Ep. 153- Interview with Agatha Peters: Navigating Narcissism Across Cultural Lines

Aug 6

What happens when cultural expectations of family loyalty collide with the reality of narcissistic abuse? In this special episode, licensed clinical social worker Agatha Peters brings a fresh perspective to this complex intersection, drawing from her personal journey as a Nigerian-American and her professional expertise working with clients from collectivist cultures.

For those raised in communities where family honor and respect for elders are paramount values, recognizing and addressing narcissistic relationships presents unique challenges that go far beyond standard Western approaches to mental health.

We explore how narcissistic parents in collectivist cultures can weaponize community expectations, creating situations where victims not only face abuse at home but also community reinforcement of harmful dynamics. This creates a devastating cycle where victims are gaslit not just by their abuser but by entire communities who view their complaints as dishonoring family or tradition.

Most powerfully, Peters shares how becoming a mother transformed her understanding of her own experiences. This discussion offered us profound insights into healing while honoring cultural identity. Subscribe now and join the conversation about supporting loved ones through their mental health journeys.

**If you or someone you love is a victim of narcissistic abuse, book a free call with us or join the KulaMind community to get the tools, expert guidance, and peer support you need.

Resources:

Check out Agatha Peters' book: Trapped in Their Script: Reclaim Your Life from Narcissistic Parents & Cultural Expectations

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers. We are going back to a topic we talk about a lot, but with a very different lens, and we have a great guest for us today. Her name is Agatha Peters. She is a licensed clinical social worker in Washington and Oregon, trained in CBT, mindfulness and EMDR. She's got a book called Trapped in their Script, written for adult children of narcissistic parents. So this is the topic that we are returning to, but here's the sorry, here's the twist. So this is for especially those from collectivist cultures, where family loyalty often overshadows individual well-being. So, drawing from her experiences as a Nigerian-American psychotherapist, agatha offers guidance on embracing one's identity while respecting cultural ties. I'm excited for this topic because I have a patient this is very who is. This is like super relevant for. I'm gonna thank you so much, agatha, for coming and talking to us about this yeah, it's so nice to be here.
Agatha Peters: 1:15
Yeah, I've been listening to your podcast, like I told you guys this morning, and I just love it. Now I'm gonna have to subscribe and continue through it. I just love it so much, so, yeah, well, I hope so.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:27
And Kibbe, this is something, this is a topic that I feel like would super resonate with Kulamind kids. So you want to talk about how cool I can help yeah, before we dive into this super interesting conversation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:42
I have so many questions for you, agatha, but I just want to mention to anyone out there who are struggling with loving someone with narcissistic personality disorder. Maybe they're really affected by narcissistic abuse or emotional abuse in their relationship with their partner or their parent or sibling. We're here for you. Check out Kula Mind community K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D. In our community we're teaching skills to really navigate these mental health challenges in our relationships. So we teach setting boundaries, identifying narcissism and narcissistic abuse and the effects on you and your mental health and how to advocate for yourself. So if you're interested in that, go to our website, kulamindcom, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom and also put the link in the show notes. But thank you for letting me announce that. But, agatha, can you tell us a little bit of how you got into this topic, like tell us a little bit about your background?
Agatha Peters: 2:41
Yeah, so well, I spent 14 years of my life growing up in Nigeria, um, and transit transitioning into the U? S. The first place we landed was Oregon. So, um, very different cultures, huge culture shock. Um, but things were done much differently than in my culture, obviously. And I got into therapy after my gosh.
Agatha Peters: 3:12
Well, in college I remember being around 19 or so, and my professor at that time had said, well, you would have to check your own stuff and your baggage first before you can help others. Well, you know, as you, my culture, people don't really go to therapy. But I thought, well, that sounds interesting. Like, yeah, I would have to. It makes sense to have to do your own work before you try to help others. So when I sat on the couch with a therapist that was non-black I am black, being Nigerian Um and uh, I was looking at things from a white lens, definitely, and uh, yeah, having to call out my parents, and uh and uh it for the first time I got, I felt heard, but I was not ready to at all unpack. I had no idea what therapy was until that point, and she put names on things that I definitely was not ready to address and it took me a while and I wondered why, up until being well writing really until a few years ago, after my master's, having sat with plenty of clients did I actually and actually having my child?
Agatha Peters: 4:44
I think having my first born really made me understand that my parent is um, a narc, a narcissist and um, and I think for a long time being.
