Ep. 162- Interview with Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: Parenting Young Adults Through Anxiety, Anger, And Algorithms
What if the “problem behavior” you see- anger, anxiety, avoidance, endless scrolling- is your kid’s way of shielding against something deeper? In this episode, I chat with Dr. Marcus Rodriguez, director of the Youth and Family Institute and tenured professor at Pitzer College, about what parents can do when their young adult children struggle with adulting. We dig into when these young adults hit a wall, their nervous systems recruit anger, anxiety, and shame to avoid the pain of “I can’t.” Understanding that function changes how we respond at home.
With DBT expert Dr. Rodriguez, we unpack why this generation can be deeply caring and also overwhelmed by information designed to agitate. From algorithm-driven feeds that reward outrage to climate fear and economic uncertainty, young people face a flood of threats their brains aren’t built to regulate alone. We talk about wild cases of kids getting trapped in upsetting content loops and what media literacy and parent coaching can do to break that cycle.
We translate big ideas into everyday moves that you can use with your kids today. If you’re parenting a teen in their room, a college student off-track, or a 20-something stuck in avoidance, this conversation offers a practical, hopeful roadmap.
If you need more help knowing what to do to help your children struggling with emotions, join KulaMind.
Resources:
Dr. Rodriguez provides family DBT through his clinic in Los Angeles, Youth and Family Institute.
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Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:00
Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey little helpers, it's Dr. Kibby here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you. KulaMind is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries. Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamine.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click get started. Thank you and enjoy the show. Welcome back, little helpers. We have a fan favorite guest, Dr. Marcus Rodriguez. He's been on the podcast before. He's a DBT expert, especially in families and young adults. So I'm so excited to talk to him about this topic today. He's the founder and director of Youth and Family Institute. So if you're in California and you have a youth or family that needs mental health support, check it out. And he's also the director of the Global Mental Health Lab. He's also a tenured associate professor at Pittsar College. He was raised in Mexico, lived in China for nine years, and has traveled to over 90 countries. He gives therapy and training in Spanish and Mandarin. So he is more Chinese than I am for some reason. But he is also my older lab brother. So we have the same uh advisor, Zach Rosenthal, a Dr. Zach Rosenthal in at Duke. So we've been really good friends for a long time and just constantly learning from you, just constantly. So I am so happy to see you again. Super glad to be here. Super good to see you. Marcus. Um I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic today because I have been in KulaMind, we've been getting people reaching out who are parents of young adults, like parents of teens up to like in their early 20s, and they don't know what to do to help their kid. Their kids are non-functional. They are they're struggling with emotions, maybe they have some kind of substance use, they're in their room playing video games, you know, maybe not have a job or go to school, or something, something is interrupted with their career path. And the parents are like, I don't know what to do to help them. And this is driving me nuts. So I wanted to ask you with all of your family and parent coaching knowledge, like what, first of all, like, have you seen this too in your practice? Or is this like something that I'm just seeing?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 2:50
Yes. I think what I see is that what parents describe as the problem is, in fact, the problem for them. It's that like my kid is really angry, they're like engaged, they're aggressive, they're just like so quick to conflict, or or their problem is that they're anxious and they're avoiding everything and they're abusing substances and they're hyper-controlling their calories or they're binging, or they're, I don't know, just like ruminating all day, seeking reassurance, engaging in obsessive and compulsive, obsessive thinking, compulsive behaviors, or they're just like, or or they'll say, like, my kid is just like has super low self-esteem, they're constantly beating themselves up, they feel so embarrassed. And the parents will say, that's the problem. And I think where they get it wrong, and why we're seeing more and more of this problem, is that they're missing that like those things are how the kid is coping with their problem. That's not the problem. That's like they're using these behaviors, not using in an in a in a way with awareness and intention, but that those behaviors function when they are at one extreme self-harming, using drugs, you know, yelling and throwing things, threatening aggression. Those behaviors help them to regulate their secondary anxiety and anger. And that secondary anxiety and anger and shame is protecting them from feeling helpless. But the real problem from the kid's perspective is that they're sad. And it's so hard, like parents oftentimes don't see that. Cause like I don't see a sad kid. I see an angry kid, I see a kid with low self-esteem, I see a kid who's super anxious all the time. But but those are behaviors that are regulating those secondary emotions. And those secondary emotions are protecting their kid from feeling out of control. And they're out of control when it comes to being thinking, having this sense of agency that they're going to be able to get their needs met and their needs, that's the sadness. Like sadness doesn't mean that my kid is tearful, that my kid is lamenting what they don't have. Sadness just means there is a gap between what I want and what I have, and that something important, whether it's meaningful relationships, a meaningful career, that's missing. And the hope that I'll have that is missing. And my repeated efforts to get it has led to failure. And when that happens again and again, that repeated effort to get what I need, even if it happened at a very young age, if it got blocked, invalidated, if they were just unable to meet that need, then almost just like Pavlovian