an even worse skew in the matching?

  1:08:07

  Like do you think that culturally we'd be able to shift fast enough?

  Do you think our hardwiring, our DNA that barely changes every thousand years would be able to the subconscious that dictates so much of what we do?

  And we think it's this whole idea of like, you think you have total control, but you know, it's, it's like, do you really, right.

  1:08:25

  I mean, you might have some, I guess, but like a lot of it is based on your subconscious wiring and then you rationalize it consciously, right?

  So will that be able to shift or will that actually make the kind of the skew and the will that make matching even worse?

  Right.

  Like I, I don't know, it's like this is an extrapolation to a ton of future events.

  1:08:43

  I'm like.

  It's it's just a.

  For like a for food for thought type ponder.

  It's not an actual like prediction.

  So you can't do this.

  I mean, the question is the the question that we're asking is like, what can men do to attract women and get a a partner, right?

  1:09:01

  Are they smashing their jaw?

  Are they making money?

  Most up till now, men still think I got to make more money in order to attract to to show them a good partner, right?

  Like that's that's.

  It's been true for a while.

  It's been true.

  For a while, it's hard to shift women now could get jobs and it's now changed like bread.

  1:09:21

  The question of who is the breadwinner is now fluid.

  And that I think that's really thrown people for a loop because then guys go then what do I do?

  What is my purpose?

  And I've, I've actually talked about this in past episodes of this podcast because my former Co host and I would just be like, guys are not getting it.

  1:09:42

  They're still trying to optimize for salary.

  And it's like, we don't need that anymore.

  If men think about like in order for them to be a good partner, they have to demonstrate that they're going to be a good Co parent and a good father, right?

  1:09:59

  Back in the day that was like, you're making, you're the only one making the money.

  And so like you've got to make a lot of money now.

  It's different now.

  You're still in the role of protector, like you have to protect us, but we need different kind of protection, right?

  1:10:16

  We don't need you to be like getting into bar fights on my behalf and being able to buy a nice house, right?

  We could do that ourselves.

  And so I don't know, you know, I'm, I'm biased and I think that it's just, it's more about demonstrating the qualities of being able to protect this person in, in situations of crisis and in situations of like, you know, high stress, whether good communication, willingness to show up and work hard for the, for the wife and the family.

  1:10:53

  If you don't know what you're doing and AI takes your job, do you have the ability to figure it out and adapt?

  Like are you honest and responsible?

  Right.

  Those are all things that I selected for.

  But think about this, I would think about this instead of income.

  1:11:11

  Do you watch, have you watched the Aliens movies?

  Do you watch Alien?

  Have you watched Alien before?

  I don't think I have, but keep going with that for the sake of the audience like.

  OK, do.

  You know the metaphor I'll try to follow.

  Are you serious?

  You've never watched Alien like?

  There's.

  So many.

  There's a long list of movies that I get looks at for not watching.

  1:11:29

  I have a long list I need to catch up on.

  I know a bunch of niche random stuff, but there's a lot of like normal things and normal people things.

  I just said like like.

  Alien Romulus the the one just came out, you know, all right, Connor, you gotta watch those movies because.

  That'll be my homework.

  It's an allegory for motherhood.

  1:11:45

  Like Alien movie by mother.

  Do you?

  Know the famous alien like pops out of the the stomach.

  Yes, you know that scene where it pops?

  Out I'm I'm aware of it I've seen like social media, I've seen clips I've not sat down and watched the movie, but I.

  You know the, you know the scene.

  OK, OK.

  I have so.

  1:12:00

  This is what it's like to be a woman dating.

  So I'm like Connor, like you're now a woman and in order to have children, which your mother wants you to do when all your friends are doing it and you know it will be great.

  So please.

  Do it, grandkids.

  1:12:15

  Yep.

  Yeah, everyone will be happy.

  But in order to do that, an alien's going to pop out of your body in a bloody, screaming mess.

  And that is the beginning.

  Like you're, it will pop out of you and you will have to feed it with your body immediately and make sure that the spaceship doesn't crash.