Agatha Peters: 4:54
We're in this profession like, we want to fix things, so for you to tell me I think that was one of the things is just not being able. You help people but you can't help your own parent like, or even help yourself go through like how it just was really hard, um, so I knew, for me, dealing through it, a lot of people and I also got a lot of clients that were experiencing the same sort of challenges in their different cultures that were primarily collective. Where there is my, yeah, my Indian clients, my, you know, mexican, asian, you know, name it like so many different people in this sort of cultures, but we're so obligated to family loyalty, we're so expressed on us. There is community that tells you you have to do things this particular way and if you fall away from that, you're doing something wrong. So you're doing something wrong, so you're the problem. For the longest time I thought I was the problem. Um, and yeah, that's how I got to writing.
Agatha Peters: 6:11
So to help people do it it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:15
So you had experience working with a non-black therapist and a lot of times we think of that as sort of essentially problematic in certain ways because, um, especially like white therapists bring a lot of potential bias but it sounds like in some ways this was helpful to you. What was that dynamic like?
Agatha Peters: 6:33
I think this was helpful to me. I I think she did work that helped me. I think she was helpful to me in, um, my well, not addressing my abuse, but actually, um, acknowledging maybe, or starting to at least on, like that, having that, that blindage that I had on for so long, starting to open my eyes a little bit, um, but I, you know, being an immigrant, we're just happy to get help Like it did not matter to me. I know what you look like. To be honest, that that's just I, just I was happy to get help. Whatever help looked like, my insurance covered it. Then I just I had to pay a couple of dollars here and there with copay and I was so young, so just just get it being in the presence of help. I think we look at things differently, I don't you know, maybe in that sense of I might be different from, for, maybe, a Black American that does not come from that same background. I hope that makes sense of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:43
Yeah, no, it's just interesting to think about, like how, how these dynamics can unfold, because in some ways I could see how it could be helpful to kind of say, like here's, you know, in this culture, that behavior, you know, looks so it's such a contrast that, um, we can see that contrast more clearly, like and maybe this behavior isn't quite appropriate, or, you know, compassionate or whatever yeah, and at the other time at the other set. It might be harder for that therapist then to understand that collect kind of collectivist culture absolutely.
Agatha Peters: 8:15
Yeah, I see what you mean there. Yeah, from in, in my cultural lens. Yeah, I thought, well, you have no idea what I'm going through, right, like there is that. You know complete differences there, but my goodness, it felt good to be seen for the first time Like someone even seeing me and seeing the struggle and pain and it not being so much in my head anymore pain and it not being so much in my head anymore.
Agatha Peters: 8:49
I think she used certain languages that were probably triggering to me as a Black individual, like that was the hard thing there, but nothing that she did intentionally and as a therapist, you know. But I think then versus now, I know what I need from a therapist and I did try seeing actually another white therapist. I live in Oregon. There's not much options there. Another white therapist last and actually doing my writing process Um, and I just knew I didn't.
Agatha Peters: 9:29
I was not that same 18, 19 year old then and at this point I've lived in America for so long and, um, it just brought back a lot of things for me that I I couldn't really it. It just felt different, it felt very different. So I gave it at least eight sessions, like I would with my, so my clients keep going, cause she was so skilled to her own. Her expertise was narcissism and an EMDR, which is exactly what I needed. But I, it was really hard for me and it also partly why I wrote the book for therapists too, to see how to help their clients through this different lenses, cause there's just yeah, it was hard to connect with her in that way, which I know she's phenomenal and does a wonderful job, but that cultural part was really difficult.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:27
Yeah, what translated cross-culturally between you and your therapist. Like what did your therapist or you identify as like the effects of having, you know, growing up with narcissism. Like what did you notice was like something you were struggling with yeah.
Agatha Peters: 10:47
So I think for me, the huge thing there was. First, my narc was so bad that there was a lot of suicide for me, like suicidal mutations, um, we talk about the spectrum from here all the way. I yep, um, just individual was in like this huge, um, uh part that it affected my mental health a great deal, um, where I would, yeah, um, just really uh, think of ending my life so frequently. So in so many ways that first therapist opened my eyes, but it was going through that. So that opened my and I think even with this therapist I saw last year, I kept needing validation, which was an odd thing too, because even though I'm in the field, I know all the things, but the culture is that piece of it is your fault constantly, right, like, there is this guilt, there is all those things.
Agatha Peters: 11:57
I kept needing validation. I would even my mentor that I've known for over 20 years and, sorry, I've known for um, over a decade and um, she's been a therapist for 40 years has even validated me. My gosh, you're not wrong, this person is the worst of worst, like, but it still wasn't enough. I'm like you're saying that because you know me. So, um, yeah, it's the suicidal part. I you know that was a huge thing to not know. It's not, it's just not a depression or something that is causing this, but more so environmental um and um. The individual that I was with at the time, um, yeah, it was.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 12:43
It was not good the what was the kind of ideation a result of this person? So it's so. It sounds like they would. They would behave really poorly and then blame everything on you, and so it's kind of progressive devout like degradation of your self-esteem and yeah, but also the community aspect of it.
