Ep. 158- Season 5 Wrap Up: Beating Cancer, Becoming a Psychologist, and Leaping into the Next Chapter

Sep 10

What happens when the hamster wheels we've been running on suddenly stop spinning? In this raw and deeply personal Season 5 finale, we pull back the curtain on our own mental health journeys over the past year, revealing the profound transformations that occur when life forces you to confront your deepest wounds.

Dr. Kibby shares her post-cancer emotional reckoning, describing how surviving treatment was just the beginning of her healing journey. The conversation turns to our viral self-hatred episode, exploring what happens when you finally see the wounds that have defined your life- and the grief that comes with that awareness.

Meanwhile, Dr. Jacqueline reflects on her transformative year completing psychology internship in New York, finding healing and validation after years of feeling misaligned in the public eye.

We dive into fertility struggles, entrepreneurial fears, and the startling gender divide we've witnessed on social media. Dr. Kibby talks about what it's been like to build KulaMind for loved ones of people with mental illness, and stumbling upon the epidemic of women desperate for help with their angry, alcoholic, and shut-down partners.

Have topic suggestions for Season 6? Email us at kibby@kulamind.com. We'll be back in early October 2025 with fresh insights and conversations to support you in supporting your loved ones through mental health challenges.

Resources:

If you need help dealing with your loved ones' mental health, emotional or addiction issues, join the KulaMind Community. We hold your hand through the hardest moments, teach you every proven tactic we know, and make sure you NEVER feel alone again.

Follow @kulamind on Instagram or for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:08
Hey, little helpers. It's Dr Kibby here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you love. KulaMind is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs or setting boundaries, even if you're just curious and want to chat about it. Book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get started. Thank you, and enjoy the show.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:40
Hi Little Helpers, Welcome to our wrap-up episode. We are wrapping up season five of A Little Help for our friends, going on about a month and a half of a break, and we just like to do these retrospectives where we look back at what we've learned this year and also, like personal stuff, the changes that have happened over the last year, which are numerous. So, kippy, what's on your mind from the last year?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:08
I mean, we just did a juicy episode on your whole grad school experience and that's going to be released in the beginning of season six, so check that out. I'm like, oh, like, basically like we have to comb through to make sure that it is everything in there is kosher.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:27
so there's a lot of stuff in there too. It's a grad school episode, could be um yeah. I mean, I also like about things about my own life. So talking to you on that grad school episode, that um shock and terrify me so really, oh man, I was.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:44
I thought it would be like relieving, I guess, like we'll talk after okay, okay, um.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:52
so we started the season last year, 2024, in October. I was just finishing my cancer treatment and getting um surgery and it like because, like settling into being a CEO and co founder of a company and co founding the cool of mine community and the app, and going through, like after the trauma of cancer, kind of realizing like like it's funny, going through cancer, you're in survive, like literally survival mode. So you're just going through like okay, I have to get this treatment and that treatment, this treatment, but then I feel like the emotional effects of it came out afterwards. So I actually think that probably this season, october to now, was emotionally probably one of the harder years that I remember. So I I kind of like dug into my own trauma and tried to understand that and digest that a little bit more, um, and I think it reflected in our episodes on, you know, toxic relationships and family dynamics and emotional immaturity and of course narcissism.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 3:07
Yeah, so we um yeah you have more personal than ever this year, and a lot of people responded really powerfully to it too. I think it was an episode the self-hatred episode that meant a lot to people and a lot of feedback about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:24
Yeah, that was really scary to do because I was in a phase where I was like spiraling that day. I was triggered and kind of like awash with, like oh, I realized that all the things that I've dealt with as a kid, it's funny. Trauma is really funny, especially childhood trauma. Because you know it intellectually. You're like, oh God, my childhood was so, so hard and I know I have all these weird symptoms because of it. Like I'm, I'm like really insecure in relationships or blah, blah, blah. Right, you, you might know intellectually, but there are some times in therapy or moments of insight where you're like, oh, my god, like I went through trauma, like it didn't, and it clicked for me only after oh yeah, because I got into an argument with my mom after I got my last surgery, my most major surgery, when I was one of the most vulnerable times in my life, and it just brought up all this, all these old memories.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:22
And then I was so stupid that I went to a clinical training about like how to work with children who were abused as children and like family therapy, training of like, like physical, sexual, all sorts of violence, and so sitting there for two days hearing stories of kids going through trauma brought up some of my trauma and I was like fully like, oh my God, like I. I was one of those kids, right, so that was just a whole that was fun. So the self hatred episode I was like spinning and we're. I don't forgot what we're going to talk about that day. But we decided to pivot and say like, let me, let's just talk about this, let's talk about what I'm going through and that was really crazy, do you feel?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:11
I mean, it has been a journey this year of like really kind of um, uncovering the emotional memories and realizing the impact that that trauma has had on you and your identity and how you feel about yourself, and then kind of saying for the first time that you deal with self-hatred and it is interesting because we had a self-hatred expert on before that and then suddenly you're like wait, this is me. Do you feel differently today?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 5:43