  1:12:39

  So you have to steer the spaceship and you have to feed this thing and your body is exploded.

  OK, that's what it's like to have kids.

  You're, you're a capable woman.

  You can steer that ship and have a alien pop out of your body.

  Like you can do it all.

  1:12:54

  However, I'll give you an option to have one copilot to help you deal with driving the ship, dealing with this thing coming out of you.

  Like you get one person 1.

  1:13:10

  You got to choose.

  Well, right That that's what it's like being a woman.

  You basically like, and I I say that as like an allegory, like a funny metaphor, but that's literally what happens, right?

  Like.

  Yeah, it seems pretty 1 to 1, like you're basically out of Commission for at least six of the nine months at a minimum.

  1:13:30

  And you could.

  Physically, emotionally, and.

  Then you're out of Commission for theoretically multiple years.

  And then it's like all, all of those things.

  Yeah, I'm always like, thank God I'm gonna do it.

  I'm like, I don't.

  Have to do that.

  Yeah, but picture picture yourself saying like I'm going to have an alien burst out of me and I have to pick one person to help me with that.

  1:13:51

  That is that those are the qualities you're you're optimizing for.

  And the tricky part is that we're not exactly short yes, income to buy good ship yes, someone who is, you know, capable enough to drive the ship, but also like can take on the alien while you're like bleeding and like, you know, like damage, right, Like who's not going to be mean to you in those moments, right.

  1:14:18

  So it's each generation is like we might have better ships or whatever you want to keep going on this metaphor, but like it's being a protector and like partner in that knowing that that's fucking crazy what women have to go through.

  1:14:34

  So you so just being nice is not enough.

  Being hot is not enough.

  Being rich is not enough.

  But are are you going to take all of those qualities and help that woman when she has a, you know, like an alien bursting out of her chest?

  1:14:51

  That's what we're looking for, yeah.

  And and and one thing I think like one kind of like question that came to my mind is like in the pre screening before considering like let's go on a date and figure out romantic like if that's like let's try each other out.

  1:15:07

  And then also in, it's like being able to show some of those traits, some of those things you can only show over time.

  Is probably why proximity is so big, but a lot of those are like there are ways, there are slight little signals.

  There's also signals that imply the opposite, but those are very hard to demonstrate like very quickly.

  1:15:28

  It's like a lot of those really important long term hair bonding, you know, kindness, like competence resources also doesn't just mean you optimize for money and kill everything else.

  It's like you have the, you know, the resources to, you know, raise a child, which is very expensive and to operate a decent ship, right.

  1:15:48

  Also, you know, it's like some of those are easier to show off the bat.

  Some of those are really hard to show off the bat.

  So I think a big like, you know, a big question.

  Maybe some people like that kind of like looks Max and community would be like, well, I am those things, which sometimes when you're so deep in that rabbit hole, it's like it's warped your minds.

  1:16:07

  You actually aren't those things.

  It's that whole idea of like, you know, I'm the nice guys.

  Usually the person is like, I'm the nice guys actually, you know, very filled with like anger and rage that makes them not the nice guy, which, you know, makes that complicated.

  But you know, kind of the not the rebuttal, but the question of like, you know, I, I can see why that would be.

  1:16:27

  Makes sense for long term pair bonding, but if you can't demonstrate.

  A lot of those skills early on or those traits early on in the initial selection process or even the first second date, do you get 1/3 date?

  Does that continue?

  You know, more of what's present Are the other signals that are important but don't show the full picture.

  1:16:45

  And it might be like, well, if I'm being weeded out because I'm not strong in the others, but strong in these that are shown over time, like what do I do?

  I think if we were to figure out how to find an easy metric or heuristic for those qualities that we're talking about, Oh my God, what's going on?

  1:17:05

  If we're able to find out how to show that and have people work towards it in a very methodical way, then we'd be billionaires.

  So think, think hard about it.

  But yeah, I mean, you're right that all of these things actually take time to learn the.

  1:17:26

  Biggest thing we've lost is proximity.

  Like that's kind of thesis I'm pulling from this is like, yes, I, I said like I was like, well, a lot of those trades appear over time.

