Ep. 191-5 Mental Health Disorders People Mistake for Narcissism
This episode dives into the mental health conditions and behaviors often mistaken for narcissism.
When someone you love struggles with mental health and acts selfishly, the internet will immediately tell you that they're "a narcissist." However, you might be overlooking an underlying condition that just looks like narcissism on the surface. In this episode, Dr. Kibby reveals the five disorders frequently confused with narcissistic personality disorder, including: 1. borderline personality disorder; 2. attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder (ADHD); 3. autism, 4. complex post traumatic stress disorder (cPTSD), and 5.obsessive compulsive personality disorder (OCPD).
Dr. Kibby breaks down why these five conditions share similar behavior as narcissistic personality disorder but have critical differences in deeper motivation, triggers and beliefs. For example, BPD’s intense fear of abandonment mirrors narcissistic fears of devaluation, yet stems from different core needs. Understand how autism’s social deficits and rigid rules can appear as arrogance but are rooted in neurodivergent processes. Trauma disorders like complex PTSD create self-protective behaviors in relationships, driven by past wounds needing healing. ADHD can be mistaken for selfishness, reflecting impulsivity and attention struggles.
This episode is essential if you’re frustrated by how a loved one's treating you but you get the sense that the label "narcissist" doesn't tell the whole story. Misdiagnosing these conditions can lead to frustration and missed opportunities for connection. Learn the nuanced distinctions that empower you to respond with empathy and insight, whether in personal relationships or professional settings.
Resources:
If you need support with a difficult relationship with someone who has mental health problems (narcissism, anger issues, BPD, trauma), check out KulaMind. Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn how she can help.
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Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
Hey little helpers. So normally I love talking about what is narcissistic personality disorder, but today I'm actually gonna talk about the opposite. What is not narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder. ⁓ so today I'm gonna be talking about five disorders that people often mistake for narcissism. So I mean if you're probably consuming
social media and the internet and Googling like, is my, you know, so-and-so a narcissist. You might be dealing with a difficult relationship where you don't feel seen and you don't feel attended to in the same way that you're looking for or that you do for them. And you could be thinking, you know, my husband only thinks about himself or my daughter never takes responsibility and just looks to me for financial help.
Or my mom always makes things about her, right? So you might have these thoughts of like, how selfish is the person that I love? And Googling or going on social media, you'll probably get a bunch of content about how they might be a narcissist, right? So I'm really addressing this kind of overuse of the term narcissist to kind of describe anyone that we feel snubbed by.
It's it almost seems like any like narcissist is a shorthand for this person's evil, this person's bad, and we just gotta cut them off because they're just gonna manipulate us and gaslight us and run away. and yes, sometimes those people are. ⁓ but I really love to delve into the nuances of this and not just say narcissist is a key term for like this person is hurtful and hurting me, but really understand, okay.
What is narcissistic personality disorder and what is not? What are things that look like narcissism and could be hurtful in a relationship, but is not actually narcissistic personality disorder? So I will go through these five conditions. So I'll say that these five conditions and many more, but these five conditions are often mistaken for narcissism. The first is borderline personality disorder, second is ADHD.
third is autistic spectrum disorder, autism. Fourth is actually trauma and complex PTSD. And the fifth is obsessive compulsive personality disorder. So I'm gonna go through all of those and why are they commonly confused with narcissism. So before I dive in, I will remind anyone who's who is new to this concept about
What does actually get diagnosed as narcissistic personality disorder? What is narcissism? Narcissism as a personality trait is a spectrum. Right? So some people have it a lot and some people have it a little, but it it's actually healthy to have some form of narcissism. So before you dive into like, this is, you know, it's basically evil, it's actually
it's actually healthy in normal doses and also depending on your situation, your lifestyle, your context, right? So narcissism is a personality trait that basically, in the really clinical definition, it's it's more about feeling that you're special or superior to other people, right? narcissism in general, and like the way we're using it,
it could mean like self-absorbed and selfish and rude, inconsiderate, right? Unempathetic. But in this purest definition, narcissism is ⁓ the feel like it's kind of a belief of you being special in some way above other people. ⁓ and narcissistic personality disorder is a condition where that goes haywire, that ⁓ someone feels like they are special and above other people.
