Ep. 192 Dissecting Antisocial Personality Disorder: What It Is and How It Affects Relationships
This episode explores the complexities of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) and its impact on relationships.
Are you close to someone who's charming but unreliable, impulsive, and manipulative? Dr. Kibby delves into the behaviors often associated with ASPD, a personality disorder that comes with a pattern of violating other people's rights, lack of empathy, and dangerous behaviors for thrill or power. She discusses nuanced differences between ASPD and other disorders, and learn how to navigate relationships with individuals who exhibit these traits.
Dr. Kibby discusses potential treatments, including cognitive behavioral therapy and mentalization-based therapy, and offers strategies for loved ones to set boundaries and motivate change. This episode is essential for anyone struggling to understand a loved one's challenging behavior and seeking effective ways to cope and connect.
Resources:
If you need support with a difficult relationship with someone who has mental health problems (antisocial personality disorder, narcissism, anger issues, BPD, trauma), check out KulaMind. Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn how she can help.
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Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
Hey little helpers. Today I'm going to be talking about the darker side of psychology, specifically antisocial personality disorder and all of its different forms. So if you have someone in your life who you wonder if they're evil, you wonder if they're toxic, and they might be manipulative, they might be charming, they might be dangerous and risky but exciting, and you don't know if you should trust them, well.
This is all signs of what might be antisocial personality disorder. And I really feel like this is a very misunderstood diagnosis. ⁓ for one thing, it's a cluster B disorder. So it's a cluster B personality disorder, meaning that it's one of the dramatic disorders that's really related to narcissism and BPD and and histrionic too, but is not the same thing. And
I do feel like this is an important topic because there's so much talk online, and I'm sure you've, you know, talked with your friends about how do you spot the boogeyman? Right? That's the question that people seem to want to know. How do you spot signed of s of someone who is harmful, who's evil, who's bad, who's someone that you need to cut off? Right? We talk about gaslighting, we talk about manipulation, feeling forced or abused by someone. But we tend to
wanna just call them narcissists, right? It's like it's let's spot the narcissist who is manipulating you and gaslighting you. ⁓ but unfortunately, that's only one type of boogeyman. There are other types, including antisocial personality sort of and seeing knowing the differences can help you spot it quicker. But also, you know, I don't think I'm never gonna be reductionistic and say that you need to just cut them off or you need to do that, this or that, or they're evil or
would make large judgments on them, but we could say the more you know about how they work and how it affects your relationship, the more power you have.
I'll talk about what is antisocial personality disorder, like what is the diagnosis, how it's diagnosed, how it's different from related terms like psychopathy and calcium emotional traits.
I'm gonna talk about how people get to be antisocial, how it develops, and what this means for you as a loved one. Now, if you're listening to this and you have someone in your life who has antisocial traits, behaviors, or is problematic for a variety of reasons, you're welcome to look into ⁓ KulaMind which is my program for helping loved ones of people who are struggling with.
mental illness, addiction, and other kinds of behavioral issues. ⁓ it's KulaMind , K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com. There'll be a link in the show notes and you can check it out and also book a free call with me just to talk through your situation so we could figure out the best way to get you help. So that's a plug for if you're listening to this because you are struggling with someone in your life, you know, get help. It's it's really, it's really tricky. And you might be
You might be wondering because you might feel like your self-esteem is low. You might feel like you're not sure if you're the bad guy or they're the bad guy. you might be doubting yourself. And that is all a common feeling when you are close to someone with antisocial personality sort of. So before I dive into what it actually feels like to be with someone like this in any way, ⁓ let's just
get the diagnosis out there. Let's let's really like lay out what antisocial personality disorder is. So antisocial personality disorder again is a personality disorder. That means it could only be diagnosed ages 18 and up, but we often see the signs earlier as and they're called conduct disorder. ⁓ it's called con a conduct disorder under the age of 18. And that looks like
hurting animals, ⁓ hurting people or damaging property, stealing, doing illegal acts, and not feeling ⁓ that much guilt over it. Similar in adulthood, but it just is worse, right? It's ⁓ ASPD is really a disorder of violating other people's rights without remorse and in an impulsive way that causes a lot of damage.
So it's not anti-so social in a way that we think about like, I'm not going out now. I'm I'm shy. I'm introverted. That's antisocial. No, this is like someone who actively acts against other people, who actually is quite harmful or neglectful of other people and for their own gain. And that's something that I want to be clear about here. ⁓ because sometimes sometimes it seems like when you think of antisocial personality disorder, it's like,
Do they get pleasure out of hurting people? Is it like a sadistic thing, like Joffrey from Game of Thrones, if you remember that? ⁓ yes, but not always. Usually what's the research shows that what's going on with ASPD is ⁓ it's almost like, I like to think of it this way, an extreme goal orientation. Like these people really want the goodies, and they're willing to stop at nothing to get it, right?
So they want money, they want power, they want escape, they want thrill, they want a dopamine hit. And they'll do anything to get it. Even things that other people that would hold other people back, like worrying about how it affects others or thinking about the consequences or laws, right? So they're like, ⁓ all of those are barriers to what I want. I'm gonna blow past them and get what I what I want. So that is, you know, what I when I think of ASPD, that's that's what's going on.