Agatha Peters: 13:08
There was so so known in the community.
Agatha Peters: 13:23
So you, you know, when you do have a narc who is a parent or a guardian, the mask is on. In the communities, they are the most like, they're better, they're essentially perfect in these people's like. They show up, they're great, so you want to see that you also. That also makes you feel like it's your fault, you're doing something wrong, like, why are they not showing me that much love? Why are they not showing up for me in that way? Why are they, you know? So that constant, you know, and they also tell you it's your fault.
Agatha Peters: 13:50
So there is that you don't love me like these strangers. And then you know, um, you're also confirming that. You get that confirmation at home too, that, yeah, um, this is all you Um, so there is that constant. And then the communities also, it was almost just coming together and like, yeah, you, you know you do bad things because this pain to your prayer, you do, you know, feeding a lot of lies that were not there. But again, they needed that. Um, this person is would be described as a vulnerable narcissist. So, um, they needed that. There's a lot of that sadness and just, you know, um kind of thing and, um, it's poor me. I, you know I'm going through this, a lot of that. Um, so then you know, then you're getting calls, or you're being pulled away in meetings, or you know in gathering, like what why? Making them cry when I was, like I wasn't aware that they were crying, I think.
Agatha Peters: 14:55
You know um. So, yeah, there is a lot of that um, that just fed that. You know um, narc, in that way, um, so so much blaming, not just from that person, that individual, but the community, the. You know it. For a child, it would be like stepping into a school ground knowing you're gonna face your bullies, right, um, and this is why, again, it's so hard within these cultures, because we're, we're seen as a group. So, and when you're, when your guardian or parents say something about you, it must be true, right, like that's when you go to the hospital and you take your kid to see a doctor, they ask hey mom, hey dad, what's good? So it must be true. So that's in so many ways, I don't blame them because that's what's, that's what's set out, that's that's what they you know, even though it's complete false, but that's what um they, they have to believe, um. And then there is also the respect of the elders, the. You know all the things that come up and you just yeah yeah, I have this urge to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:14
I'm like trying to figure out how to make this a more bite-sized question, because I kind of want, like a description of Nigerian culture, like what was it like growing up? What is the day-to-day like, who are, who are all these people that define the family group?
Agatha Peters: 16:29
I feel like, you know, day-to-day growing up is just sort of, you know, you have aunties, which is very common in a lot of those collective cultures. A lot of people are aunties even though they don't birth you, but you know that form of respect a lot of people are. So again, that community right, like if you're my auntie, I can come to you or I can. You know, there's beauty in a lot of that. There is, you know, you have people that are always there. You're not alone, unless you're made to feel, you know there can be a beauty.
Agatha Peters: 17:09
It can be beautiful in so many ways. But when it gets problematic is when we have situations like narcissism. And that's yeah, with cousins you grow up with, you know, you might your neighbors, you can just walk in wherever and and all that, um, and I, honestly, when growing up in Nigeria, my, my narc, wasn't a problem. Then it was in, yeah, it was in the US. Um, I went through other abuse back home but that was not yeah, um, yeah, not my narc, and I didn't really, you know, grew up with them in that sort of dynamic Like you would think, a parent, you know, sort of situation, but, um, it was the year that it really when I.
Agatha Peters: 18:15
And then there is this cultural expectations where you have to make it, you have to, you know, there, you know, you also had the opportunity to come. So how do you feel? So then, which we all strive to do, and when you immigrants, you want to do so much, but then that also can be a burden, and even more so when you're immigrants, you want to do so much, but then that also can be a burden, and even more so when you are dealing with someone that is a narcissist. They can use that and export that in so many ways. Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:43
How does narcissism in parents show up differently across cultures?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:49
I resonate with a lot of what you're saying and I don't know the specifics, but I, you know, and I come from a Chinese culture where it was, you know, like the elders, the parents, you know, you listen to them no matter what. And I was just having, like the other day, having a conversation with a family member about you know, the um, uh, a situation where someone who was older, um, was like hurtful to the younger person, like said something hurtful, and the attitude was like well, they're the older ones like, you know, it was fine, you know, just you apologize, right, like as a younger person, you, you deal with that, that. So it's like even thinking about narcissism and right now in america, like we're talking all over the place about how they're narcissistic parents, um, but I wonder if it does it look different if it's in a different culture, where where narcissism in parents and older people is like accepted, right, like right, like the hierarchy, the entitlement, like they, they have entitlement, right, like just from being a year or two older.