And that is actually getting in the way of their relationships, their goals in life, and their general mental health and happiness. Right? So if someone feels like, ⁓ you know, I have special gifts, I am so much smarter than everyone else, and I am more accomplished than everyone else, and my whole self-worth rides on that, my s whole self-worth rides on being the best, then
You could see how that could be a problem, right? You could see how that can get into a problem if it's not flexible, if it doesn't adapt, right? If I walk into every single room saying, I need to be the most special person here, I need to be better than everyone here, and they all have to treat me like that, and everyone has to know that, otherwise, I'm unhappy, right? That's so inflexible, and that really gets in the way of a lot of relationships. It is helpful in many, in many circumstances, right? Like having that kind of confidence.
sometimes delusional confidence helps in many circumstances, like yeah, like walking to a party, walking to a pitch meeting as, you know, a founder, or, you know, just having this this kind of like self-confidence and optimism about your own abilities that we really value, especially in Western culture. So you could see that as a trait, it's not evil, but if it gets inflexible or severe or gets in the way of your relationships or even like
getting in the way of you being treated well by others, then it's narcissistic personality disorder. So that's just what narcissism is, and that's what a narcissist is, is someone who struggles with the belief that they're so special and they can't let go of that. And what tends to happen, of course, is like this up and down or dysregulation of self esteem, right? If I am the best, if I'm the most special, if I'm the most beautiful, accomplished in the room, I feel good.
I feel like I'm worthy, I feel lovable. But if anything gets in the way of that, like someone doesn't treat me as special, or someone's better than me, or ⁓ I I go through a like I go through a blow to the ego, right? Like I'm actually not the b you know, I mess up or something like that, then it becomes a threat to their self-esteem. So ⁓ people with narcissistic narcissistic personality disorder get really upset and really
Dysregulate and do sometimes really harmful things when they feel like, no, I'm not the most special. So I'm not worthy. And I have to cling on to this specialness in order to be worthy. So as you can tell, that there are a lot of other behaviors that can look like that, but that are actually not. So narcissist narcissistic personality disorder does overlap, other also called comorbid with all these disorders that I'll be talking about.
And also before I dive in, if anyone is listening to this who is struggling with a relationship that feels narcissistic, like they feel like someone is
struggling with their own mental health to the point that it's taking over your relationship, taking over your life, and you feel like you don't know how to handle it and it's complex, then definitely give me a call, reach out to me. my program that I have been so excited about and building with amazing people, it's called KulaMind , K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D. ⁓ there's there'll be the link in the show notes, so you could just book a call with me and just talk to me if you want to ⁓ learn more about it. But
We really go through all of the skills, all the necessary skills for how to manage a loved one who's struggling with mental health, but maybe personality disorder ⁓ traits or just being very difficult. so we go over the different skills like setting healthy boundaries and regulating your own emotions and ⁓ communicating effectively and how to support them while also supporting yourself. So
If that's something that's interesting you, please let us know. ⁓ coolamine.com, you can also check it out online. So, okay. So these five conditions that I mentioned, and there's many more, but I feel like when I've heard people say, ⁓ you know, that person's a narcissist, and I really like put my clinical thinking cap on and I and I really watch their behaviors and try to understand what's going on. Some things do look narcissistic on the surface, but are actually not.
And it's hard to tell at first because you're j all you really have is their behavior, right? How they're treating you, how they're acting towards you, how they express emotion, what they do with intimacy. And you're making all sorts of guesses. But sometimes when you get down into the weeds of what's going on underneath the behavior, like what are they actually feeling? What's driving that feeling? What are their thoughts? What are their beliefs about themselves? Then you get, ⁓ okay, this might not actually be.
narcissistic personality disorder it might be due to something else. So let's talk about the first one.
So the
Disorder that is commonly confused for narcissism is borderline personality disorder or BPD. I talk about BPD a lot on this podcast. You could listen to a bunch of the other episodes that really break down what BPD is, but
BPD and narcissistic personality disorder, NPD, they are both considered ⁓ cluster B personality disorders
in the in the dramatic, I don't like that term, but in in the ⁓ the cluster B ⁓ disorders are like histrionic personality disorder, BPD.
NPD and antisocial personality disorders. So it's all these interpersonally dramatic or high conflict disorders. And BPD and and narcissism are constantly confused for each other. But and to be fair, there is a lot of overlap between those two disorders.