So the actual diagnosis is based on having three, at least three of seven of these traits.
One is failure to conform to laws or social norms. So this is like repeatedly breaking the law, whether they're caught or not. So if there's a rule, you know, come coming in early or coming on time to to something or not stealing or anything like that is is consistently broken. So these people with ASBD treat rules and social norms as optional.
Right. So they they're like, I'm above it. I just I just blow past it. I I conform to it if I don't want to get caught, but I don't treat the law as something that I should really intrinsically respect. Right. So there's a lot of stealing, there's a lot of ⁓ drug use, there's a lot of ⁓ violence and aggression and other kind of rule breaking behavior. Second is deceitfulness, and that is
repeatedly lying or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. So this is kind of like compulsive lying for no reason, right? So there's some people who lie out of shame, right? Some people who lie because they want to cover up something about themselves that they feel would get in the way of being accepted or loved by someone. Right. So it's a real sh some people lie out of shame base.
Antisocial personality disorder, it's not so much about the shame. It's not about hiding something that they would feel will get them rejected, but it's more about like getting what they want or getting power. So they don't feel ashamed. They're just like, This is the tool, this is the strategy that's gonna get me what I want. ⁓ faking people's identity, making up stories, ⁓ telling people different things about themselves, right? spreading rumors, right? So deceit is a big one.
The other one is the third one is impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. ⁓ this can get confusing because impulsivity can look a lot like ADHD or any other kinds of impulsivity where people just jump to an action without thinking. They make a decision based on what would be fun or what's exciting or what they want without thinking of the consequences or how it's going to play out. So it's lack of planning. And
In ASPD, you could see that happening in all different ways. Like they might get violent and aggressive, right? Just like fly off the handle and and hurt someone else. Or they might do things that are impulsive and sh and shows that they don't think they don't have a long-term plan. They're living in the moment. So one example of that is someone who keeps changing jobs, like messes up a job.
and then just bounces to another one or just moves somewhere and doesn't tell anyone anything, right? So it's just it's it's really almost breaking what normal people do to build long term life, a lifestyle, and they just jump from one thing to the to another. Often it's because they feel bored or they feel like ⁓ those kind of long term commitments are restriction, right? They're living for more of the the dopamine hit that they are for something long term.
Gratification. The fourth, ⁓ the fourth symptom is irritability or aggressiveness. So this is people who fight. they might physically or emotionally, but they are always getting into fights. They're always quick to anger and quick to hurting someone else. Or doing or revenge planning, right? Like seeking revenge on someone else, really just like fighting against others, right? Five is
reckless dis reckless disregard for safety of self or others. This is people who do dangerous things. They drink and drive. They have risky sex without protection and they sleep around. They ⁓ some of them are just, you know, thrill seekers. So they might just do ⁓ extreme sports, for example. But things that really that might be hurtful for someone else, but that they
⁓ do anyway without thinking about the consequences or the potential ⁓ harm it could cause someone. Six is consistent irresponsibility. So this is always failing to live up to long-term commitments. I guess it feels a little bit like impulsivity, but this is more like ⁓ really betraying other people a lot, but betraying ⁓ any kind of obligation or commitment or loyalties that they have. So they might
not show up to a job if they don't feel like going, or they ⁓ they steal money or they embezzle money or they ⁓ make promises that they br that they break. Right. So this is being irresponsible but as a pattern consistently over their ever since 18. And then the last one is lack of remorse. For all of these things I just described, ⁓ they might do these
dangerous and impulsive actions, but they don't feel bad about it, right? They don't feel guilt or they don't feel ⁓ they don't feel remorseful. I feel like the lack of remorse is pretty tricky to really assess because ⁓ people who are who have antisocial personality disorder and are smart are able to fake it really well. They're able to like look sad because they know that that's what get them out of trouble.
So it really is trying to assess like, do they actually feel bad or guilty? Do they feel that empathy of like that other person's pain that I caused gets to me emotionally, right? I feel bad about it. There's a lot of people that might act out and do all of these things I described, you know, dangerous things, risky things, but then they feel really bad about it. They don't want to hurt someone else. Or
they have a period of regret where they're like, my gosh, I I can't believe I did that for someone. No, people with antisocial personality disorder, if they have this trait, ⁓ seem to justify it, right? They don't actually intrinsically feel bad that someone else is hurt. They might feel bad that they were caught or they were blocked from something that they want. So that is more of like the remorse that you might see, right? But you could also see this kind of lack of remorse, lack of empathy.
If they don't have the same empathic response to someone else in distress. There's actually really cool research showing that people with ASPD don't have the same amygdala response, so don't have the same emotional response to faces that look sad or scared as other people. So it doesn't affect them as much when other people are in pain, especially if if it's something, if it has something to do with them getting what they want. So
Those are the specific traits of ASPD. And I actually when I've talked about this, people go, Well, that sounds like a teenager. Or that sounds like, you know, that that sounds actually kind of normal, or like a lot of people do that or might be risk takers. Yeah. As as with any of these personality disorders, it's all on a spectrum, right? If if you have a period of time where you do something dangerous, or you have a gambling problem, or you know, or you are impulsive and change jobs.