Agatha Peters: 19:58
I was meant to say auntie, like this idea of like you're already all right, they do, they are special if they're like older and your parents.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:05
So it's like is it, does it look different if it's in a different culture, or is it like the same, but they, we just don't like it as much here.
Agatha Peters: 20:13
Well, I think it does look different and I, in my book, I really dive into. Well, first of all, is it narcissism, because there are different mental disorders and you know what that looks like. And then, second of all, if we're dealing with cultures, that really we think about parenting styles. There is authoritarian parents and authoritative I think. Between those two, we think of an authoritarian, which is much more. You know, they're strict, you know, but so you know, this sort of styles, I think you know, makes a huge difference in these cultures. You know, a lot of us in those cultures are raised by authoritarian households Like you.
Agatha Peters: 20:55
They already set up your path. You're going to be a lawyer, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be I was a doctor, you're being a doctor, you know. But why is that true? Where is that coming from? Is it coming from entitlement? Is it coming from I want you to be better? Is it coming from I want you to be better? Is it coming, you know? So this you know. And if you do not meet those expectations, are you still?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 21:17
loved Right.
Agatha Peters: 21:17
Are you still cared for. And you know, when I do look at these cultures in and you know some of that can be even abused like that we well, it is abuse not just in Western cultures that we see the spanking and all of this stuff is added with a lot of these collective cultures and I think it's important to note that the fact that it's just we don't have, you know, you say, go to your room, there might be five people in the room playing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 21:49
There is no, go to your room.
Agatha Peters: 21:56
There is just, we spank you and you kind of. You know there is no takeaway toys. Well, I play outside. So what do you mean, you know? So that that's the layers of where those hash punishments come from.
Agatha Peters: 22:04
Um, in those sort of communities is how I um, I how I look at it, but with that authoritarian style, what I do see is it tends to deviate, just deviates a bit. Or, you know, they get lesser as the kids grow up. You know your mom is not calling well, I don't know, but your, you know most moms are not calling you in those same styles saying did you become this, did you do this? You know most moms are not calling you in those same styles saying did you become this, did you do this? You know the rules are still not sort of rigid. As you grow up, they in fact get lessened. They now and that's the difference right between when you think of the narc and the extension of me you know it doesn't continue through that, so that's you know I talk about through that um, so that's you know I talk about that even more in depth. And then um, in the book, but it doesn't, um, it doesn't follow you throughout, uh, sort of adulthood and I think that's the main way of sort of differentiating it. But then also um cause I've had to figure it out myself.
Agatha Peters: 23:13
But um, also in this culture, is those punishment. How are you being punished? Are you just you left a plate in a you know on the sink and you're being burnt, or you're being hit in the face, like it's? You know? You've seen extreme hash punishment. The comparison of you're not good enough. Or this is the constant belittling of the individual, which I know there's a spectrum with all of that. But those true heart narcs, they don't just don't it's. They use that culture as a sort of a source of getting more and more of that. So you put a narcissist in that kind of cultures, like in these it's. It can be really detrimental. For a lot of these um clients of mine, it's yeah, because, again, if you're whooped, it's okay.
Agatha Peters: 24:14
They don't like you use. Did they use a belt and a bottle or or you know it's. Once a child says, oh, what's? The child years it's okay and your parent is right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:24
You just kind of quiet this, you know, not even um, you don't want to open up to that adult anymore um, it's interesting, like, even with asian clients it's it's um, especially when I even me, growing up in the us, but I will have clients who are from east asia and you know, especially in narcissism, we always, you know, talk about like, oh, the narcissistic parents want you to be successful and they just want you to be on top and achieve. And if you, if you don't reach that success, they're super disappointed in you. They stop loving you. It's very conditional.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 25:03
But if you talk to some of my Asian clients, or even how I was raised, it's like they go yeah, of course it's normal for your parents to want you to be the best and get straight A's and be a perfect violin player, and if you're not, of course you're not as worthy and of course your parents won't love you as much. And I'm like, okay, is is. Is then the whole cultural belief narcissistic? Or we just we just believe in, like, loving your child, no matter what, and that's not how it is. Like, how do you deal with, like that, what you said about if they don't achieve or they don't meet those standards? They're, they're loved still?
Agatha Peters: 25:40
you see, I've seen client. You know you bring that up. I, you know I had a client as um uh, from asia as well. That was sort of dealing with the same Vietnam. Yeah, I think that was it. It was sort of dealing with this.
