Ep. 202 - How Childhood Trauma Affects Adult Relationships | EMDR Explained with Jessica Connell
How can experiences from childhood continue to shape our relationships decades later? And can trauma responses actually be changed?
In this episode, Dr. Kibby McMahon sits down with psychotherapist and executive coach Jessica Connell, LCSW, to explore developmental trauma, EMDR, and the ways our early experiences can influence how we connect with others.
Jessica explains what developmental trauma can look like, from major experiences of abuse or instability to moments of shame, rejection, or emotional disconnection that stay with us over time. They discuss how these experiences can show up later as difficulty trusting, fear of conflict, emotional reactivity, withdrawal, or feeling unsafe even in otherwise healthy relationships.
They also take a closer look at EMDR: what happens during a session, how bilateral stimulation is used, and how trauma-focused work can help people respond differently to triggers in the present.
In this episode:
• What developmental trauma actually means
• How childhood experiences shape adult relationships
• Why certain situations can trigger surprisingly intense reactions
• The “tiger and turtle” dynamic in relationships
• What it means to feel emotionally safe with another person
• How EMDR works and what a session can look like
• Why healing doesn’t mean never getting triggered again
• How understanding our patterns can help us communicate differently
Jessica Connell is a psychotherapist, executive coach, and owner of Confident Mind Psychotherapy and Coaching in New York City.
If you’ve ever wondered why certain relationship dynamics affect you so deeply, or how experiences from your past might still be influencing your reactions today, this conversation offers a compassionate look at where those patterns come from and how they can begin to change.
-
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:00)
Welcome back, little helpers. Today I have a really exciting guest for you all. I've been dying to hear much more about trauma treatments that I don't know much about. EMDR was one of them, but I've gotten a lot of questions from you guys about trauma and relationships. Complex trauma, complex PTSD. Can it be treated? What does that mean? So I'm really excited to have.
more of an expert on EMDR and treating traumas here with us today. Her name is Jessica Connell. She has a LCSW. She's a psychotherapist, an executive coach.
And she's the owner of Confident Mind Psychotherapy and Coaching in New York, which is where I am too. So that's cool.
Jessica Connell (00:46)
Yeah,
awesome. Thank you so much for having me today.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:50)
so excited to dive into everything. first tell everyone who you are, how you got into this work, 'cause it's like it's always an interesting story to get into what we do.
Jessica Connell (01:02)
Absolutely. Yeah, so I'm Jessica. I'm a psychotherapist and executive executive coach in Manhattan. and I got well, I started as with an undergrad in psychology. I was definitely you know, just kind of growing up and seeing how people were and you know, like the people we grew up with, even people's parents. I was always kind of more focused and very observant on how people were acting, kind of a lot of people watching going on. and when I took actually just my first elective
I didn't start psychology right away. But I took an elective in psychology, as a major. I didn't start right away, but I took an elective and I think it was like general psych or something and I was like, This relates to so many people that I know and this is so interesting to me. And so I was like, Let's keep going with this. I got very I got very into obviously started to major in psychology and and do the coursework, experimental psych, you know, we got it
in the operant conditioning chambers with the rats and all that stuff. and I just did did really well at it and I wanted to keep going and, you know, become, you know, a therapist. but I was gonna kinda do it by way of I always loved take your daughters to work day with my dad and worked he worked in corporate and investment banking. And I was like I but I don't want to miss out on that part of it or of like a career. So
we kind of figured out this way where maybe I would just like go into HR and then kind of concurrent with working. I would go back to school and, you know, kind of do night classes and stuff like that. So, that was the original goal. so I graduated the height of financial crisis. So I I I I did get an offer at an investment bank in HR, like right right out the bat, super, super excited and the financial crisis happened. So that offer was taken away. but so I just kind of went with
you know, kinda just trying to get any sort of job and got in still got into an investment bank and actually the legal department and then had a bunch of different infrastructure jobs from there. I was doing really well, kind of forgot about the whole going back to school thing. until, you know, it gets boring after a while. After eight years and, you know, doing some corporate work, I was always still focused on the people, you know, helping my boss kind of like do the appropriate push back and like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:20)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (03:20)
stop
making meetings with the other teams because we have to work with them, right? He'd always bring me into to some of the meetings, just kind of be like, like keep me like keep me focused, keep me calm, kind of a thing. And so, you know, from there I was kind of like, you know, I really do still have this passion for psychology. So, and I just went to look into what kind of routes I can take and I found the social work route and kind of the rest is history.