conditioning, there's like sadness fires as a signal saying, go get that. They try, they get blocked, they get invalidated, they get, they're just unable, and then they feel helpless. And again, sadness blocked, helplessness, sadness, blocked, helplessness. And just like Pavlovian conditioning, right? It's just like bell, meat, powder, saliva, bell, meat, powder, saliva, until eventually sadness and helplessness are fused. Feeling helpless is horrible, horrible. And so then anxiety says it's okay, you don't have to feel anxious. You can instead, you don't have to feel helpless, you can feel anxious instead. You can avoid and prevent things when you're anxious, which means you don't feel helpless. And then they engage in all those anxious behaviors. Or anger comes in and says, you don't have to feel helpless, you can feel angry. And when they're attacking and defending themselves, they don't that regulates their anger, but they need that anger because without it they feel helpless. Or shame comes in and says you don't have to feel helpless. You can beat yourself up, you can convince yourself this is all your fault. The the inability to have and make the types of relationships you want, to fill your life with the types of activities you want, it's all your fault. But if it's all my fault, then that means I should be able to snap my fingers and make it all go away, which means it is in my control. So I'm not helpless. So shame. And that's what's going on for a lot of these kids. And and parents are digging in to try to solve the the really what's like their kids coping how they're coping with the problem. But the problem is they've just got a lot of sadness and they're not expressing it directly, and they can't stay with it long enough because it's been paired with helplessness.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:24
My God. That was so well said and so spelled out and so devastating. So many questions. Can you give me an example?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 7:32
What is an age?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:33
Like, give me an example of like, are we talking to like middle school, high school, like like a 17-year-old or a 20-year-old, you know, like the the kind of I think I think I'm I'm just interested in like what does this look like for that transition between I'm a kid to okay, I'm about to go to college or an adult. I'm I'm I'm seeing a lot of like issues there. And I'm curious if you're you know, if you if something comes to mind or a typical scenario.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 8:08
Let me try to anchor this in like a few clients.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:10
I'll fuse them together so they're in, you know, not mostly because I feel like the parents of these kids tend to feel really ashamed, right? Because uh they they they'll say, like, oh, all my other friends are kids are like uh competing and going to this cool college or getting this job. And so there's like, I don't know, there's some there's something about the emerging adulthood that is like ripe for this problem.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 8:34
I think what it looks like in the kid is, for example, a lot of parents will say, my kid has terrible executive functioning skills. They'll say, like, my kid forgets everything, loses everything, like can't manage the most basic responsibilities. And as a result, the kid starts avoiding engaging in things, right? Because it it just gets associated with failure. And so the kid is in fact not trying things, they're not doing or the or the parents would be like, I'm I've been trying to tell my kid to get a driver's license for a really long time. I told them they can have our Jeep if they get a license. And the kid like won't even go get a license, and their Jeep is rad. Like they have like a lifted Jeep, and the kid won't, or then they'll be like, I don't even know how to motivate my kid. They'll be like, I told them, like, if they will, you know, if if they will make up that class that they failed last semester and do this online math class that I will send them and their friend on a trip to freaking Cabo, and the kid won't do it. Like they're trying, or they'll be like, I told them I'll get them the new iPhone 17. Like, I will do whatever. It's so important for me that this kid. And so they'll they'll call it executive functioning failures, they'll call it laziness, they'll say, like, my kid is just not interested in anything. All they care about is, you know, watching Dodgers and memorizing all the statistics about the game, or all they care about is if they're, you know, um, is their makeup or or or just like being on their phone scrolling endlessly. That's it. Um, so yes, parents will generally describe their kids in these ways, and those are in fact their behaviors. It's just those behaviors are how their kid is coping with feeling really helpless about getting their core needs met. And and and so, yeah, so it just looks it looks to the parents like OCD, because the kid will seek lots of reassurance from the parents. Like, why do my friends not like me? Do you think this is a weird text, mom? Can you read this? Like, what do you think? And I I think my friends hate me. Do you think my friends hate me here? Like, look at this. Um, and and yet what it really is is that that is secondary anxiety trying to rescue them from feeling helpless. And what's actually happening is I don't know how to fill my life with the things that I care about most. And maybe I don't even know what I care about most anymore. They've just practiced avoidance so much. They've practiced interrupting that sadness with and that helplessness. They've they've interrupted it with anger, and they're just so quick to anger that there's it's hard to be curious as a parent or as a loved one of what someone needs when they're yelling at you. You like you're not gonna be like, oh, tell me, what is this need that I sense behind your yelling and cussing? It it just they they're not gonna get that need met. And so it becomes a vicious cycle where the ways that they're coping with feeling out of control leads to more feelings of out of control because they're still not going to get their needs met, what sadness is pointing them to.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 11:59