Agatha Peters: 25:57
You know the thing with us, too, when you grew up within NARC, there is a it's almost as though we there is this perfectionism that we it's, and that's the hard thing is the stuff that they implement in us. It kind of works. There's this forcefulness of you have to do so and you're constantly proving love, right, like there is this console it. You are, you don't stop your education, you keep going and you keep going and it never feels like it's ever enough, right, and but then the thing is you don't really get that sort of love like the other even, in fact never stops If there is your saying the wheel keeps going on and going on and going on. The difference there is in the other home that you described. You hit that accomplishment. You're now a doctor, you're loved, you're praised, you've got everything. The other one you could be a doctor. Heck, you could be a doctor. You could be an astronaut, you could be all the degrees and you still did not hit that Right. So it's never enough, can you speak to.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:19
So I feel like I have a cluster of questions around this point. But, um, it sounds like something happened when you moved to the united states where the abuse actually intensified. So kind of the first part of my question is was there something I know you had said? Like, now you're in the United States, you're expected to succeed. So it sounds like that was part of it.
Agatha Peters: 27:38
The community part too, I think the community, because you left you feel like the lucky one In some ways. It's like you are this, you're lucky.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:51
So how can?
Agatha Peters: 27:52
you have a problem. That's the only thing you have is your parent was hash. Okay, like you're in america be grateful, okay.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:02
So there's this immediate expectation of like you're not going to waste this opportunity. You're lucky, you have no excuse now. Yeah, um, did your, did you, did your narc pick?
Agatha Peters: 28:13
it was that the behavior that they kind of oh my gosh, I brought you to America that was all I heard like I brought you to America. So there is this huge payback to this. Yeah, I brought you here. You know I was meant to do all kinds of things because I brought. They brought me here yeah yeah, it's interesting.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:36
I feel like I've heard from so many like stand-up comedian acts. When they are, when they have immigrant parents, they'll make that point like I'm such a disappointment. I'm a stand-up comedian when my you know, my parents were immigrants here, so that was just I. I was wondering if you could it's. It must be an interesting experience to come from such a different culture and then be placed in american culture, which is so individualistic and specific and now you're dealing with a dual cultural reality can you kind of speak to what that's like for you and what you've experienced from the patients.
Agatha Peters: 29:09
I think, for me personally, I love it because I get to pick and choose what I want to accept in my home and what is not. You know how I raise my kids, I think you know I'm also exposed with more education in the way of emotional intelligence and all these other things. That I'm not that they aren't, you know. Yeah, it's just in a different lens where I can see the mental health piece of well, if people are beat, this is what happens, you know. So you get to choose differently and there is, fortunately yes, I am. I do consider myself, because of all of that, in fact, lucky. Now, does being lucky mean that you don't cry at night and you don't suffer through different mental? Yes, you know, the thing is with the collective cultures and individualistic there, since we're such a group, when one makes it, that means we all make it. So therefore, we all also have this responsibility of what are you doing for your, for us.
Agatha Peters: 30:29
The all Um and that's that's also just how to it can feed a narcissist in that sort of form too, where it's like well, listen, I watched you when you were five years old, a long time ago. You owe me $500 that you have in sets, so sort of oh, I did this one thing, so it can feel like you constantly are working for a community, and so I've had to sort of embrace both to know. Okay, this individualistic part is, it's okay to enjoy the fruit of your own labor and it's okay to figure out how many people you want that fruit to go to, or maybe just you and you're the, the, the humans in your life, um, so, just yeah, navigate that a little bit differently, okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:33
I'm curious when you're working with clients and you're thinking about yourself and navigating people in your family with narcissism, do you I want to say, suggest, because we don't suggest but do you do different kind of work with people who are in collectivist cultures versus, like American, individual cultures? Yeah, because you know, maybe I'm so steeped into the Instagram world and it's all about like, oh, do you have a toxic narcissistic parent? Well, don't talk to them anymore.
Agatha Peters: 32:09
Get them out of your life and I'm like, well, that's kind of hard in these other cultures.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:15
I mean even some clients I've had have are really hesitant to even say or that their parent was abusive, not to even mention what a personality disorder is. They've been like oh, that's of course, they're entitled, they're, they're my mother.
Agatha Peters: 32:30
They're my father, so how?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:31
do you work differently with victims of narcissistic abuse from different cultures?
Agatha Peters: 32:38
Yeah, no, it's great that you bring that up. That was me too, when I was sitting on that couch when I was, you know, 18, 19. Like, how dare you? I want to come across this and, just like you know, fight you for this. This, you know, because there is that protective culture. Like we're protect, there's protection of our family, there's protection of our culture, there's pride in that and in so many ways it's a beautiful thing. Like, yes, just like Americans have patriots, like we have, we also love our culture and you know it's where we came from, is where we are. Like there's a huge, you know, honoring culture. That is, it's just, it's part of us. So to say that that's wrong, it's so difficult, like to, and then you also, you're okay, well, this person had it that way too. They, they experienced this. You know. You know I, you know I went to the home and your mom was spanking, oh, doing this or doing that, but again, narcissist they. It's when the doors are closed that you really see who they are. It's not they might've been spanking them in a nice way when you were there. So you know how I really with culture is.