applied to one school MYU, got in and you know, loved the coursework and you know went on to do my clinical hours at a private practice and really still wanted to continue to focus on trying to get psychology actually into the workplace after everything that I saw. So that's where the executive coaches.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:05)
Gotcha. Cool. And so how did you end up with trauma? So it's like it's you get at I hear the executive coaching pieces,
Jessica Connell (04:12)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:13)
but then also trauma, which makes sense, but
Jessica Connell (04:15)
Well
trauma is in the in the workplace as well, right? you know, you
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (04:21)
hear you know, you hear some acute stories of, you know, bad things that shouldn't be happening in the workplace to, you know, like like stories of like people feeling less confident and all of that stuff. So I knew it wanted it to be corporated into my work. so it's not just all only focused on my work isn't just focused on corporate professionals or just like the corporate workplace, but as a
new general anxiety and perfectionism, all that kind of stuff that comes with it. and throughout seeing clients, realizing that developmental trauma is such a big part of what shapes our story and what shapes our behaviors and where we are now, I always kinda say, you know, we are very much tied to our childhood self, right? And a lot of times with trauma and developmental traumas, and this is what we try to work on with EMDR, it starts out, you know, when when when our tra we're in developmental traumas are still
affecting our behaviors in our current life right now. There it feels like there's this like rubber band that kind brings us back to like this this this time, this behavior this subconscious thing that's going on that we don't know. So we get pinged back to it and then we don't understand why, you know, anxiety triggers come up and then we just react, right? I always say we want to turn that into a string because you're never gonna get rid of it completely. So we look at it as a string that we can kind of just look back to and say, okay, that's where it came from. It's not pinging me right back there.
And so from looking back to that string, I could come back into the now and be like, okay, how do I want behave now? And so that's kind of how I segued into trauma work as well and also relationship work, couples therapy also, because I think even just training in emotionally focused therapy, it opened my eyes so much as to also what goes on into person. You don't have to just maybe use it in couples, right? It is very helpful in couples, but
There's relationships in the workplace, the relationships with our families, you know, like relationships, there could be co-founder relationships that are very similar to what couple relationships look like. And so, that's kind of how my work's kind of interweaved itself from you know the corporate setting, kind of generalized kind of like anxiety, perfectionism, burnout, all that stuff into figuring out all the developmental traumas kind of psychodynamically as those come up.
and then kind of weaving it into interpersonal dynamics with emotionally focused therapy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:39)
Gotcha. And for people who don't know, what is a developmental trauma versus any other kind of trauma? Can you give like examples and wait to understand what that is?
Jessica Connell (06:49)
Absolutely. Developmental traumas are things that are happening along the way from when we're a child, probably up into early adulthood. I think they can also just continue to happen because if it's it's anything where we look back to and say like, say it's something on, you know, the school playground where somebody, you know, poked fun at the color of your hair or, you know, something or a a spot on your face or a mole on your face and it and everybody looked and you just can
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:16)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (07:16)
put yourself back to
time. Right. Another developmental trauma is a lot with with families. you know, more acute developmental traumas are families, you know, with it with addiction or or parents with personality disorders, any sort of like parental behavioral issues that are going on where the parent is is, you know, not as is n is neglectful, is a little abusive or or even you know highly abusive. Kind of depends on how big that
that developmental trauma is, but anything that we look back toward and we're like, I remember that time. I remember that time of feeling the shame that can also bring me back to like that that brings me back if I feel the shame right now, it brings me back to that time. And a lot of
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:59)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (08:01)
times it is with parents, with siblings, and around school age things that happen with peers.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:08)
Gotcha. So is it just is it just anything that happens in childhood or is it the kind of trauma that defines you, shapes who you are, is like a core wound? Like is it is it more about like the time it happens or the impact that it has?
Jessica Connell (08:24)
I think it's both a little bit of both. I think it it is the I think the biggest part, like I said, it can be along the way too is the impact. I think we're not as impacted as adults. The thing is it's what's happening when we're children is that we're very much stuck. We're stuck in what our parents put us in, in the community they put us in, the schools they put us in. And I always say time does move more I don't know what that is, but it does for children. It moves just so much more slowly. So we feel that much more stuck. And so the impact
of those things are just so much more real. So you're stuck with this person who is bullying you in first grade, right? Like you're stuck in that situation. And it can it can impact you in a way that is so deeply hurtful too then you know you could ha you could be that person moves or they're no longer bullying you in second, third and all the way out through high school, but that particular time and it can be, it doesn't even have to be like throughout the whole year. It can be like once or twice, but
It embarrasses you, it shames you in such a way. Remember it is it is like a core trauma, gets trapped in your nervous system.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:29)
Got it, got it. And you're you're bringing up such a such a hot topic because I'm hearing this more and more, especially in families that are struggling with mental illness.
People like adult like adults like twenty, thirty year old, are so affected by trauma or abuse and they say, Hey mom, you abused me when I was a kid. You didn't
get the shoes that I wanted. Like I'm I'm gonna give like general examples, but ones that are like, you didn't pack the right lunch for me or you walked away when you you know when I cried about this. How do you are you seeing that like people maybe like owning or defining or grappling with abuse in a different way now? Like these developmental traumas?