  Well, that's proximity.

  Right.

  It's like.

  Losing proximity as a big.

  Don't hang out with each other, you know, hang out with this person.

  1:17:45

  You're able to tell like over time they will come into periods of pressure and stress.

  You'll be able to almost stress test their maturity and problem solving skills under difficult situations.

  And there's a lot of those in childbirth, right?

  In addition, it's like there's other signals that are important are still there, you know, but it's almost like someone might become holistically more attractive over time because the other signals that are very important in that calculation almost start to to bare themselves and you can then factor them in.

  1:18:16

  And then that person is like a much more obvious partner.

  And I feel like the fact that we've almost gone away from being able to show those like the proximity being wiped away from a lot of this has, you know, made these calculations.

  Not only is it like this kind of feeling of like I can't get a date or all this kind of stuff, but, but also I worry as well, not just from like the, the, the men's side because like it's like, yeah, like there's not as much like magic in that end.

  1:18:44

  But I also worry from like the women's side of like, if you're not able to get any of that data and you know, it's hard to break up with someone, it's easier to stay with someone, make it and like just be like, I'm just, I'm it's part of the relationship.

  Like relationships are hard.

  Not that I would know, but I've been told that it sounds right, but it's it's like you might conflate, you know, you didn't have enough information.

  1:19:10

  Now you have reason to think it's not a good partner with this is just part of what happens.

  I wonder if because of this, almost like compression of your data when you enter something because of the lack of proximity is going to result in even worse, like long term, like pair bonding, like that's going to go down.

  1:19:26

  Like it's already going down.

  Like might be a suboptimal matching, which I think it is a suboptimal matching.

  Therefore kind of the new nuclear family unit of like societies like built on at least the United States is like very built on that premise.

  And the story behind it is that nuclear unit.

  It's like those are going to be even going down even more.

  1:19:44

  It's going to dissolve more because the foundation was it's a less accurate gas going in.

  Well, then there's.

  Two potential solutions.

  One, we find ways to hang out more right, like the proximity and being in person should be like more of a thing, which there's some more like.

  1:20:01

  In person event, kind of like, you know, movement towards or two for us to figure out in this uncertain space and world.

  What are some of the heuristics of a good potential father of my child, right like and optimize for that.

  1:20:22

  For me personally, it was someone who's reliable, right?

  Like when, when my husband says he's going to be somewhere, he's going to do something, he's going to do it, right?

  Like I was, I was sick these past couple days and my husband got up and he, he put my son down, got him to school.

  1:20:40

  And I was like, Oh my God, thank you.

  He was like, I wanted to be a dad.

  Like this is fine for me, right?

  So someone who's reliable, someone who could pick up the slack.

  And you know what?

  I think the nice guy thing, this is the whole thing.

  But the nice guy thing, especially with the insults, I think it's totally misunderstood because I think whenever you hear like I'm a nice guy or nice guy spin.

  1:21:04

  It blast.

  Nice, yeah.

  Nice is like, not what women like.

  You might be sneaking calculating right?

  Like super bad, right?

  Like the movie.

  Like have you seen the movie Super Bad?

  1:21:21

  OK, that's a classic you must watch, so I did not feel you on that.

  Movies like that, movies like that is like, oh, look at the nice guy and I watched recently 500 days of summer, right with all these like classic like this is a nice romantic guy.

  1:21:37

  Why isn't he getting laid?

  It's like because he's not actually fucking nice.

  He's he spent, they spent the whole time thinking about themselves and how to get laid and how nice they are drowning in their own sympathy of themselves.

  They're like narcissistic and like kind of ugly and like the hot girls.

  1:21:56

  I'm like, that's not nice.

  That's weak.

  Nice is someone who goes, I'm here, I'm respectful.

  If you are not nice to me, I'm going to push back on you.

  But you're right.

  Like we, we don't want weak.

  We want, we don't want just like the underdog.

  1:22:14

  We want someone who is respectful and kind of considerate and empathetic and thinks about other people besides himself.

  That's with.

  Me though, I don't know like.