I would like to say that I am all cured, like now that I see it and forgiven myself and given myself grace and done all the therapy things. But it goes in and out. I think that the biggest change now is that my inner workings, like all my neuroses that I have on a daily basis, like trying to work really, really hard on a big, impossible professional goal and beating myself up over it, like why am I not good enough, why I'm so behind other people to do better, like I'm realizing how much of that is like a constant soundtrack in my mind and I think I knew that, that. But I'm like watching it on a daily basis. So I think I'm more aware of it and more aware of like the gravity of it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 6:35
I think, like I think I was so attached to and like secure in my coping mechanisms of being strong and cure in my coping mechanisms of being strong and you know self-sufficient and professionally you know strong that like having a kid and cancer stripped all that away so hard that I was like well, I was really had to confront all of these. You know the effects of trauma and I don't, I don't, I can't say that I'm like cured. Now I struggle in on a daily basis. But I'm much more aware of it now, in a new way, like I've taken a step back and I've been like, oh, I have been wearing orange goggles for the past 39 years. I took off the goggles or threw them away, but I could see that I know that the world is not orange anymore. So yeah, so I'm at like a stage of healing. That's like I I I've been grieving it more lately and seeing it for what it is.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:35
So I mean, I would be shocked if you were like I love myself.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:39
Everything is great, I think seeing me too, man, I'm trying to get there with manifestation right.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:52
The last episode of like, like thinking my way out of my trauma. I'm lovable, I'm good enough. I think seeing the goggles is where I mean I would consider that a massive win if I were a therapist right and my patients had to be able to say, like, this isn't automatic, this isn't reality. This is an automatic reality.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:06
I still buy into it a lot, but I can see why and I can see what's going on and I can at least begin to question it yeah it, there is a it's funny, we're just talking to our friend about this like there is a sadness and a bummer like a resignation when you see that, because I think this we get into these like coping mechanisms, these like hamster wheels of like here is how I compensate for my poor wound.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:34
Right, I do this thing, I'm good at school, I chase this, I do that like I have this addiction. And when you see it for what it is, as a coping mechanism of like, you know just something that's always there. There is this bummer of like oh, this hamster wheel doesn't go anywhere, this is just a hamster wheel. I thought this was like the road, like my marathon to like across the country, but it's literally just a hamster wheel, just a hamster wheel. Yeah, and I'll get off this one, I'll get on another one. So it's just like seeing it for what it is kind of takes the hope away that the hamster, running on a hamster wheel, will actually get you forward.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 9:15
I mean yeah, but yeah, I mean I see. So I see so many clients who, like you know, beat up on themselves and I think the hope is that and I do with body image too, you know I think the hope is that, like, if they punish themselves enough and, you know, put enough attention on the problem, then like that'll motivate them to change things. And it doesn't seem to work, and so at least understanding like I think this is kind of a faulty process, it's not, it's actually not going to take me towards my dreams is at least the first major step, like the first step that has any promise of changing things. But it is hard to take that next step. Yes, I still beat myself up, but so do you yeah, it's like, well then, what am I gonna get?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:58
on another, like I'm gonna run somewhere else. Like, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to, yeah, it's hard to let go because also it's like it's hard, it's hard to yeah, it's hard to let go because also it's like it's such a part of your identity. Right, like I'm on this hamster wheel and I'm a person who runs on this hamster wheel and you, you don't know what, what else you're going to do. Right, you're going to relax. Are you going to forgive yourself?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 10:20
Like yeah, yeah, I mean accepting. Yeah, I mean accepting right, accepting my. My body feels like that would never somehow motivate me to like work out more, have a healthier.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:39
To be like I'm beautiful no matter what, no matter what shape and size I am, or by the way. Do you feel like you are more concerned with your body image these days, or are you more vocal about it, or is this like has always been? The case, because we've been talking about it more lately, like you know explicitly, but I was wondering if this is a change for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:02
It's because of the weight gain.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:03
I mean for the weight gain mean before the weight gain, I was still obsessed with my body, but it was more about my body shape than weight. I I would have like target areas of my body that I was obsessed with um, and then lipo took care of that in some ways. Um, and now it's more about like, whether the weight has gone to my face and destroyed my face, which I was always quite fond of. I actually never had insecurities with my face before um, but yeah, I think, I think that having my weight before I had like a a thing that I hated, but having my weight feel like it's taken out of my control I don't know if that was was the SSRI, or if that was age, you know, or if I changed behavior that that really freaked me out and kind of made me obsessive as well.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 11:55
Well, you had internship and you had a year in New York, something that you were yearning for in some ways, yearning for being at Duke and being at North and being in North Carolina. You're like, oh, there was a part of you that like missed it here. Yeah, you got to be here and you got, you know, internship. So what was that? What was that like for you?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 12:25