Jessica Connell (10:25)
Can you say a little more about that? You mean
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:27)
Yeah, how do I
Jessica Connell (10:28)
like these kind of everyday type of things?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:30)
There's a lot of confusion in families where a person says, I I was traumatized, I was abused. And the other side, like a parent of someone says, I was doing my best and I didn't hit you or scream at you. I I didn't abuse you, or I don't remember it like that. But then there's that impasse where
It seems to be a d developmental trauma for that person. How d how
Jessica Connell (10:56)
Yeah. No, I mean
I I do think that that is coming up and I do think we have to figure out a way to I guess define it a little bit more. Because is it is it abuse? Parent is thinking that they are doing their best. And maybe what they did was not best for their child at that time. But I think we do have to kind of separate like levels of like what constitutes abuse. Yeah, this affected me, maybe we should say. Right? The time this was actually really affecting to me. You didn't buy me the shoes therefore I went to school and everybody made fun of me.
Right. You didn't pack me the right lunch every day, or you made me eat this certain thing, and now I have this aversion to certain type of foods, right?
Because
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:32)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (11:32)
the parent wasn't listening or you know, maybe the parent couldn't afford to buy the shoes, right? Like so there is a big disconnect between what the child can be experiencing as this abuse, and we'll like call it like the effect that the parent had on them, and the parent actually trying to defend themselves and say, But this I was working I was doing the best I could. I was working
You know, I was I was trying to keep my head above water, you know, and and we did all these X, Y, and Z, all these good things for you, right? Where I'm seeing that families can come together is that there needs to be space for both, but also the bigger space needs to be for the child to be able to express to the parent these are the things that affected me growing up. Maybe some of them we have to put them on kind of like a spectrum of how acute toward abuse it could actually be.
You know, like if a parent is like really harsh and saying, like, I'm not gonna pay for you to go to school anymore because you didn't do X, Y, and Z, just as a scare tactic to, you know, try to shape them into, you know, it was more of a parent's way of controlling the situation to them to go to school and to do their best. They think that they're trying to shape them in a way that'll push them forward where it might have them, right? So we're n
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:41)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (12:43)
they're what the parent is needing to do and the ch child is actually needing to not hear, I did this because
Right? Or but
Dr. Kibby McMahon (12:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (12:52)
right? But I am sorry that this affected you in that way. And then maybe a later time, like, say, like, but that doesn't negate. I do want you to remember the things that we did do that, you know, were were good for us. But I do want you to understand I was doing my best at that time and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't malicious. There was no malintent behind it. There wasn't abuse it's intent behind that, right? And that's on the the lower end of the spectrum. Now healing
for actual abuse, right, that's that is gonna be even harder. I mean it should be along the same vein, but it depends on what capacity the person, the abuser has to actually say they're sorry.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:32)
Right, right. That makes sense. And now now on the side of healing, that developmental trauma, abuse, whatever, what does that what does that look like in EMDR?
Jessica Connell (13:46)
Yeah. So I was I I did training at the Laurel Parnell Institute. I did training in one and two and you know some everybody does different trainings. I think some use the actual eye movement whereas Laurel Parnells uses the tapping. and actual training is
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:01)
Okay. I didn't know
that I am so like f funny enough, I'm so new to EMDR. I've only done other kinds of trauma treatments, so I've like I didn't even know those those are two different types of EMDR. Interesting.
Jessica Connell (14:14)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:15)
Okay. So there's one there's one eye movement and then there's some that are taps. Okay.
Jessica Connell (14:18)
Yeah. I in in the trainings we would actually tap on each other's legs, right? So there are I think there are even I I don't do them, but there are even like tapping things that we could do to calm somebody down in a moment. like little tools to calm someone down. but I use these these tappers, they're called tappers, and they buzz back and forth. And they're actually have a really nice calming effect to them. But the bilateral
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:41)
Like something that what is it? It it sticks on you or something or
Jessica Connell (14:45)
hands.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:47)
okay,
cool.
Jessica Connell (14:48)
back and forth and I can adjust whether how fast it goes back and forth, how long the bugs is, they're they're just vibrating your hands. But it is has a a nice calming effect to it. but tapping because is is supposed to have the calming effect also, right? If you can do it yourself, because the bilateral movement helps to release the trauma from the nervous system as we think about things. So with with the EMDR that I was trained in,
what we do is is we set a scene. This is just a high level example, but set a scene of the trauma. So say the trauma, let's like use a a a bigger developmental trauma that like would would affect somebody in a relationship, you know, in their relationships going forward would be, you know, a feeling of safety. You know, if dad was abusive and mom had to call the cops on him and he kept coming into the house like kept coming and knocking on the door and the cops had to keep calling.
Right, set set a scene for that, right? And you know, house is a mess or something and you know, and it's just a a really, really scary place, you're hiding in the corner. That's a scene for that. And then what we do is we bring in resources. Three wise figures, three protective figures, and three nurturing figures. Now we tap these in before starting a session. and they could be characters from a book. A lot of people use Dumbledore as their wise figure.