  Yeah, no, I I've seen kind of like nice is like I'm not meaning aggressive off the bat.

  1:22:30

  And a lot of times it's like this, a lot of like being nice is just like a tool to become closer to someone, a tool because you want more.

  Like it's a I definitely.

  See.

  That that kind of difference there and.

  1:22:47

  You know what I think I, I, I think would be interesting for almost like let's do let's do let's do a live case let's do me, I'm gonna do a live and it's recorded it's a consulting session live on here because.

  1:23:02

  On one of the channels like like I have this like 1 channel where it's so fun.

  It's like this is like long form view.

  So it's like almost like 100,000 like in the last two days, just like long form videos.

  I talk about a lot of these topics of like, you know, dating markets with like this kind of thesis is like the actual like economics, like jobs, all that kind of stuff.

  1:23:20

  General philosophical topics of like frameworks you can use given no, given that you know that you're going to like die at some point of like regret minimization, thinking like, you know, all these kind of things, right.

  And then I also kind of like talk about like in the dating stuff too.

  1:23:37

  It's like the, the like in my case too, because I'm like, this is a diary channel.

  I'm just talking about whatever I want to.

  So all right, I'll give you the, the I'll, I'll give you the details, I'll give you the symptoms and then you can give me a prognosis.

  So wait.

  Wait, wait.

  We're doing it now.

  Or we do it.

  Or you want.

  1:23:52

  To do it right now.

  For no wait.

  OK, OK, OK.

  Or should that be a third video?

  Because that could be, I don't.

  Know, I don't know, I don't know how much how it depends on how deep you want to get into it.

  How about this?

  Why don't you give me a snapshot and then we'll we'll go into it and you give me more of the case.

  1:24:11

  I would do a case consultation next time.

  OK.

  Give me a little.

  OK, so super high level I've, I mean, since I was a kid, like I was always like a like a, you know, a Romeo type as I was like, like, like very like in my head about that.

  1:24:30

  When I went to high school, it was something where I went to like one of these boarding schools.

  So it was like I, I went for free, but it's like cost 60,000 a year to go there.

  So it's like billionaire kids, Upper East Side tough environment ended up eventually making good friends.

  But if I'm counting like just trying to talk to someone like sliding in DMS or something versus actual like and including full conversations and trying and the trying, I think there's a big emphasis around that.

  1:24:56

  Maybe I was trying wrong, but it was like, oh, and 15 like it was like striking out again and again.

  There's all, I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that, you know, then in college it was like, OK, like I had some, you know, I had more experiences there, more interactions where, you know, a handful of them were like casual, but I've always been like the relationship like I've always like I've seen all my friends around me, like they every single one I know is either in or has been in a long term like partnership and whatever.

  1:25:25

  I'm like, it'd be really cool to experience the world with someone, like doing some cool things.

  I'd love to do that with them.

  And you know, I'd sometimes go on some dates and it was it was a weird situation and I don't want this to it's going to it's going to come off weird, but it's like it's also important for the case.

  1:25:42

  It would be situations where like one of the date, like one of the dates I this girl, I wanted multiple dates with her.

  She picked me out cold in a bar, like I have no idea how to go to people.

  And like we had a mutual friend, her friend's like, hey, my friend over there pulled you out.

  Go talk to her.

  1:25:57

  Like she wants to talk to you, right.

  So like, and there was cases where sometimes they would, they would slap like they would make the I was like, this is awesome.

  Like, or if I, you know, kind of made the first move or the food like, oh, do you want to do this or something?

  It actually had a very high success rate for probably multitude of factors.

  1:26:17

  Social media stuff is doing better.

  It's still kind of weird to some people that in college is very strict social like the the fraternities are here, the hierarchies and like so some of it was weird, but a lot of on paper it was better.

  But I like whenever I go on a date, like or whatever, they go and excited and it would just fizzle out.

  1:26:34

  Like the more that they talk to me and the more that they got to know me.

  And I would like to think that it like, it wasn't like narcissistic trades or like being like not caring.