Actually, around there's the different studies say different things, but 13 to almost 40% of people with BPD also meet criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, MPD. So it it's tough because they feel like very different types of people, right? People with BPD, you you feel the sympathy towards, there's a lot of like this emotional chaos, but there's there people often feel
More sympathetic towards people with BPD, whereas narcissistic personality sort of basically means that they're evil, right? Which I don't agree with. But again, when we talk about just like misconceptions, ⁓ we have sympathy for BPD, but narcissists, you're like, no, no, no, it can't be. And only when people are really angry or frustrated with that person than they're like, that they're a narcissist. But there is a lot of overlap. And I think that the key similarities are that
There is a lot of conflict, right? Both BPD and MPD. There's a lot of arguments. There's a lot of disorganized attachment. There's a lot of really unease with intimacy. So and there is a lot of ups and downs, right? The the black and white thinking is really there. And this really speaks to the dysregulation that's present in both. ⁓ and I'll talk about the differences, but there is a lot of ⁓
If you love someone with one of those disorders, you could feel like the best thing in the world one day, like you they see you, they idealize you, you're on a pedestal, and then the next day you're garbage and they want nothing to do with you. So this like big highs and lows of idealization to devaluation is present in both BPD and narcissism. There's a lot of lack of taking accountability in both ⁓ both disorders, and I think
Because both people with narcissistic personality disorder and BP are ⁓ have a lot of shame. So these are disorders of people who don't feel loved for who they are. Right? They do they don't feel that secure attachment. They don't feel like no matter what they do, they're a worthy person that's worthy of love and they have someone there who will always care for them. Right? So there's this sense of like.
Feeling lonely and feeling lost and misunderstood, and that they need to do something really particular to hold on to love and approval. Right? It's almost like love is fragile to them. So there is a lot of shame, a lot of like, well, people don't love me for me. So for narcissists, they're like, I have to be the best, and then people will love me, or BPD.
It's like I need to cling on to this person and never let them go. And that's how I could be loved. So it's a lot of feeling like it's a lot of shame driven. It's a lot of shame of like, ⁓ I will be rejected for me, for who I really am inside. Right? So the the shame, the shame behaviors in both narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder are really common.
And because of that, because of how much shame there is, there is a lot of sensitivity criticism. Both people with, you know, BPD or MPD, they do not handle criticism well, right? They don't take, as I mentioned, they don't take accountability, right? They they tend to blame other people for their problems. And when something is pointed out like something that they do wrong, it is not taken well. They don't like it. but
And it's like, no, they're they they need to they can't even take in any negative feedback, even if it's like you hurt me or something you did. I know you didn't mean, but it it had this negative impact on me. They their shame is so overpowering that they get defensive, they blame, they sometimes even block out what you say. so
There are as you can tell, there are a lot of similarities with BPD and MPD. So it's hard to tell what's what. And I still find it confusing. There are many patients who come in for, you know, borderline personality disorder that I'm like, there's something that feels narcissistic, right? There's in both of the disorders, they've they have this like this immature feeling. And I don't mean in a in a mean way, but it it's like they're young.
Right, I always talk talked about BPD as feeling like it's a young, like a three-year-old, especially emotionally. And narcissist is more like an adolescent, right? It's like one is struggling with emotion regulation and one is struggling with identity, but it it feels young. So there is naturally this like inward focus, this selfishness, this ⁓ I gotta protect myself at all costs. And even that that means blaming you.
And I get upset by things that people should be able to handle, right? Like criticism or feedback or some space in a relationship or not being the best, not being the most attended to. so there are there are times when people, even when BPD feel narcissistic, they feel selfish, feel self-absorbed. And that happens with any intense emotion, right? There's this selfishness that comes when you really, really upset.
When you're in survival mode, you get really selfish, naturally, right? That's on that's on a dig. That's it's you're supposed to worry about your own survival, right? So if you're really upset, your attention's going inward. Now, with people with BPD, that's happening a lot, right? So they could feel really narcissistic.
the times that is are the most confusing is when I was d I was working with people with BPD and they're criticized or the the common feedback is like they all make it all about themselves, right? So
if any emotion is talked about or any emotional situation or conflict has come up, sometimes people with BPD like are overwhelmed by their own emotions that they like talk about themselves, right? They're like, ⁓ what about me and how hard this I mean this is actually the struggle I have with my mom, who's probably watching this, so I'm sorry mom. But sh but
Sometimes when she feels like when there's an emotional situation and I'm expressing how I feel, she will bring it about her and h how she feels, right? And she doesn't mean anything bad by it, but and that's just the way she's ⁓ way she could connect to what I'm saying, but it feels self-absorbed, right? It feels like I'm not seen and it feels like the emotional space is all taken up by the other person and I just have to and my response to it is just kind of being like, Okay, yeah, my my emotions don't matter.