But the idea is to bring in these figures and they're gonna as as you're doing the tapping, we close our eyes, set the scene and kinda go through like a a daydream like s like state, like and kinda get really creative with it where you're bringing in your your resources, they're saying to you what what it is that you're needing to hear, they're protecting you in some way. If it's like a big bear getting in the way and saying, No, you're not coming back here, what we wanna do with trauma, we wanna put people back in control and kind of say like this this should have never happened.
Right. So in these scenes, this should have never happened. Here is how we can make it safe and here's what we wish would have happened. Obviously it's not real always real figures. Sometimes it is. But it is all made up and creative, right? And created by created by the the client. but as we're doing that, it releases the trauma from from the nervous system with the bilateral tapping and going through that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:08)
Okay, that is so cool. All right. Can you give an example case of what that looks like and what like releasing from the nervous system looks like in someone's life?
Jessica Connell (17:21)
Yeah. so I'll continue with that case. so like let's let's use that case of dad dad is super abusive and mom asks him to leave and he won't leave and he's coming to the house, you know, threatening to kill everybody and maybe also, you know, tearing up the house and you know the the client is hiding in a corner as their child self, right? So let's say
protective figure is a bear.
And their like nursing figure was their like grandmother, you know, that has since passed and their wise figure was let's just use Dumbledore, right? And so the bear like said the the bear comes in and you know, stops dad. You're not gonna do this anymore, you're gonna stay here. And dad is actually scared and he stopped. Right? And then, you know, grandma comes in and says, This is this isn't what should be happening.
Right, goes over to mom also and says, you know, you need to stop letting this happen, right? Like you need to protect her. And mom's saying, I know, I know, I need to stop let this hap stop letting this happen. Bear is protecting, you know, and and bear is having the talk, you are not gonna do this anymore. You are terrorizing your family. You need to go away. And Dad is is is recognizing and like seeing, you know, them in the corner all scared and everybody's scared and then like has like a revelation because he's scared in that moment.
You know, and then, you know, Dumbledore kinda comes in and and, you know, says, like, this is the way things should be, you know? And so the releasing of the nervous system. So if this like feeling is this of unsafety is constantly with us, so say, you know, like in a relationship somebody is is constantly triggered by just a little bit of uncertainty, a little inconsistency, a little bit of of of a little bit of
like a lack of control or their partner being upset with them. that could be from being scared that dad if we'd upset dad, he was gonna come in in this rateful way. Right? And so that trigger was always coming up in a relationship, like I can't disappoint you, or I I have to brace and then and then who knows how that comes out. Maybe it is, you know, they brace and they get mad and they get bigger back, right? Whatever that that behavioral maladaptive behavior
That comes in from that trauma could be released and say, okay, that this person is actually safe. And through talking in combination with talk therapy, we talk through like where this is coming from, how this can help you. You know, I guide my clients in in okay, where it what if if they d if they get stuck, you know, where do we think we should go next? Maybe we bring in nurturing figure to say, you know, X, Y, and Z to you to make you feel safe. so in tandem with
with talk therapy around the traumas, we get to know kind of what where the maladaptive behavior is and how we can set a scene to try to release where that came from.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:21)
That's so interesting. So so they're if they're with their if they're with their partner and they get triggered, they can bring back that memory of or like the the visual of the bear or any of these figures, or is it like you do it in session and then you feel the effects af outside?
Jessica Connell (20:39)
Supposedly you feel you do it in session and you feel the effects outside, right? But
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (20:45)
if somebody slows down and is actually like, yeah, he's not the bear, and we talk about like using that narrative, if we can, you know, kind of pull apart the emotional, physical feelings, right? Of like the trigger and then be able he's not the bear. Let's you know, let's let's stop here. So it can kind of it can work both ways. But but
I think the the most stark response is that it's not this immediate physical emotional reaction anymore because
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:13)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (21:14)
it has it works itself out of the nervous system. And it could be that I mean, I'm not saying it happens in one time, but because there could be multiple scenes like this that we have to kind of work through to get to a place of actually feeling that safety.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:25)
Gotcha, gotcha. And when when the session is happening and you're having them imagine the different figures coming in, are you narrating that or are they doing that? Like how how does it go in that?
Jessica Connell (21:39)
So they go about like go in and they start to like do their daydream and and they're narrating themselves quietly. And by around like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:48)
Hmm.
Jessica Connell (21:49)
four or five minutes if I don't hear if I don't hear from them, if they don't come out and look at me and tell me what's going on, I'll be like, What's going on? Right. I try to let them stay in for as long as they want, but usually after a few sessions kind of know like, okay, this is what's happening, right? And I don't now I don't know where to go next. Okay, so what do what are you needing now?