So fascinating. Is I mean, is there any truth to this? Like, is then is this next generation screwed? Like they're they're like on on the on the less clinical uh side, I'm like, yeah, as a parent, if a kid is not like doing their homework or doing all the things, I might be like, well, back in my day, we would just figure out, like, figure out how to make how to you know get a driver's license. Um, is is it just like something something in the air or something going on in our society? I just like kids.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 12:39
No. They they are as on the whole, they're the most compassionate generation. They are like they are so caring. I feel like in my generation, we were so judgmental of differences. This generation is accepting they're less judgmental, they're more caring. They care about things that I didn't even know existed when I was their age. Um, problems that I didn't even I couldn't even conceive. And so and also this generation is aware of like work-life, like of like work-life balance and and and they're mindful of what they don't have but need. And therefore, if you know, like I I can't just like I think boomers and Gen X and even to some degree millennials, like when we get really sad, I think we just turn to like lots of work. I feel like this generation is more compassionate on the whole. They are more accepting and understanding. They're less likely to say, Oh, I have a problem. I'm just gonna power through and become a workaholic to cope with it. They're just like, this job makes me really unhappy. And I don't see a scenario where it does make me happy, so I'm just not gonna do it. Like, kids today will wake up and they'll be like, Am I gonna go to school today? But like, that's never a question that I ever asked. Like, I never had a day where I'd like to wake up and be like, Am I gonna go to school today? But they're actually just trying to figure out like, is this going to help me get my needs met? No, I don't think it is. So I'm not gonna do it. And I think that brings about helpful changes, or it can potentially. So I would say, no, this generation is not screwed, but they do have challenges that other generations didn't face. And I don't have like a comprehensive list of those challenges, but they have so much information. Like they like January 6th was terrifying for me. And I'm like 45 years old. I was like, oh shoot, like, is our democracy gonna collapse? Or like, or, or, or there's all these people on social media talking about like why we need Bitcoin and because our currency is so unstable and our economy could crash, and we need this external source of. I I think they're so aware of the problems and the threats, like global warming. Like, I didn't, I don't think I ever saw a picture of like a polar bear struggling to like find the next piece of ice to stand on. Like these kids have those images like burned into their hippocampus. Like it's so tricky. It's really, really challenging. Like they're like watching bulldozers knock down the rainforest in Peru and Brazil. And like, I don't think I even knew exactly where the rainforest was. I think that these kids just have so much information now, and yet their prefrontal cortex is not fully formed yet. So they don't even know how to regulate all of the like sadness that that brings up to watch a massive bulldozer knock over hundred, you know, trees that are hundreds of years old that sustain, you know, hundreds of animals that that live in this ecosystem. And I think that they just they're facing problems that they are in fact helpless to do anything about. And so they have more sources of sadness and the problems they're facing because they're so massive, they do feel justifiably pretty helpless to do anything about most of those problems.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 16:28
God, that's terrifying. I mean, it's so funny to think that parents, like when I think of like a teen or a young adult getting sucked into like TikTok and what that does to mental health, I would assume that it's not about like getting to know current events or world um, you know, world changes or anything. I would think, oh, they're just gonna watch like stupid, like brain rot content. But it's like, yeah, I guess if you have a compassionate group of kids who are way more emotionally aware than the previous generations, and on their phone, they're seeing horrible things happen on a daily basis. And I will say, the more I learn about tech, the more it's like social media is designed to stress you out because rage bait and upsetting content is actually way more engageable. Like people engage in things that are upsetting. So it's going to be like the algorithm is going to favor showing you horrifying things. And they're sitting there on their phone looking at it with nothing that they could do about it.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 17:36
And not even understanding how the system works, right? Like I had a client who later learned how the social media algorithm works, but she already has some like OCD tendencies. This is like a kid in middle school, and then like on Instagram, they would there would be like a video of like someone's dog dying. And then it would show like the person like holding their dog like on those like surgery table at the veterinarian's office, and then look, and there's like sad music and they're like crying and saying goodbye to their dog. And so then my patient likes the video.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:15
Oh man.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 18:16
Right? She likes the video. And and and then there's a part of her, because one the very first time she saw a video like that, it said, which is so messed up, the video said, if you don't like this video, or maybe I don't know if it said this or if she believed this or understood it, but she had this understanding that the video told her, if you don't like this, then something like this might happen to your dog. And so then, so again, I can't imagine there was actually a video that said, like, like our video, or some, but so probably.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:47
No, it definitely did to get to the viral post.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 18:49
That's horrible. So this kid, this kid likes the video because she's like, I don't want that to happen to my dog. So then the algorithm's like, oh, you like dying dogs? It gives her another one. And she's like, Oh shoot, I have to like it. And then another one, oh shoot, I have to like it. And so so in the end, this is I'm laughing. It's horrible. Like it's like it's not funny, right? This kid's entire social media stream was dying dogs.