Yeah, I'm trying to kind of process it. I mean, I think what I first noticed when I got to New York was how low my tolerance for it had gotten. I started having, like my parents visited me in my first like week there or something, and I remember we went to the MoMA and I was like I cannot handle this. Like the crowds are driving me nuts. I was like I was having to do paced breathing. I was like I was. I was angry, like I was really. My nerves were really, really frayed. Um, and then you let me stay in your awesome place for a couple of months and that was miraculous, cause it was like a great area of town and it was just nice. And then I like moved into my real apartment and it just the area sucked and like the, it was really convenient subway wise. That was why it was chosen. Um, but you know, like I'm if anybody's on YouTube, like you can only see a little tiny bit of my bedroom, but my house is like palatial and that's not because Jace and I are rich, that's because we live in North Carolina and because I'm comparing it to my New York apartment, I just have way, way lower tolerance for the discomforts of New York and that really wore on me and I was. I was happy in a way because I didn't want to fall back in love of New York and that really wore on me and I was. I was happy in a way because I didn't want to fall back in love with New York, but I also didn't want to fall out of love with New York and I was really kind of teetering that line and I think I basically achieved that, where I'm like I don't think I could survive in New York unless I had a ton of money and could like buy myself space and never have to leave in the winter, like never have to go outside. But I still love New York, you know, and I felt this year really healed me in a way because, as we'll talk about in the grad school episode that you'll have to listen to in a month and a half, I did not feel comfortable at Duke.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 14:23
I immediately when I stepped foot in North Carolina, I was like I am not meant to be here, like nobody here gets me. I feel like I'm too much. I feel like I'm too loud. I need to tone myself down. Oh no, I've put myself down too much. Now people think I'm like insecure and quiet and weird and it's just, it was this five years of feeling uncalibrated? And then I step into New York and I'm like, oh there, I am. Like people like me again. I can be who I want to be. I can present the way I actually am. I had like an amazing training director at my internship site who was also my PTSD supervisor and she like, literally, if I think about her for more than three seconds I'll choke up, like she just like really rescued my self-esteem and liked me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:13
She liked me, she admired me, she didn't think I was a walking liability. She, you know, and like I'm not, I don't necessarily want to compare her to like like my advisor got the person that needed to be sculpted for five years, you know. So he got like a, an unformed mass of clay and he had to like he had a harder job of it than she did. So I'm I'm not trying to like, do a contrast there, but you know she got more of a finished product, but one that had had her self-esteem like, but one that had had her self-esteem like kind of not destroyed, certainly, but hurt, you know, over a long time, not by Duke only, but like by the internet.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:58
And I just, you know, I just I would walk into her office and feel like I'm going to be like admired and accepted and just fundamentally liked for who I am and the work that I do and that meant the world to me, um, and that's just how I felt, you know, at my internship site for a year, like the patient population was tough, the Bronx, va is, I mean, just like uncomfortable place in various ways, um, but you know it was like really, really what I needed, various ways, um, but you know, it was like really, really what I needed. And I, just I, you know, most of my like 80% probably of my friends live in New York city, so I was back into my community, I was, you know, I was just rescued in certain ways. So that was really needed, so that was really needed. And now I'm glad to be in warm weather again and my big house with my boyfriend, except not really because I'm going to Africa tomorrow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 16:54
It's going to be so cool.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:59
What are you going to do in Africa? I'm literally going for five weeks with just a backpack and a sleeping bag, so I I'm gonna be on safari for 17 days actually. Then I'll be doing another safari for three days, so more like 20 days of camping and um, that is gonna be through zimbabwe and botswana and south africa, and then I'm gonna be volunteering at a conservation in namibia and that'll be the second safari, also going through the Namib desert, and I'm it's going to be awesome.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:29
It's going to be awesome.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:30
But it's like, oh my God, like when you have to actually go and do something, epic, it's makes you scared the day before.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:37
Write a journal. Write a journal Because, like I was just thinking that we should do some episodes when you come back about, you know, traveling to such a different place. You know so many things that could come up. But like, write a journal, you know, like actually physically get a little journal and write down where you went. You know what was like, because you're going to forget all the day-to-day stuff and you're going to look back on that and wish you had, like, like where did I eat on that Tuesday? Or like what, what?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:03
yeah, what was it like when I went to this store or whatever you know yeah, I mean my, my dream growing up was to be a zoologist or like a conservationist. So I just I want to get pregnant in a year. So I wanted a chance to volunteer on a conservation at least one time in my life before I had kids. Um, actually, funny enough, my training director she has a 12 year old or 13 year old and they like go volunteer on conservations a lot together. So I'm like maybe, maybe I'll do it again in my future. But yeah, um, it's a big year and you know, new York kind of reseduced me a little bit in the end. There, you know, it was like beautiful weather and that's it really. That's all it takes. Yeah, I, my first day back, I was a little dissociated and sad and I didn't want to show Jason that I was sad, because I just wanted him to experience me being happy to see him again. I was, but I was also grieving something. So there's that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 19:07
Yeah, I mean you just you just closed out a huge chapter in your life, like it, just like it flies by, but it was also like a better part of a decade. You know we're we were different people when we started grad school and and all this journey becoming psychologists, like it really was like transformative on so many levels and, you know, took us different, different like emotional spaces and challenges and physical locations, right, and you just finished all that, right. So it's just like, of course, there's like a like a adrenaline, letdown, grief, like it's done.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:39
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 19:39