Right. So then we talk about what are you needing now and then we say like go with that and then they go back in and they do like another five minutes or so. They get to another point in the scene. And then they hang out. And I'm like, What do you need to wrap it up? Right. When you need to wrap it up and feel safe. There's usually kind of like a wrap up area, where they're like, Okay, I'm I'm kinda done with that. That's all I needed in that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:30)
Mm. Do you stay with one memory or do you go in different memories?
Jessica Connell (22:36)
Usually this scene is more of one memory, but it sometimes it's not even memories that they know to be true, right? They're it could be like I have a feeling that this happened. They're they're like, I don't I'm not actually sure if that's true or not, or if I'm remembering it correctly. It's however it's pulling up for them is how it's affecting them, right?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:57)
Interesting.
Jessica Connell (22:57)
Yeah. So sometimes we can actually create the memory a little bit and like where do you think it would have been? You know, it kind of goes go through like
you know, if you're if you're having a little bit of of an experience of like, you know, it could have been like somebody making fun of me or something like that or bullying me, okay, where would that have been? You know, where and like which school were you in? What age do you think you were? That type of a thing. So usually they can come up with some parts of the memory.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:24)
That's helpful because I remember when I was doing prolonged exposure and there were some patients who were like, you know, I don't I can't give you a full memory of what happened. I I I have fuzzy memories. It's I'm not even sure if it's true. I you know, as I say it, it doesn't actually seem like a trauma. So th I I was always curious like how how like what how do we work differently with a trauma that's like
I remember it was an incident, it was an accident, it was something terrible that an assault, something very defined versus kind of these fuzzy feelings of like dad was unsafe.
Jessica Connell (24:04)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I think that it I mean it's protective, right? I think a lot of people bury that memory and they really, really cannot recall it. So it's not necessarily about like coming up with the the actual memory, but like you said, the I I felt like dad was unsafe. Like what is the feeling around it? Let's try to come up with something that I I think could possibly be why, you know, and and like maybe go into like a small scene also and then see like what comes up for them. Where are you?
You know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna bring back this memory, but it can help kind of form like what we're trying to get at. This is why I think dad has always felt so unsafe. How why does he feel unsafe right now?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:46)
Gotcha.
Wow, that's so interesting. Question about the taps and the and the and the eye movements. I've always learned to be critical because at the time that I was learning about this, the research shows that the eye movements or the taps or lights, wh whatever they were, wasn't like hugely more helpful than like
all the other parts of what you're saying, which is like talking through something scary, like reimagining it, feeling more in control and safe around it. Do you see like a major effect of those taps or I see it all the time on like Instagram and I'm like, really? Like tapping, you know, but is there is there science behind it? Have you seen like a a big difference?
Jessica Connell (25:33)
There is science behind it and I I I I hesitate to repeat it, but I just the high level, this is what I remember. Is that the research started where there was a professor that like something traumatic happened, they like ran out into like a like a a school park or something like that and started moving their eyes back and forth really, really quickly and like felt like it calmed them down. And that's where the research began. That's
That's probably a really bad recollection of what what that was, but that's like the gist. That's where the the the bilateral stuff came in, I I believe. but I do think the tappers, I mean they're they're they buzz back and forth, right? Like you sit there and you kind of really can melt into the couch. So I really do see like the relaxation of those. I think that they, you know, think that because they they stimulate like this sense of calm also.
I think there ha there's probably something to do with that. Whereas like just tapping, like we're also using ourselves. Right? When when in the training, the person that was h doing the EMDR with the other person was actually tapping. Right? So I think like to tap ourselves I think uses maybe a little bit more of a different part of like our brain where we're like doing it ourselves, so it's not as helpful as like something external, like tappers. Don't
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:56)
I assume
that was mostly like distraction. Like I think if any like if I heard music
Jessica Connell (26:59)
So it's something.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:02)
or you know, like if I if I was touching into some really intense emotions and t intense memories, having like some kind of stimulation, music or something would keep me in the in the present. But is there something about
the tap back the bilateral movements?
Jessica Connell (27:20)
There's definitely something about the bilateral movement. I I can explain the science behind it, but there's a lot of things, that use like bilateral sound and stuff too, that's supposed to be calming. I can see this would be like kind of more grounding. I think we're that we're talking about
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:33)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (27:34)
a different technique in than that one, right? Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:37)
Yeah. Whatever works works. I'm just always curious,
like, can I do like this and have that you know what I mean? Like how how specific to the movements or the taps or the lights or the eye movements like make it make that much of a difference for the nerve system?
Jessica Connell (27:53)
I think it I mean the the bilateral the bilateral part of it is what works is what works the trauma out of the nervous system. Right. I think the I'm not really sure 'cause I'm not I don't know much about the the actual light, but it it it that does something as well. Wouldn't work with the way that I'm telling you 'cause you have to go into like this like daydream like state, right? With your eyes open doesn't necessarily work so much as you're following something. But there's definitely something to that bilateral stimulation that does release
stuff from our our nervous system.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:25)
interesting. I'm gonna look up the the research on this because I wanna understand like what what about that. Anyway, that's just the the old
Jessica Connell (28:31)
Okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:31)
academic in me who's like, huh, what what if I do this? Or like two or th anyway.
