Ep. 164-Interview with Dr. Elsa Friis: How Parents Can Tackle Taboo Topics Without Breaking Connection
Are you avoiding talking to your kids about topics that are just...awkward? In this episode, I chat with Dr. Elsa Friis, clinical psychologist and VP of Product at Alongside, to unpack a practical way to tackle taboo topics (sex, porn, consent, screens) without burning the bridge you’re trying to build.
Dr. Friis takes us from a group home with twelve boys to community-led parenting programs in Kenya, showing how cultural humility changes results. Warmth, respect, and safety are universal, but a mismatch in how love is shown fuels conflict. We dig into concrete tools: visual schedules that calm bedtime battles, shared calendars that grow autonomy, and “ice cream chats” that make awkward feel doable. We outline scripts for starting the sex conversation early, framing online exposure without shame, and setting boundaries that still invite honesty.
We also explore how technology can extend, not replace, human care. Alongside for Families uses an AI wellness coach to help parents and youth practice tough conversations, build study plans, and share the right info at the right time. Teens get a private space with clear safety rails; parents receive high-level summaries and immediate alerts for risks like self-harm.
Resources:
Dr. Friis is giving Little Helpers a free 30 days to Alongside with the discount code FRIEND30! Try it here: https://www.alongside.care/family
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Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:00
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey hello helpers, it's Dr. Kibby here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you love. KulaMind is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries. Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamine.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click get started. Thank you and enjoy the show. Welcome back, little helpers. We have a really exciting guest today. Her name is Dr. Elsa Friese. We actually went to grad school together. So we were in the same cohort in grad school, the three of us. And she's here to talk to us about how parents could talk to their preteens and kids about sex and other super uncomfortable taboo topics. But we're really excited to have her. She's a licensed clinical psychologist and a career has focused on how to use technology to expand access to family-based support. She is currently the VP of product at Alongside, where she led the development of a recently launched AI wellness coach for parents and youth called Alongside for Families. Welcome, Elsa.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 1:25
Good to see you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:27
Nice to see you too. Oh my God, Elsa, so much to catch up on. We were just like little baby first years trying to go to our classes, and now we're here trying to make businesses and AI. And I feel I still feel like I don't know anything. How about you?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 1:43
Every day. Every day is an adventure. And I think it's part of that is just like, you know what? We're gonna keep trying. We're gonna keep pushing. And I think that happens a lot though when you're innovating in the field.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:54
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Which is exciting. Before we dive into all your work at Alongside and AI and all that stuff, tell tell me again about how you got into parenting work. Like who are you? What did you how do you deal with kids?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 2:10
So my first job out of college was actually working at a group home where I lived with 12 boys from ages 8 to 18. And so this was really my first insight into you know what it's kind of like to be a parent at the time.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:29
Wait, you lived?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 2:30
You lived at that or you worked? Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you just worked there.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:34
No.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 2:34
That's crazy.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:35
No.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 2:36
Wow. Okay. Right next door. It was great. You know what's really fun is when kids decide to throw things at your door at 2 a.m. Really. So fun. So much fun. Um, but yeah, I lived and worked there um for a little over a year. Insight into how important it is to think about our family supports. Um, how do we provide that kind of wraparound first? So I was a uh academic success coordinator there. And so I was really looking at how to help these kids achieve, go to college and achieve academically. Um, but really most of my time was really about the relationship, providing structure, support, stability, and got me so interested into kind of taking a public health lens towards family parenting and mental health and academic outcomes. And so that inspired me to go back to grad school first to get my degree in public health and then the PhD with you in clinical psychology.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:42
That's awesome. That's awesome. How did you end up going doing um intervention work in Africa? Like, how did how did that happen? That was so cool. Like I remember you were like, well, we're all sitting there in Durham, North Carolina, doing, you know, running our studies in these basements. You were going to Kenya.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 4:05
Building out positive parenting and family-based interventions in Kenya. And I think sometimes the universe just puts random things together. I I really wish I had this beautiful story or answer about that. Um, when I started at Duke, I got connected with Dr. Eve Puffer, who's an amazing researcher that had done a lot of positive parenting and family-based mental health work. Um, and she had also been working in Kenya for about 10 years at that point. And I had done an internship in college where I was working at an orphanage in Tanzania. Always wanted to go back to East Africa. And so it was kind of that weird matchmade in heaven, and I didn't really seek it out. And all of a sudden, we spent 10 years working together, building out positive parenting programs, violence prevention programs, and family therapy interventions.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:58
So cool. Tell us about the programs because, like, what does parenting look like over there? And what what did you do to help? You know, you're just like a you're just like a white girl coming from a you know elite American university. Like, what do you have to say to this very different culture?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 5:16
Let me tell you, I messed up a lot. Um, I thought I knew things, I do not. I still don't know things. And I think, you know, doing that type of work, you learn a lot through experience, unfortunately. And, you know, what I had to really learn is how to approach that work with a lot of cultural humility and really do community-gauge partner-based work, which is something I've even taken into my like how I view my work right now. But really starting in without judgment, parenting might look a little different. So, a great example is um corporal punishment is very common in East Africa. And there's actually been studies that show that corporal punishment within a culture or society that it's normalized is not actually, it's not necessarily effective, but it's not as harmful as it is in cultures where we don't have normalized corporal punishment.