unknown: 19:12
Right.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 19:12
And this kid is like horrified. She's she's all at once feeling so sad and all at once feeling like so helpless, like just like hating, like feeling so anxious, thinking, oh shoot, I've got to like this. I've got to watch it all the way to the end. And I have to follow them too. I can't just like it, I have to follow them because they asked me to follow them. And if I don't follow them, something bad might happen to my dog. And she doesn't even understand why this is happening. Later, right? Like when she got into like high school, actually, it was in our session that I explained to her how the algorithm works. And she's like, oh my gosh, that makes sense. And she was able to like break free from these videos, constantly feeding. Well, she actually had to like uninstall, she like stopped using like Instagram. But she was able to take it back up later when she understood, oh, that's how it works. But like, even just that, like there's so many rules that you have to learn. Like growing up is hard. Like, I you have to learn, like, when you wash your feet, also wash the I'm literally teaching that to my daughter. Like, she'll she'll take a shower and she forgot to wash the bottom of her feet. And then she wipes the bottom of her foot after her shower on the white towel, and it just leaves this, like you're you're like learning all these things as a kid, like constantly learning, like, oh, don't forget to soap the bottom of your feet, like floss and brush your teeth, and look people in the eyes when you greet them. Like, there's an infinite number of things that these kids are learning all the time. It feels like when you move to a new country and you're like becoming oriented to their culture, but that's just the experience of a child every day. They're constantly learning the rules. Like when you're done with your towel, hang it up. Don't leave it in a bunch on the floor, right? That's like a rule of life. Like we're teaching them and they're constantly learning. But now, in addition, like, and they're also learning the rules of socializing, of like connecting with people. And then what happens is there's these really, really complicated, unintuitive algorithms on these social media platforms, which is like the best way that they can connect with their friends because now all millennials and Gen X are so anxious, they don't let their kids actually just like go out and hang out with their friends, right? So, like our generation is freaked out. Like, none of our kids are like out there getting hurt and breaking limbs on bikes because their parents were like, I'm not gonna let you do that. But in our generation, like all the time there's kids like messed up because they would do like we would make like jumps in our backyard, and they were just like super dangerous. And our parents would be like, Oh, it seems like a bad idea, but like good luck.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:57
Oh my god. I didn't think about how awful that is for young people, and I think it's it it is so interesting because so much of their like socializing and connection are mediated by these these like companies like the meta and the you know TikTok and everything like that. And they want to your goal is to connect, but their goal is to get you to pay more and what and stay on the app, right? So they will they will like feed you things to get you to stay on the app. I actually heard recently that the all the dating apps are their algorithms are shifting to matching you with people that you wouldn't actually match well with.
Speaker 1: 22:43
What?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:44
Just like hot people that you would date, but not actually fall in love with. Right, because then you keep coming back to date. You won't actually just oh, that is dark.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 22:55
That is just like so. I know, and and and and I fully believe that, but like also that's wild.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 23:04
Yeah, so if you're dating on the app and you were like, I can't find love, it must be me, right? Like this is this is inserting a company in like the most personal form of connection. You're like, why am I why am I striking out all the time? I'm I guess I'm unlovable. It's like, no, because you're only seeing people that you would never fall in love with.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 23:25
That's and like horrifying. Yeah. And then there's all like in my mind, I'm thinking about my young adult patients, and I'm like, oh my God. Like, I need to tell them that. I need to go tell them like this makes so much sense.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 23:39
Yeah. And and anything on you see on Instagram or TikTok, all the things that are like comment or like or whatever, they they it's manipulating you to engage, which means that their content is pushed out further, which probably feeds back to getting them more money. Like, right? It's just it's growing an account, it's advertising something. So yeah, this it's just interesting to think about like the from the perspective of young people trying to understand how the world works and they're learning through systems that are just designed to make money off of you.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 24:19
And this generation learns about the system that they're learning from at a super young age. Because there are some really, really brilliant TikTokers and Instagram, whatever influencers who can explain what you said really concisely, really clearly. And now they understand, oh my gosh, this dating app doesn't actually want me to find love. It just wants me to keep using the dating app. And then it just cultivates the cynicism that is realistic, by the way. Like if you feel cynical, after hearing that, it's like, yeah, but that's not like that's not pathological cynicism. That is just a real view of the world where where you are the product, your attention, your time is what they're fishing for, and they can see that clearly, and then they're distrusting and they just feel like there's no point, right? Like, what was it? I saw this quote, it said, like you're closer, like it said, like I everyone needs to be reminded, you're closer to being unhoused than you are to being a billionaire, right? And that's true for like almost the entire planet's population. And there's these little nuggets of truth that are just like out there, and these kids get exposed to that. And if they really reflect on that piece of information, they're like, wait, that's like fully true. Like, I'm way closer to being unhoused than I am to being a billionaire. And that's there's just information like that out there that has been made so attainable. Like now people take what used to be a seven-minute lecture and they have to crank, crank it down into 30 seconds, and they really can deliver. Like, I've learned how to do my taxes online. Like, honestly, like I've learned how to like open a business online because you know, they have they've just condensed information to make it so consumable. And these kids are consuming this information and it's too much for them to take in, and it's cultivating helplessness, it's cultivating the sense that I'm out of control of getting my core needs met, which then necessitates these secondary emotions. Like unless, unless they have a super attuned parent, a parent who can who can validate their experience, co-regulate with them, soothe them when they can't regulate