But that is really confusing with people with BPD because they they're like, Well, I'm feeling this and I'm feeling that. What about me? And and you go, hey, but when you scream at me, it really hurts my feelings. And then and then they don't want to hear it, right? So it's almost like they get to dominate the emotional space. But the difference is that
As I kind of mentioned it, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder is narcissists are concerned with their self-esteem, needing to feel special.
In a sort of social hierarchical way. Like I need to I need to be the top and the best at these like societal metrics of what's good. I need to be the richest. I need to be the most ⁓ beautiful. I need to be the the most accomplished. Everyone needs to pay attention to me and praise me and treat me like I'm special. I only get into the elite special groups and places at the restaurants and stuff. Like I need to be on top.
Whereas people with B P D don't actually, and in its purest form, they don't the being on top is not the priority. What's the priority is keeping close to someone, right? Like to having that intimacy. They feel like they are
so unstable and so you know their lack of sense of self, they don't feel like they're anything on their own. So they feel like they need a person, need closeness to feel whole, to feel regulated. ⁓ so that's why that feels even younger. It feels like three-year-old where you see like these younger kids, it makes sense, right? They get really, really upset if they're away from their caregiver. It's a similar kind of feeling I have with people with BPD. So they care more about not being abandoned.
⁓ and the pain of being abandoned versus with narcissists they're like
I mean, it is a similar thing of abandonment. They want approval, but they want a specific kind of approval of like I am on the top, right? It's not necessarily like I need to be connected to one person or I need this intimacy, but I need to be the top. And yes, that's a means to an end that that makes people love me and stay with me. ⁓ but that's really more about like their ego is like their sole source of worth. Whereas intimacy is like the the driver of feeling worthy.
with BPD. So it's very small, right? You could kind of tell it's small. But and and sometimes actually it th in the most difficult relationships with people with these disorders
There there is a lot of ⁓ what it feels like emotional manipulation, right? This feeling of control, right? The person with these disorders feels so out of control and they feel like their own worth is so fragile that they need to control you. They need to keep you close, they need you to praise them, they need you to love them, and any chip in that armor.
makes everything crumble, right? There's no flexibility in that. It's like, I need to be special or you need to love me and never leave me. Otherwise I'm a mess. So but the key drivers are very different. BPD is I'm scared that you're gonna leave me, whereas narcissistic personality disorder is I'm I'm terrified you'll devalue me. You won't respect me. You won't see me as as special. ⁓
So they look they can look identical, but the key thing is if you feel like pulled by them, with BPD they want you close and with NPD they want you lower. Right? So you could see that it could be s very similar.
behaviors driven by different needs. But they could still look very dysregulated. They both have anger issues. They both lash out. There's both, like I mentioned, ups and downs. So it can look very similar. ⁓
The second condition that I often hear confused with narcissism, especially in relationships, is ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Now, again, this is a condition that over often overlaps with narcissism. So people who have ADHD often have narcissism, and vice versa, right? So
The way it could look similar though is a person with ADHD is really forgetful. It's really inconsiderate and sometimes really selfish. I mean I'm thinking about my ex-husband and I mean I still don't know.
If I could classify the behaviors that really hurt me as ADHD or or narcissistic. So ADHD in this core, I mean that ADHD is another totally overdiagnosed condition, in my opinion, but because so many disorders have attention issues. So the the the key thing with ADHD is it looks like basically that they people with ADHD have a hard time.