That might not be someone who has antisocial personality disorder, but it is if you have at least three of those and it's really severe and it's a pattern, right? It's it's someone who almost has like like doesn't take in and doesn't abide by the rules of everyone else. Now, even as I'm saying that, the tricky part is that our culture really
idealizes this, right? It's kind of loves our culture, especially American culture, they we love our mavericks. We love people who break the rules, especially people who have the talent or ability to. Like I always think about maybe this is just because I love watching these kind of shows, but you know, we have Tony Soprano, we have Walter White from Breaking Bad, we have pretty much every ⁓ crazy
startup founder, right? You have like Elizabeth Holmes and things like that. The people who are so focused on getting what they want, getting their reward, that they're willing to step on other people.
And even in this description, there's a lot of variability, right? With people who have ASBD can look very different. So there is, so a lot of this is based on observable behavior. And I'll talk about ⁓ other parts that are not observable, but this is based on how they act, right? Are they violating the rights of others? Do they lie? Do they ⁓ do dangerous things? Do they take drugs, right? Are they irresponsible? This is all stuff that they do. Well
Some people, so some psychologists will say that people like AS people with ASPD who are not good at it or not savvy ⁓ are the ones who end up in jail. They are hot-headed, they're impulsive, they ⁓ they get arrested and they end up in jail, right? They get in trouble. But there's another type that might be successful and charming and really good CEOs, right? Like ⁓ Americans, American psycho.
with Christian Bale, which is so good. That's a really good example of, I mean, it's not real. He's he's not a real character, but ⁓ that kind of type of person who's just like really good at working others, right? And is able to ⁓ get ahead by violating other people's rights, right? Like thinking outside the box and ⁓ taking risks and ⁓ going after, you know, going after what they want.
Everyone else be damned kind of thing. In in that movie they he's actually ⁓ murdering people, but ⁓ this could be ⁓ often people who have ASBD can actually be in like finance or business and be very, very successful, right?
So ASPD is more about what they do and not what is like inside. Now, there are different concepts that are float that are floating around that often get mixed up with ASPD. And that is callous and unemotional traits and psychopathy. So ASPD is like this is what it looks like in the outside. This is what the person is doing. You have to
you have to act a certain way in order to be diagnosed with ASPD. But then it's like, what is the personality of someone like that? Well, cows un and unemotional traits, and psychopathy, really, it's all blended together. These are more personality traits. It's a tendency to not feel guilty, not feel remorseful, to have
not be moved by other people's suffering and to not have empathy. Right. That's really this this core, like almost antisocial trait that with ⁓ cow's and emotional traits, they they almost like don't they're not sensitive. They don't have the same fear. They don't respond to punishment and they're not as emotionally reactive. So it's kind of like
almost like they're dead inside and the normal the normal ties to humanity or touch I mean this is pretty broad, but the normal the ties of like human connection are not really there and they're more aggressive. They more go after things. ⁓ and that's more of a sadistic ⁓ trait. So that's like callous and unemotional traits. And
Psychopathy too, that's a related concept. All of these concepts are more in in the research and more to describe a personality a personality trait than the actual disorder. So, like psychopathy, similar to callus and emotional traits, that is ⁓ more used in the research than it actually is with ⁓ psychotherapists. Like clinicians don't actually diagnose anyone with psychopathy, but that is a trait that
describe someone who is charming and manipul manipulative and grandiose. So it's almost like this malignant narcissist. They don't have empathy. They don't feel bad also. And they're also impulsive. So people with ASPD don't always have psychopathy, right? They might be impulsive and doing all these things, but they might not have this like darkness,
So to give a couple examples that I'm thinking of, ⁓ there is one person that I dated with ASPD, ⁓ or traits of it. And to this day, sometimes I wonder what the actual di his actual diagnosis is, but I think it's ASPD. So this person, I've talked about I I've talked about him on ⁓ the podcast before around when the whole thing was going down. So it was a lot more.
like fresh and frazzled from it. But the main thing was that I remember feeling really disoriented. I didn't know what was real after being whipped around by this person. And this person was scarily a psychiatrist, ⁓ dated for a couple weeks right before I got together with my now husband, thank goodness. But this is this is someone who
was very on the outside charming, like funny and sociable, ⁓ a little bit too slick, ⁓ but was really was really charming, right? It was really like really likable. He had told me that he had broken up with his girlfriend recently and he was also about six years sober. And we talked a lot about his whole recovery journey and
I thought it was so cool that he like kind of rebuilt his life and then he's just, you know, sober and working on the steps. ⁓ and then we started dating and he said a bunch of weird s I mean, it was all it was always a little weird because he w he would
Making plans with him was kind of strange. Like he would come hang out when he wasn't working, but we would show up in his scrubs, in his Doctor Scrubs, or would just not be available and then say something random like, I was watching a movie and I just didn't want to answer it because it's so embarrassing what I'm watching. It's like just there was just something odd. There was something that just didn't feel transparent that I was missing something.