themselves, while also teaching them to like hang up the towel, not throw it on a bunch in the floor and it gets mildewy. Like that's it, it just requires like it's so hard for the parents too. I just want to I I think it's important to acknowledge it's that these parents are trying to teach their kids all the things, like look both ways before you cross the street, and like don't take candy from strangers. Yeah, like all those things. And they're also trying to help them figure out which of these emotions are primary and you need to do what the emotion tells you to do, and which of these emotions are secondary, and you actually just need to manage that emotion by acting opposite to that secondary anxiety, that secondary anger, that secondary shame. It it is more challenging as well, I think, to be a parent when your kid has access to information that you don't have. And I think that's that's new. I think like back in the 80s, parents knew more than their kids, almost all of the time. Not always, but almost all of the time. But now that these kids have these devices, some of them getting them in elementary school, there are some areas, some things that their kids just know so much more about. And some of those things lead to justified cynicism, fear, a sense of helplessness.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 28:14
In a minute, I'll I'll ask you like what parents should do about this, but from the perspective of parents, what does the world look like to them? For example, like when you're saying like dealing with all these emotions for parents who are like, I don't do emotions. What what parents are trying to do is make sure their kids are doing doing the things that long term will lead to a successful life, right? Like go to school. Like even if you wake up and don't feel like it, go to school because your grades will get you to college, will get you a good job. Go get go to a good college, right? They they're looking at these long-term goals for career and life milestones, but you're saying that the kids are not seeing those long-term benefits, and they're focusing on like, does this feel good to me today? But what what long-term goals do they have? Like, what does the world, what do they want to do with their life? Like, what motivates them to go to school or to possibly get a job? Or I just because especially when you said, like, oh, we're closer to being unhoused than to be a billionaire, actually online on social media, you're seeing a ton of influencers who are like, yeah, I'm 22 years old, I'm an influencer, now I'm making millions of dollars. I don't even go to school. So the future goals look, I don't even know what the world looks like and what kids are striving for these days.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 29:40
Yeah. I do think that it's really helpful for parents to take a dialectical view of the problem, meaning like a flexible view, not a dichotomous all or nothing view around, for example, since you mentioned education, that there are a million ways that their kid can grow up. To be healthy and well adjusted. And going to school is one of them. It's not necessary. Going to a good college is certainly not necessary, right? Like you and I went to like a good school for grad school. You went to good schools for all the way through. You know, you go, I went to a good grad school. But like we know people who were there that were like really, really unhappy. And I've been to schools that aren't super good. And I see kids that are super happy. And I think parents know that in their wise mind. It's just hard to hold on to that truth. I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that parents need to do is to trust that, like to be curious, to slow down when they see their kids anxious and angry and full of like what feels like unjustified shame or shame that is or sadness, sorry, anger and anxiety and shame that are just disproportionate to the situation at hand. When they're seeing that, I think what they can do is to get curious about like what is my kid's need right now? Because I think this might just be how they're coping with not getting their need met. And it's not as simple, the younger the kid is, the harder it is because it's it's not as simple with the young kid to just say, Well, what is it that you need right now? I see you, you know, engaging in this angry behavior, this anxious ruminative behavior, this shame hiding behavior. And I sense that maybe it's these behaviors are protecting you from feeling helpless and you feel helpless about getting your needs met. What are that? I think if you ask that question to an 11-year-old, they're just gonna be like, I need you to not be an idiot, Dad, right? Like, they're not gonna be able to answer that question. But for us to be asking that question even so, and curious and collecting the answer over time, because I think that the answer is the same answer since like the beginning of humankind. It's that like, what is what are our core needs? It's that we want to fill our lives with meaningful activities. That's happiness. We want to fill our lives with meaningful relationships, that's love, right? And so sadness is saying there's something important missing in my life. And when you boil it down to its essence, it's that what's missing are meaningful activities, i.e. happiness. What's missing is meaningful relationships, i.e. love. And I think you can start with these broad categories as parents, but when the kid is telling you, like, I really need, and then they're telling you, like, I have to have my iPad, you know, or or the kid is saying, like, I have to have, I have these like young kids, these are like kids in their 20s getting like preventative Botox. I don't know, like they're getting, yeah, like, and they're like, I have to have this. Um, that beneath that is a core need, likely. And if the parents can get, can not react, which is so hard to not react to that initial response, then it allows them to stay more curious and figure out, like, yes, I know in this moment that's what you want. And I'm trying to figure out after I regulate my own emotions, why it makes sense and how I can help you have more clarity about your core needs, hope that you're going to get them, meaning agency, so you don't feel so helpless in the face of those needs. And then do what I can to like collaboratively problem solve and try to get you as much of those things as possible, which is meaningful activities, i.e., happiness, meaningful relationships, i.e., love.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:50
That's so awesome. That's so like powerfully said. What does that look like practically? Like, let's say, I mean, I'm seeing this already in my three-year-old, and I, you know, I see it with teenagers all the time where they go like, Mom, I want to play, you know, I want my iPad. Can I just can I watch some TV? I want to play Roblox. And then in that moment, you know, you they you could sense that they're feeling something. But then what do you say? Do you say yes? Do you say no? Do you get into the battle? Do you pause? Like, what does it what do you do?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 34:24