controlling their attention, right? They can they can stare at a video game or a TV for really long periods of time, something that they like. But when it comes to actually, okay, I gotta break away, I gotta attend to this other thing that is more in line with with my long-term goals, they have a harder time, right? So their their attention beam is like, you know, wandering around and they don't have as as much control over it. Now, the way it looks like narcissism is that
Well, w I think that we in general in our relationships really understand care as signs of
someone considering us and considering our feelings and needs outside of their own, right? So someone someone who thinks like thinks about what you want for your birthday or thinks about what would make you happy or and remembers important details about you because they're, you know, they really want to get to know you. So people with ADHD have a tr hard time doing that. and with my ex it was
It w it it looked like that where he looked like he was in his own little world in his own little head. Not little, but he was in his own little world and things that he promised me, things that he said he would do, he didn't do or forget about it, like he would offer I mean, sometimes he was really kind and would offer to do the laundry, ⁓ but then would like leave the laundry wet in the basement for days on end. And that really did look like
I wasn't being considered, right? It felt like ink, you know, it felt like self-centered because he would go out, he would leave the laundry and go and do other things. He would play guitar and just hang out and do things that he wanted. So it felt really like you're not considering things that are important to me. You're just doing what you need. And the the the feeling of the of people with ADHD and narcissism could be similar because it feels
Like almost like boyish, almost like childish. Like I'm I wanna be fun and free and pay attention to all these different things and follow things that interest me instead of like what am what do I need to do to show that I care for this other person? What do I need to do to be responsible? What I need to keep track of. So it has this also this immature feeling. and
the the struggle to follow through on promises or to even pay attention to what you're saying, like foc like in conversations, right? Sometimes they're, you know, they'll be on their phone and you'll be like, this guy doesn't care about me. This guy's a narcissist. But it is and it could be ADHD.
So I I I find this really hard to piece apart because
People with ADHD often focus more easily, their attention is captured by the things that interest them, right? Like video games or ⁓ you know, like, I don't know, whatever whatever they wanted to even work sometimes, like, you know, whatever is interesting to them, they could hyperfixate on. And that could look really selfish. And I've had issues with friends who ⁓ would
s blame it a lot on ADHD, like ⁓ forgetting to let me know when they're going to be at a certain place or f you know, just forgetting to coordinate or forgetting my birthday or ⁓
Being at a party or being in a a situation and they just kind of wander off and do their own thing when they were supposed to hang out with me, let's say. But all this kind of like attention outward and away was explained as ADHD. And sometimes I wondered if it was ADHD or was it narcissism, right? Because they're focusing on the things that they care about, and the things that they care about could be self-centered, right? Like
You know, ⁓ like times when I'd be upset where like they would really think about how to show up for like the guy that they're chasing instead of show up for me the same way or a friendship, right? So or ⁓ like in this party example, I'm thinking of this one friend who
⁓ would often attend to whatever whoever was flirting with them or was like paying attention to them in that in that way. And that could be an ADHD thing, right? It's fun, like they get wrapped up in social ⁓ situations and they they are going to like the most exciting things, but it's also going to things that boost their ego, boost their self-esteem. So what happens when someone is so fixated
⁓ or their tension is grabbed and pulled away by things that are makes them feel special, right? Then is then the blend of ADHD and narcissism is really confusing. But the the way to differentiate them, to be like, okay, is is my husband suffering from ADHD or is it narcissism? Well, it's it's again looking at the motivations underneath, right? So if the partner is
really ⁓ caring and thinking of you and empathetic and paying attention to your needs and emotions, but it's inconsistent, ⁓ even when they care, then it might be more in the ADHD realm. But if it's all about
if their if their attention is always drawn to things that boost their ego, right? Things that make them feel special, or people who flirt with them, people admire them, or ⁓ anything, any situation where they get special treatment, right? If this is a really selective place where their attention just like zeros in, I mean, it could be both, right? But people with ADHD don't necessarily have that.
I need to be special. it could be a defense, right? It could be defense for feeling bad that they're not ⁓ good at paying attention to things, or they might be disorganized even though they're really smart. But looking for what is under what is driving the wandering eye? What is driving the wandering attention? that could give you clues about who who's actually has just plain ADHD or who has narcissism.
still still to this day, I do not know what my ex has. I would beg for him to help around the house. I would beg for him to get a job, and he didn't. He would just kind of get lost in smoking weed and playing guitar. ⁓ and I do not know if it was
the you know just like not being able to organize and be focus on long-term task and delay gratification with ADHD or is a is this is it a selfhood thing is it a self-esteem issue where he was
I I think there was some identity issues, but he was like, I I don't feel like I want to I I can't possibly ⁓ tolerate jobs that are bel beneath me and I'll only tolerate jobs that are high end, or I want to just like hang out and enjoy my time, even though it's ex you know, making someone else pay for it. So I can't tell how much of it is just like a pure attention problem versus ⁓
dri like behaviors driven by belief that they're special and don't need to do the hard stuff. So that could be really difficult.