Speaker 2: 6:17
Interesting.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 6:18
So it's kind of taking all that data, that insight, but really just creating relationships with the people when you're there and trying to help the community leaders really guide that work. We started with an anthropological look at how um Kenyans really defined positive parenting and family relationships, and what was negative about parenting and negative relationships within the family. So we started there and then built out a program that really focused on kind of building on the strengths that they saw in their community and um mitigating some of the risks or concerns that they saw in their community.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:01
Like what? Like what is considered positive parenting over there versus negative in ways that we wouldn't what like what's common and what I'm I'm trying to understand, like what do we have in common with them and how different is it to parent over a completely different culture?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 7:15
So this is a great question. So I would say over there it's a little bit more authoritative parenting, right? So how you show respect is a little bit different than how probably we would define showing respect as a child to a parent. Things that are the same. We love, we get hurt, we want to feel connection, right? We want that nurturing relationship. We want to know that we can mess up and it's not gonna be the end of the world. Like that safety, that security, that positive attachments across all cultures. It just looks a little different, right? And so I think of even my own family, right? So on my mom's side, huggers, right? We show love through hugging and warmth and all of that. My dad's side, no, like basic communication, maybe gifts, you know, it's just different. So we can have that, even if we are from that culture, that variation. And so you see that across the world, right? Um, and so some of the work that we did was, you know, saying, okay, well, how do parents show warmth to their children? Right. And children, how do you want your parents to show you warmth and understanding? Because what we typically find is it's not an issue unless there's a mismatch, right? The kid's not feeling accepted from the parent, or the parent doesn't feel like the kid is, you know, respecting or having a strong relationship, however, they want to define that. So a lot of the positive parenting programs we do is really just about family communication. How do you share what I want, what I envision for my relationship, what I want from this relationship, what are my expectations? How do I define that as being a good kid or a good wife or a good partner? And one of the things we always do in training was when we are training lay counselors, typically religious leaders to provide this type of program in Kenya, we would say the first night's homework was always go home and ask your wife what, like, how would you like me to show you affection? How would you like me to convey to you that I love you, you're doing a good job, and you're a good partner, and you're helping raise our kids, and you're doing all the things I expect from you as a partner. And what is always interesting is I think even the people we were training would come back and be like, And so I think it's great that we have kind of understanding of different cultural norms, but also parenting and marriage is it it's a really unique relationship, and it really just comes down to the two people in the room, and that's what's most important.