I mean, it's it just it's the variability family to family is too great to even answer that question. But I'll say what you don't do is you don't match their dysregulation with your own dysregulation, right? Like, if you are also dysregulated, which by the way, I say that and I'm like laughing because like I can't like I can't even do that myself consistently, right? Like when I see my kids like getting really, really dysregulated, it's so hard for me to be like, let me stay super zen and be really curious and be really validating. I don't, I don't know how to do that, but I know that that's the goal. Like it at the very minimum, it's like do no harm. Like, don't make a bad situation worse. Like it's gotta start there. And when we react to their secondary anger with our anger, now we're making things worse. If if we react to their anxiety with our own anxiety, so the kid says, I don't want to go to school today, and we're and then the parents like, what? What do you mean? What are you gonna do with your life? And then the parents start like, it's like, um, I would say step one is like, and and what does it even mean to regulate? I would say like start with your body. Like, like I I need to just like breathe in a way that's calm. I need my I need to notice when there's this tension in my chest, when there's like skeletal muscles down my spine that are tense. It's not even like I'm not like flexing my arms. It's literally that there's like muscles that are tight and I'm not even in control of them. I need to notice that and be like, oh, let me soften my back. Let me drop my shoulders, let me like breathe slow and steady. Like it starts with like calming my body so that I can maybe calm my mind, so that I can maybe regulate my emotions, so that I can maybe get curious about what my kid is experiencing. And then maybe from that come curious questions that help them figure out what their needs are, so that maybe we can together work on that problem and on increasing their sense of agency to get those needs met. Right? Like there's just there's so many maybes that like it's not just that the kid feels helpless. The parents feel like there's just too many dominoes in this in this series of events. I don't think that me slowing down, pausing before I respond and breathing is gonna fix it. The problem is too big. And I agree, like it's not that simple, but it's still a necessary starting point, is like don't match their dysregulation with your own.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 37:23
Love that. I love that. I what do you do then? I mean, that's easier said than done. I mean, I I you know, especially when the dysregulation is about like a thing in the day, like putting on socks or you know, TV or not TV, then it's like, okay, how do I regulate? But like, should I just give them the TV or you know, not but what do you do? This is this is a place where it's ripe for dysregulation in general, right? For getting upset when the kid pushes your buttons in a way that's like accusing the parent of something or projecting something. I've I've heard some people say, like, you know, when the I could tell my kid is upset about something or feeling shame or something, angry, and then they accuse me of something that I don't I didn't do. Like, for example, sending them a text about, you know, a question about what are you gonna do in school? And they go, Oh, you're judging me. You think that I'm dumb and you you don't think that I can do anything. And then the parents are stuck between like, uh, okay, I know I'm not supposed to argue against it, but I feel like I I want to defend and say, no, I love you. That's not what I think. But then I don't know how to like validate or or you know, like I don't want to say yes, your feelings are valid here. Um, and I also don't want to say no, you're wrong. So, like, what do you do when the kids are like, mom, dad, you you are ruining my life and you hate me and blah, blah, blah. And the parents are like, yeah.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 38:59
I think that maybe they can get curious about ways and times that they have done that. And while their current accusation of you being judgmental is not accurate, it doesn't fit the facts. But maybe what they're responding to is that historically you have. And so you as a parent could be like, what? I'm not judging you. I'm literally just trying to help you solve this problem. And yet you could also pause and be like, okay, that's fair. Because while in this moment I don't think I'm judging, I think your hypersensitivity to my judgment, I'm sure it doesn't just like it's not delusional of you to think of me as judgmental. And so, like, yes, I think I have been judgmental, which is why you're so sensitive to any sign of it. I don't think that I was being so just now. And yet, like it, and then you would like name a specific thing and be like, yeah, like that is true. Like, I have been judgmental about this thing. And so your worry of me judging you is super justified. I think sometimes kids will really, really appreciate that, right? There was this study done across the University of Michigan, the entire medical center, like the entire um hospital system where they decided for a year that they were going to tell their doctors that when they made a mistake surgically or in any sort of procedure, that they were going to directly express, I made a mistake, I'm so sorry, instead of like trying to hide it and be like, oh what? Like, I didn't, you know, do surgery on the wrong knee, you know, or like I didn't pull the wrong tooth from the wrong side of your mouth. And instead they'll just acknowledge, like, I messed up to the parent. And sometimes it's like it was awful because sometimes the the mistake cost them their loved ones' life, which is there's nothing you can do to make that come back. But but the family members would sue, of course. And so they were saying, let's try to engage in an experiment over the course of this year where we acknowledge our mistakes, we directly apologize for them. And so they did that, and their lawsuits dropped by, I forget the exact numbers. I can look this up and I can give it to you, but it dropped by more than half. So they um I share this all the time with my classes, but I usually have the paper in front of me to share the actual statistics. Maybe I'll send it to you. But it's this, it's this radical idea that we thought, like, no, if you directly acknowledge I in I made a mistake, and my mistake cost you the ability to walk, to see, or the life of your loved one, you would think, oh, now that you admitted fault, now you're gonna get the pantsuit off of you. But the opposite was true. There were fewer lawsuits because they know like this lawsuit isn't bringing my loved one back. But they also feel like you need to take accountability. And if you're not going to take accountability, if I don't see the remorse, like I hear so many stories in hospitals of where, of where the doctors will make, will will try really hard to save their patient and then they don't, and then they'll go and like cry in the you know back room. This is saying like show that to the patient. But now because we're talking about parents, I'm saying show that to your kid. Like, I messed up. It's not in this moment, because I don't think you're right. I don't think that I'm being judgmental, but I think that your sensitivity to my judgment fully makes sense. It does. And if we can, if we can start there and acknowledge that, like, for example, when I tell my daughter, like, whatever, like, pick up your towel, like, don't leave it on a bunch on the floor, it gets mildewy. And she'll be like, Why are you being so judgmental? I'll be like, I wasn't. I was literally just telling you, like, I was trying to teach you how that works. But then I'll pause and be like, no, no, like you're right. I have been consistently like very judgmental today. Almost everything I've said is a criticism, is teaching you, is