The third condition that is often confused for a narcissistic personality disorder in a really interesting way is autism. So I'll admit that I don't know as much about it as I'd like to, but
There has been attention recently about how people with on the autism spectrum disorder on the autism spectrum are confused or misdiagnosed with having a personality disorder. ⁓ I've seen this more in the b ⁓ borderline personality disorder world where people are saying I got diagnosed with BPD, but actually I have autism or masking autism, like which is a version of being able to hide those, you know, compensate for some of the lack of ability to read other.
Other people's social cues or to adapt to new social situations, right? So I've always been fascinated by thinking about personality disorders as maybe on the spectrum, right? It's like a like a learning deficit for social situations. ⁓ But that I, you know, that I could go on a soapbox about that, so I'll spare you. But it it's always fascinating to know like what when people have a personality disorder and can't adapt.
Their behaviors like, ⁓ I need to be special, I need to be the most beautiful, but that is actually getting in the way of the relationships. Why don't they adapt? That's something that we see in personality disorders, but also autism, right? So with autism and narcissistic personality disorder, there are some things that are similar. One is the lack of empathy.
And we talk about it different ways and the different disorders. But empathy is a big, is a, is a big set of different processes. But at the core of it, it look, it can look like missing social cues or not paying attention to your needs and feelings, or prioritizing their own needs and feelings and saying things that might be rude or disrespectful or inconsiderate to the other person, right? So this missing social cues is present both in narcissistic personality disorder and autism.
⁓ in a really fascinating way. But with narcissism, we think more about anyway, sorry. I won't get into the differences yet, but missing the social cues is one. another thing is just compassion and empathy expression. Like it might be very hard for people with both of those disorders to validate, like recognize and validate someone else's feelings. and
There's there is like this kind of self-focus. Sometimes b patients of that have had a boat with either one, either autism or or NPD, they talk a lot about themselves. They just sit and talk about their interests for very long periods of time without reading any social cues that I like you know, not listening or want to talk about something else. They kind of get lost in their heads and talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Right. and the key part that I always see as like
Maybe an underlying transdiagnostic process, something that binds the two disorders together, is rigidity in social situations. So I I I thought about this first when I was ⁓ in teaching DBT group, dialectical behavior therapy group at Duke. And
We would often get people in the group that had borderline personality disorder mostly, but had all different kinds of disorders that were just interpersonally difficult. And I remember this one man joined for a very brief period of time and he was you know interpersonally odd. He kind of made, you know, really intense eye contact and just like had this posture. ⁓ came in and was just
Everyone felt that he was really rude. ⁓ he I think I don't know exactly what his diagnosis was, but every everyone in that room, unfortunately, was like, that guy's a narcissist. And he was he asked questions really intensely. Like he just was like, he said to my ⁓ my co-leader, like
How long have you been doing this? And my co-leader was like, yeah, two years. I, you know, been teaching group. And he was like, ⁓ not very long then. You're not very experienced. Right? Which was super devaluing and kind of humiliating and rude. ⁓ but I was I remember thinking, like, huh. There's some there was there was something about it that didn't feel like he meant to make him feel bad, but it was a like matter of fact.
So I was like, wow, both disorders tend to, you know, they tend to say things bluntly that could be rude or devouring or b belittling, that doesn't have like the social graces. It's not like polite. but it could be for different reasons. And the rigidity is interesting because and I'm thinking honestly, I'm thinking a lot about this one friend that I had. ⁓
at in grad school, ⁓ who remained nameless. but there were a lot of things that he said that sounded really narcissistic. Like, I don't know why we sh anyone should listen to that person. I'm clearly more accomplished than they are, right? Or,
Well, this person is worthless because they are not accomplished, right? It was like a very almost like reducing people down to where they are in the social hierarchy. How special are they? And it sounded so narcissistic, right? But then I was like, wait a minute. And so like knowing him, sometimes it wasn't malicious. Sometimes it wasn't like
It wasn't really aimed to belittle someone, but it was just like almost matter-of-fact. Like the way he saw the world. And I was like, wow, people with autism, ⁓ they have, you know, it's a pretty broad disorder that's really being understood only now, but it's usually there's ⁓ cognitive issues, social issues, or a kind of like motor, motor issue. And
Because they have some social de people with autism have social deficits. ⁓ like they just don't read social cues that well, or they they don't have this natural sense of how much eye contact they should make or what is nice or what people are feeling. Like s social cues are just like a language that they don't naturally speak. They have to like learn rules.