⁓ and then he I was ⁓ he was showing me something on his phone and I saw a text pop up from his what I thought was his ex-girlfriend and he froze and I was like, What is this? Like are you still talking? And he went silent and he said, She just told me she's pregnant.
And I was like, what? I mean, and then he he told me about how it was, you know, he was with her before we dated and she just came to him showing him proof about how she's pregnant and he doesn't know what to do and he doesn't want to be with her. He wants to be with me instead, and he'll figure it out. And it was just like a really emotional conversation, a really confusing one. And then he said, You know what? I'm going to have dinner with a friend.
Talk it through, talk to my therapist, talk to her, and like figure out what to do. So he left. And for two days I didn't hear anything from him. And I was worried. ⁓ I was like, what is going on? He's not responding to anything. I reached out to the friend he said he was gonna have dinner with. And that friend said, ⁓ Kibby, I'm so sorry to tell you this, but he is a compulsive liar. And ⁓
I haven't seen him for several years. I didn't have any dinner plans with him. And he revealed that ⁓ he actually wasn't sober and he's been lying this whole time. And I was just like, I was beside myself. I was like, what is going on? Who's this person? And so I kept reaching out. It's like, like, are you okay? What is what is happening? And he writes back a cold email that's like, ⁓ please stop, please stop harassing me. Please stop.
reaching out to me, ⁓ stop reaching out to my friends. ⁓ it is final and it's over. And I was like, my God, okay. and it really threw me for a loop because then after I found out all these other things about him, like he almost got kicked out of his ⁓ his medical program, but didn't. And there were other people who were like, yeah, he I we think he's antisocial because he tend to he lied a lot.
⁓ and would do really aggressive things and would deceive and ⁓ and I was like who is this person? Like I didn't see that at all when we were dating, right? It was only a couple weeks, but I didn't I didn't see any of this like huge ⁓ these huge glaring signs of ASPD. Well long super long story short, I actually found out
a bunch of months later that ⁓ he actually didn't break up with his girlfriend at all. That he was fully with his girlfriend and he just started dating me on the side and was lying to both of us. And then when she found out and she was gonna tell me, that's when he ran away. ⁓ and there was a whole bunch of lies ⁓ in addition to that. But
That's an example of someone with ASPD. And I also say that there were there were other like risky behaviors. Like he definitely had a substance abuse issue. He definitely was impulsive. Like he would, he obviously would jump to dating me while he had a long-term ⁓ fiance, actually. Wasn't even just a girlfriend, was a fiance. So that was a sign of someone with I think just pure ASPD, because he w had deceit. He was
He was violating the rights of others. He was violating violating both mine and ⁓ the other girl and God knows who who else. and, you know, it's unclear if he felt remorse. Like sometimes when he would get caught in some of these lives, he would look really sad and be like, I know this is, you know, some you know, something that I'm working on, but not sure if that actually was real or just something that he was doing to try to get out of getting in trouble. So
That's one example of ASPD. I'll give another one that felt more like the ASPD with psychopathy and callous unemotional traits. ⁓ This was in this was when I was working in a hospital, and I won't give the full details because I don't want to violate anyone's ⁓ confidentiality, but there was a young man who was
the the police had informed us that he had committed a murder and shown us evidence for it and everything like that. And so we were really shaken up. This was a young man who was in the ER for something else, like was was e the ER for some other kind of drug-related issue. And so our task was we had to
Talked to him about it and asked to make sure that he knew what he did, what if he was aware of it and what the consequences would be legally. So I was shocked. I walking into this room, I had all these pictures of what a boogeyman would look like, right? Someone who like a murderer, like someone who was big and scary and ⁓ you know, evil. It was just a really polite young man.
Really nice, really smart, articulate, sweet. he was answering all of our questions. He was talking about school and trouble and trouble with drugs. And he expressed, he was like, you know, I'm I don't want to do this again. This is awful. I'm so sorry. and we kept the we kept asking questions to try to get him to admit what had happened, what we learned about.
But he kept saying no. Like he ke he kept like not talking about it, kept talking about drugs and being in school and going to visit someone else in another town and and finally the attending doctor was like, Okay.
Are you aware that we know that you have committed a murder? ⁓ do you know anything about that? And he was like, yeah. Yeah, I did that too. Nothing. No fear, no shock, no like I was I was on pins and needles. I was so scared to talk about like the elephant in the room, right? And when it when
It was brought up. The shocking part to me was that it was like nothing. It was like no big deal. and he did not look afraid. He said he knew what was gonna happen to him. He knew that, you know, he he broke the law and that there's gonna be the consequences, but he did not seem sorry. He did not it it it was as if I said, Hey, you went to the grocery store the other day. He was like, Yeah, I did that.