  Like I was like very structurally like, OK, I got to make sure that they talk 60% of the time or whatever trying to ask questions like, And the second to most recent thing that probably because towards the end of college it was like kind of this idea of like, OK, this is kind of disappointing, right?

  1:27:01

  It's like I'm, I'm, I'm making progress, but I'm not where it's like, oh, now they actually want to talk to me.

  But as soon as they do, it's like, damn, it's just me at this point.

  You reduce all the other elements like Ouch.

  And then there was this this one girl very nice.

  Like I think looking back, it's like our true like NTH degree compatibility.

  1:27:19

  Probably wasn't that a hype, but it was it was great experience.

  And like she was, I was a senior, she's a sophomore.

  So she had a couple more years at, you know, at college and we met like the final semester and it was like super nice.

  And we're like, well, we should.

  I was actually at the end of it gonna like ask her.

  It's funny.

  I was like, Oh, we should talk like because she was going abroad or whatever.

  1:27:36

  I was actually going to be like, I know this could be hard, but I want to try something.

  And I let her go 1st and she was like, you know, I still want to see you.

  But I'm like, I if I'm abroad, I can't like commit to anything.

  I was like, OK.

  But over that summer before she went abroad, I went to I went to her house and slept over at her house multiple nights, met her parents.

  1:27:55

  She went to my house.

  Like we went on trips together, like went to New York texting all the time.

  She went abroad to Australia.

  And I was kind of like, OK, well, this is going to be the signal of like, you know, if this falls apart here, then OK.

  And she was basically just like, you know, once I'm back from abroad, like she actually once when she was abroad, she like called me drunk and it was like 9 in the morning for me for a flip side or whatever.

  1:28:16

  It was like 11 in the morning for me.

  And she was like, no one else is like, like you.

  It's like I'm promise when I'm back, like I'm all yours.

  She was drunk when she said that.

  But you know that that goes in your head.

  You're like, OK.

  And she wrote me over 5 letters that were sailed across the seas, right?

  1:28:32

  So I was kind of thinking.

  Well, everything about this super relationship, but she did.

  She was like, it's not technically it's like, OK, so then we get back New Year's or in Boston, I, I could almost feel from like almost like the intensity and velocity of text over the previous month of like December started to go down.

  1:28:50

  I was like, it's almost like I was like, there's almost like something wrong.

  And at the end of the time there, I kind of knew like it was a, we had a great time.

  I was like picking it back up and she was like, yeah, I don't think I'm ready for relationship.

  So that is almost stuck with me of just like it's like on paper, like I'm like, sometimes it feels like on paper it should be going well.

  1:29:14

  And then I'm just like, I don't, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

  And then there is like the other detail and I told you over text, I'm actually fine in the full video to bring it up with like the, you know, like the the I don't, I don't think they call it Asperger's anymore.

  I think it's like autism spectrum disorder level 1.

  1:29:31

  So it's like that formal diagnosis, not LAR ping, right?

  It's like that's formally a part and it's like, actually I got it later.

  So it was like I could look back my life and be like, OK, that's why those things OK, cool, good to know.

  But sometimes, like people ask like, well, was she into you?

  1:29:48

  What were the vibes she's giving off?

  It's like, what the fucks of like, I'm like, can you describe that to me?

  They're like, you know, I'm like.

  Dope.

  For the longest time I was pissed.

  I was like, I don't know what that means and.

  There's a case where I went on a date with this girl.

  Actually, like I, I.

  1:30:03

  She was in my Spanish class for two days.

  I thought she was really pretty.

  I never got her.

  Name.

  Never talked to her and I was like, damn, like and then she transferred to a different class and school was big enough.

  I just didn't see her again.

  She wasn't like I wasn't at social events neither were she.

  So like I didn't see her.

  I saw her in LinkedIn two years later.

  I was like, that's her name.

  So I just went to her Instagram.

  1:30:19

  I was like, this is crazy and random, but I we were in class together two years ago for two days.

  I just think you're really pretty.

  I'd love to take you for.

  Dinner.

  And she said yes.

  I was like, this is awesome, which I'm like those things like the opportunities.

  Were like they could happen and I was on the day I was like, OK, I guess 60.