Agatha Peters: 33:58
I, I try my best to understand, like you know, I, I, I, from their perspective. First of all, I think I get two type of clients that come in. One that already like yep, full-on narcissist. This is the person that I experienced this with them. They've read about it, they, they spent extensive amount of, they're usually very educational and, uh, educated and um, really um, I don't know, maybe they're already parents too and they're like this is. I just don't want this to happen to me. I'm now in a relationship with someone like this how do I co -parent with them All of these things? They've really seen it. They're starting to like whoa, this is happening.
Agatha Peters: 34:42
And then there's another one that might come, another client that might take so long. It could take weeks and weeks and weeks of trying to help them to really get there, versus me naming it but helping them name it, cause I know what that feels like when it's named from my lens but helping them name it um and helping them get there to to identify um, because in so many ways it's so normalized for them that it's it feels like yeah, and then it's often with I have to be perfect, I, you know, I am the problem and um, I'm dealing with depression and anxiety and I, I walk around like shells, right, like there's all these layers, um. So, helping them understand, you know, until you see what it is, it's going to be really hard for us to get to that healing place because you're still walking in. And these are why these cultures are so hard, because you can have, for example, an Indian that is still living with several family members in the home. So when you say, cut off, cut off and go where, like you know, like they can't, we'll set boundaries. There is no boundaries. They come in my room whenever it's just like, yeah, like, what, like, what do I do?
Agatha Peters: 36:12
So I think, for folks, when they start having that breakthrough is actually understanding. Okay, well, see the pattern. Let's start to see. Let's sit with mom and see what that feels like, just for 15 minutes. Then let's sit with someone else and see what that feels like, and we just start to and all of a sudden they're like oh, it feels different, Like she makes me anxious, she makes me, you know, tense, she, she, you know. So they announce her and identify the signs without me saying anything, but they're starting to to get there on their own.
Agatha Peters: 36:50
Um, and then when I, you know, it might be when I sit with a stranger then I start to wonder what are they thinking about? Well, probably because that's, you know, yeah, comes from the narc. But they're like what are they thinking about? Do they like me? Do they not like me? I'm like, oh, you're still doing gymnastics here in your head with someone else, but how does that person makes you feel externally versus you know what goes on in your head? Okay, much more calmer, okay, those kinds of stuff. So we want to find ways that we can get more of that happy medium, like that space of happiness, and eventually you might get to that place where okay, maybe I just needed this family to get reach my goal of being, you know, whatever that goal is before I can get my own place. But I do know that this is not healthy for me, again, without me having to do much, but just sort of leading them in that way, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:54
This. What you said about boundaries is exactly kind of what I'm facing with a patient who knows that she has a parent that's a narcissist. But I think, because of that parent's behavior and also the culture, like she's in this position of being everybody's go-to person for help, everybody's in her business, everybody, you know, has these expectations of her. She feels like she has to be everything for everybody else and this is know, has these expectations of her. She feels like she has to be everything for everybody else and this is like something she wants out of Um, but, you know, without alienating herself from the family. And I guess I'm just wondering, like how, once you've recognized right, like yes, there's a narcissist here and yes, there are kind of cultural forces that almost expand or like compound the influence of the narcissist, like how do you set boundaries within that structure?
Agatha Peters: 38:51
Oh, my goodness, this boundary stuff, it's so it's such a hard situation. I tell you not stuff it's, it's so it's such a hard situation. I tell you not. I mean, I kid you not, because even for me I still struggle with it here and here and there. Um, but I rethink my mental health like, is it worth those.
Agatha Peters: 39:07
You know what you know. But I think, um, for that client is to determine what are their goals, what are their long-term? Do they still want to sit in that mud and feel so destructive? Like are they okay with that? And if they're okay with that, then just sort of help them through it. Like it might just be that we do some deep breathing and we work through the anxiety and we take breaks and we walk outside and then we come back in and then we, you know, we distract ourselves with cooking for the family, or then we, you know, we distract ourselves with cooking for the family or, like you know, get occupied with other things in the home. That doesn't make us feel so anxious or depressed or whatnot.