So that was a that was a a really good example. Like I got up close and personal with someone with really clear callous and an emotional trait, someone who might be a psychopath who has really low empathy to the point where he didn't even see the problem with killing someone else. ⁓ granted, he might have been hiding it. He might have been really good at masking that. He might have been in shock and trauma in in a trauma. So you might have like,
cold because he's blanking out, but the long conversation about ⁓ other things and then he talked about a little bit about the crime and it really just didn't seem like it would faze him as much as it would anyone else.
So that really was like a moment where I got to see what it's like to actually have psychopathy or to be a psychopath. ⁓ research shows that there in people who have those traits, there's less amygdala activity. and there's reduced fear conditioning and lower sensitivity to threat. So they do not they're not shaken by surprises or fear.
They don't learn how to be afraid of things and they're not as emotional, right? The unemotional, cowls and unemotional traits, they have less emotional reactivity. He kind of was like, blank, everything was cool. So that is a little picture of like a more severe type of what we think of ASPD. But people with pure ASPD without a psychopathy can just look chaotic and ⁓ violate the rights, but they might not be as like.
cold calculating and almost like chilling, right? That's kind of like what I picture for for evil. And sociopathy like is a word that is floated around, but it's not actually used by psychologists that much.
So how does someone develop traits of antisocial personality disorder? Well, I was super surprised by the research because it's actually a mix of different things. It's a mix of genetics. It's a mix of environmental factors and trauma. I actually thought that it was a lot about trauma, but it's actually that's only one piece.
I was shocked to find out that ⁓ ASPD is actually 40 to 60 percent hereditable. So that means that if your parent has ASPD, you have a about a 40 to 60 percent chance of developing these traits yourself or having those traits. So traits are passed down, including ⁓ impulsivity, fearlessness, aggression, low emotional responsiveness. Yes, of course.
Again, this these are all traits. So it could look like someone who's just fearless, who just sky likes to go skydiving and is impulsive, but doesn't actually do things to violate other people's rights. But ⁓ it there's a strong genetic component. But also not only does it it does it have a strong genetic component, but there is a lot of evidence that childhood trauma.
Childhood abuse, childhood neglect also leads to ASPD that like plays a really important role. So kids who have that genetic ⁓ vulnerability, if they are abused or they're exposed to violence or inconsistent parenting, or they grow up around ⁓ like p criminal peer groups where they're
it it's like incentivized and it gives them sense of belonging and money and stability to be part of like criminal activity, then they're more likely to develop ASPD. ⁓ keeping in mind that if you that if it's highly hereditable, right? Like if it's it's ⁓ it's very genetically linked, then someone who ha has a parent with ASPD, right, who is like abusive and violent and ⁓
violates other people's rights, well, not only will they pass down the gene to the kid, but they will also probably be an abusive parent, right? So that's kind of like a double whammy. Now, keeping in mind that of course, not everyone who experiences childhood trauma ends up being ⁓ antisocial, right? ⁓ many people could just have trauma disorders. But so you need that combination of
of that the genetic risk and environmental factors.
If you think about it, this was the story of the Joker played by Joaquin Phoenix who ⁓ you it it really gave an interesting portrayal of like we know that the Joker is like pretty much the ultimate ⁓ mascot of antisocial personality disorder.
He violates rights for fun. He is very impulsive. He's very aggressive, right? He does things just to get what he wants, which is like the thrill of things. ⁓ but it that movie shows how he was a victim of abuse as a child and also growing up. And so having that combination of a genetic risk and being abused and being and being violated themselves, that is a high risk for someone who has ASPD.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
So understanding where it comes from can help us understand a little bit more, but it doesn't excuse it or explain it, right? So people with ASPD often have a history of childhood trauma. And some of their behaviors could be a way of surviving dangerous situations, right? If they're in a from an abusive home and they learn to be violent, aggressive, and go for what they want and lie and cheat their way out of things, that might be a coping mechanism. ⁓
And understanding that's a coping mess mechanism can give us some insight, but doesn't excuse it. So the question is what happens if you are in a relationship with someone with ASPD? And I mean, like, what if your kid is showing traits of ASPD? What if you have a partner or a friend who you're like, wait a minute, I wonder if they have some of this? ⁓ and it's tricky because I'm I'm
Probably talking to a lot more people who ⁓ are just confused because their often adult child is aggressive and demanding things and asking for like money or d and they're using a lot of drugs that might be illegal and they don't s seem to feel bad about it. So people are like, Wha what is this? What's going on? It's really hard to tell because there are some emotionally dysregulated behaviors that lead to all this impulsivity. Someone who has
A lot of trauma who ⁓ doesn't have any other way of coping might tend to get really aggressive and scream and threaten other people unless they get their their drug, or ⁓ when their parents try to kick them out of house, they they basically bully them into letting them stay. So it is hard to tell if that is true ASPD or they're str struggling and coping with it poorly. ⁓ but
The thing with ASPD is that
It can feel like you are a pawn, right? You are a puppet and they're like a puppeteer and you don't know what's right or wrong. So that can you know, y you could have that same feeling with a lot of different disorders, like you feel kind of used. But this is a like you you as a human being are an instrument.