Speaker 2: 10:33
That's so cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:35
Um, when we're talking about communication, I mean, even as you're talking, I am picturing what it's like here. And as a parent, it's it's interesting to compare us to cultures that are very authoritative, you know, authoritarian authoritative that are like the parents have the respect and is their say and everything like that. Here, I think, at least as a parent, I don't know what that balance is anymore. Like it seems to have tipped to like the kids having the control and power, but then that leaves us being really scared and like, how do you how do you open up conversation and how do you tell them what to do, but also respect their feelings? So, like, what are you seeing here in terms of like the communication breakdown in families?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 11:24
Do you beat a parent? So hard. It's so much harder than I thought. I mean, I think parents, day to day, they hear 17 different things, right? No, you should do it this way, you should do it that way. No, you don't want to upset your kid, you don't want to upset it, like there's so like there is nowhere, I think, where there is a judgment-free zone for parenting right now. Um, you know, one of the things I do see that is a kind of a big challenge is when we aren't as structured in our parenting, when we don't have kind of the clear guidelines, the rules, X, Y, Z. A lot of times it works for a long time, to be honest. A lot of times you might just have a compliant kid. Other times not. Sometimes on like day one, it's just nope, right? That's your it's not your kiddo.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 12:18
Boys.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 12:19
Boys, right? Um, but I feel like we kind of fall into the cycle or trap, right? That my first one's gonna be, my second, my second kid's gonna be the same as my first one. Or, you know, I don't want to do this because this feels harsh, but then later on, kind of the cycle that tends to happen is if we are not proactive, we become reactive. And the reactivity tends to not to be harsher than actually the proactive rule or structure or boundary that we would have set if we had set it earlier. Does that make sense?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 13:00
It does. Can you give can we give an example of what kind of boundaries parents either struggle to like add in or you really wish that parents like did more of?
unknown: 13:12
Gosh.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 13:12
I mean, there's a lot, but you know, like there's just so many.
unknown: 13:16
Yeah.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 13:17
You know, I was just talking with this about my uh with one of my colleagues who was a little little. And so I was like, you know, something that we do for kids who struggle um with ADHD or just kind of following rules or multiple steps is we make a chart, right? First we're gonna brush our teeth, then we're going to, you know, do this, then we go to bed. So kind of that chart, I'm thinking for littler kids, right? Of this is our routine. This is a strategy we talk about all the time with kiddos with autism or ADHD. That chart is for the kid, but it is also for you. And I think that's what we forget sometimes. Because for me as a parent, I now have a tool that can be like doop, doop, and I might just want to like run away, leave the room, throw something, but I can muster enough to just point to the chart. Point to the chart. And so it's kind of those proactive structural tools that even if you have a kid who doesn't struggle with nighttime routine, you know what? One day they're not going to do it well. And it is easier to point to a chart than to in that moment be like, crap, this has been working for two months, and now all of a sudden, we're not doing our bedtime routine. What how do I fix it?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 14:52
Okay. Getting really specific about the thing. The chart, it just has it, it just points out like what exactly you're gonna do, or is it does it have times? Do you like what do you put on this on this chart?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 15:04
Yeah, so developmentally, um, if it's a really young kid, can't read. We're just going to have basically a schedule that is pictures, right? We wake up, so we maybe have a little sun. Then we have, for example, if your child has a little hard time when um you or your partner goes to work, you have a little dad leaves for work, right? It's kind of adorable. We eat lunch, so we just have a little sandwich. So that works for our little littles. And then for our um students as they grow older, right? This might become more of a weekly schedule. So Mondays we have practice at this, you know, and then we're just writing out here's everyone's schedule and where everyone is going. I know that seemed really, really simple. Um, this is one of the things that I learned working in a home of 12 boys. Like we had an entire wall that I painted and made into a chalkboard and just made the schedule, right? And as we want kids to take more autonomy and um build self-efficacy around managing their own schedule, we start to have them fill it in. When are you gonna do homework? When are you gonna do sports stuff? X, Y, Z. But think about that all the way moving to college, right? When they're going to college, one of the biggest issues kids have is no one's telling me what to do. So I'm gonna procrastinate and put it off, or I don't know, have fun. I had a lot of fun in college personally. But um, those are kind of those tools in the toolkit, like basic scheduling that can help your daily home life run easier. But then your kid goes off to college and is like, okay, well, I should probably figure out when I'm gonna study for that first college exam. So I don't think that's really cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:07
I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna use that chart idea. I mean, it's like my my son's three, so it's just, but it's just chaos. Like it like he goes to sleep. Like I just kind of lie in his bed and hope he falls asleep, you know, being inspired by my sleepiness, and it doesn't work, let me tell you.
Speaker 2: 17:22
So that's that's interesting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:24
I like the try I like the chart with a little picture idea. Um, I'm terrified of having to, I don't have to deal with this yet, but you have to get into the area of preteens and adolescents who are like I mean, even the thought about them going into puberty was already terrifying enough. But then you have like the world of porn and all the internet on their phones, you know, if they have phones, I don't even know, but like how you were you were saying before about how parents have a hard time talking to their kids about these topics like sex.