They have to learn it manually, right? And it's we have like an intrinsic sense of it if you don't have autism. You have an intrinsic sense of, okay, this is how much eye contact I could I should make, and this is when I should look away, or this is what I should say to make them feel that other person feel good. When you don't have that natural in innate sense of social cues, you have to learn rules. You have to learn, ⁓ I'm you should make eye contact for 50% of the time and then look away. ⁓
This is what ⁓ this emotion looks like. And ⁓ the good thing for you to do is ⁓ get good grades and be accomplished, and that makes you a good person. So that there's all these rigid rules in both narcissism and autism, right? Like with narcissism, they're like a person is worthy based on their social hierarchy, their specialness compared to other people. Well, if someone with autism has learned that, and especially if they are talented in some way and they've like
become, you know, accomplished or special because of their their gifts, that might be confused.
But of course there are main differences with people with autism and narcissistic personality disorder. So f so I think there should be more research on this. But people with narcissistic personality disorder might be able to read social cues, but they just might not care. They might be able to read how you are feeling and what you need and what you care about, but they might not care because they are more self focused. Whereas people with autism it's kind of like,
Can they not hear or are they deaf? Right? And people with autistic on the spectrum might be more deaf. They might not be able to pick up on the cues. People with ⁓ autism actually
do care really deeply. They are they do care about relationships and they do feel deeply, but they might not express it in the same way. They might be a little bit more flat or they might be but or they might get overwhelmed and it's regulated, right? So they might not know how to like communicate emotionally. Whereas people with narcissism, ⁓
It could be possible that they don't have empathy at all, right? They just don't. They don't are they aren't moved by other people's distress. They only care about themselves. and they will only use certain social cues in order to get ahead. So if a person is
If you if you might be feeling like I feel unseen by this person or I feel belittled or like this person's rude and inconsiderate devaluing. You can think about are they devaluing me because they want to make me feel small because it makes them feel worthy, or
Is that just what they learned is a social rule? Is this how they've learned what how social interactions go? And they don't necessarily feel above you or they don't feel superior to you, but they just don't know how to communicate their emotions very well. ⁓ so that is the I think the empathy piece is a really interesting ⁓ differentiator and similarity with the narcissistic personality sort of and autism.
Okay. The fourth condition that is often confused for narcissism, and I know this is not gonna be a popular thing that I talk about, and you're gonna hate me, but trauma and complex PTSD symptoms can look like narcissism. I'm expecting people listening to this really not liking this because as I've actually talked about in a previous episode, ⁓
Complex PTSD is there there is a resurgence in the field of wanting to reclaim that or claim in the first place, claim a C PTSD and say, hey, a lot of these disorders that are ⁓ stigmatizing or kind of blame the person, they are actually a trauma response.
People I hear that more with people with BPD where they're like, yeah, I I lash out and scream and run away from relationships, but that's b but you know, if I'm called if I have borderline personality disorder, you you blame me. Whereas if I have complex PTSD that recognizes that this was a reaction to something that happened to me, right? I'm a victim of something, and this is how my response. So
I know that it's not gonna be popular to say that people with complex PTSD can look like their narcissists when they're really not. And vice versa. I do wanna say that
I do think that a lot of people are called narcissists, especially online, that might just have complex PTSD. So there is, I don't know about the actual overlap, but it's not uncommon, right? A lot of narcissism is is a defense against trauma, right? People who've been neglected, people who've been abused as a child often develop symptoms of both. So the things that can look similar, again, is this blunting emotion.