And the disorder part is that being antisocial is a is a problem over time, right? That's a really silly thing to say. But when we're talking about getting something you want, like getting a lot of money or power, my first thought is: yeah, it makes sense to do all this stuff. It makes sense to
Become a CEO of a big company ⁓ knowing that it might be harmful for the environment, knowing that ⁓ if you fire a bunch of people, they'll be really ⁓ they won't be able to feed their families. And you gotta have to you gotta be callous on on emotional in order to get those big goals. That might be the case in our society, but human beings and being social are a big part.
Of survival. Right? So if someone is just like, I almost picture it like someone is just laser focused on the goodies, right? They wanna, they they see a casino and they have to go in because the flashing lights and the dopamine hit is like too hard to resist and they will hurt other people and lie with other people to get their money in order to gamble it, right? So that would be like a very ASBD trait. If you're so focused on your goal.
And ignore other factors that are important, like how people feel, ⁓ the impact on others and society and long-term consequences. Well, you might get things in the short term, but that really impairs your ability to build something long term, right? If you are truly I guess if you're like not as good, if you're not like savvy enough, if you're constantly breaking the law and constantly sealing and deceiving, eventually you'll get caught and people will
Would kick you out, right? Like people don't trust you. Getting people's trust and cooperation and being empathetic and paying attention to their needs is what keeps people around and what keeps people helping you to do something. Right? So you might be more willing to make a family with someone who is able to empathize with you than someone who is completely just using you. Now, in our very capitalistic individualist society.
That is a little skewed because people who are like really, really
antisocial, ⁓ psychop psychopathic, they could get a lot of money, they'd get a lot of resources, and that draws people in, right? So it's just an interesting thing to think about, you know, what is the disordered part? What is the problem? Well, in our society, we actually value people who break rules and laws if they do it for, you know,
Because they deserve it or they're good enough to do it, like they're talented enough to rise above the social norms. However, on an individual level, you really feel that breakdown of connection and that can really harm someone over time. That, you know, you could with people with ASPD in relationships, you can there's a couple tells that someone has ASPD. ⁓ and this is mostly from anecdotal experience. One is that
They are often diagnosed with ADHD because they're so impulsive, but on ADHD meds, they actually get worse. So there is a really cool study showing that with fish who were actually had, you know, were bred to have antisocial traits, if they were given methamphetamines like Adderall, ⁓ whatever version a fish can have, they actually get more aggressive and more.
psychopathic, right? They go they go after things more versus if they're able to like weigh out the long-term consequences and delay gratification like ⁓ ADHD medication should help you do. Right. So they actually get more antisocial when they have Adderall. So that's one sign that I'm like, that's you know ding. ⁓ another sign is if someone has really hopped around and
Someone can be really charming. Someone with ASPD can be really charming, really good at getting people to like them, good at getting them on their side. Like they're they're charming, right? And they're able to start new things, start new relationships, ⁓ get people to trust them, get people to invest in them, right? make friends. but a lot of people that I've I've seen with ASPD, they've
eventually their actions catch up to them. They ⁓ lie a little bit too much, they betray someone, they break the law and they get in trouble, or people just get annoyed with them. And they burn that bridge, right? They either get in trouble and they tend to run away if they can, if they are able to escape, they run away and start anew. So if people if you notice that this person doesn't have really long term
responsibilities or commitments. They haven't built anything long term and they constantly hop from one to another and they won't let you talk to the other people, right? They like make excuses why that person is bad and you shouldn't listen to them and it's unfair. But if you notice a pattern of someone always ⁓ burning a bridge and then trying to build a new bridge at a new place that's isolated, that's a that's not a good sign, right? Of course that's not the only sign. It's like so if someone does that, there might be other reasons, but
⁓ it's not like, they're definitely antisocial if they don't have long-term friends. But I've seen with people with ASPD, it's like they're constantly able to start new opportunities, but they don't have a lot of long-term loyalties. So that's something to to look out for with ASPD. And in general, just watching their reactions to other people's emotions.
I hate seeing online the advice of well, if you tell someone that you are hurt and they don't they don't rush to comfort you and they defend themselves, blah blah they're a narcissist. Yes, it is telling when someone reacts ⁓ unsympathetically when you tell them that you hurt that they hurt you.
But really watch when someone, when you are afraid, when you are sad, when ⁓ there's something emotional going on, like a movie or someone else that they care about is having emotions or feeling vulnerable. Just just watch their reaction. Do they feel do they look moved by it? Or do they kind of have this like dead-eyed look? Or does it look like it's it doesn't affect them? ⁓
Do you do they look confused sometimes when there's someone who's like afraid or sad? Or do they even look like happy? Do they often try to ⁓ get power and exploit someone else despite ⁓ the pain that it might cause them? Right. So just like watch to see if they're not moved by other people's distress. That is a sign of a of some empathy deficits, which could be ⁓ a sign of ASPD and psychopathy. So
⁓ those are like just anecdotal signs of ⁓ that that I know that kind of feel like, ⁓ this person might have more antisocial. It's like they are constantly starting afresh, leaping leaping to new, new new victims almost. they ⁓ get worse with ADHD meds and they they don't have empathy. They don't look moved or shaken or startled by someone else's distress or vulnerability. So
People in those relationships, like if it's your partner or if it's your child or, you know, other family member, they wonder, like, are these people capable of love? Can someone with antisocial personality disorder actually love me?