Speaker 2: 18:00
What at this age in time, like what do you do?
unknown: 18:06
That's a good question.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 18:09
So some of the most recent data shows that kids are exposed to sex porn on the internet as young as five years old. Right? I know five to seven years old. It's terrifying. So, one, I mean, first and foremost, I just have to say, please watch what your kids are watching. And it's impossible. But it's impossible, like it is impossible. It's impossible because they go over to a friend's house, even as little littles, right? As a six-year-old, you're going over to a friend's house who has an older brother who has a phone who's, you know, showing them whatever. So it it happens, and I think step one is accepting that that is the reality. We can't just hide our head in the sand and say my kid isn't going to be exposed to things I don't want them to see on the internet. Um, so my my funny story around this is when I was working at the boys' home in Baltimore, I had a one of the kids accidentally texted me a sexually explicit photo he meant for his girlfriend. And so I'm like laying there, and he's literally, I slept up on the same floor as the other boys, and I was like, oh lord, this is not good. But it brought up the reality that this 14-year-old was probably having sex, and I'm the one who needs to talk to him about it. So um, you know, we don't always have the luxury of being forced into this. Um, I think that was a good like rip the band aid off. Um so some of my tips are one, you know, when we avoid topics, we are communicating to kids that it's not okay to talk about it and it's taboo, right? So even if we start to say, you know, you might be exposed to some of this stuff, you know, this is for adults or whatever really aligns with your personal family values, even simply saying out loud that you might be interested in this or you might see something about sex, or you might, you know, be exposed to it, your friends might show you, um, sends the communication that it's okay to talk about it if I have questions or concerns. Right. So what how do you bring that up?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:43
That's so awkward. It'd be like, hey, have you seen any dick pics lately? I mean, what do you how do you start that conversation with your kid?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 20:51
Literally, you just have to. I I wish I had it. It's gonna be awkward. I mean, par parenting is a lot of doing things that like, mm, this is awkward and weird and hard and and so you know, I have some families who give kids books, right? Um, especially going through puberty. I have um families who are just gonna say it awkwardly, writing notes to each other. Um, you know, one of my favorite things um that I've seen done is actually like sharing kind of this like journal to myself, to journal to my younger self, right? When I was your age, I started feeling this about boys, girls. I didn't know who to ask. I'm here, like I wish I had someone that would ask me about it. So this kind of like flipping the script where you're being vulnerable and opening up about like your own experience tends to really resonate. Most kids are going to go, ew, that's the worst thing I ever I never wanted to know that about you is so gross, right? Like that's gonna be a response. Yeah, so this is one of those topics where you are um like it will be short-term awkward for longer term training. And even when I was working um at the boys' home, you know, I had a kid who came back and said, you know, I gave a talk to him, the boy in question, and all the other boys. I made sure it was very clear you could talk with me about it. Something that we did was, you know, we kind of had a ritual where Fridays was we went to Rita's ice cream, and Rita's ice cream time was like awkward conversation time. So have your ice cream, have a treat, make it as pleasant as you can, get them out of the house, like make the setting as good as possible. And then it's like, great, we have ice cream. Now it's gonna get real awkward because we're gonna talk about things like comedy and sex. And but you know, I had a kid come back later and be like, I I really appreciated that. Like it was, you know, this was 10 years later, but you might get that as a parent. It just is a lot of delayed gratification. Um, but that's also a lot of, you know, the reason that we created alongside for families is there's hard topics, there's things that it's not always a one size fits all, right? How you talk, especially about sex, like talking about sex, it's so personal to your beliefs, your values, your end goal of what you want your child, how you want your child to think about it, engage in it, not engage in it, grow up, you know, to get married, not married. So individual. And so one of the things we do in alongside your families is help parents come up with those scripts for awkward moments, right? And it can be like, here's what I want to say, how do I say it? And so we help kind of craft the way that you want to approach it, what you want to say, and we'll even role-play it with you to help you feel more comfortable. And I always say, don't ever expect to do anything hard without feeling sweating a little and feeling a little awkward. Like you're it's not always gonna be easy at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: 24:47
It's awesome.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:48
Tell us about Alongside because you have this unique perspective into parenting and kids because now you're you're you're serving like thousands and thousands of them. So tell us like what alongside is and like what what does that what does it get give you window into these days?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 25:07