So something that's they they don't look, they might not look that sensitive to your feelings, they might be kind of cut off, they might be self-focused, right? ⁓ with narcissism is more of an interest in yourself ⁓ and being special, whereas complex PTSD, that's like a protection against overwhelming feelings. But ⁓ I think a lot of antisocial vibes of the both can feel similar. Like
Both people with narcissistic disorder and complex PTSD can be self-sufficient to a fault, right? I'm the only one who can do things do things and take care of myself. I'm defensive, like I I don't take criticism very well. ⁓ I'm the only one who matters, I'm the only one who I can rely on. ⁓ and they don't trust other people, which can be which can be devaluing, right? So
I see in complex PTSD often people don't trust others, right? Because there's a history of being abused or ⁓ hurt or left by other people. So relationships and secure attachment is like not ⁓ it's fragile for people with complex PTSD. So they don't trust anyone. It's like anyone, it like when they go out and date, they might be like, ugh.
you know, that that person said that person went to this school and it w it isn't as good as what I what I think. Or they they I mean I've o often hear that they they'll be guarded against people who don't meet like certain criteria in dating, right? They're they're just not as smart or they're not as accomplished or they
I don't know, I haven't been in a relationship for a while. So people with both disorders will look for reasons to push someone away or even like de devalue them. People with complex PTC, it's almost just like a wall. It's like, I can't get hurt. I can't get close to someone. It's too hurtful. So I'll keep them at arm's length. Whereas people with narcissism are like, I keep them at arm's length and down. And of course that could be sound similar, right? You could both both people can sound snotty.
Right. Like, ⁓ I'm not gonna date that person because, you know, they came from a a worse school than I do, or they came from a bad neighborhood. Well, that could be a trauma response. Like, I the idea of letting someone in and trusting someone is so scary that I'm going to look for reasons why they're not worthy or I just shouldn't rely on them. I shouldn't open up to them. Right. But complex PTHC is all about not.
triggering the memories of what they've been through, not opening up those wounds, that trauma. Whereas with narcissism, yes, there is there are a lot of wounds, but it might not always be the case. They mu people with narcissism might not have a history of trauma. They might just be like, I don't have any
traumatic overwhelming memories where my safety was at risk about this, but I just think that people who go to crappy schools are not worth my time, right? So it's this pushing away is this distancing from other people that feel similar to complex PTSD and narcissism.
And along with that distancing is a distrust, right? It could be even like paranoid, right? It could be like, you you're not worthy, you're not, I can't trust you, I can't rely on you, you're you're you're dead to me. ⁓ and it could be it could have like these elements of paranoia, like everyone's out to get me, or
I think you mean harm to me, right? So especially like more malignant versions of narcissism where they're like really almost like they're more inclined to hurt other people. ⁓ that paranoia that like you are out to get me is a common problem in both of those disorders, CPS D S D and narcissism.
But the key difference here is complex PTSD. And of course they could be all they could overlap again. But complex PTSD is all about survival mode, right? Whatever they need to, they go into this mode of, my God, this is unsafe. People are unsafe. Relationships are unsafe. What do I need to survive? Whereas
people in narcissism, it's not necessarily feeling like there's an emergency or that they're that they're in survival mode. They might also act this way when they're not up when they're not as upset or not as scared.
Right. So it's like kind of more of a belief system that permeates all their emotions. Whereas complex PTSD is a little bit more dependent on how upset am I, how stressful stressed am I, how much does this relate to my my trauma in the past.
But for both these people with complex PTSD and narcissism, if
They're so concerned with feeling special or protecting themselves that they don't have capacity for more empathy and perspective taking to be flexible and say, hey, maybe this person isn't the most accomplished, but maybe they can love me. Maybe they can be safe, right? That that the benefit of the doubt. Right. So taking the they're they're both so guarded that.
they don't have the ability to like see outside of all of those ⁓ defenses. and yeah, I mean, I do have to say that a lot of CPTSD behavior looks narcissistic, which people don't like because when you think of complex PTSD, you think I'm the victim. And then online you would say that narcissists are like evil manipulators. So the idea that someone can be both
Seems to blow people's minds. But it's possible. Someone who has been neglected and abused and ⁓ mistreated for years and years, but they've learned to survive by being special in some way, right? Like they're a really good athlete, or they're really beautiful, or they're really good at school. And they cling on to that quality, that that form of specialness to keep them safe in social situations. So that could become both. It could be both narcissistic.
Where it's like this one thing that kept me safe is that, you know, and I cannot lose it or I cannot have that be compromised in any way. because they're afraid of like what would happen if they didn't have that protection, right? If then if I wa if I wasn't the most beautiful, maybe I'd be left, maybe I'd be abused, maybe I'd be abandoned