This is you're in a new chapter of your life, which is going to be crazy.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:44
Yeah, I mean grad school's over, and that's crazy to think about. I can I've like I actually am Dr Trumbull now. It's not even like a well, in a month and a half is it the degree you've been conferred? Yet I'm like no, I'm Dr Trumbull. That's weird. I no longer am going to be like evaluated all the time. I'm never. I'm no longer going to like be underpaid, which is great. You know. That's like a really, really huge, huge relief that the work that I do will be compensated appropriately. Um, uh, yeah, I don't have to. I don't have to scrounge or what like. I can. I can build a savings account and a 401k and enter adulthood and, um, start like building something with Jason.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 20:35
So, this is being my last year, like before pregnancy. I don't. I don't know if that's, I don't know how that'll go, but um, and now that's a new frontier that you're looking at too. I don't know if you want to say anything about that, Cause I know it's been heartbreaking, yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:49
I mean, I'm kind of in a weird place today and you know I haven't shared this on the podcast yet but, um, we had been wanting a second and it was already second kid and it was already a grieving process that I couldn't get pregnant. It's not safe for me to get pregnant. I probably could if I wanted to, but it's not safe because it might bring my cancer back right, because my cancer feeds off of hormones. So I was like, okay, I'm going to have to do surrogacy and that's going to require IVF. So I had 22 eggs frozen from when I divorced my ex-husband and I went and got I'm sure there's like an episode where I talk about you know, freezing and all that but I had 22 eggs frozen and I was like, okay, good, that's that's, you know, that's secure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:48
And so I went into chemo and all my cancer treatment, um, being like, okay, I know that chemo is supposed to actually like really kill fertility and so women have to younger women have to preserve their fertility before going into chemo. And I was like, oh, I'm good, I'm fine. Well, I um I'm like, okay, finally finished with with all the cancer treatment and let's get started on this. Um making the second. And so I was just nervous and I said I want to do it in batches, I'm going to thaw 14 eggs first and then the other eight later, just in case. And I had frozen them in a like I was 34 and my husband and I got pregnant after that. So I was pretty confident, naturally, right, like I, I was pretty confident that we're a good genetic match and my eggs are okay or, you know, young. And then I was shocked. We were shocked to find out that, you know, we went through trying to fertilize those 14 eggs and none of themproof insurance policy meaning like this is a way to guarantee that you have another kid.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 23:11
Um, I'm hearing now more and more which I cannot believe, this, like I can't believe how much information you get after a tragedy, like no one tells you about these things, but but I'm hearing that more and more people are realizing that is not a guarantee that, um, they might say this to you when you do it freeze your eggs, but it doesn't really hit until later. But when you freeze eggs and then thaw them to try to make an embryos out of them, um, the thought they a lot of them die off. Yeah, and I didn't know that, like they're, basically you're freezing water bags, like you, basically, you know, and so it's so, they're so delicate that if they thaw they might die and not survive the thaw. Meanwhile, it is a lot more secure to freeze embryos. But if you don't have a partner right you, you don't, that that's not an option for you. So you know, 14 eggs are completely not not. You know, like nothing came out of it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:13
I was devastated. I was in Hawaii this summer when we got the news and I remember just like just being in like total shock, just sitting there with Alex and it just it just brought up all of the feelings that I had about when I, when I went through infertility with my first marriage, like you feel so confident and so like, okay, I, you almost picture it like, okay, I'm going to have a kid, I'm going to have a kid this time, I'm going to get pregnant this time, and then you get news that that is not what happens. Yeah, happened. Not. It wasn't just the freezing, like the thawing, it was just like they just didn't come out right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 25:18
I still have those eight left, but then I'm trying to do IVF right now, like I'm in the middle of my shots and because of chemo, I'm not responding that well. So I'm I don't know how many eggs I'm going to get, if I'm going to get any, and I don't know what that means. Like I I'm terrified of what if something's wrong and those eight are not going to happen? Uh, I didn't think about what it'd be like not to have a second biological child. You know we'll look into other options and I might have to just like sit with the possibility that there might be donor egg situations or I don't know. Like, but I'm at the end of my road with fertility and I and that is just like a horrible feeling where this is it? Like these eight eggs and whatever I get out of me now are my only chance of having a second biological child.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:06
Yeah, chance of having a second biological child. Yeah, I, yeah, I think that's the most. Um, I don't. I don't have the word like agonizing part sometimes about like fertility is that you get your hopes to. The rollercoaster is insane. You get your hopes up, you, you think, gosh, I've done the responsible thing. Responsible thing I froze my eggs.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:29
22 is a lot of eggs like I wouldn't have frozen more than that I have 18, you know, and I was like, yeah, 18 will be good for one kid, probably good for two kids, but attritionism, it's monstrous and just knowing that, like your actual chances are, you only have like another chance or two or something, is like sitting with that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:54
Yeah, that biological clock, yeah Like runs out and yeah, that's just like a sobering reality. It's just it's feels unfair. I'm like angry at cancer for taking this away from me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 27:07
I'm angry at like at myself for not being like have being able to tell the future and not freezing a million more. Right, but it, it is what it is and I just yeah. So I got the news yesterday that I were not getting that many follicles and we don't know how many eggs we're gonna get, and I asked him like can I do another round of this? He was like I don't recommend that, and so it just was like this is it, this is this is the end. So I just been like the past two days. I've just been like in not a great mood no shit no shit.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:47