correcting you. I I haven't even actually checked in with you today about how you're doing, what was the best part of your day, what's something new you learned. Um, and I can acknowledge, like I don't know what it looks like, but it looks like trusting that their experience makes sense and calming our own body and mind down enough to get curious about why it makes sense, so that then we can just try to solve the problem that your kid has, um, which maybe is that they feel overwhelmed. And so we say, Hey, you know, next time, like make sure you hang up your towel. And I even say it like with like like an apologetic, like, if it's not too inconvenient, you know, like please hang up your towel. Like, we're if if you want, but like also like I totally get it if you can't. So we're like trying to be like super gentle. And and if their reaction is really big to also say, like, I know that makes sense. Like, I imagine, like, I imagine you're feeling really, really stressed and don't fully have all the emotion regulation skills to handle that. And more importantly, you don't have the life skills to solve the problems that are gonna get your needs met. Emotions are just there to signal that there's this problem. But you know, maybe beneath that is that there's problems that I can't solve. And so we have to like teach them like, let's like watch that video together of the polar bear struggling to find a block of ice and be like, and just like walk them through like, here's how I try to do that, instead of like just saying, like, that's not important. Don't think about that. What's important is your math test tomorrow, you know. But like, if we're going to model emotion regulation and problem solving, then say, like, hmm, here's what comes through my mind when I see this. Here's what I'm thinking, here's how I try to work through these types of situations so that they can learn from us how to regulate, but also learn from us how to solve problems and get our help in doing both.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 45:29
I love that you're advocating for parents actually taking accountability. I feel like taking accountability is such a sensitive topic because especially with cancel culture and so much avoidance and shaming and good and bad. Um, I I believe that people are scared to take accountability because if they do, then they'll be seen as a bad person cut out, right? Like if in that moment, if I if my kid is like, you're being judgmental, you hate me, you're a judgment. And I say, Yes, you're right, I was judgmental today. I would be afraid that that'll be it. Like I'll have no other room. That kid will just think that I think terribly of him, and all of his fears and accusations are justified. But I love that you're saying that actually it might soften that rigid, like polarize, you are the problem. And it's like, oh, I'm a little bit of the problem. Not at this moment, but yes, you you are there's a kernel of truth in there. Yeah. Wow. So what are what are other strategies for parents to build the study?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 46:42
Sorry, can I?
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:43
Oh, nice, yes.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 46:44
Okay, so it's the University of Michigan's disclosure and offer program. So the hospital in 2001 implemented a program where they said, we're going to report errors, we're going to disclose them to patients and their families, we're going to explain what went wrong, we're going to apologize, and we are going to offer compensation. Right. That's that's the four elements of like an effective apology is like acknowledge what happened, say sorry, express remorse in some way, like commit to not doing that thing again, and then ask them what I can do to repair the harm I caused. So before versus after, the claims dropped from seven claims per 100,000 patient encounters to 4.5 claims per 100,000% encounters, 100,000 encounters, which is a 30% reduction in lawsuits. Oh, that's a 30% reduction in claims, but lawsuits fell by more than half. Costs dropped by 60%. And the resolution time got shorter, right? Like it's this idea of it's so counterintuitive. We think if I go in there and acknowledge like I made a mistake and we disclose that directly, like, yes, I was in fact having a judgmental thought. And even though I think my tone wasn't judgmental, I was thinking, like, why can't you just do this? I was, you're right. And that probably came through somehow. If not in this moment, it has in the past. And so I think, yeah, I thought that study was so interesting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:14
Wait, what hospital is that?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 48:16
Michigan, University of Michigan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:18
Wow, what a brave, amazing hospital. That is so, I would my first reaction was like, oh my God, no, they can't admit fault because that then they're going to be sued. But wow, that's really cool. That's really cool. What other what other things should parents do to help their kid along in the adulthood? Like, you know, when you have a kid who is maybe like college age or after, and you want to help them launch, you want to help them be self-sufficient, you want to help them be financially independent. I'm hearing a lot of like, do I keep paying my kids' rent or do I stop and let them be unhoused? Like, what do you say in those moments? I know it's different for every family, but like generally.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 49:21
See, I'm gonna go really vague. I think you want something specific, but I'm gonna go vague, and then maybe I'll try to bring it back to something specific. I think my advice is that to remember that most, like the vast, vast, vast majority of kids really crave their parents' acceptance and love. Like they just really, really crave that. I'm like 45 years old, and when I like post something online, I want my mom and dad to see it. They're not even on that. So I have to take a screenshot and send it to them in a group chat. Like, I just want their approval and love. And I thought I would like grow out of that. But like, I would say, like, one thing is like parents need to remember that your like your kid craves that, as you still crave that from your parents if you're mindful of it. And then do what you can to provide as much of that as you can to your kid and do the work that you need to do for yourself. Like, we have unmet needs, right? Like, what was it? I saw this um, I saw this really interesting quote. It said something like, it was like, oh, I want to find it because I I I just like I collected like memes online. And it said, I think it said something like, deal with your demons, or they're gonna raise your kids. You know, or something like that. It was just this idea of like, if you don't deal with your own, face your demons, or they will raise your kids. Right. And it's this idea of like we have these internal wounds ourselves. We have our own anxiety of like, is my kid gonna be okay? Um so like at one point I would say like managing our own, like getting our own corners, but that's like so vague.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:36
Maybe like what people also want is more concrete strategies, and I think for that I would say well, for example, I'm sure some parents would be like, Yeah, I am showing them that I care. I'm telling them to go to good college, I'm telling them to get a job. If I didn't love them, I wouldn't be pushing them this hard.