So Alongside was created a little over three years ago. And for the past three years, we've been working predominantly with schools and educators to provide kind of that tier one first-line wellness support um through schools. And so through that, we have had the opportunity to work with um hundreds of thousands of kids, which is so incredibly exciting. And so our goal at Alongside is we use a tiny bit of AI magic to help guide conversations around building skills for um academics, for friendships and social relationships, um, for getting better sleep and actually getting off your phone. And it's basically, if you want to think about it, as kind of like taking our old therapy worksheets and having it delivered in a really interactive way. That's the best way to describe it. So after working with schools and kids for three years, um, you know, we got a lot of pressure to actually say, like, great parents and families could really use this. This is actually a great tool to help expand reach and help improve communication because I can help the parent and I can help the kid as well. And so as kids grow up, as you know, every day is a new day and a new challenge, and things change real fast or real slow. Um, kind of depends. It's always the things you want to change faster that just, you know, linger, right? So we want to create a product that really kind of grows and moves with the family. So if you have younger kids, you're gonna get parenting support. But as kids get older, we have a parent side and a youth side, and they are connected. So if your kid is bringing up anything around suicidal ideation, self-harm, depression, anxiety, anything, we're gonna let you know. But otherwise, they have a little bit of that private space to kind of figure out things on their own. Because what we hear from kids as they grow older and enter into their teenage years, they they don't want to hear it from from parents, sadly, right? And unfortunately, developmentally, that is normal. It is the most annoying thing as a parent. Because one moment you have a kid who's listening to you and thinks you're the best things in sliced bread. And the next minute you have someone who's like, You're dumb. I don't want to listen. And they can literally hear it from anyone but you. And so we want to provide is you know, kind of that safe space for kids to explore, to talk things out. We surface high-level summaries of what the kid is talking about. We immediately alert you if there's a big issue. And then, for example, if they're talking about, you know, stress for studying for an exam, we're gonna let you know as a parent. And then the parent coach side is going to actually give you tips on how to support your whatever your kid is talking about. So how to do that study plan or how to make new friends if they're feeling isolated.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 28:38
That's really cool. That's really, really cool. I love that. Ooh, that's awesome. What do you what do you what do you find that parents or kids like to talk about the most? Like what is the common topic of like, oh, I, you know, kids are like wanting their parents to know, or what what what goes on in the app?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 28:59
So I think something that's so surprising is what we hear from kids is like, I actually kind of want to share this with an adult, but I just don't know how to. And you know, I grew up where I had a really close relationship. I was really lucky. I had a really close relationship with my mom. And I really I have a close relationship with my mom. And for those kids who don't feel that, they want that, but they just don't know how to put it into words. And so we have kids who are saying, I'm exploiting my gender identity. Like, how do how do how do I actually say that to an adult? Right? Like what should come out of my mouth? And so sometimes where we are really coming in to support them is we Use a little bit of AI magic when they are super stuck. We say, Hey, why don't I just summarize this to you? And you can just click a button and it'll just text your parents. Right.
Speaker 2: 30:11
Ooh, cool. Yeah.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 30:12
So when kids are really stuck, we make it real simple. When they're like, hey, I'm struggling with this test, you know, I probably just need to tell a teacher. Like, and, you know, we're like, okay, well, write them an email or go in, like, you know, when can you do it? So we really operationalize and get into the nitty-gritty on how they're going to have that conversation. But we don't, you know, we don't give them the complete out of just emailing their teacher for them. Right. So we meet the kid where they're at and try to take one small step. Cause I think a challenge that we can run into is I want my kid to be completely independent in seeking out support or doing this X, Y, and Z. And they're like running away, screaming from doing that task. Like there's a lot in between there that we need to help facilitate. And so to move towards independence and kids doing things on their own and building self-efficacy, we have to be able to say it's okay if there's baby steps in between.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:22
That's so cool. How do you how do you deal with when you're saying gender identity make me think of sex and and so many of those topics? How do you deal with like if you're if you're an app across the country and you have all these different beliefs about sex, premarital sex, about let's say like abortion, about dating, right? Like, how do you how do you coach kids or parents through those conversations, knowing that there's a lot of different family values going on?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 31:58
So in schools, we have to abide by certain regulations and state regulations. And so honestly, there are different versions of the app based on the state that you use it in.