I'm like I don't know how deeply you want to go to this, because if I mean fertility, we have done episodes on it but it's um, we're like working in the fertility clinic. It's just like it's. It's so agonizing, it's so it like consumes all of your attention. It brings up so much of all of your attention. It brings up so much of, oh you know, as women, we often think of ourselves as like future mothers and that's like number one role in life. And what does it mean if we can't have that?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:17
And then, like you, have one, but you'd always dreamed of having more, and everything that brings up and so many things you just have to grieve and like compromise on and get comfortable with and all of those like I get angry every time I see an instagram post. That's like you know, jennifer, like whoever had a baby when she was 43 and then whoever else had a baby when she was 45 you're not too old. Like you don't have to worry about it. I'm like you, you do have to worry about it. It sucks. I want to have this, like you know, power to the people, like attitude, but I don't want to see anybody like in your position, or I might be in this position in a few years. You know, because I'm starting late and then like 18 eggs is less than 22 and the att is crazy. And it's not. It's the most expensive and shittiest insurance policy ever.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:13
Yeah yeah, those stories of, like you know, camera diaz has like two kids at 44. I mean, first of all, like, what they don't say is that donor eggs she probably, who knows? Yeah, donor eggs and an immense amount of money. Yeah, I mean surrogacy. If it's not covered, it's like can be hundreds of thousands of dollars and it doesn't come like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:38
All of this fertility stuff doesn't come without like emotional and physical risks. Right, it's like it's so sad and painful and although I'm so grateful that we have those options, like my goodness, like I'm so grateful we have fertility, but I fertility treatments, but I, yeah, I'm kind of like I wish I wasn't so cavalier about and wish I didn't take it so much for granted in my twenties that like, oh, I'll have a kid later, I'll focus on my career. Now I'm like I could spend all my the rest of like, like you know, gosh willing. Like you know, my cancer, you know, stays away, but I could spend the next 30 years working on my career. I could start a new one right now. It's not gonna be ideal, it's gonna be hard or whatever, but I have no more eggs after this.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:25
Yeah right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 30:25
Like that's different. So I kind of wish that at least younger women knew that this wasn't like just really thought about it. I really thought about it before they were out of options.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:40
Yeah, I mean I can. I can hear you doing the thing that everyone does when they feel out of control, which is blaming themselves. I think you did everything you could have that within reason to do. I mean, you actually got married at a pretty young age. You tried getting pregnant years and years ago. It didn't work. You froze a bunch of eggs. You met another partner. You had, you know, you had a child. You could not have seen cancer coming. You had a child. You could not have seen cancer coming.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:10
You had your fertility, what seemed like shored up, and this just plain sucks and it's like it's so unfair that cancer keeps taking if anyone out there believes in manifestation or is is particularly skilled at spells, magic spells or affirmations, or like the secret or whatever as we debunked or like laughed at in the episode before. But now, if you believe in it, please wish me luck.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:39
To have the second, and I understand, I think it's I think it is helpful to think about, like I think I actually took in what you said a while ago when you talked about manifestation, of thinking about what it feels like, what that would feel like to that you know, picturing, picturing having a second child and what that feels like, and when I get out of it. You know that's part of what I'm trying to do, but also it makes me comfortable, more comfortable to say, you know, I did not expect my family and my having a kid to turn out like this. Like I, I thought I wasn't married to another person. I, I didn't foresee any of this, um, and you know what happened, happened. So I, you know how I, I, I know that we want a second and, however that comes, donor, egg, adoption, like you know, miracle, something like I, I have to be more, I have to be open to that and not just be like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:55
Well, how are my follicles tomorrow? You?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:56
know, one of the best gifts I think from my year at the fertility clinic was I would see I would have these patients and they would. They would talk about how meaningless their lives would be if they didn't have a kid or a second kid. And I had to be like. I had to look at myself and be like I don't, I don't want to feel that way, right, and telling myself like imagining a future where I don't have kids or where I only have one kid and figuring out how to be OK with that. Or you know, donor eggs or something like that. If I chose to do that, yeah, because it really sucks to have to do that in the moment. Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:43
Yeah, yeah, you don't know what you're going to grieve. Until you know it's too late.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:47
So yeah, yeah, I'm just so sorry it's. This is a situation where I feel like people can get uncomfortable because they just want to fix it and there's nothing to fix and that's so hard.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:03
Yeah, there's nothing to fix. I, I just hate those moments. Those moments Like it hit me two days ago when I got my ultrasound. And you know, when I first started the cycle, they were like, oh, okay, there's like. You know, there's like seven follicles, we're good.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:17
And then two days ago I could see the doctor, just almost like consoling me, like she was like, oh, it's still early, yet We'll, we'll see what the doctor will call you later after reviewing all the results, and I was like what's wrong? She was like, oh, I just maybe maybe there's some I can't see yet. You know, she was like like trying to make me feel better and I was like, why why do you seem pitying? Like why why do you look like that? And yeah, it's just, it's just a hard thing to swallow, it's just like. And I and I also, but I also at the same time now I'm looking at my son and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like I am so, so grateful I have, I am so grateful I had the opportunity to carry, get pregnant, breastfeed, have a biological child, literally all of those things I did not. There was a good period of time where I was not sure that that was in my future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 35:19