Agatha Peters: 39:49
But they have to be the one to choose that. We can't choose that for them. I mean, as much as we hate to see them go through it, but we don't want to choose it for them. And if it is, I don't really like this. I kind of want to go and I don't. I don't know where to start. Okay, what seems feasible for you? Like what? Where? Where do we start?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:11
Yeah, I mean this. This reminds me a lot of work with East Asian clients and other kind of clients where you even we're talking to them about their values or their career desires, right, and then you go. What do you want for your?
Agatha Peters: 40:29
life, what do you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:30
what do you, what do you value? And the way we want to do it with our individualistic clients from America, it's like what do you want as an individual? You know, besides what your parents want or society wants, what do you really want? But with these clients who are from other cultures, they go. I just want my parents to be happy.
Agatha Peters: 40:51
Love me. Yeah, yeah, I want them to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:53
I just want to. I will be a doctor, because that's what makes them happy. Yes, yeah, it's like what do you want? Oh, I want to make them happy. So how, what? What do you do when you have those clients who they're? What they want is to make their parents happy and yet their parents have a mental illness or personality disorder that makes them never?
Agatha Peters: 41:13
happy. I mean, I tell you, it took me what over decades to I mean a decade to like um it it, until they reached that point of this. Is, you know, you still talking to someone that has had a master's, that went to all the things that you know, that still wasn't enough. A professor, they couldn't tell me nothing. I would. You couldn't do anything that could have prepared me to what. Leave no, or do whatever. No, I was not in that mindset. I was not ready for that. I did not want that.
Agatha Peters: 41:52
I think for me, what trumped all of that was my kids. You know, I think for your, remember these. You know when you're hoping it. You know, sometimes we don't do it for ourselves, but we have to if they have someone else. So I'm just sort of like the addicts, you know, like maybe it's there, is there is a child to do it for, maybe it's there, you know.
Agatha Peters: 42:16
You know they're doing it for some, because I could have probably stayed in that mod, as I say, for so long and maybe be okay with that, because, whatever, even though the mod was literally destroying me and in fact I, you know, who knows if I would still be here, but that's how terrible, terrible, like how hard it is to leave groups and those cultural expectations. Um, so I, I, I empathize with my clients in a way, like if I couldn't be ballsy enough after having you knowing all of these things, understanding that and I still want it to be so much, you know, I still wanted love, in whatever form. It looked like, you know, even if it looked like control, even if it looked like you know all of these different things, all of these different things, then why do we just think you know we're not God? You just don't sit in a couch and all of a sudden think that person will get there immediately. It might take a while, but I think again, it's sort of like that. What do they do? The ice cream thing where you like lick and you're like, oh, it feels good, it's the hold on to and that feeling of good it's. That was basically what I do with the sit with someone else and see what that feels like.
Agatha Peters: 43:45
Eventually, when you start to want good things you're going to, you know, you you start to feel seen, have, you know, be heard. All of those things start to come. Maybe it's building those different communities, what that looks like, finding a community still within your community that still gets it Right, and I think for us sometimes we forget that there's still people in these communities that can relate to us in this way. So finding that and, um, I think can, can go a long way as well. Um, you know, if you're not ready, I think I lost your questions there somehow, but I hope I answered it, did I?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:33
can I ask how, where you've ended up with this, have you cut off the relationship or do you just approach it in a different way?
Agatha Peters: 44:41
Well, for me. You know I'm there whenever they need me, but I let it where they need me.
Agatha Peters: 44:50
I don't go seeking, I think before I was seeking it, so much so and that just I think that gives them more control in my brain. I don't know, like it probably. But where you know when I say I'm there whenever they need me is if you know, if they all of a sudden called me and said they needed help, which oftentimes doesn't happen, thankfully. But yeah, I lead with that and I don't know it's not for them. Being a vulnerable narcissist, it is really hard for them to hear me as a therapist. I think that's also hard because I there, there are ways that I I talk and maybe it's almost sort of triggering in a way. So they don't want to hear all of that and I don't let them.
Agatha Peters: 46:00
I can say, okay, might have a two-minute conversation, not a one-hour conversation about oh my gosh, you know this, or you know just all the you know terrible things that has happened to their life, that never changes. And yeah, I might not sit for that and dwell with this. You know, part of me would want to fix it. Or how do I help? Because that's what we want to do. We want to help.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:34
How? How did becoming a mother change your relationship to this, like, how do you think about this in your parenting or the way you were raised? Um, yeah, how did becoming a mom?
Agatha Peters: 46:48
influence your thinking.
Agatha Peters: 46:50
I think you know when you say that you, my gosh, I had yeah, I'm going to try not to be emotional here, because I had my little human and for the first time I understood what love like I had my partner and I happily married for over a decade um, the love of my life. But I really truly it. Just it felt easy. Like it felt easy and they didn't have to do anything other than exist. Like really, it was just easy. And I don't expect them to ever do anything other than really exist and live the life you're supposed to or whatever that means for them while I guide them through this whatever life. But it felt easy.