Speaker 2: 32:07
Wow.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 32:08
Yeah. So um on the our kind of direct-to-consumer um side, dealing with families, um this is where we really lead with kind of this person-centric approach. And so um we lead with kind of a strength-based approach, um centric approach, where we're asking you, we don't give advice, like it's not GPT where you're just typing in, how do I do this? So even if I go in right now and I say, How do I talk to my kid about sex? Right, I'm not gonna get a GPT answer that's like, here's 17 ways you could do it. It's gonna ask follow-up questions and it's gonna say, What do you want to say? What's your goal? How do you want to have that conversation? Like, what do you want to share? So we are getting all that information from you rather than kind of that top-down approach of let me just give you the Wikipedia on that.
Speaker 2: 33:10
Right.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 33:11
And that I think is so much inspired, right, by me working in different cultures. So I deeply know and understand that these are really personal decisions and we are not here to have judgment on them. When we are gonna have judgment is when we know something is harmful, right? We're gonna be like, no, no, no, no, that might not be the best way. Um, if we do think it is harmful, but otherwise it's really guided by the user and their beliefs.
Speaker 2: 33:43
That's interesting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:45
What about the the idea of harmful is as you said is interesting. And coming out of grad school, we were like, oh, okay, this is this is harm, this is trauma, this is abuse. And now that we're kind of in like a new era, those definitions are really murky right now. For example, like, how do you deal with I feel like just basic disagreements or not seeing eye to eye can be described as harmful because it's hurtful to people, right? It's like if my mom doesn't understand or my kid is not listening to me, like this is dangerous, right? Like they're getting out of control. How do you deal with like really big differences in opinion or um say emotional behavior that could be abusive? Like, what do you do with that? How do you how do you determine what abuse is on the app?
Speaker 2: 34:46
Sorry, that might be a hard question.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 34:47
I was just like, Well, I mean, this is this is what keeps me up at night.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:51
I mean, this is yeah, because you do and both ways too, because I'm also hearing parents who are like, what do I do? My kid is like freaking out, but they're like throwing things or hurting me, they're screaming at me, they're you know, and I'm like, ooh, like, what do you do with like an abusive, dysregulated kid?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 35:08
You know, it is so true. I yes, that is always the like I might not show up as my best self if you're trying to run into traffic, right? Right, right. That is, and surprisingly, Kibi, I'm sorry, like I know your kid's young and three, but um 14-year-olds will try to do that too sometimes, and you're like, come on, guys, come on, can we just like not try to find ways to kill ourselves like accidentally?
Speaker 2: 35:38
My god, I thought that was just a Tyler thing, but no, no, great, sorry.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 35:44
Um, so I think a lot of what we're getting into is kind of this really gray area that I actually think is so important to dive into because there isn't a right or wrong answer, right? It's we need to follow as psychologists, we need to follow our rules and principles and ethics by the APA, right? And other organizations out there, we need to follow the research, we need to follow the data, but there are many times where we don't have the data or the guidelines on where that exact definition is, right? And so this is something that comes up because as far as making that really tangible, for us, we currently err on the side of things might be harmful and we will let parents know if we are concerned. So here's an example is um an R safety system. If a kid just talks about, you know, I'm really having really, really dark thoughts, I'm listening to like this song and it's making me feel this way, and I'm wondering about the end. Like the kid could just be in a moody, like like a mood and listening to some great music that I personally love to listen to growing up, and like that could be perfectly developmentally normal, but we're still gonna alert the parent and say, hey, like, you know, just checking in. This could be normal. This could be actually a fine coping mechanism. I know so many teens love to listen to like dark angry music when they're upset, right? It kind of helps you self-regulate, it feels very validating. Um, and then um otherwise, you know, you should check in um with your child because we don't have the information. So I think one of the things is when we're doing tech-based interventions, that is a part of a larger system of support. I don't ever think that the tech should be completely alone. So for me, it's about how do we build a product or how do we navigate this and trying to connect you to those in-person resources or that second layer of support or a different support, so that it's never just one place you're going to for support, one piece of advice that you're getting, um, or one perspective that you're getting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:30