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:20
So I you know I'd be heartbroken here, but like I'm also very grateful, you know, very grateful for what I have.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 35:28
Yeah, and that's good and it also kind of sucks that you have to feel like it's okay to just feel bad. I saw that a lot with like second time moms who were going through fertility where they felt like they didn't deserve to feel as bad as they did because they had one kid, like they were one of the like quote unquote lucky ones.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:49
It's like it still sucks yeah, rigging, yeah, yeah, now there's, there's uh, yeah, there's no way around it. It's kind of well, we'll see, we'll see what happens. Yeah, right, we'll see what happens, but it's been, it's been an interesting year. Coming out of the cancer and like I funnel a lot of my like thoughts and energy into cool mind, which has been like also like a very healing experience in many ways, because I think kind of it's different from you that I you seem to always want to, you know, look forward to be on your own and be your own boss and not be like in an institution, and I love that. I actually like crave that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:35
I have like weird obsessive dreams about summer camp, like literally every dream, to the point where I'm like I'm like reinforcing it, like I think I'm talking about it so much that every night I have a dream that I'm like in a summer camp program, like with other adults and it's like in a hotel or a camp or there's some like, there's some like insular, contained community of people with a certain time period. That's like the theme of my dreams and it's because I think it's a lot of things, but I think it's because, like they're most most of my life. Was that right. Most of my life, most of your life, is school or like some kind of cohort or community or program that when you're out in the world, you're like I had a hard time being like what do I do now? Like what is the right way? Like can anyone tell me the right way to build a business?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:28
Can anyone, like I'm in a, I'm I'm very much with you on Okay, well, I do want to be. I do want to be alone in my own boss and everything. But that has more to do with like social stuff. But the the terror of being in a place where I've been told what to do for my whole life Now I'm not like that scares the shit out of me. There's no grownups.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 37:49
Yeah no, and I spent the past year or so. I'm still doing this, like I'm still looking for someone to tell me what the right way to go about this, and I'm intentionally doing things uncharted right, like I could easily just continue doing practice and research like theworn paths for psychologists. But I have chosen to um, found my own, co-found my own company, um incorporate AI, which no one knows what's going on. Um do like kind of an online coaching community program, which is also kind of a new concept of mental health, and to support loved ones like families, partners and caregivers of people struggling with mental health. So it's not like the normal, the normal therapy patient. It's like support around the therapy patient.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:38
So there's like so many levels of me just not knowing what the hell I'm doing and I've just been desperate to like. At first I was like, oh, the startup world, you know they're all trying to get into these accelerators and VC funding and let me figure out what that's all about. And I was like there's parts of it that don't feel right and their advice feels weird. But I feel like now I'm trying to please them or trying to fit into what they want from me, and then like the same thing over and over again. I'm like, oh no, they don't know what they're doing either, and no one knows what they're doing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:16
I'm alone, I am. I'm like there's no summer camp. I like I'm too old for summer camp now. Like now I'm like on my own and there's no grown up over me, it's just me, you know. Like it's terrifying, yeah, I mean I don't know where I was going with that, but just like it's. It's been a weird, it's been a weird experience having to come to terms with that. Come to terms with, like, what do I want?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:42
to terms with like what do I want? I'm always amazed by entrepreneurs Like I just don't. I just straight up. I wouldn't know the first step to take, like and yeah, I. So whenever you, whenever you text me like scared about this ring, it's just about I'm like yeah, I know, I don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:07
I don't know what to say. I would be. No one knows. That's a secret, no one knows. It's just that certain people like certain, like straight white men, like the zuckerberg and, you know, adam newman, what I'm learning is that they don't know more, they just like are more comfortable acting like they do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:15
Guys kippy's obsessed with adam newman right now. I am obsessed, I've I spent.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:19
Like my co-founder came in and hung out for the summer, for like part of the summer, and we watched, like the social network and the we work founder adam newman, like the documentaries and the shows, and then we also watched a little of the you know, the super pumped, the uber ceo, and it's just, it's fun, because it's just kind of like this like vaudeville, like variety show of like hardcore narcissists that just were like, yeah, I'm the future. You could get on board with this vision or be left behind. I am it. And they, they are running on empty. They have zero idea what they're doing. They're just like shooting from the seat of their pants.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:59
Like I just forget that mark zuckerberg started Facebook because he was just trying to make a website rating women for hotness in his school and then stole the website idea from you know other people and then was just like, yeah, well, I made it better. So you know, like I was like, oh, these, like gods among us, are just like. They just don't know. No one knows what they're doing. They just have confidence in themselves and somehow delusional confidence in themselves and I'm like, okay, here I go.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 41:32
I gotta be like them, like the scam artist, like them oh my god, scam owners seem so happy, you know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:39