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 52:08
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 52:09
And I can, I can, you know, as much as we're we love emotion invalidating, like if my son grows up and is like a DJ dating his AI girlfriend, I might be like, son, I don't think I approve of all of your unless it's like he's a really good DJ and the AI girlfriend's AI girlfriend's really good. He's a really good daughter-in-law, like then I'd be okay. But like, I I I think I would have a hard time, you know, like proving everything they're doing versus like showing love is such a tough nuance because there are a lot of parents out there who's just like, I show love by making sure that they have a good life, even if I'm not nice, even if they don't like it, like if they don't earn a living, they're not gonna be happy. And that's that's the way I show love. So what do you do?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 52:55
It's true, right? Like, that's like what makes people happy isn't like having more stuff and gadgets. It's like having a sense of mastery, having a sense of like confidence that I can do things and make a meaningful impact on the world around me in ways that matter. Like that, so that is true. And then I would say try to articulate as best you can to parent to your kid, and just say, like, on the one hand, I'm torn. I just want to like give you all the stuff you want. And you're saying you just want to sit in your room and watch, watch iPad all day, and that will in fact bring you more happiness right now and less anxiety if you do that. And I believe, and this might be a faulty belief based on like my generation and how the world worked, but I believe that is not going to lead to ultimate happiness and really getting your core needs met, which is filling your life with meaningful activities and filling your life with meaningful relationships. I don't see this as a path forward for you. And so I believe that the most loving thing I can do is to push you out of your room, away from your device, and towards activities that are going to show you that you are not helpless, that you can handle defeat and pain, and that you are capable of filling your life with the things that matter to you most. And I believe you doing well on this math test is a part of that. I don't think that this math test makes your life good, but I really want you to know you can do this. You're not dumb. And I worry that your belief that you're dumb and that you can't learn math is going to haunt you for a long time. And I just need to squash that until you tell me that you are unwilling. But for now, I'm gonna push you as hard as I can while I can because I think that that's a really loving thing to do. Because I don't want you to walk away truly believing I cannot do this, because that will cascade into a number of other things in your life that you're gonna believe you can't do. I know you can. I want to work with you. It might take as many iterations, but I want to work with you to show you that you can. So I would orient my kid then. I would like, I wouldn't just say you have to do your math, right? You have to like try out for the volleyball team. I would say, I would tell them why I see this as being relevant to their core needs, or at least to undermining their helplessness that will one day then allow them to stay connected to their sadness long enough to get their core needs met. But you've got like you've got to explain that or try to explain that, even if it's to like a nine-year-old, you know. And sometimes you explain things through like just trying to come up with different creative ways to say that. But that's the message, is like it would be easier for me to let you just play on your devices, but I don't actually believe that's going to lead to long-term like wellness. And so for your sake, like I've just got to push you away from that. And I'm gonna push until you make it so, so, so clear that I cannot push you. And then I'm going to practice acceptance because you're my kid and I love you. And no matter what, I just want to be close to you. And I'm gonna try to balance staying close to you with pushing you to have the best life that you can.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:30
Like, I want Marcus to be my dad. This is so beautiful. For every parent listening, there the transcript of this podcast will be wherever you're listening to this. So you can just copy and paste all the beautiful message that he said, run it through ChatGPT and say, make this for my kid, and then just say it. And then you'll be you'll be golden. Um, Marcus, thank you so much. This was, I mean, I feel like inspired, I'm informed. I I feel like a lot less terror and helplessness as a parent because I think that a lot of parents feel like secondary or like vicarious helplessness. Um, how can families or um yeah, how can families or parents find you if they are interested in working with you or learning more about what you do?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 57:18
Yeah. I mean, I I I about a year and a half ago I started posting things on LinkedIn. So I like to write thoughts like this there. Um, and my website, the youth and familyinstitute.com, if they're looking for parent coaching, if they're looking for therapy for their loved one or for themselves, um that would be a good place.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:39
Is that just for people who are living in California? Are there resources for right now?
Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: 57:44
Yeah, we're just working with um folks who are we're only licensed in California.
Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:52
Sounds good. Thanks again. This has been wonderful and appreciate you coming on and chatting with me today. Yeah. All right, little helpers. If you want to help us with our core needs and want to feel agency and mastery, leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and send this to a friend who needs uh a few strategies to deal with their kid who's struggling. See you next week. By accessing this podcast, you acknowledge that the host of this podcast makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information purposes only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of any medical or any professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The host does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast. And information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. Thank you.