Yeah. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Um God, I was even just let's say, you know, you're mentioning if they're having like, you know, self-harm or this kind of dangerous behavior, but what about like kids who go, okay, I might be having sex or exploring it or seeing porn? But if I tell my parent or my parent gets any wind that this is happening, they're gonna freak out, they're going to shut off everything, they're gonna come punish me. So what do you do in those like the with those taboo topics that might actually like flare up problems? Like, what do you do you keep that private for the kid? Do you do you what do you do?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 39:12
Yeah, so that actually kind of goes back to some state-based rules. There are state-based mandates, right? Um if a kid is a certain age and having sex with a different age, um, we need to alert because that is actually in some cities considered abuse or rape. Um, even if it is consensual per the letter of the law, that is an inappropriate sexual relationship. Um and then um a lot of times what we are going to do is so think about this when you've had uh someone coming into therapy who says that to you. How would you respond in a therapy context?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:57
God, like don't tell your parent. Don't don't do it, just and stop it, you know, just stop it. Yeah, I mean, I I guess it's I I guess if if if it was the kid, I mean, for either one, it's tough. Like with the kid, it's like, you know, let's let's talk about like how to tell them and what would be the benefit and what not and like and I don't know, but it's it's tough if like the kid is doing something dangerous. They know that if they tell the parent, the parent's gonna freak out. And so I don't know what either side, because the parents are like, oh, we want to, yes, I want to talk about everything. But like the reality is if they say, if like my 13-year-old son was like, I'm having sex, I'm gonna be like, oh my god, you know? So, and I'm thinking like as a therapist, I would do one thing, but as a parent, I don't know.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 40:55
So I kind of bring that up because this is not a new issue. We've we've had people, parents, like your friends' parents who might have told this, or your coach, your teacher, your counselor, the social worker, your therapist, right? But adults are actually constantly put in that weird position. And so this is not something that's exclusively a challenge when you move to like a tech-based support, right? So the challenge is real and everyone is gonna have slightly different opinions. Number one, we're always gonna assess and say, like, okay, so your parents are mad about it. Are they gonna hurt you? Or are they just gonna be pissed? Right. Because if some child is worried that, you know, their parent is going to beat them, then that is a very different situation than my parent is going to be ashamed. It is okay for parents to get upset at kids, and kids, it is okay to feel ashamed. And that is something I think is missing in a lot of our parenting. Relationships suck sometimes, like they really do. Like, I don't know how else to say it. And so what we're gonna try to do is say, you know what? You kind of have some options here. Gonna tell, like, if it's bad enough, we gotta tell your parent. Right? If you're in danger, we gotta tell your parents. How do we tell them? Do you want to take that responsibility or do you want us to take that responsibility? And so something that we've seen is around 80% of the time in the app, if you present it as we want you to go talk to your parent about this versus like this is gonna get sent. We send it anyway, but it's a little secret. If it's dangerous, we have to, but it's about getting a little bit of buy-in for the kid to say, I might have some ownership right over this. How do we talk about it? Great, let's roleplay that conversation. So, in therapy, this is much easier when the person's in front of you. Moving to a digital format, it's really challenging and it's not always perfect, to be honest. So you have to kind of have a hierarchy. Is child safety more important than them being pissed? And this is where you know, something like an off-the-shelf like GBT, Claude, they're always gonna capitulate to, well, I don't want to do that because that's scary. And that's where the difference is, right? Is yeah, it is gonna be a hard conversation and the parent is gonna get alerted. If it is a safety concern, they're gonna get alerted. But what can we do to kind of help in that process and help the kid feel ownership over sharing that?