That's a really difficult question to answer.
people with antisocial personality disorder, there is a lot of interpersonal relationship problems, as you can imagine. There's a ton of affairs, ton of lying, ton of substance use that's hidden away and ⁓ uses almost like power over the other person. There's exploitation, gaslighting, ⁓ verbal aggression, ⁓ control, intimidation, right? There's all sorts of stuff, all sorts of horrible stuff. So there's a lot of
abuse and ⁓ domestic violence with ASPD in relationships.
But it's especially confusing when someone with ASBD is has some social intelligence and the ability to charm and manipulate. It's not as clear-cut as do they love me or not, because they might have low emotional empathy, meaning they aren't moved by your distress or vulnerability, but they might have cognitive empathy, which is a type of empathy or like a subset of empathy.
That is involved in understanding what other people are feeling. So they might not be moved by your distress, but they might see and understand when you're distressed. And often people with ASPD use that information for their own gain. So instead of feeling sad when you're sad, they might make you feel sad in order to get something that they want, right? To get you to forgive them or to ⁓
keep them living there so you're paying for their rent, right? They're able to manipulate you and take advantage of you. So people with ASPD can form attachments. They can experience loyalty and care about specific people, but it's not the same as the other types of emotional connection where someone is actually like emotionally tied to your well-being. People with ASPD often are focused on what
gets them what they want. And if you help them get there, they're gonna be loyal to you. But their self-interest is always gonna take priority. Right? They're always they're just because they care about you or they're loyal to you or even understand what you're feeling, it doesn't mean it's gonna stop them from lying to you or having an affair or using you for money. Right. So I think that the that the expectations have to be different. It's like
Understanding that this person is like laser focused on the goodies and they will do whatever it takes to get those goodies. And their care for you, like with other people, their care for you won't stop them from that, won't hold them back or make them think twice about it. It's still gonna be number one, right? Getting their drug of choice is still gonna be their number one and they'll lie and cheat their way to it, regardless of how loyal or how much they care about you.
So that's pretty dark, I'm sorry to say.
But that might save you from the heartache of trying to get that person to ⁓ stop hurting you in normal ways that you would with other people. So if normally if someone lies to you or cheats on you behind your back, you can appeal to the emotional connection. You could be like, that really hurt me. Did you know that what you did really hurt my feelings? That's not okay with me. you should feel bad about that, right?
That might work for someone else. That feel, you know, feeling of guilt, a feeling like, my God, I hurt that, I hurt someone I love. That's terrible. Let me change let me feel guilt and change my behavior so I won't make the mistake in the future. That's not necessarily going to work for people with ASPD, right? They don't have that kind of, they don't have that empathy and they might not have that long-term thinking. So even getting them to see or understand why they hurt you or that you're hurt might not sway them.
Like in the moment, if they think, ⁓ them breaking up with me or them being upset with me might compromise what I want, they might actually act sad and remorseful. But you can see if they actually change their behavior or if they are, you know, just doing it to manipulate you. Right. So it's just you're not gonna be able to pull on the same kinds of things to get that person to change.
as you normally do, right?
The question is less, do they care about me? And it's more about how are they acting? How are they showing up? Are they meeting expectations? What are they doing? Are they are they violating something important? Are they acting ways that really hurt me? So focusing on how they're treating you versus
how they think and feel about it and why they're doing it, right? I mean, that's that's good that goes across everything. But I think that at least I was caught in when, you know, with people with ASPD, like the person I'm talking about, I was caught in like I want them to see how much damage they've caused. I want them to, I want justice. I want them to feel guilty about how they made me feel. ⁓ I want them to know that they hurt me. And actually
There was a time a month after that whole incident where he did call and was like, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that to you. Blah, blah, blah. He was trying to get back together with me. And as soon I was like, No, this is not gonna happen. Suddenly that remorse turned off. I could hear it in his voice. It was gone. I was like, okay, fine. Right? So it's with people with ASBD, you know, it might not always be their fault that they're that that way. They might actually
care, they might actually be trying. They might be bummed out that they're so swayed by the goodies that they blow up their lives all the time. But it's the proof is really in the pudding. It's really watching how they are behaving over time. Are they changing their behavior? Are they really ⁓ making an effort to be more honest or ⁓ not or respect your rights or trying to understand how are you feeling and actually empathizing with it? Or are they just
⁓ doing whatever it takes to get what they want.