Jessica Connell (28:38)
probably are a lot more different things bilaterally that we can can do for ourselves we just don't know about yet. Or there
Dr. Kibby McMahon (28:43)
I know,
yeah. Now I'm like I wanna look into it.
Developmental
traumas, how can they affect relationships? I I'm shocked when I talk to people and they had no idea that something was a trauma response, or they thought maybe I didn't meet the right person, or maybe something's wrong with me, or I can't deal with intimacy. But like what are the typical signs of someone who has had a developmental trauma that's affecting, you know, their relationship?
Jessica Connell (29:18)
No
there's all different ones. I mean I mean it it doesn't necessarily have to be a trauma, right? But it could be even be things that like have shaped us that obviously come into play in relationships. The families like you know, loud families versus like families who don't express emotion, right? Like somebody from each one of those is going to express themselves in very different ways, right? And if we were taught emotions were bad and another person's like, I came from a loud family, all we do is yell, right? But
that is actually going to be even like that's not necessarily trauma, but like that is a developmental state that is either comfort, a comfort state, or is something that's kind of missing. Like so not to not have emotional language, we don't talk about that, right? Like there's there's something that emotionally isn't great about that either. Right. So to hear someone loud could be very triggering where they shut down, like that's not okay, that's not okay, because that's what they were taught was not okay.
Right. And then somebody who doesn't emote you don't care. You don't care about me. You don't care about me. And that could become like the kind of quintessential tiger and the turtle. Right? Like I can't deal with this.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:27)
I've never heard of that. That tiger and the turtle? No, that's great. I've heard pursuer
withdraw and you know those kind of like but tiger and turtle. I like that.
Jessica Connell (30:35)
Yeah.
Withdraws into their shell because they're not used to having, you know, kind of like that emotional emotional dysregulation. They want to stay away from emotional dysregulation where tiger's like, it's okay to be emotion emotionally dysregulated, right? Like, come out here. It's okay. It's okay, right? But he's not that turtle's not coming out. Right. And so I mean, there's so many things, for like examples I could give, you know, like a parent who
some somebody who is is also like emotionally dysregulated thinks that they need to be loud in order to be heard because they were never heard by a parent. Right? A a person that acts out because they didn't get attention for a parent. Who knows how many different ways the person can act out, right? Like they need attention, whether it's like then seeking attention outside of the of the relationship and they can't understand why they continue to s seek attention outside of the relationship. and that causes problems. There's so many, many different things that
are happening in our relationships that are that are either like that can be triggered by certain developmental traumas that we went through or just kind of how we are shaped in our upbringing, then we're not recognizing that there is kind of this like innate response that we do have to kind of catch and work out and understand where it's coming from.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:53)
Mm, gotcha. thinking about the tigers and the turtles, something that I've been hearing more lately is more from the tigers, but the turtles too. they say, Hey, in in a relationship, either with my partner, with my mom or someone someone close, they should be able to take the way I I I should be able to express my emotions loudly, right? Like,
What I'm hearing a lot is a a tiger and turtle, like let's say a couple. One of them gets, as you said, triggered by, I'm just ending I'm angry, I'm expressing my I'm frustrated, blah, blah. And that person withdraws and is a little, you know, shocked and shut down by that. But then the tiger, the the person who's like yelling, says, I wanna be able to express my feelings genuinely to my partner. What do you say about that? That's just like a
question that I've gotten a couple times recently.
Jessica Connell (32:55)
You should be able to express yourself genuinely, but if your partner can't hear it in the way that you're expressing it, is is it effective to communicating? No, right? And so it's okay to be able to express your emotions and and send the same message across without a tone that's going to shut your partner down. Right? So I think it's it's about learning how to effectively communicate based on how your partner can hear you.
always a little bit of meeting in the middle, like, okay, so why are you shutting down at that point, right? Like so can you understand that if I do get a little heightened, it doesn't mean that, you know, I am gonna jump at you or that I am as angry as you think I am or that I've disappointed you so badly in this way, right? I think you have to understand what the shutting down is as well. But I do think like we do have to be able to communicate with our partner in a way that is also respecting their boundaries as well.
if we can't communicate that and and get them settled in that like, I'm just gonna be loud, right? I don't think it's necessarily fair to just be like, Well, I'm just gonna be this way and I'm not gonna change and just want your partner to to change. So I think it's important to be like, what is it about the way that I'm saying it that is not getting through to you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:11)
Hmm. I like that question. What is it about the way I'm saying it? It's not getting through to you. I like that. I like that way of thinking about it. How have you seen EMDR affect relationships? Like can it I I'm maybe I just 'cause I'm hearing more people who are idef identifying as like I have complex PTSD, I can't get close to someone. The sound of someone getting like a a tiger scares me. how can
How
can EMDR change that?