They're just like yeah, I know what, I know what to do, I know what's up. Like you seem really happy with that, whereas I'm like am I doing it right, do I know? I'm like doing I'm compulsively signing up for other clinical trainings, even though we have probably the most clinical training of all the people in the world. And that's that's me being like the narcissist, trying to be like the narcissism, like I didn't know what to. We know what we're doing when it comes to psychology, and yet I am right now finishing another certification process for a different kind of clinical work. Which one? Why? Craft For loved ones of people with substance use? Well, at least it's relevant. Yeah, it's very relevant. But, like everything I'm learning, I'm like yeah, I know this already, it's wrong with me. So that's how I am this year.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:33
Maybe if I'm just a little bit more legit, if I just know a little bit more then I'll have the confidence to just go and kill it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:39
One day I'll be like finally, I've arrived at age 40. Phd, Anyway, hamster wheels, Am I right? You are right. The other thing I wanted to mention about this past year is that something that I've learned? First of all, I've like dove in deep into marketing and trying to get into social media. If anyone's listening, please go to Cool A mind on Instagram and please follow me because I'm working so hard as a 39 year old cancer survivor trying to figure out how to make reels.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:13
Thank you very much. People no, I'm not guilting people. I'm straight up bullying people into following me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:21
Okay, as a cancer survivor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:28
Okay, yeah, that's a little there.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:29
We go a little guilting yeah, you're right, using all my methods. If cancer's taken so much you can, it can give this you can follow me yeah, you follow me.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 43:35
Um, so I've mostly been learning social media to kind of do market testing and really get an idea of what people want. And how am I really? This is my new skill I'm trying to learn and obsess about how do you distill what we know, like all of our knowledge? How do we distill it to like a 30 second reel where you have to capture people's attention when they're brain rot, scrolling on the bathroom through funny memes, right, like that's actually it's a really important part of marketing these days and it's so. It's actually such a hard skill that I am trying to learn to capture it to be like I have to make you care about validation of.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:28
I'm just talking about like kind of making a reel out of like I said it was like my, your POV, your husband's exploding, exploding in anger, drinking more and going down alt right YouTube channels and going down alt-right YouTube channels and I didn't know that that was a derogatory term.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:49
I'm such an idiot because I just got that term from the women who told me that this was a day, so I just wrote it and I got like like that reel went viral because there were so many people on opposite sides. There were liberal women who were being like like mad that I wasn't more critical of these, of these men Right, because in my caption I said something like we got to support each other, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, how could you say that? And then I got a lot of conservative men who were like, well, I would, I would also drink if I, if my wife, looked like you or you. Liberal women are the idiots who are. This is this is why I'm depressed and like you know all sorts of stuff. And I was like, oh, this year I've learned that men and women do not like each other.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:33
Yeah, yeah, I want to do. I want to do an episode. I read this book called the tragedy of heterosexuality and I want to invite the author on to be a guest, because this is one of the points she makes. She's's like what is up with heterosexuals? You guys seem to hate each other, like really hate each other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 45:51
Yeah, look on anything on on social media which is like how everyone is learning about. You know the social, you know the social vibe is like how do you get rid of talks? How do you? How do you get rid of toxic? How do you? How do you spot the signs of a toxic man? How do you break up with a toxic right Like spot the enemy and get rid and annihilate them. How do you basically get a high value man to want me? Right it's? It's like this competitive, hostile view of dating and partnership and men and women now are struggling with mental health issues completely alone. Right, I feel bad for how many men have like written hate comments on my on my instagram.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:36
But but like legitimately saying like I am struggling, I'm depressed, I'm angry, I feel like used and I feel like women just blame me for it, and I'm like, yeah, that sucks, like that. But then when I say that like, oh, it sucks, then I get a bunch of women's like how dare you condone abusive men? And I'm like, oh my God, like can't win, like it's just.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:04
I mean, that's just, that's just something that really shocked me I mean you, because you had that earlier post and we've talked about it on this podcast, about that post, that where you talked about all right, but now you have a second post that literally just says like men are struggling, this is so sad, we need to help each other. And the comments on that they weren't even against you this time, they were just against each. It was like men and women warring in the comments. I was like our society is burning down.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:29
Yeah, I'm going to link to those posts on this episode, so in the show notes. But yeah, the comments were like all. No one was like women have no empathy. I was like all of them and like it's men's fault that they're depressed, let them fix it. They messed up our society. I'm like I get that point and also, like you know, we would want them to help us, right, it's just?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:57
it just is so sad. Which men did this and set up their society and set up patriarchy, like the ones that are born today, like look, I mean, everybody participates in patriarchy and, yes, it causes lots of problems. It also causes problems for men, but we can't say that because men set up a system that the men that exist within it are like like like jason, my partner did not design patriarchy, alex, your husband did not design patriarchy Like we can't be like, well, fuck them because they designed patriarchy. It's like no, they didn't. They were born into the system and then participated in it to the extent that, like, they were raised within it. Right, like all of our cultural norms and values, they keep constructing patriarchy as it goes along. But no individual man was the designer and architect of patriarchy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:51