Speaker 2: 44:17
That's super cool. That's really cool.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:21
What um what do you guys dream of with this? You know, with like alongside, or even just in general, your work with with families is if there's like a dream of gosh, I wish I could wave a magic wand and the like parents do more of this or families do more of that, what do you think is the thing that you would want?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 44:41
I think I can go to so many outcomes, but what it goes back to is kind of that communication, right? I hope that this is actually like a digital tool for in-person communication that actually leads to tangible, like in the real life sense of relief. Um, because you know, I think back um, you know, I think back to some of the things that could be like so silly that I look back on that felt like so big when I was working back in Baltimore with with kids. Like I couldn't get this one kid to like put on his seatbelt for the life of me. And I was like, we're gonna get I can't like and he said he would, and then he'd like unclick it very quietly. And I just like remembering that right now is making me kind of sweat because it's that like visceral, like, I don't know what to do. And this is like a seat belt, like we aren't even at the hard topics about like school or sex or what you want to do with your life and career and like all that stuff. Like, this is those little things I really hope we can help parents feel more empowered about. And then on the kids side, I hope that you know, we are helping to do that kind of two-way communication, but also for them to really start to build that their own self-efficacy, their own sense of empowerment. That life is hard socially. Kids are really struggling right now. So if we can have any kind of impact on helping them make those real world connections or feeling a little bit more prepared or a little less anxious about the hard things that life throws at us, like that's what I really, I really hope for.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:36
That'd be awesome. Wait, are kids even having sex? Like as as we were talking, I was like, yeah, I mean, we are we are dealing with kids who like are you know, or were in COVID, who like don't, you know, we're getting rates of like they're not having sex, they're not doing drugs, they're not driving as much, thank goodness for all of it. But also, like, is like secret sex a problem, or what what's wrong with kids?
Speaker 2: 47:05
Really? Okay, well, that's a problem.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 47:08
I mean, I would say that um I mean I don't have the exact quantifiable numbers. You know, I think some of the more severe things that we have helped um kids with. Um I think of one story I had um a sixth grader reach out on the app and say, there's a seventh grade boy who's going into the girls' bathroom and groping me. And I don't know who to say. Who like who do I talk to? Right? And so we were able to alert the school, we were able to parents and get that resolved. So I don't have the exact numbers, honestly, around how many kids are um engaging in sex and um how that's kind of shifted. I do know it has shifted a little bit. Um, but what I do know is that kids are experiencing really serious concerns. And so I think of one kid that we have supported who is a sixth grader who opened up on a long side about um a seventh grader grouping her in the school bathroom. And so that's an instance where she wrote in, like, I don't like, I don't really want to go walk into the counselor's room and say that face to face. So I want people to know, can you tell them? Yes, 100%. And so that was an instance where immediately we're alerting the school counseling team, they're letting the parents know they're ensuring this kid is safe, they investigated, they had multiple kids who were being harassed sexually by this other student. And um, we're able to remove the kid from school, and he's actually been charged by the police.
Speaker 2: 49:10
Wow.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 49:11
Wow, but that's such a powerful case of like what you guys can do or and what technology can do. You know, like I think that there's so much stuff about how technology or apps or whatever are like bad, or like there's a lot of distrust, but it's interesting to hear that this is a really good use case for how it could be helpful, where it's like a kid doesn't know, like wants to get help, but they don't know where to turn. Wow.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 49:41
I know this is wrong, or I know that I'm like having some scary thoughts about harming myself or someone else. But like, how do I put that into words? And I know that we live in a tech-enabled world, but even when we didn't have tech, it was still hard to go face to face to a person and be like, hi, I just want to let you know that this is happening over here, or I feel this way. That is a human thing. And so if we can use tech for good in that instance as an on-rant to getting them the support, then I am I am all for it because I I truly don't think that um, you know, if we didn't have the tech, we've tried really hard to make other ways, in-person ways for that easier. And it it it is hard. It is hard.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 50:41
Amazing. Um where can people find alongside or you or any resources to help talk about the the the naughty topics?
Dr. Elsa Friis: 50:51
The naughty topics, you bet. So um you can find us alongside for families, it's available on the app store. You can also check out our website, which is alongside.care slash family. Um, and we are also offering a promotional 30 days free. And so we'll put that info in the podcast notes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:16
Yeah, we'll put everything in the podcast notes. So thank you so much, also. This is such a good conversation. And I it's so cool to hear what you guys are doing alongside. I didn't realize that this was like this was the how it was working, and that's so cool. I just you're awesome. I love it.
Dr. Elsa Friis: 51:32
So good to catch up.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:35
All right, little helpers. If you want to secretly tell someone in your life about a topic or, you know, want to open up conversation, send one of these episodes to your friend or loved ones, um, and leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast, you acknowledge that the host of this podcast makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information purposes only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of any medical or any professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The host does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast. And information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. Thank you.