Jessica Connell (34:41)
Well and I think like something deeper like this feeling that we're talking about of like like a like a just a feeling of not being safe where like people aren't safe and that they're going to turn around and hurt me. Something like having a parent with a personality disorder and you weren't safe because you didn't know what you were gonna get, you know, especially like borderline personality disorder, right? Like one second, you know, you're being praised and the next second you're you're being scolded and yelled at and, you know, you're the most wrong you've ever been in your life, right? There's no
safety in who you are in that, right? And so like this feeling of safety from other people, especially in relationships, when there's any sort of inconsistency can come up in a really, really heightened way. Right. And then there's also a lot of distrust in that. Okay, well, if there's inconsistency, how do I trust where where does this person lie? Right. And then I think it can it can go back to, well, my mom or my dad didn't provide me that safety. And it was a lot of that inconsistency. So I couldn't trust
And I couldn't go to them, right? And so to not have a parent to be able to go to doesn't create a safe place really anywhere. Because that is that's where you're supposed to be able to go. That's the deepest place you're supposed to be able to go is to parent. Right. And so there is a lot of distrust and a lot of keeping it at arm's length with the partner, even if they are now a safe partner. And so I've I've worked through
just kind of those scenes like we're talking about with a parent that, you know, was so inconsistent, one minute one minute yelling, one minute threatening, that kind of a thing. And kind of going through its scenes and and making it a little bit putting the person kind of more in control, bringing in their resources, putting them in control, saying that like seeing that that just because they weren't the safe place, that some of their resources could be the safe place in those scenes.
help them be able to say like as we kind of worked through who their new partner really was that this is an actual safe person for you and that that we do need to actually start trusting in the words that they're saying.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:51)
That's that's tricky because how do you how when you're talking about safe, how do you define safety in a relationship? Just because I feel like people are more sensitive to it recently. And like if the example that you were saying that we were talking about, the tiger and the turtle, the tiger might not be the abusive father that they used to have, so to speak. But yeah, they're they're loud, they they're they're angry, they're more expressive.
Jessica Connell (37:21)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:21)
And that feels scary to their nervous system, right? So how
is that husband husband? I made an assumption. is that partner safe or what what does it mean to be safe?
Jessica Connell (37:35)
When it's when we're talking about something where there are tones and behaviors that need to be changed in the actual couple for communication, right? At that at that point, no, that person is not safe because they are actually triggering they're they're they're triggering developmental traumas and this person does not like the heightened reaction, right? So to them
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:54)
Right, right.
Jessica Connell (37:54)
they're they're not safe, right? I guess I would define safety is like this this feeling of that I could trust that there's there's comfort there that
You know, I can tell this person they're really gonna hear and see me for what I need. And they are going to turn toward me and say, I see you, I hear you. I'm going to try to give you what I what you need as much as possible. Right? I think that that is a really important foundation. Obviously it's a little more complicated than that, but I think safety is like really being able to be in this person and know that they're not going to try to hurt me any in any malicio malicious way.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (38:34)
Even
the the loud person is not trying to be malicious. They might just talk loudly, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:41)
Right.
Right. And I like that the way of thinking about it that the person is at least trying or just because, you know, s in couples and families and relationships, it does get tricky because let's say, yeah, that tiger husband, so to speak, tiger partner is just loud, doesn't mean t doesn't mean harm, but just expresses frustration from work with road rage and that triggers the other person, then
Jessica Connell (39:09)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:09)
Sometimes I do get stuck as a, you know, as a therapist or coach where I'm like, okay, who needs to change here? Like if that if one side really can't help it, like every time they hear a loud someone yelling and they're just
Jessica Connell (39:25)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:25)
triggered, is it on them to ask people to be quiet or is it on them to learn learn to heal from that and like tolerate the the loudness? So I don't think there's any right answer. I'm just like
It gets it it gets like tricky, right? Where it's like people just trigger each other.
Jessica Connell (39:42)
But I think
I think I think it takes two to tango. And they're there probably not everybody it's nothing's like, you know, one for one, right? Like one partner's probably able to kind of self reflect and have self more self awareness and empathy than another partner. It's probably never gonna be exactly the same. So one person's probably gonna change a little bit more than the other one, but
In that scenario, I think both need to understand and change, right? So we need to under s because after years and years of tiger husband, like you know, like being really big and it could feel like you're just trying to control me, you're just trying to control me, you're not listening to me, right? So now that narrative is malicious, right? So now I'm thinking that he's not listening, right? And like the narrative is he's not listening, he's trying to control me.
So on and so forth, right?
Whereas he's just getting loud because he wants to be seen and heard. And there is nothing malicious and not trying to be controlling in it in an abusive way. There's nothing about it, right? So we have to work out both sides. So to empathize with, okay, I'm just loud because like this is what I'm used to. I w I understand it triggers you. I will try to soften the this is I'm like this because my mom always yelled and blah blah blah. It has a little bit more empathy to it to for the other person, right? To be like, okay, let's work out the narrative that you are doing.