Yeah, but you could say that a lot of them benefit from it, and that's also just like silently, and that's that's part of participating it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:58
Yeah, and like yes, we don't know who to point the finger and say you're depressed, is your fault, right, and it's like and even so, even if, like, like you know, our husbands or our partners are like the ones who made patriarchy, once made patriarchy, like, made the handmaid's tale and you know what is it? Galliard, galliard, galliard. Yeah, they made whatever like, what are we gonna do? Do Like I just it's my point.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:27
It's my point. Saying that they designed patriarchy is not a helpful comment. So they designed patriarchy, so they should suffer. That's not a helpful comment.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 49:34
Right, and what do we do about it? Like I don't, like we talked about another episode that humiliating each other is not the way right. We just get angry at each other, like being like men and their toxicity, and I hate them and all of you guys need to feel sad about that. I mean, I understand that that trauma would lead to those feelings, but then all the men are like screw you, you know. Then they get mad, right, so it's like I don't think that's effective to fight oppression with more oppression.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 50:04
Right, like I don't, I don't know I'm, you know I'm waiting to get heat for this too, but I just think I and I literally I am really in a bind here because we say on this podcast and it's truly what we believe that our loved ones, our social network, have great impact on our mental health. Right, like if my husband were mean to me or didn't validate me or, you know, was like whatever, didn't support me, I would be depressed. But then also to say that he's not responsible for my mental health right, and to tell, well, you know, in Kula Mind, we're helping loved ones know what skill like, get skills and education to support their partners, let's say, with depression or mental health issues right. So if I'm helping, let's say, women whose husbands have an alcohol problem, and I say you're not responsible for their drinking, it is not your fault. You're not the only ones to fix it. And yet here are skills to support them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:10
Yeah, I know, it's like it's, it's a nuance like it makes sense to me, but it's a nuance thing that's hard to communicate, because once you say, hey, if you validate their emotions they might be less angry, but then you're also not responsible for their anger. Tricky right, cause and effect is really confusing.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 51:28
Yeah, no, I mean a thousand percent. The sense of responsibility in relationships gets played with by both partners too. Like look, I mean, if Jason were a dick to me, it's not. Like I would say to him you know what, it's totally fine because it's my responsibility. I would say to him you know what, it's totally fine because it's my responsibility to not be affected by what you say. So you do, you and I. My responsibility is entirely. My mental is entirely sorry. My mental health is entirely my responsibility. But also like I was made to be responsible for a partner's mental health and that was not fair either.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 52:04
Yeah, and I think that I think the challenge is that we are trying to as a society, we're moving towards polarization and black and white thinking. Yeah, I'm totally at fault for everyone's problems, or it's your fault right, you're toxic. I'm toxic, you who's toxic? There's's one toxic person, but actually it's like way more nuance than that.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:29
Yeah, and it's hard to talk about that that we like a toxic dynamic has two sides to it, right, and yeah, and one person, one person in that dynamic can be lovely and also can still be a participant in what makes it toxic. So I don't know, it's, it's tough, um, so anything you are looking forward to exploring in season six?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 52:57
lots of stuff. Um, I'm excited to explore the outcome of our manifestation that we did last true episode. Are you going to feel financially secure and am I going to feel like cool mind is growing and you guys can directly affect that by? But anyway, um, I'm excited. We, you know, we haven't delved as much into alternative um treatments for mental health that are emerging, like there's a lot of exciting new things in AI and psychiatry and like psychedelics and ketamine and you know, just like all these different forms of mental health treatment, like supplements and gut health, and I'm, I'm, I'm just and there's some disorders we haven't covered yet. Like we haven't really talked about schizophrenia yet. Yeah, so, yeah, a lot of cool stuff we could talk about.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:50
So I'm excited to talk about AI because of course, I'm terrified that it'll take away my career, but it's that conversation seems to be like evolving in really interesting ways and you've been involved in that conversation in ways that I haven't so love to hear from you about that. It is so funny that we still haven't done a psychiatry episode.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:11
We've talked about it for literal years. Um, we just, we've just been really picky about the who we want us to get.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:15
Like we could probably you know there's a lot of psychiatrists, you know, but we were like, oh, we have to get the right person, so we'll find someone that we like a lot. Yeah, but please, if you guys have suggestions, any kind of curiosities, we've done so many episodes based off of your questions and suggestions, so very much value that and yeah, I think I think that's it maybe for for today.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:42
Yeah, if you, if you do have suggestions, there's at the top of the show notes. There's like send us a text, you click that and send us a message. That feature doesn't let us respond. So if you want us to respond, email um kibby k-i-b-b-y at coolamindcom k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom. Or go to um jacqueline's instagram at trombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:04
I might change it to at Dr Trumbelina, just because it makes me look good. Yeah, one of those two.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 55:11
Fully. Get in the show notes, so you can get in contact anyway.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:14
Alright, guys, we'll see you all in about a month and a half for season six.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:21
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