  1:30:36

  I was like going to ask her a lot of questions, broad, whatever, and I was like, this was great.

  Like this was nice.

  Like I was like.

  OK, cool.

  And I meet her friend.

  Because we had a mutual friend.

  Turns out I didn't know this until I was like, oh, I didn't know we had this mutual friend.

  You know it was.

  At the bar and the mutual.

  Friend was like pretty drunk and I was like, hello, She's like hi Connor.

  1:30:54

  I heard the.

  Date went terrible.

  I was like, terrible.

  It's like, oh geez, I did not clock that.

  So I was like, oh geez.

  So I think I think it's like a little bit of like probably not like the perfect fit for a it's, it's, it's, yeah.

  1:31:15

  It's like, I think that probably factors in a bit as well of like, I have like pretty crazy blindness to some of those things.

  OK, if that is your high level summary, we definitely need to have a whole session for this.

  I also tend to go long, so.

  OK.

  That could have been compressed a lot more, but so yeah, that is.

  1:31:32

  My, my high level summary of like, I was going to ask you what your question is, but I'm, I'm guessing that it is what what the fuck do you guys?

  Yes, it's like all these experiences I had didn't work out and I don't really know why.

  1:31:50

  And the whole, you know, the, the whole like nuances and intricacies of social interaction sometimes escapes you.

  So having rules is it, it's seductive.

  1:32:07

  But dating is often like the vibes thing, which really what that is, is a bunch of small rules, like done very quickly, right, that you just intuit, but you don't have that.

  So it's a mystery why those didn't work out.

  Is that the question?

  Or is it like, what do I do from here?

  1:32:23

  Like how do I date now?

  I would say it's both of those of like prognosis and then yeah, how to, how to, you know, also like, yeah, how to how to like go from there.

  It's like, OK, well, I'm like, it's like I'm, it's like, I get it.

  1:32:39

  Like I'm 24, I just turned 24.

  It's like I'm still young, but it's also like, I don't know, everyone around me has at least had like a true, like almost had a long term relationship.

  It was like it was the label away from being.

  So that was just annoying.

  It's just like you can kind of say it, but it's also, it's defined as not to me, it still feels like it's a no.

  1:32:58

  It's like, yeah, some of my friends are single, but they've been in long term relationships.

  Yeah, it's like they haven't all, they're not all of them now, but they've all like had that experience.

  It's almost like it happened before.

  Therefore there's a decent chance it'll happen.

  It'll happen again, like it happens to me, right?

  I'm just in an in between period.

  1:33:14

  For me it's like I have no proof it happens.

  Yeah.

  The whole like it'll happen when you least expect it or these things will just happen.

  It's like not as it's not really comforting because I'm like, like based on your experience, these things have happened before and then they just happened again and I'm like kind of have that baked in, right.

  1:33:32

  So yeah, it's like, that's like.

  What do you do?

  Like what do?

  You like what's?

  What went wrong and what do you do?

  Yeah, those are like the two big ones.

  I mean, the major one, the the biggest one that jumped out of me is you need just 100 more of those.

  1:33:49

  Like that's a difference between what you just described to me and all the people I know, including myself, who've had like, relationships.

  Is that experience that you've had?

  We just had 20 more.

  So how do you increase the bat?

  1:34:05

  Like how do you increase more shots on goal?

  Like, yeah.

  And you learn from that thing, too, that I'm trying to, like, figure out.

  Like how do I actually, like, get in those kind of spots?

  And I think being in Miami is kind of a tough position.

  Yes.

  It's like, I think that's part of it as well.

  And I'm, I'm here for a little bit longer.

  1:34:20

  It's like, good for business reasons, good for tax reasons, like for a little bit longer.

  I'm gonna be here.

  But I don't have long.

  Term plans here because I also think Miami is a very self selected group with who's there and who's in that dating pool.

  It's a nightmare so.

  It is and we could talk about in our in our live therapy session.

  1:34:36

  Unofficially, we could also talk about what kind of partner you want, because that matters, right?

  And I think that I think, you know, when we talk about this looks maxing group or like what do men do?