This on purpose to hurt me and to to get like
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:09)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (41:09)
your own satisfaction or your own way, kind of a thing. No, this
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:13)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (41:14)
is just like my automatic response. Right. So okay, I not need to see you not as like mean or malicious or trying to hurt me. Let's undo that. You come down a little bit from
knowing that the person is very triggered by it, and that's where we're kind of meeting in the middle a little bit. Because if this person stays in that place of distrust of you're actually trying to hurt me, no change here is really going to be seen that much.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica Connell (41:43)
And people always
revert, right? I always say like progress is not something completely going away, especially like in the first parts of the work, right? It's say over a month, it was happening ten times, it goes down to five, it goes down to two, right? That's progress. But, you know, we're human. Sometimes we're gonna mess
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:01)
Yeah.
Jessica Connell (42:01)
up.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:02)
Yeah. How long does EMDR usually last for? How long? Is it a set
Jessica Connell (42:08)
Yeah, it really
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:08)
sessions or just like as much as they need or?
Jessica Connell (42:12)
Yeah, I don't like prescribe at the beginning. I just kinda say like we'll see how many scenes that you want to go through and then a lot of times there's also a lot of talk in between. So I
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:20)
Mm.
Jessica Connell (42:23)
I I don't necessarily say like how many sessions it'll be.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:27)
got it. So you have like the EMDR sessions that are like more immersive, sounds like.
Jessica Connell (42:32)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:33)
and then you might process it in between. It's fun.
Jessica Connell (42:37)
If it feels necessary,
right? So a lot of times it's like like we'll start talking about what's going on and and that actually becomes more more of the session and they're okay with not doing the MDR. Or sometimes they'll just tell me, I mean, I just want to do MDR today. Sure, let's do it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:53)
Cool. Is there anyone that EMDR is not great for? That you they come in through your door and you're like, that's not gonna work or
Jessica Connell (43:02)
Well, I think there has to be a level of understanding of like where this stuff is coming from, how it's it's triggering the person, right? And not just like
like just completely jumping into one scene or another, but like really getting a history. somebody coming in and just being like, I just want to work this out. I don't wanna understand where it came from or, you know, like really not gonna be doing the work. It's definitely not just like a a nothing in therapy is a miracle, you know, as you know. Magic
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:33)
Fix it. Just get rid
of it.
Jessica Connell (43:34)
wand and I can fix you, right? Like it all requires the work. You know, it's s like like physical therapy, you have to do the work in order for your muscles to feel better, right? In therapy you have to do the the mental work in order for things to start feeling better. It could take a while.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:50)
Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. So so people coming in being like, magic magic wand out, this this feeling of unsafety. Got it.
Jessica Connell (43:57)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:58)
That's not gonna work. In our last few minutes, is there anything you wanna tell people, like a message you wanna get out or something that you want people to know?
Jessica Connell (44:12)
Yeah, I mean I I think around EMDR and trauma work and just know that like we've all gone through
Stuff right, and a lot of times what happens is we don't want to talk about it because we feel so shameful, we feel like we're alone in it, and our our shame buttons keep getting hurt and or they're kind of big. What we want to do is is actually talk about it to shed the shame so this way we can shrink that shame button, right? And I think through therapy, through talking about it with people that you know, you will see that people a lot of people will relate to what you're going through, and a lot of people have similar and thoughts and feelings, right? And I think through through
therapy, letting go of that shame, whether it's from a trauma, whether it's from something like a lot of people are shameful that like this person in when I was 11 bullied me and said all these terrible things and I cannot get this out of my head. Right. And this still affects me to this day. And they think that they're the only ones experiencing that. That is absolutely not the case. We all have these these little milestone core memories and and core little traumas that shape us throughout the way.
Some are bigger than others, and I don't wanna say that that that's not the case, right? And some are catastrophic events, but you know, they talk about big T, little T's, all the T's in between. No T is small enough to not work on.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:36)
I like that. I also love the term shame button. I haven't heard of that, but I'm gonna use I mean you got you've given me some like good good like
Jessica Connell (45:44)
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:45)
talking points or little little phrases. I love that. Shame button. Wonderful. Well, how can people find you if they're they're listening to this and they go, my god, I wanna I wanna do it.
Jessica Connell (45:56)
Yeah.
You can come to our website. It's confidentmindsnyc dot com. you can call us at nine one seven seven two seven one four three five. And you can just Google Confident Minds Psychotherapy and Coaching or Jessica Connell.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:12)
Thank you so much. I'll definitely put those links in the show notes. So if anyone's looking for that, you could just look in the description and they'll be able to find you. Thank you so much. This is so cool. I'll see you.
Jessica Connell (46:23)
This was so great. Bye.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:26)
I'll see you later. See you l next week, little helpers.