So if you're in this situation with a loved one with antisocial personality disorder, what do you do? Well, you might be wondering, i can this be cured? Can this change? Tricky, tricky. A lot of people say that antisocial personality disorder is not treatable, but the research shows that there actually is a little bit more hope. Now I'm saying this cautiously because I don't want to give you a lot of hope, but there are some
⁓ treatments that have been able to work well. One cognitive behavioral therapy, substance use treatment, and one really interesting path is mentalization-based therapy. So Bateman and Vonegy are two developers of this treatment called mentalization uh-based therapy that was mostly ⁓ developed for people with borderline personality disorder. But I think in their later work they've been
Testing it out on ⁓ in a group setting, which is interesting, with people with ASPD, especially in forensic settings like jails and and incarcerated individuals. They've seen some interesting ⁓ effects of that, that actually they can get a little bit better. and that treatment is a lot more about ⁓ interpersonal skills and
With a mentalization-based therapy is teaching someone to learn how to take someone else's perspective. Right. If there's a if if they get angry or they get into argument, it really makes them slow down and go, okay, what was I thinking before that? What was I feeling? What was the other person thinking or feeling? Right. So like really building up that perspective-taking skill. ⁓ however,
The person doing the treatment with ASPD has to be really motivated. So they really have to want to change. They have to ⁓ you know, be able to self-reflect and ⁓ engage in the therapy. And often what they do is kind of like act the part and act like they're doing the therapy, but not actually like taking in the learnings, right? Not actually applying the skills.
So usually like insight therapy or any like making them feel ashamed or confronting them about their problems, that doesn't really work for them. What works for them is if if they think the treatment is gonna help them get what they want, then they're they will be more motivated to do it. So if the treatment ⁓ or the incentives are aligned with their goals, great. So sometimes what I've heard, I haven't worked with a lot of people with ASPD, but
It's not about, you know, like ⁓ usually a therapist will come to a patient and say, you know, I could help you connect to people more and have a more fulfilling life and job and to be happy again and to treat your depression so you could live life, you know, and really be with your loved ones. It that won't work. It might be like, hey, if you do this treatment and if you change, you could get out of jail, or you can get that promotion that you want, or
Other people will look up to you and respect you, right? So you so it might be aligning the treatment goals with the goals that they already have. And I say this for also loved ones. If you have someone in your life ⁓ with ASPD or these kind of traits, you might not, you might have to throw away the things that normally motivate you or other people. Like, hey, this will make me really happy if you do this. But it
But you might have to motivate them with what they want. If you do this, you'll get the goodies. You'll get more money. You'll get more power. ⁓ you'll get, you know, this investment, right? So really ⁓ kind of like aligning with their antisocial goals in order to motivate them. So not great.
but for you as a loved one, stick to really evaluating, keeping an eye on are their actions trustworthy? Not do they love me? Do they understand how they hurt me? Can they change? Can they actually develop empathy? Can they actually feel bad for the way they're treating me? Right. But
What are they doing? How are they changing? Are they reliable? and are their goals aligned with what what my goals are, right? And what goes farther than anything else is strict boundaries, right? Don't explain to them, hey, if you do this, it'll hurt me, but say, hey, if you do this, I'm gonna pull away the this thing. I'm gonna set this boundary. I'm gonna say no, I'm going to not help you, right?
And they are reward-oriented. So what could work is actually incentivizing them with reinforcement. If they show up to work, let's say you have someone in your in your in your team or something who has ASPD. If they show up to work or that they do things, then give them goodies, give them incentives, right? Give them, give them more money, give them more rewards, right? Give them the goodies. And that will be a bigger predictor of.
what they do than you reasoning with them and try to appeal to their empathy and their ⁓ their consideration for you. So those are strategies that you can apply to someone with ASPD in your life. But I ⁓ love this topic. I just think it's so interesting. I love watching movies about it. I just maybe it's because I feel so weighed down sometimes by
empathy by people pleasing, worrying what people are feeling and what they want and what they like, that picturing someone completely free of those internal constraints seems a little freeing, right? Like when I watch like the documentaries on ⁓ Adam Newman, the founder of WeWork, or Elizabeth Holmes or I don't know, any like Breaking Bad, and you see these people who are just so evil that they're, you know, they're able to charm their way to the top.
And they don't care who they squash, exploit, or hurt in in in their wake. I'm like, wow, that's that feels so clean and clear. Like they're focused on one thing and they're going for it. And everyone else be damned. That I just I I I feel like I feel like that is watching that is like this weird ⁓ sense of freedom of like, what if I didn't have all these internal ⁓
barriers that hold me back from from a goal, right? Like what would it be like to be free of that? But of course, I would never want that because it has a lot of costs, right? You're on the on the fringe of society a lot of the time. You're alone. ⁓ empathy and connecting to people and considering them is a really important part of humanity and st and staying in the group and ⁓ getting support from other people, right? We survive from cooperation.
And if someone doesn't feel like that's necessary, doesn't have the internal mechan mechanisms, it could be challenging, right? They can get in trouble. So ⁓ I love this topic. I want to hear all your questions ⁓ or reactions. So write it in the comments and Spotify or YouTube. And ⁓ if you enjoy this podcast, please, please leave a five-star review. It really helps ⁓ boost the podcast and
gets it out to new audiences. I love it when this is shared with with new people. So ⁓ I'll see you next week.