Agatha Peters: 47:49
And I remember needing my narc when I just had a baby and I said, well, I never asked you for anything. Can you do this one thing for me? Just watch him for a day? So I don't know. And that's when I also realized that the love I have for my I could never, never. You know that that yeah. So when I say mine is like pretty high up there, pretty, since, yeah, it just they weren't able to do it, they couldn't sacrifice a day.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but just wow, I feel like, that's when you had a turning point, too is when you had a son.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:38
So yeah, I mean, we could tolerate so much abuse I guess for us sometimes, or just like take it in and then, when you see it, either towards you or towards the kid, and yeah, you know, like it just, you just have a new perspective. When you step back and go, oh, I used to be that kid and I got this kind of treatment, or how could someone look at me at that, that age, and do all the things that I experienced? Right, it just, it just changes your perspective in this interesting ways and yeah, it just makes some things a little bit clearer of like wow, yeah, treat a kid like that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 49:19
Like yeah, I would never do that to my son or yeah, yeah, the same as me, that's.
Agatha Peters: 49:25
I thought, you know, I to me I almost looked at it with in a different way for them to be able to sort of learn how to parent again, which is such an odd thing to think of. I'm going to give you this chance it will be my second to do it right this time. Well, did they fail so big like? It was like yeah, yeah, and I kept trying, I kept trying, I kept trying everything I could, but they just they weren't able, they just didn't care. I don't think they. It just you know, my kiddo would cry and they would bring out a camera to record them and do something about it. Yeah, it just yeah, to laugh about it later or laugh about it during the recording.
Agatha Peters: 50:25
oh my god, yeah, I know it's intense. It is intense, it is Yep, so yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:40
I'm glad you I mean it sounds like you have figured out how to set some boundaries and kind of been able to say to yourself like I will communicate to the extent that it aligns with my values and that's it.
Agatha Peters: 50:57
I think embracing both cultures helped me a lot, and then, I think, also my partner, like you know, and I also got to experience what being you know, being having a healthy parent was like through his own or in that little way, like people make sacrifices. Oh, you do this. You just show up and just love them and care for them. Oh, wow, this is no wonder he's such a well put together. Um, yeah, this is, this is nice, um, so it's not. It's not so cultural Human beings can actually, you know, my, my husband, is Nigerian, american as well, um, but has a very loving parent. Um, just, you know, both his mom and dad, dad passed now is just really just amazing, truly, is Um so seeing parenting in that sort of land.
Agatha Peters: 51:55
Sometimes you just don't get to see when you are in a relationship or grew up with an arc, you just don't get to see what healthiness looks like and understanding that culture can still exist and we% without accepting that abuse that you know we don't have to. So I think he helped me a lot and also it was affecting our relationships Like this. You know he also wants to fix things Like you know we can. Wants to fix things Like you know we can't. We can't fix this person, um, and it's hurting you and it hurts. It hurt him to peel me off the floor, yeah, so yeah, it's like this is not okay, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:55
Well, it's awesome to see someone who's survived this and like learn to thrive through it and and really kind of get a handle on it and their own sense of wellness and boundaries and be able to help others. Um, it sounds like you went through a hell of a time for a lot of years, Woo.
Agatha Peters: 53:12
Yeah, yep, that's why I chose the profession. Yep, that's why I chose the profession. We all do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:32
We want to help others too, in however way possible not to feel the same pain we've had to endure and feel and that's not okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 53:36
Yeah Well, I don't have any more questions, kimmy, do you? No, I think this has been great. I'd love to hear more about your book and how people can find your work.
Agatha Peters: 53:42
Well, my book thank you, Dr Kibi, for asking my book is on Amazon and everywhere. Books are sold online and really it just dives into exactly what we talked about, but even more in depth, of you know, in these cultures, how do you separate, how do you distinguish and really truly know a narcissist? And if you do have a narcissist, how can you get through it and the other side, and and um, or live with them? So, this book, how do you you know, and also helping therapists understand that, especially the ones in this in Western lands, um, yeah, how people in collective cultures are going through this experiences. So, um, yeah, you can get the book anywhere. Books are sold online and reach me through my um website. Uh, beautiful sunshine therapycom. That's where I'm at. The name of my site is beautiful sunshine therapy, and I have an Instagram page too. Amazing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:52
Well, thank you All those in the show notes so thank you so much for this has been such a fascinating talk and topic. Um so really grateful to have had you on. Um, yeah and yeah. Thank you, guys, nice to meet you and little helpers.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:09
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