  It's kind of they, they kind of talk about it like I just need a, you know, I just need to be on the top of the hierarchy to, you know, but it's like it's going to be a lot easier once you know what kind of family you want.

  1:35:01

  Like what do you want to teach your kids?

  Right?

  If you want to teach your kids how to get BBLS and Miami is the perfect place now.

  Sorry.

  On that too, it's like almost getting yourself in the opportunities where it's like it's like thin versus thick markets of like more people who kind of like fit into those like trades versus not.

  1:35:21

  It's like for me at least, it's like I, you know, I I want to be like attractive my partner, but I found that like that tends to matter a lot less than me than it does to all my friends where I'm like, Oh, I want them to be like cute, but it's like almost I find someone who's too.

  1:35:37

  This is a weird thing.

  I can't really explain why, but like someone who's too like on the average scale, like too much like they're like a nine.

  I was like, oh, that's almost like I, I almost like am turned off by that, I suppose.

  Likely not going to be cool.

  It tends to be almost be a signal for the other things that matter a lot.

  1:35:56

  Like I I really care about.

  Like I want to enjoy talking to them when I'm 60, Like, and I also like most of it's going to be talked in many ways.

  Like I want to hold a combo like about like things like this and random things and like be able to like have like crazy like because that's like the things I like to like I care about the most.

  1:36:13

  And then, you know, it's so I want them to like, you know, they don't have to like the same things as me.

  They just have to be an interested, right?

  It's like interested in thing.

  It can be totally different things than me, but it's like I can become into a conversation when someone is into something because it's like, oh, that's that's that's appealing to me.

  1:36:33

  It's like strong interest in things.

  How?

  About this, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm interrupting you on purpose because I feel like we're going to get into this in the.

  Yeah, actually let's let's not go too too deep because this whole point.

  I will challenge us to come up with a couple of heuristics to extract heuristics from what you're quote doing wrong versus like what what to optimize on.

  1:37:01

  Yeah.

  And if we could get a couple rules for that, it's gonna be hard, but if we could get a couple rules for like, what should you do?

  And then we could test it out.

  A. 100% yeah.

  Episode 4 when I have a nice relationship that that would be a great episode.

  1:37:18

  Four or that can be what I.

  Or I could just cheat.

  I have a ton of like single nice girlfriends I could introduce you so.

  I'm all for cheating so.

  Not like you know.

  You know what?

  I mean, well, this was awesome.

  Great.

  You're the best.

  I can't wait for our impromptu live therapy session.

  1:37:37

  And it's it's interesting.

  I I didn't think that we would go down.

  I was thinking about looks Maxing.

  I wanted to talk to you about that.

  But.

  And like, why men are struggling.

  But like, it is interesting how we talked entirely about dating and attraction.

  Yeah.

  And like, that is really, really hard for guys.

  1:37:53

  And I, I was thinking like, oh, is it education or jobs or AI?

  And a lot of that is a proxy for like, how do I get a woman?

  How do I get a family?

  OK, well, let's.

  Partner back and.

  Let's solve your problem and see if that that.

  1:38:09

  Would be awesome.

  Selfishly, that'd be great.

  So that'll be good.

  Episode 3, all right.

  Little helpers.

  Subscribe and.

  Subscribe and also leave your questions or your own experiences in the comments because I'm really curious when people listening to this, do they resonate with it?

  1:38:24

  Do they have they found a solution for themselves?

  Like I'm I'm curious about what you guys think so but TuneIn next time for finding Connor rules to look to what partner Max boyfriend Max.

  It'd be girlfriend Max for me.

  1:38:41

  Well.

  Girlfriend No.

  I think it'd be the thing that you're optimizing for, but then look.

  Yeah, be the so girlfriend Max, the thing you're optimizing.

  For relationship Max.

  Yeah, I guess really keep it simple like relationship Max and more people can watch.

  Find a cool cool thing to to hashtag or something like that A. 100% all right.

  1:38:58

  Have a good night.

  Bye bye.

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  1:39:16

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  1:40:13

  Thank you.